Quoting LogansGirl (Reply 88): The twist to what you're saying, 777, is the Christian message is twisted. The Jewish god was a tribal, jealous god. Christianity is based on that message while trying to give a very different message of love and peace. Yes there are a lot of Christians with very conflicting thoughts and beliefs. However, believing someone is going to some imagined place of torture for the rest of eternity is just a belief. As long as they care about that, they are likely to say it out loud sometimes. I understand it is a negative thought of ill will. Phelps is not having negative thoughts. He is making completely asinine comments and actions in a very loud way, which is rude and infringes on the civil liberties of others. If they think God hates everyone so much, why do they give a crap whether or not the Hated get it? God's still going to Hate, according to them.

The twist to what I'm saying really is that a lot of people take a lot of what's said in the Bible as allegory and metaphor, so they can put whatever spin they want on it. Consider that you're a middle-class, middle-aged loser with a wife you can't stand and kids you don't really like and a job you hate. How nice to know that by virtue of all these things you hate, you're going to heaven, whilst you condemn an unseen enemy. That's the mentality I think a lot of Phelps' followers have.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 90): There is a big difference in the Catholic Church's "Hate the Sin, not the Sinner" attitude,and the hate espoused by Phelps. Can the Catholic Church disagree with people, and not HATE them. I not only think they can they do.

'Hate the Sin, not the Sinner' is a cop out. Imagine if a religious group hated the fact you had a wife or girlfriend you loved, hated the fact you had sex with her, hated the fact you had kids with her. It hated the life style you lived, hated your 'agenda' and hated you holding hands, kissing and cuddling. When an organisation publically (and repeatedly) condemns something so intimate then the lines between 'sin' and 'sinner' are blurred.

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 93): But God sent Hurricane Katrina to punish New Orleans for its residents' sinful ways? Just further proof that Phelps is a nutter.

But why? God sent floods in the past to punish sinners, why not now? The Phelps have one interpretation on the Bible, but each church on Earth has another interpretation.

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 94): Only God can determine who will go to hell.

But the church decides who is condemned as a 'sinner' here on Earth.

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 94): Christians do not "wish" anyone to go to hell.

I'm not sure this stands up. God 'loves' us all, yet is quite happy to hide himself from us and allow us to commit sins (even create us with the ability to sin), then allows us to go to hell. God is in our image, so his concept of love can't be that different from mine. If I loved someone, I mean truly loved them, I wouldn't send them to hell for any crime, even if they didn't love me back. This essentially shows God's supreme absolutism, a trait which Christians should surely follow.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 96): why do you feel the need to pick on four members in particular?

They were the first four I found when I did a search.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 114): they aren't even considered as Christians because they practice hate.

Yet very few Christian churches condemn the message of WBC. If they're a hate group for condemning homosexuals to hell, aren't most Christian churches hate groups?

To those who claim Phelps' message is so different from mainstream conservative Christianity, consider this.
1) According to just about every Christian out there, sin is evil, especially conscious sin.
2) According to the Christian right, homosexuality is a sin, and a conscious sin at that (at least to those who haven't realized that gayness isn't a choice, which is a lot of people).
3) Ergo, even if gays are otherwise great people, in the eyes of the Christian right, they are committing evil acts, regardless of whether the individual Christian decides to love them regardless or condemn them, as WBC does.
4) "Mainstream" (aka right-wing) Christian theology holds that if you commit sins and do not repent of them, you go to hell.
5) Therefore, it doesn't matter whether or not gay people are forgiven by people, because humans don't do the final judging. If they don't repent and try to stop their sinning, they will be sent to hell.
6) In the eyes of liberal Christians, a loving God would not send anyone to a life of eternal suffering. The only thing that could motivate God to do such a thing would be hatred. Therefore, left-leaning Christians tend to perceive that fundamentalist Christians believe that God hates gayness, if not gay people.

If you don't think this is what many Christians, especially of the more fundamentalist persuasion, believe, please tell me where you think I went wrong.

Yeah with that kind of attitude why don't you hold your breath too.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 108): Falwell, Dodson, Robertson, Swaggart, and even friggin' Haggard are all on record of basically agreeing with Phelp's assessement on the Storm's cause. Point being-- how many "amen"s do you think were said after that, hmm?

Not one of them is from the largest Denomination in the US. They may be able to reach a large audience because of their TV shows and the like but that doesn't translate to a majority following.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 111): hate is not something that mainstream Christianity practices

Bingo.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 114): I can see how you notice a lack of clear condemnation of the WBC's views rather than the way they express them. However you must remember that they are considered as an independent hate group. Whenever I hear people objecting to them - they aren't even considered as Christians because they practice hate.

You forgot to add that Concodeboy's must remember that all Christians are not in the Phelps camp.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 115): Imagine if a religious group hated the fact you had a wife or girlfriend you loved, hated the fact you had sex with her, hated the fact you had kids with her. It hated the life style you lived, hated your 'agenda' and hated you holding hands, kissing and cuddling.

There is a religious group like that. They hate the fact that I can demonstrate the love I have for my wife in public. They hate the fact that my wife can drive a car, leave the house without a male escort. They consider her naked if she doesn't cover her face and her hair with a veil. It's called Islam, and the Fundamentalist version of it has actually attacked western countries because of this hate.

Now look and see how a minority of one religion reacts to hate. They act on it. They attack their targets. And the Majority says nothing, or barely nothing.

Contrast that with the tiny minority of Fred Phelps. And how the Christian majority attacks him, even on this board.

Concordeboy and 777236ER you don't like Christians because you think that they only hate Phelps because he protests funerals.

Fine. It's obvious no amount of reason will change you mind of that. However, when Hitler had to be stopped, people went to war. Some fought him because he was anti-communist. Some fought him because he was anti-freedom. Some fought him because he was anti-semetic, Some simply fought because he was going to kill them, or take their homes.

Point is the motives behind fighting Fred Phelp's hate isn't important. The fact that people don't like his message is. Right now you have Christians decrying Fred Phelps. That puts them on your side. People you claim who are anti-gay see just where that kind of thinking leads and are discussed by it. Painting those people as just as bad as Phelps will lose your cause potential allies.

I hate Fred Phelps Group and his message. It's disgusting to me. By lumping me in with his group simply because I don't agree with you, isn't going to make me agree with you, it turns me off to you message.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 111): I never said nor implied that, Concordeboy - it was a simple example.

might wanna read that one again, as I never accused you of stating nor implying anything

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 111): The message core, Concordeboy? What do you think his "message core" is? Is it simply homosexuality is immoral? Or is it more along the lines of "Fags are evil, I hate all fags,

Both

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 111): fags kill soldiers and cause everything bad in this country."

Wrong. They claim that the non-gay populace's tolerance of them is what prompts God to allow "everything bad".
Simple but significant difference between that and what you just stated.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 111): Why is it not a given to you that mainstream Christianity doesn't share the core message of the WBC? Personally I don't need any reassurance from Christian leaders of this fact. Why do you?

Because in the (rather expectant) event that you aren't sharp enough to have already figured it out: I was raised in an enormous congregation that'd agree with 99% of Westboro's message, sans its presentation.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 111): What is your motive in continously trying to establish a valid connection between these groups?

...don't have to try all that hard

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 115): Yet very few Christian churches condemn the message of WBC.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 117): Not one of them is from the largest Denomination in the US.

...yeah, they're only #2, with a few dozen million.

[Edited 2007-04-18 17:08:13]

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 118): Quoting 777236ER (Reply 115): Yet very few Christian churches condemn the message of WBC.

Source please.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 119): Source please.

...k, now that's a rather ridiculous request don'tya think-- as it's just a little tough to display what isn't there  

But it works well the other way around (just swap "Christian Leader" with "Church"), so in the event you missed it the first time:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 105): You've done thus-- good for you, seriously. Now show me a tangible source which depicts any "Christian leader", self appointed or otherwise, doing the same. Need time? ...I'm prepared to wait, will probably need to.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 120):

Listen I've just about had enough.

You don't like Christians.

I get that. We all do. You're a bigot. I've given you the opportunity to see that portraying all Christians as agreeing with Phelps' message as not helping your cause.

You don't want to do that.

Maybe the reason people don't like you Concordeboy isn't because you're gay. It's because your a self-righteous bigot.

you sit at your computer and complain that EVERYONE who believes, hates gays. Evidence to the contrary is all around you, but still All Christians believe the same thing to you.

Guess what the Nazis played the same rhetorical tricks against the Jews, painting them all the same.
Phelps does the same thing painting all Gays as sinners.
You do the same thing painting all Christians as haters.

You no better than they are. In fact you're worse. Because while Everyone condemns Phelps and Hitler. no one dares to condemn you.

Well I do.

I'm disgusted with hate, and demagogues of any stripe. I particularly don't like hypocrites and Concordeboy you are the worse kind of hypocrite.

I've said my piece this thread is no longer about Phelps. It's about Concordeboy and his bigotry. We can do that in another thread.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 78): Yes, I agree entirely. If a God exists I would hope he wouldn't care about who you had a consenting relationship with. But that's beside the point: it's clear in the Bible that homosexuality is an abomination, and many if not most Christians think it is a sin.

where does it say that? Please tell me. I never chose to be the way that I am, and I do not care how many ignoramus - know it all Christians say otherwise. Did God drop down and appoint you to be universal supreme commander? Did God appoint you to condemn me? WELL

, in a 2000 year old book, which has been manipulated and translated of 10,000 times, yes , I am sure that is the word of God. Please just one passage which says homosexuals are going to hell. Do not read me something which can be argued and INTERPRETED as though they are, show me the passage which says they are ! .

For someone to believe in such foolishness really does not deserve to breathe. If a few members of Fred Phelps family were mowed down at Virginia Tech, i guess it would be because they are fag enablers, therefore must be burning in hell? God gave each and every one of us the gift of life, knowing what we will become. I am living proof that homosexuality is not chosen. Therefore, the bible thumping , GOD HATES FAGS, protests, really have no meaning, and just demote a group of people because of difference. Judge and be Judged.

I contribute and make the lives of those around me more positive. It is impossible to tell that I prefer the company of males. As for which, is NOBODY elses business. If you care so much about someone elses life... the way they LIVE their life, the way God made them, then you are virtually disagreeing with your .... God's decision. I am not a flaming homosexual, parading around like I have no manly hood, however the physical attractions themselves are NOT chosen. It is time for people to mind their own damn business, shut their holes, and not worry about what someone else may have which is different. Should the special needs and disabled burn in hell as well? If I am condemned to hell by your magical God then ok. I have my own beliefs, my own outlooks. I was raised as a Catholic, and I know that if this garbage from the WBC was true, God would be striking homosexuals down , now the innocent ones who are living the "right" life, as the WBC would say.

JUDGE AND BE JUDGED

[Edited 2007-04-18 18:17:50]

I can see that your argumentative abilities (*chortle*) have fully run out of steam, but oh well, I'll play along.....

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 121): Listen I've just about had enough.

So why then do you continue interacting?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 121): You don't like Christians. I get that. We all do.

....you're so far in left field on that one that you're coming back around from the right!

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 121): You're a bigot.

I could be very accurately accused of bigotry against a certain religion yes, but Christianity isn't the one.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 121): Maybe the reason people don't like you Concordeboy

...ya mean like here for example:

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 120): ConcordeBoy *** RR: 70

If not, what other examples did ya have in mind?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 121): you sit at your computer and complain that EVERYONE who believes, hates gays.

*BULLSH!T ALERT*
I have not stated, hinted, or implied (much less complained) that everyone who believes hates gays... and I CHALLENGE you to show otherwise.

[Edited 2007-04-18 18:27:53]

Quoting CF188A (Reply 122): where does it say that? Please tell me.

Some would say Leviticus 20:13 would be the optimum example... though it actually speaks of gay sex, not homosexuality per se.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 124): . though it actually speaks of gay sex, not homosexuality per se.

well gay sex comes with the life...

Quoting CF188A (Reply 125): well gay sex comes with the life...

...not necessarily. You'll actually find growing numbers of celibate religious gays who realize that they are what they are, but choose to abstain from having sex lives in order to comply with their beliefs.

I know plenty who've tried it, and some even maintain (almost always female). Most have failed, and went through horrific depression during the experience; myself included.

Quoting ConcordeBoy (Reply 124): Some would say Leviticus 20:13 would be the optimum example... though it actually speaks of gay sex, not homosexuality per se.

..... exactly, many would argue it ... but IT DOES NOT DIRECTLY SAY IT OR EVEN TOUCH ON A SOLID CONCRETE ANSWER ! The WBC is all pure evil interpretation

This thread has degenerated into personal attacks and he jumped the shark. It's done.