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jaysit
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:35 am

If the guy was a foreign student on a F-1 Visa, how on earth was he legally authorized to purchase a gun.

I always thought that guns could only be purchased by citizens or permanent residents.

What gives?
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BCAInfoSys
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 150):
If the guy was a foreign student on a F-1 Visa, how on earth was he legally authorized to purchase a gun.

I always thought that guns could only be purchased by citizens or permanent residents.

This is a good question. It's worth noting that the serial numbers were filed off. Was there before or after the fact? If he purchased the weapons with the numbers already filed; chances are it was an illegal/underground sale.
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
jaysit
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:12 am

Well, CNN now states that he was a green card holder and, thus, a permanent resident.

Which means that he probably could have obtained a gun legally.

According to the news reports, the registration numbers on the guns were scraped off.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:50 am

Here he is:
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TedTAce
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 1:53 am

From the story
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18148802/

Quote:

BLACKSBURG, Va. - A 23-year-old senior from South Korea whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school’s counseling service was behind the massacre of at least 30 people locked inside a university classroom building in the deadliest shooting rampage in modern U.S. history, the university said Tuesday.

'whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school’s counseling service' Holy effing shit!!! Now I REALLY have to wonder why the school didn't do better to stop him.
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OPNLguy
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:19 am

Something new...

"News reports also said that he may have been taking medication for depression, that he was becoming increasingly violent and erratic, and that he left a note in his dorm in which he railed against "rich kids," "debauchery" and "deceitful charlatans" on campus."
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airtran737
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 2:41 am

My heart goes out to the students, families, friends, and faculty members of the victims of this horrible event. I have a friend who is studying for his Ph.D right now at Tech, and I was worried about him. He is well and so are his friends. God bless.


We're all Hokies right now.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
jaysit
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 3:53 am

Why is the dimwitted press calling this kid a "student from South Korea?"

The kid and his parents immigrated to the US 15 years ago when he was about 8 years old, and he's been living in the DC suburbs since then.

Except for his racial characteristics, he's probably about as Korean as Lindsay Lohan.
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airtran737
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 157):
Why is the dimwitted press calling this kid a "student from South Korea?"

The kid and his parents immigrated to the US 15 years ago when he was about 8 years old, and he's been living in the DC suburbs since then.

Maybe he has a Greencard still.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
767Lover
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:31 am

Quoting AirTran737 (Reply 158):

Maybe he has a Greencard still.

It was reported that he is on greencard status. This piece of info about him being an immigrant also has to do with how he was legally able to obtain a weapon (so I understand.)
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting 767Lover (Reply 159):
This piece of info about him being an immigrant also has to do with how he was legally able to obtain a weapon (so I understand.)

I had read earlier that the serial numbers had been scraped off the guns, which would indicate that the guns were obtained illegally. Is this not the case?
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
TedTAce
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:06 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 160):
which would indicate that the guns were obtained illegally

Not necessarily. There was a reciept for one of the guns, so maybe he just wanted to not have the SN's on the guns. This will not be known for a while if at all. Either way though, whether purchased legally or not, the main point is REALLY that they were illegal at the time of the shootings.
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CastleIsland
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:13 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 161):
Not necessarily.

Good point.
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
RJdxer
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 148):
There will be time to perpahs point fingers at anyone to blame; a time to wonder if the ambulance-chasers will be out in force, and a time to argue guns-again. But the time is not now.

Tell that to the news services, all of them. They are all working as hard as they can to whip up sentiment that the University should have locked down a campus the size of a small city. Nancy DisGrace should be fired as should Geraldo.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
saxdiva
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 154):

'whose creative writing was so disturbing that he was referred to the school�s counseling service' Holy effing shit!!! Now I REALLY have to wonder why the school didn't do better to stop him.

You raise an interesting point, Ted, and it's the same one I brought up in an e-mail to our University president last night in reply to his e-mail to the campus. College faculty work with folks who are growing and transitioning in ways that can be VERY turbulent. And by and large, we're subject-matter specialists who are NOT trained to deal with stuff like this. IMHO this is a glaring oversight--but sometimes it takes a tragedy to make people realize that we have a problem.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 157):
Why is the dimwitted press calling this kid a "student from South Korea?"

The kid and his parents immigrated to the US 15 years ago when he was about 8 years old, and he's been living in the DC suburbs since then.

Except for his racial characteristics, he's probably about as Korean as Lindsay Lohan.

It's significant because many international students--particularly those from Asian cultures--are under unbelievable pressure to be not only successful, but outstanding. When you add in the considerations of language an cultural differences, the stress can be overwhelming. That doesn't excuse murder, but it does make me stop and think about whether we're adequately prepared to help students when they find themselves near the breaking point.
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jaysit
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting Saxdiva (Reply 164):
It's significant because many international students--particularly those from Asian cultures--are under unbelievable pressure to be not only successful, but outstanding. When you add in the considerations of language an cultural differences, the stress can be overwhelming.

Hellooooo? Earth to Saxdiva.

Shall we not get ahead of ourselves here? Yeah, the Stanfords and MITs of the world are filled with Asian students, but to date no one's gone Halloween on a group of people before.

Plus, this kid apparently spoke perfect non-accented American English and had been living in a Washington DC suburb for the past 15 years.

Also, he bought the guns quite legally and a background check was conducted on him, which took about a minute. The whole transaction took about 5 minutes.
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:41 am

God damn it! The news channels are sure making a mountain out of a mole hill with this. Yack, yack, yack. All fucking day. And they showed the damned memorial service live on nearly every fricking over-the-air channel. And what the hell is Bush doing there? Is he going to show up at the next media circus following a bus crash, tornado, or train wreck?

The media didn't preempt normal programming following the Clock Tower massacre at the University of Texas in Austin. They didn't do it following the Luby's massacre in Killeen, Texas. Each of those events earned 30-second slots on the evening news. What makes this event worthy of such uber-hype?
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jaysit
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 166):
The media didn't preempt normal programming following the Clock Tower massacre at the University of Texas in Austin. They didn't do it following the Luby's massacre in Killeen, Texas. Each of those events earned 30-second slots on the evening news. What makes this event worthy of such uber-hype?

That was then. This is now.

Back in 1966, you had 3 TV networks and the local radio station.

Back in 1991, everyone was too busy watching Cosby.

Nowadays, you have 10000 TV stations all vying for your attention.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
saxdiva
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 165):
Hellooooo? Earth to Saxdiva.

Shall we not get ahead of ourselves here? Yeah, the Stanfords and MITs of the world are filled with Asian students, but to date no one's gone Halloween on a group of people before.

Earth to whom?!?!?

Tell you what, Jaysit. YOU plunk your arrogant ass in my office for a term and talk to my students, more than half of whom are of Asian descent. YOU talk to a 20 year-old kid who's carrying an insane workload as a double-major in engineering and business, and ends up in tears upon finding out that the competing demands have just earned him the first C he's ever received, and he knows he's going to catch holy hell from his parents. YOU try advising a student who's about to graduate with a degree and top honors in a field he can't stand, but knows that if he pursues HIS aspirations, he'll be ostracized from his family. And while you're at it, why don't you explain to them that their parents have been here for fifteen years, so they can't possibly have the expectations their kids are describing to you. I'm sure you'll make them feel all warm and fuzzy with that reassurance.

No, these pressures aren't exclusive to Asian students.... they just seem to be a hell of a lot more common among them. And since I'm not exactly able to walk the proverbial mile in their shoes, I have to take what they tell me as reality--at least, as how THEY perceive it.

But hey, I just work in this environment every damn day, so don't let THAT stop you from knowing everything.
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jaysit
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:40 am

Quoting Saxdiva (Reply 168):
Quoting Jaysit (Reply 165):
Hellooooo? Earth to Saxdiva.

Shall we not get ahead of ourselves here? Yeah, the Stanfords and MITs of the world are filled with Asian students, but to date no one's gone Halloween on a group of people before.

Earth to whom?!?!?

Tell you what, Jaysit. YOU plunk your arrogant ass in my office for a term and talk to my students, more than half of whom are of Asian descent. YOU talk to a 20 year-old kid who's carrying an insane workload as a double-major in engineering and business, and ends up in tears upon finding out that the competing demands have just earned him the first C he's ever received, and he knows he's going to catch holy hell from his parents.

Blah blah blah.

I'm quite familiar with the pressures Asian students have (I'm Indian myself, and our parents are no less demanding than East Asians). And I went to a school that probably had the toughest academic standards to meet. And there were thousands of Asian students there. So quit the lecture, sister. I aint impressed.

If academic pressures, parental expectations and double majors were to cause Asian students to go cuckoo and go on a slaughtering rampage, we'd have seen this before. We haven't. This is an isolated incident involving one deeply disturbed individual. The fact that he's of Asian descent is just incidental. He could well have been white, black, latino, Arab, Indian, or a combination of all of the above.

And besides, this kid was an English major. He wasn't majoring in Chemical Engineering or Astrophysics. And he was taking creative writing classes. It appears that his parents weren't the stereotypical Asian family demanding that their kid go to Medical School or get a Ph.D in something incredibly difficult.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 7:41 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 166):
And what the hell is Bush doing there?

Not trying to sound like an ass here but, if he wasn't there, people would be criticizing him for not showing up. It would be Katrina all over again.
I lift things up and put them down.
 
saxdiva
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:32 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 169):
Blah blah blah.

Great opening salvo. Is that what they teach at whatever prestigious institution you went to?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 169):
If academic pressures, parental expectations and double majors were to cause Asian students to go cuckoo and go on a slaughtering rampage, we'd have seen this before. We haven't.

I don't see where I said the student was violent because he was Asian--only why his cultural background might have been considered significant in the discussion. Also, it's important to note that not every act of campus violence makes it onto CNN. Suicides are actually the second most common cause of death among college students (right behind traffic accidents), and although I don't know the ethnic breakdown of students who kill themselves, I can only imagine that intensifying pressures (both academic and social) probably don't help.

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 169):
I'm quite familiar with the pressures Asian students have (I'm Indian myself, and our parents are no less demanding than East Asians). And I went to a school that probably had the toughest academic standards to meet. And there were thousands of Asian students there. So quit the lecture, sister. I aint impressed.

So what, you want a cookie because you didn't shoot anyone? If you're so familiar with the same phenomena I said I'd observed, why do you find it necessary to argue about it?

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 169):
This is an isolated incident involving one deeply disturbed individual. The fact that he's of Asian descent is just incidental. He could well have been white, black, latino, Arab, Indian, or a combination of all of the above.

It's only incidental if you want to pretend that cultural differences are so meaningless that they don't warrant discussion. Since I'm in a position of needing to advise people who face an entirely different set of pressures from the ones I grew up with, I think it's important to try and understand where they're coming from.

[Edited 2007-04-18 01:34:54]
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UALPHLCS
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:39 am

I think this thread has lost it's integrity thanks guys for devolving into bickering.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
jaysit
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:56 am

Quoting Saxdiva (Reply 171):
It's only incidental if you want to pretend that cultural differences are so meaningless that they don't warrant discussion. Since I'm in a position of needing to advise people who face an entirely different set of pressures from the ones I grew up with, I think it's important to try and understand where they're coming from.

You're extrapolating. Rather excessively. (Not to mention hyperventilating)

Cultural differences aren't meaningless, but to even hint that parental pressure to perform academically may have been a factor in creating the stress that caused the kid to kill his fellow students (that pet the cat, that ate the rat, that lived in the house that Jack built) is a knee jerk reaction at best.

What if the murderer had been Italian American? Or Muslim? Or black? Or Jewish? Would one then indulge in stereotypical sociological pigeon-holing to explain this crime?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
N1120A
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting 71Zulu (Reply 7):
Would have been nice if someone had a gun to defend themselves and others but I would assume handguns would not be allowed on campus

Did you really make this post? It is absolutely horrible that this happened, but it sure as hell shouldn't scare people into carrying guns to school

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 89):
The way it works in Texas is they are fine in your car, and out in the open between the buildings (presuming its concealed and you have a concealed carry permit). Once you walk into the building then you are breaking the law. Thats how it works in Texas anyway.

Despite the fact that Virginia Tech is a public university, the property is still private and subject the regulations of the university system. Further, many (most?) university campuses have special firearm restrictions passed to cover their land.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
RJdxer
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:17 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 174):
Despite the fact that Virginia Tech is a public university, the property is still private and subject the regulations of the university system. Further, many (most?) university campuses have special firearm restrictions passed to cover their land

Yep,

http://www.judicial.vt.edu/upsl.php#weapons

Section V.W. - Weapons
Unauthorized possession, storage, or control of firearms and weapons on university property is prohibited, including storing weapons in vehicles on campus as well as in the residence halls. (Note: organizational weapons of the Virginia Tech Corps of Cadets, approved by the commandant, are not prohibited by this policy.)

Firearms are defined as any gun, rifle, pistol, or handgun designed to fire bullets, BBs, pellets, or shots (including paint balls), regardless of the propellant used. Other weapons are defined as any instrument of combat or any object not designed as an instrument of combat but carried for the purpose of inflicting or threatening bodily injury. Examples include but are not limited to knives with fixed blades or pocket knives with blades longer than 4 inches, razors, metal knuckles, blackjacks, hatchets, bows and arrows, nun chukkas, foils, or any explosive or incendiary device. Possession of realistic replicas of weapons on campus is prohibited. Students who store weapons in residence hall rooms, who brandish weapons, or who use a weapon in a reckless manner may face disciplinary action, which may include suspension or dismissal from the university.

Exceptions to possessing weapons may be made in the case of university functions or activities and for educational exhibitions or displays. Such exceptions will be subject to authorization by the Virginia Tech Police. This policy does not prohibit the possession of firearms by persons, such as law enforcement officers, who are authorized by law to do so in the performance of their duties. A weapons storage program is available. Interested persons should contact the Virginia Tech Police (Sterrett Facilities Complex,
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Queso
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:20 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 174):
It is absolutely horrible that this happened, but it sure as hell shouldn't scare people into carrying guns to school

Why not? It makes a lot of sense. If people can carry pepper spray to defend themselves from those who attempt a contact assault, why can't those who are of age and eligible to buy a gun carry it to defend themselves from just this type of deadly assault?
 
allstarflyer
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 9:58 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 176):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 174):
It is absolutely horrible that this happened, but it sure as hell shouldn't scare people into carrying guns to school

Why not? It makes a lot of sense. If people can carry pepper spray to defend themselves from those who attempt a contact assault, why can't those who are of age and eligible to buy a gun carry it to defend themselves from just this type of deadly assault?

 checkmark  Some folks just won't accept that guns can do something good on a personal level in public.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
N1120A
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:03 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 176):
Why not? It makes a lot of sense. If people can carry pepper spray to defend themselves from those who attempt a contact assault, why can't those who are of age and eligible to buy a gun carry it to defend themselves from just this type of deadly assault?

Because this is the exception, not the norm. I didn't say they can or can't do anything, I said that there is no reason to do so and walk around shaking like a leaf, carrying a gun.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 177):
Some folks just won't accept that guns can do something good on a personal level in public

On a personal level? Carry a gun, make your social life better? I see no need to carry an instantly deadly weapon on a daily basis, or at all. I am not so scared of life that I find it necessary.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
RJdxer
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:06 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 177):
Some folks just won't accept that guns can do something good on a personal level in public.

We just had a legal card carrying concealed handgun owner here in Houston murder someone who brushed against him on a city bus. There is a reason they are not allowed in bars. There is a reason most employers do not allow weapons to be carried by employees while they are on the premises.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 178):
On a personal level? Carry a gun, make your social life better? I see no need to carry an instantly deadly weapon on a daily basis, or at all. I am not so scared of life that I find it necessary.

 checkmark 
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
767Lover
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:06 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 169):
Blah blah blah.



Quoting Jaysit (Reply 169):
So quit the lecture, sister. I aint impressed.

Is that really necessary?
 
MDorBust
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:14 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 178):
I am not so scared of life that I find it necessary.

That kind or rhetoric isn't necessary.

Painting people who choose to carry a firearm as cowards is dishonest at best.

Crime happens. It's a fact. True, the percentage chance of it happening to any one person is small, but that's little consolation for that person.

Carrying the means to defend yourself is a personal choice, and shouldn't be ridiculed any more than a person who chooses not to should be ridiculed.

Would you like it if in the same way you imply those that carry are cowards they chose to call you an overconfident target?

It's enough to simply say that you accept your chances.

Queso, you know I'm one of the biggest firearms rights supporters on this forum... but I don't know. College students are under a great deal of stress and tend to be at a phase in life that is emotionally unstable. I can see allowing faculty, if they chose to and can become properly certified, to carry a concealed weapon but I think that allowing carry by the student body is going a little too far. Perhaps I'm tainted by one too many run-ins with frat boys, but I think that the student body in general is probably a little too unstable to allow carry on campus.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
ltbewr
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:19 am

Now with the probable murderer has been identified, info on him has developed. This includes some alleged info as to his writings being disturbing and possible reasoning for his attacks such as anger about the 'decedance' of the 'rich' students there.
One thought I have is if his attack may have some religious factors. He is a S. Korean national, a permanent USA resident, coming to the USA with his parents as a child. A number of Koreans that came to the USA did so as they accepted Christianity, including rather intense forms of it as their faith; years ago it was difficult for Christains to live there due to their faith. Perhaps his family has that in their history. Some of his alleged comments as to his fellow students, that perhaps his 'girlfriend' was cheating on him, the huge pressures he has on him to get good grades, also have to be considered as potential factors connect with religious implications in his life changing act.
That he bought the guns legally, and passed the requirements to buy a gun in Virginia does bring up issues of how a non-citizen, albeit a de-facto citizen for most of his life could do so. That he allegedly shaved the serial numbers off, the time he took to buy a gun, the probable timing of his acts, notes a certain amount of pre-meditation.
I suspect some politicians will play to the pro and anti-gun lobbies with this, with nothing really being done useful to reduce the criminal use of guns.
I believe that this horrible act will be the subject of much follow up in the next several weeks until key questions are answered as to the attacker and where we go from here to reduce the risks from such attacks.
 
N1120A
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:22 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 181):
That kind or rhetoric isn't necessary

I think that rhetoric under its classical definition is highly underrated. So does Cicero. Aside from that, see below.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 181):
Painting people who choose to carry a firearm as cowards is dishonest at best.

I didn't say that. There are lots of people I know, from my A.net pals to my ultra-leftist uncle, who love their guns and aren't cowardly. My issue is specifically with the post made, almost as a call to arms for people to get strapped for any situation, which is ridiculous.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 181):
Perhaps I'm tainted by one too many run-ins with frat boys, but I think that the student body in general is probably a little too unstable to allow carry on campus.

That is the exact reason why I have a major problem with people walking around packing. Human beings are generally unstable. It is not a bad thing, all the truly intelligent species have an issue with that (look at how the dolphin that played Flipper killed himself). Our instability is what makes us succeed even more than what makes us fail but it is also what makes the idea of an armed society a dangerous one. Student life is definately an area where that instability causes an incredibly wide range of reactions and I would venture to say that it would likely get far too bloody if we were walking around all carrying guns.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:24 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 181):
Queso, you know I'm one of the biggest firearms rights supporters on this forum... but I don't know. College students are under a great deal of stress and tend to be at a phase in life that is emotionally unstable. I can see allowing faculty, if they chose to and can become properly certified, to carry a concealed weapon but I think that allowing carry by the student body is going a little too far. Perhaps I'm tainted by one too many run-ins with frat boys, but I think that the student body in general is probably a little too unstable to allow carry on campus.

As I am also a card carrying Pro-Gun supporter, I must agree and take a step further than MDorBust. I simply don't see a need for firearms in the classroom.

I don't think they're necessary on the campus.

I could paint all sorts of bizarre what-if scenarios but that's not necessary.

If however, a student is of legal age to own and carry a weapon, off the campus, then that's his/her right. It shall not be infringed upon by the University nor the local constabulary.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
MDorBust
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RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:24 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 183):
I didn't say that.

I appologize then.

I read it in the same light I read another post earlier today that did say straight out what I was talking about.

My fault.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
saxdiva
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Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:51 pm

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:29 am

Quoting Jaysit (Reply 173):

What if the murderer had been Italian American? Or Muslim? Or black? Or Jewish? Would one then indulge in stereotypical sociological pigeon-holing to explain this crime?

Since you keep on attacking a position you *think* I hold instead of giving a passing thought to what I'm actually talking about, there's really not much point in keeping up this conversation. I'll move on.
See terms for details....
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2742
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 177):
Some folks just won't accept that guns can do something good on a personal level in public.

I think Freud would have some interesting observations about your thought process here. Do you plan on shoving the gun down the front of your pants?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 163):
They are all working as hard as they can to whip up sentiment that the University should have locked down a campus the size of a small city.

Again with the apples and oranges analogy. The shootings occurred within 1/2 mile of one another. That's roughly 2600 feet. This isn't Compton California we're talking about where shootings are a weekly, if not nightly occurrence. This is a college campus where a double murder occurred with an unknown assailant at large. Other than securing the immediate area where the shootings occurred, the authorities did nothing to alert students or faculty about the possible danger that existed on campus. Unless you don't characterize a gunman on the loose who just murdered two people in cold blood as 'dangerous'. It was only after the second round of shootings were in progress when it occurred to campus authorities that perhaps they should get the word out there is a gunman running around murdering people. Tragically, however, by that time, it was too late and 30 more people were being brutally murdered.

Let me ask those of you who don't find any fault with the way the first shootings were handled by campus authorities: If it were one of your kids who had been brutally executed in the second round of shootings, would your opinion be the same?
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 10:57 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 178):
Carry a gun, make your social life better?

Yeah, I'm doing it to get the girls  sarcastic . The wording is a bit twisted there.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 178):
I see no need to carry an instantly deadly weapon on a daily basis, or at all. I am not so scared of life that I find it necessary.

At all? It may have helped the now-former mayor of Nagasaki (but they don't have the same privileges we do here, unfortunately). And I'm not scared of life persay, either. But I am concerned about some places to/through which I might be going in the city.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 183):
My issue is specifically with the post made, almost as a call to arms for people to get strapped for any situation, which is ridiculous.

Did I say that? Any situation? I probably wouldn't care to be packing at church or if I was attending a class (although, after yesterday  boggled  ), etc. What does it hurt to carry one, though, in one's vehicle? Had someone been able to do that yesterday morning, who knows if the outcome may have been different?

N1120A, someday, you (though, hopefully not) might be in such a situation as those kids were yesterday - with no police around or equivalent force to confront the attacker. I wonder if you can share what you feel you may do (or want to do).

-R
Living the American Dream
 
iflykpdx
Posts: 282
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:42 am

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:12 am

Don't think this has been posted before, but apparently one of the victims was a well known aeronautical engineer:

"Liviu Librescu, 76, an engineering science and mechanics lecturer. Born in Romania, he survived the Nazi Holocaust and emigrated to Israel in 1978 before moving to Virginia in 1985.

An Israeli citizen, he had taught at Virginia Tech for 20 years and was internationally known for his work in aeronautical engineering."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18143312/page/3/
Airport Management - UND
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting IflyKPDX (Reply 189):
survived the Nazi Holocaust

To think he survived something as horrible as that, yet died at the hands of a 20something punk out of the blue.

One of the reports I read about this guy stated he held the door to the classroom closed preventing students in his classroom from being killed. He was shot to death while holding that door closed, and that makes him a REAL American hero.  tombstone 
This space intentionally left blank
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:17 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 188):
N1120A, someday, you (though, hopefully not) might be in such a situation as those kids were yesterday - with no police around or equivalent force to confront the attacker. I wonder if you can share what you feel you may do (or want to do).

N1120A went with us to BHM last year for the A.Net shootout. He's been exposed to firearms, has used firearms, and I'm sure knows who to contact if he feels he ever wants to be further trained with a firearm. He at least has taken the step of seeing the other side of the coin. It's a choice he has made, and we should respect it.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 190):
To think he survived something as horrible as that, yet died at the hands of a 20something punk out of the blue.

One of the reports I read about this guy stated he held the door to the classroom closed preventing students in his classroom from being killed. He was shot to death while holding that door closed, and that makes him a REAL American hero.

Yeah I heard about that as well. It's truely heartbreaking, yet comforting to know that there really are real heroes out there.




-NWA742

[Edited 2007-04-18 04:20:00]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:30 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 187):
Let me ask those of you who don't find any fault with the way the first shootings were handled by campus authorities: If it were one of your kids who had been brutally executed in the second round of shootings, would your opinion be the same?

I think I can safely say that were I in that unfortunate situation, I'd be too upset to have anything approaching an objective opinion on the subject.

As I said earlier, it'll be easy for the media and others to Monday morning QB this event, but look at it this way. You work in a big building that has 2,000 workers. Just a 10-minute walk down the street, there's a convenience store. Let's further assume someone goes into the store one morning and, unfortunately, shoots and kills both clerks. The initial reaction to such an event is probably going to be that it's an over-and-done event, and that the perp is long gone. How many people would even remotely consider the possibility that the same gunman would walk into the crowded office building 2 hours later and start a wholesale massacre?

In the VT case, I can't say that I fault their PD and Administration for their initial assessment. The media is full of cases where one or two bodies are involved, and it's not an abnormal number that's foreign to people--even if it did occur at their school--they've heard the number before, used elsewhere. I don't think anyone on this planet could have gleaned enough information in those two hours after the dorm attack to have successfully predicted that there'd be a mass assault elsewhere on innocent victims not related to the initial two victims. This isn't like an episode of Law & Order where things happen perfectly like clockwork. That said, I can fully understand the need for some to have a villian or someone to blame, especially since the real perp here offed himself and deprived everyone of that.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
L-188
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Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:48 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 188):
Quoting N1120A (Reply 178):
Carry a gun, make your social life better?

Yeah, I'm doing it to get the girls . The wording is a bit twisted there.

Well Trojan does call it's largest size a "Magnum"

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 191):
N1120A went with us to BHM last year for the A.Net shootout. He's been exposed to firearms, has used firearms, and I'm sure knows who to contact if he feels he ever wants to be further trained with a firearm. He at least has taken the step of seeing the other side of the coin. It's a choice he has made, and we should respect it.

Agreed, but I think he will agree that his opinions are based on his life experiences. I think we might be able to bring him over if we could get him to spend some time in a remote village.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 179):
There is a reason most employers do not allow weapons to be carried by employees while they are on the premises.

See I am torn on that one, the right to carry vs. property rights.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
j_hallgren
Posts: 1427
Joined: Sun Jun 04, 2000 11:48 am

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 11:54 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 190):
One of the reports I read about this guy stated he held the door to the classroom closed preventing students in his classroom from being killed. He was shot to death while holding that door closed, and that makes him a REAL American hero.

This guy being a hero is the one thing that I don't think anyone would disagree with...but I've also heard that some people in another class put desks by door to keep killer from barging in...I'm confused by that...I thought all those doors should open out, not in, as is standard for commercial buildings...so are these VT classroom doors in-open or out-open?
COBOL - Not a dead language yet!
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:00 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 181):
Painting people who choose to carry a firearm as cowards is dishonest at best.

Crime happens. It's a fact. True, the percentage chance of it happening to any one person is small, but that's little consolation for that person.

Carrying the means to defend yourself is a personal choice, and shouldn't be ridiculed any more than a person who chooses not to should be ridiculed.

Dying in a car wreck has a small percentage of chance to the ordinary person, should we demand that all automobiles and drivers on the road be made to adhere to NASCAR safety standards? Saying that if someone there had had a firearm on them could have stopped this person is just as ridiculous. At worst it would have been a pitched gun battle with the same amount of collateral damage, not all caused by the gunman. I don't think anyone who carries a firearm is a coward, but I'd rather they don't pull the thing until I'm out of the way either. Pitched gun battles always seem to have a way of taking their highest toll on the people who aren't armed.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 187):
Again with the apples and oranges analogy.

Sorry, but you have yet to explain how you go about locking down a college campus with somewhere between 10 and 20 thousand people in it.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 187):
shootings occurred within 1/2 mile of one another. That's roughly 2600 feet.

Google map that 2600 feet and tell me what you see. It's not 2600 feet of open ground.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 187):
Other than securing the immediate area where the shootings occurred, the authorities did nothing to alert students or faculty about the possible danger that existed on campus.

What evidence did the police have that a possible danger outside the room existed? Of who might present that danger? What exactly did you expect them to say? They had no suspect, no motive, no evidence linking the gunman to the scene? They initially stopped the girls boyfriend in his truck and questioned him so it wasn't like they were sitting around with thumbs up their asses. The initial warning was done by email. What if you are on your way to class? What if you are in class? What if you are asleep? What good does an email that says "hey, a couple of students were murdered in one of the dorms. We don't know who did it but be on the look out for someone who looks like a murderer."

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 187):
If it were one of your kids who had been brutally executed in the second round of shootings, would your opinion be the same?

Yes. As of this time it appears that only Monday morning quarterbacks like you seem to have the luminescence to have figured it all out in less than 2 hours.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5558
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 188):
At all? It may have helped the now-former mayor of Nagasaki

Unlikely, he was shot in the back.

I have a question for those that believe someone at Norris Hall carrying a gun might have helped(and I am not making a point one way or the other here)

How does Law enforcement react when they arrive and there are multiple weapons in play.. perhaps a running gunfight, who are the good guys, who are the bad guys?
Just curious how others, especially the law enforcement professionals amongst us see that situation.

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:10 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 196):
What evidence did the police have that a possible danger outside the room existed? Of who might present that danger?

The first victim was reportedly the floor resident advisor.

I can't picture that his identity as such wouldn't have been made known to the police by the witnesses or the building supervisor, who I can't picture not getting called in by the police. And therefore I have a hard time buying that the police couldn't figure out that he and the girl wheren't linked.

I think that 2 hour window and the police actions are going to get a lot of attention, and rightly so.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
NWA744
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon May 31, 2004 2:52 am

RE: Shooting At VA Tech

Wed Apr 18, 2007 12:21 pm

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