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deltadc9
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 148):
I can understand that the Democrats are keen on pinning the failure of Bush's Iraq war onto the tail end of his presidency instead of inheriting it for themselves (presumably), but not just the willing complicity most of them exhibited during the run-up to the invasion makes that approach smack quite a bit of hypocrisy.

On this we agree completely. This is a constant problem for the Democratic party, that and the inability to choose a viable candidate.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 148):
Your own military has been put through the grinder to an extent that this will turn into a rescue mission on their behalf eventually, and I'm afraid that point looks likely to come much earlier than a free, stable and blooming Iraq ever could.

Now you went overboard again. The problem is that we have just 1/10th of our military strenght in the theatre, the Iraqis are not carrying their share of the load, and the rules of engagement are crippling.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Klaus
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 6:54 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 150):
On this we agree completely. This is a constant problem for the Democratic party, that and the inability to choose a viable candidate.

Relative to the purgatory the Republicans are heading for, the Democrats have an embarrassment of riches by comparison.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 150):
Now you went overboard again. The problem is that we have just 1/10th of our military strenght in the theatre, the Iraqis are not carrying their share of the load, and the rules of engagement are crippling.

As an american observer recently put it (from memory): "We should normally have one unit deployed, one resting and another one preparing. With the current situation, we're down to a ratio of almost 1:1."

The breaking point is near, some think it's been crossed already. Overstressing your own military to that extent is not feasible nor defensible unless success is immediately imminent - and I'm not talking about Dick Cheney's delusions, I'm talking about reality.

Competent leadership is the greatest strength multiplicator there is for a military - or the most dire divisor in its absence.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:06 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 150):
a constant problem for the Democratic party, that and the inability to choose a viable candidate.

not just of the Democratic Party but of any party in opposition anywhere, who will try to attack the government. The Democrats in both 2000 and 2004 chose a most viable candidate. They both lost, extremely narrow in 2000, and narrowly but clearly in 2004. Such is democracy, you cannot know the outcome.
-

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 150):
the Iraqis are not carrying their share of the load

provide them with sufficent "loads" of tanks, artillery gun and fighter-bombers, and allow them to re-admit the officers of the old army back into the ranks, and they will "carry their share" . Then hand over the whole military infrastructure, and then your forces can get out
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AGM100
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:24 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 138):
Today the USA are so visibly weakened by Iraq that there is little if any threat potential left to intimidate anyone.

Klaus Quote

Sure , pull the dollar and watch people jump from windows all over the world. Na ... stock market went over 13K today .. new record.. echos of its the economy stupid.

Iraq is a side show Klaus , unfortunately the Dems in this country have tied it around their necks as the one thing to beat the GOP. Right now it is working with all the screaming and rooting for the enemy , but the rope will tighten on them.

The fact that they are proposing we just fold up and bugger out proves how small of a speed bump Iraq is. I can tell you if I did not have people I care about their , I probably would not give a crap at this point. Sure a loss their for the US will have consequences , in that AlQada will have a field day and be bolder than ever.

The US will be attacked again anyways , most likely a Nuke this time.. so why should we care. Iraq has nothing to do with that I guess.. Al Qada hates our way of life and they hate yours to ,if the US does not stand up to them who will ?.. who cares ... have another beer. Al Qada will win Iraq ... hoooray !

Klaus Im just venting man ... I know you feel strong about your opinion and I do respect you. Just frustrated today ..

Message to VP Cheney ... If you are as evil as they say here on ANet can you please do something about Harry Reid? You owe the troops that... Thanks.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
Klaus
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 153):
Iraq is a side show Klaus

Easy to test.

Tell your troops you've just started yet another conflict.

If your assessment is true, the response will be: "Sure thing! Let's roll!"

If mine is true, the response will more likely be: "You've got to be kidding us!", followed by a long string of unquotables.

Which do you think is more likely at this point?

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 153):
The fact that they are proposing we just fold up and bugger out proves how small of a speed bump Iraq is.

Uh, no, it doesn't. It's mostly political as far as I can see: "Let this president eat his words in public - 'Bring it on!' coming full circle!"

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 153):
The US will be attacked again anyways , most likely a Nuke this time

Possible, but actually not that likely.

Provoking a transparent and clueless US administration to a military adventure of the scale of Iraq and diverting attention away from the real fight against terrorism through police and political work was already a rousing success according to the known playbook of the terrorists. Much more effective than a nuke against an american city. (And let's hope they won't manage that on top of everything else.)

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 153):
Iraq has nothing to do with that I guess..

Finally!

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 153):
Al Qada hates our way of life and they hate yours to ,if the US does not stand up to them who will ?

The US has played perfectly into their hands. "Standing up to the terrorists" had something to do with Afghanistan, but apart from that there was little if any military component in a real counter-terrorist campaign, which has been neglected to a dangerous extent.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 153):
Al Qada will win Iraq ... hoooray !

That's actually not certain, but Iraq was a huge boon for them by demonstrating a) that the USA were really the "big satan" they always claimed, that b) the USA acted without legitimacy for selfish and shadowy ends and c) that "the west" was an enemy to "the muslim world" (or at least the sunni part of it they care about).

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 153):
Klaus Im just venting man ... I know you feel strong about your opinion and I do respect you. Just frustrated today ..

I can see that. It's hard not to, under the circumstances. Let's hope for the best and do what can be done for it.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 153):
Message to VP Cheney ... If you are as evil as they say here on ANet can you please do something about Harry Reid? You owe the troops that... Thanks.

I don't think Reid's much-publicized statement was wise, but unfortunately it's not that far from the truth as things look today.

You can fool some people all the time or you can fool all the people for some time, but you can't fool all people all the time.

It's high time Cheney put a sock in it and woke up to the real world.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:11 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 142):
this ridiculously oversimplified concept of transplanting democracy.



Quoting Klaus (Reply 142):
Going from a tribal society with considerable conflict potential pent up during centuries of religious sectarian struggles and especially during the past decades of Saddam's rule towards a completely untested new democracy requires a huge leap of faith

So I won't use Germany in 1945 Let's use Japan.

As a historian When looking for a model I naturally look to the past. There is no precedent other than Germany 1945 for this. The model is incomplete and inaccurate in many ways but it still holds. Simply saying "you can't use Germany 1945 as a model doesn't make it so.

The Baath party is an Islamic version of Fascism. The Iraqi society prior to the Fall of Saddam was relatively URBAN and one of the most secular societies in the Middle East. That's a fact used in refuting the Administration's claim that Saddam and OBL were working together.

There is simply no evidence that a counties of liberated people would almost immediately begin to destroy their own country in an effort to root out the liberator.

My assertion is that it is the height of racism to accuse the administration of not foreseeing that Iraq would devolve into barbarism, when clearly they thought more of the Iraqis themselves and of their politicians than you do. As I said before the Administration's sin was they trusted the Iraqis. Clearly they were wrong to do so. As I was wrong to do so.

They behavior of the Iraqis in not taking charge of their country and taking ownership of the solutions has left me cynical of anyone asking the US for help.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 142):
And people simply won't go for that if you haven't managed or even cared to help them restoring water, electricity, employment and most of all order after you've overrun their country and toppled the highly imperfect and often dangerous but still mostly workable order they had before.

How can this be don when what you build and employ people to do is destroyed the next day by the neighbor of the person you hired?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 142):
Post-WWII Germany was a completely different case in almost every respect, and parading Germany as a blueprint for a "new Iraq" was the epitome of shortsightedness and naivity.

Why simply because you say so? Post WW II Germany has many difference as all historical models do. But the fundamental truths are that Germany was far more devastated, Nazis were far more dedicated to their leader, and the people in a far worse state of shock than the Iraqis were. In fact the German people were in far worse shape simply because WWII was a total war aimed at crushing the populace as well as the military.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 142):
I don't see how you could draw any load-bearing conclusion from wild imaginings which don't have the slightest evidence on their side.

Math. The UNSCOM inspectors said that the numbers of what Saddam had and was was verifiably destroyed don't add up. That was the crux of the problem. Until that accounting discrepancy is explained, verifiably, the mystery remains. Like the case of Yamashitas Gold. No one knows what happened to it after World War II. There have been some plausible theories but it's still an open question.

What happened to the WMD the inspectors could not account for IS and open question. That they are in Iraq is not.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:47 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 155):
So I won't use Germany in 1945 Let's use Japan.

Japan is a very poor candidate for the model you seek as well, as previously explained in the relative beginning of this thread.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:04 am

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 156):
Japan is a very poor candidate for the model you seek as well, as previously explained in the relative beginning of this thread.

I was being rhetorical.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
blrsea
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 3:18 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 150):
The problem is that we have just 1/10th of our military strenght in the theatre, the Iraqis are not carrying their share of the load, and the rules of engagement are crippling.

What do you mean that rules of engagement are crippling? Fact is that US army had never trained for counter-insurgency oeprations in urban/populated areas, the way UK or Indian forces have. Hence the high rate of collateral damages initially, and the reason for iraqis to hate the americans. Some simple things like respecting the Iraqi culture, treating them differently( not putting feet on their head, respecting their women etc) etc would have made a big difference. But there was no one to teach them that initially.

The Iraqi army and police were disbanded by Paul Bremer, the viceroy of Iraq in his urge to de-Baathify the country. Unfortunately, what he ignored inspite of repeated requests was that many of the people were forced to become baath party members to get jobs or go up in the ladder. Suddenly, you lost a large number of soldiers and policemen who were trained to do their job and who had experience. Recruiting new people and training them from ground-up wasn't something very practical, and given that insurgency had greatly picked up by then and many were threatened for working with Americans and many lost their nerve, they just deserted. Not a good strategy at all, but then given the lack of analysis before going to war, and lack of post-war operations, this was to be expected.
 
baroque
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:30 pm

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 158):
What do you mean that rules of engagement are crippling? Fact is that US army had never trained for counter-insurgency operations in urban/populated areas, the way UK or Indian forces have. Hence the high rate of collateral damages initially, and the reason for iraqis to hate the americans. Some simple things like respecting the Iraqi culture, treating them differently( not putting feet on their head, respecting their women etc) etc would have made a big difference. But there was no one to teach them that initially.

 checkmark  It would be super if we could get a post from an Iraqi to give their point of view of being occupied. I am sure they would mention kick downs, being ordered in a language they don't understand before they get round to lack of services.

Occupations seldom go well. Much is made of the occupation of Germany, it might be more relevant to look at the German occupation of France. That holds more lessons for the problems of occupation than does that of Germany.

In spite of asking, I have been given no references to show how services are being restored. Is there a problem?
 
baroque
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:37 pm

For Moir's comment on the extent to which the UN agreed to the invasion of Iraq please see the SMH for 26 April 2007 at:

http://www.smh.com.au/cartoons/index.html
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 4:52 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 153):
Sure , pull the dollar and watch people jump from windows all over the world. Na ... stock market went over 13K today .. new record.. echos of its the economy stupid.

you have to differentiate. Headlines like "9XX billion US-Dollars are spent on the war in blablabla" means that weaponry, foodstuff, medical materials, consumer goods for the soldiers, transport capacity etc in that value is bought by the government. There are people who sell the stuff, usually with a profit, people who work on that, for a salary, and companies who transport the stuff to the locations in question.
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Quoting AGM100 (Reply 153):
Iraq is a side show Klaus , unfortunately

this is a strange aspect. In spite of the fact, that much of that "Iraq-business" is (messily) conducted by the USA, Iraq is of minor relevance in reality to the USA, but of prime importance in the longer term for both the Arab World and Europe (Russia INCluded). The geopolitical importance matters far more to the "Old World" than to the USA. That is the reason why you hear both arguments "the US-Americans cannot leave so suddenly as otherwise chaos erupts" AND "the chaos and mess can hardly get much worse, the situation can only get better if the USA clear the field". The problem in a way is not so much that somebody else would have acted so much better than the Americans, but THAT the US-Americans after the invasion did stay put. By the continued presence, what at the start clearly WAS a liberation became an occupation and damaged the political credibility of whomever under the present circumstances attempts to play "government" in Baghdad. And nobody gives a penny for a "democracy" which takes place under the double-mess of occupation and daily terror.
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Quoting AGM100 (Reply 153):
Al Qada hates our way of life and they hate yours to ,if the US does not stand up to them who will ?.. who cares ... have another beer. Al Qada will win Iraq ... hoooray !

the struggle against organisations like el-Qaeda is and ought to be police-work. It is NOT a military affair, as el-Qaeda, as shown in the attacks of them over the past few years, attacks in small groups or even single persons. Most Arab countries (you might guess the single exception ! ) and practically all European countries (and in reality most of all others) DO "stand up" against el-Qaeda, on a daily basis. By the phasing in of improvements in regard to security and safety most of all. ----------- "elQaeda will win in Iraq" ? really ? if they try to "win" they will be curbed very swiftly. And the next ruler, presumably a military ruler, will get rid of them in due time. Their chance to kill thousands in Iraq unfortunately is terribly high, their chance "to win" is ZERO .
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Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 155):
The Baath party is an Islamic version of Fascism.

NO, this is wrong.
-- the Ba'ath Party, with full name "Socialist party of the Arab Reawakening" is A) not right-wing but socialist, and it is B) NOT Islamic but secularist (founded by Michel Aflaq, a Syrian Christian). It basically is rather related to the social democratic parties in Western Europe. The Ba'ath Party, just as other Arab Socialists, has adopted the Bad Godesberger Program of the German SDP in favour of a social market economy. C) the party by definition is strictly PAN-Arab, which by definition includes Arab Christians, quite in contrast to Pan-Islamic groups
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Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 155):
behavior of the Iraqis in not taking charge of their country and taking ownership of the solutions

as soon as the occupation-troops are out, the Iraqis WILL take charge very swiftly
-
 
jacobin777
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 145):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 143):
...sounds as rude and arrogant as anything else to me.....

Thats because you have an agenda.

...no, I just called you on being a bit hypocritical..no "agendas" there... no 
"Up the Irons!"
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:19 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 161):
the Ba'ath Party, with full name "Socialist party of the Arab Reawakening" is A) not right-wing but socialist, and it is B) NOT Islamic but secularist (founded by Michel Aflaq, a Syrian Christian).

And the Nazi is a nickname for the National Socialist Party. In fact, the only place I use Nazi is here online. In the academic world when refering to the Nazi Party, you use the full name.

The Baath Party is not a left-wing party. It is a right-wing party, it's roots go back to the Nazis in World War II, it's ideological founders were educated in and admired Germany.

You confuse fundementalism in religion as automatically being right-wing. Just as in other threads people automatically accuse American Conservatives of being Fundementalist Christian. This simply isn't so.

The Nazis were not a religious party either. They were secularist. The Jews were not loathed for their religion they were loathed as a race.

Comparing Saddam Hussein with Adolph Hitler was NOT a rhetorical trick the Administration used. It was a historical comparison.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 161):
as soon as the occupation-troops are out, the Iraqis WILL take charge very swiftly

Then we are agreed. All I've been saying here is that I don't think Iraq is worth another American life. Let the Iraqis start taking charge of their situation.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:41 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 163):
Nazi is a nickname for the National Socialist Party.

the NSDAP was founded by Adolf Hitler and was right-wing from the beginning.
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Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 163):
The Baath Party is not a left-wing party. It is a right-wing party, it's roots go back to the Nazis in World War II, it's ideological founders were educated in and admired Germany.

No, the Ba'ath Party IS a LEFT-wing party. Its roots go back to French Catholic missionaries in Beirut in the late 1800s, and has NOTHING to do with Germany. Michel Aflaq, its founder, was NOT educated in Germany but in a French Catholic school.
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Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 163):
Saddam Hussein with Adolph Hitler was NOT a rhetorical trick the Administration used. It was a historical comparison.

a comparison justified by many methods, but a better comparison is to compare Saddam with his idol, Josip Stalin.
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Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 163):
All I've been saying here is that I don't think Iraq is worth another American life.

Maybe. But you put it as if US-Americans were dying FOR Iraq, while those who died did so for US-American policies and interests.
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ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 163):
Comparing Saddam Hussein with Adolph Hitler was NOT a rhetorical trick the Administration used. It was a historical comparison.

Another aspect is that Adolf Hitler was the founder of the state party and its ideological "father", while Stalin and Saddam just were members of the state party, and Saddam not even a leading member. Stalin at least was Secretary General of the party in the country where it was founded, while Saddam just was a member in a "subsidiary-party". You might also compare Saddam Hussein al-Takriti with Nicolae Ceaucescu, who developed similar psychological notions.
 
NAV20
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 163):
All I've been saying here is that I don't think Iraq is worth another American life.

Don't know why you keep repeating that in every post, UALPHLCS?

I don't think many people are disagreeing with you that the sooner the Americans - and ALSO the British, Australians, Poles, Danes, and all the other Coalition people - are out of there, the better. The old saying is, "It's no use flogging a dead horse." We've been defeated, and that's all there is to it.

[Edited 2007-04-26 15:06:25]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
blrsea
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 166):
The old saying is, "It's no use flogging a dead horse." We've been defeated, and that's all there is to it.

That is the bone of contention b/w Bush/Iraq war supporters and others Big grin
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:01 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 166):
We've been defeated, and that's all there is to it.

We haven't been defeated. We finished the mission. Anything now is hanging on for no good reason. That's the crux of my argument.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
NAV20
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 166):
The old saying is, "It's no use flogging a dead horse."



Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 168):
Anything now is hanging on for no good reason.

Really don't see where we're disagreeing, UALPHLCS?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:19 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 164):
No, the Ba'ath Party IS a LEFT-wing party.

This is simply incorrect.

To 'Aflaq, Arab Socialism was a necessary consequence of the quest for Arab unity and freedom, as only a socialist system of property and development would overcome the social and economic legacy of colonialism. At the same time, he vigorously rejected orthodox Marxism, considering its materialist, internationalist and atheist foundations ill-adapted to the Arab situation.

Their ideology blended non-Marxist socialism and nationalism.

The Nazis while vigorously anti-communist were non-Marxist socialist.

The other key element comparing the two is the Nationalist elements in their ideology.

As for the historical comparisons to Stalin rather than Hitler, that is true in many respects. There are always historical comparisons to be made. Just as in the "10 steps to Fascism in America" thread Naomi Wolf is drawing historical comparisons between Fascist dictatorships and the Bush Administration.

Baathism is an ideology all it's own, make no mistake, but the point I was trying to make is that the historical model of Germany is and was the best model available. To have predicted the Iraqi people would have rejected their previously secular society and descended into sectarian barbarism would have been considered racist prior to the invasion. Now the people who would have made those claims casually state that it was clear that that was what was going to happen. Which is an insult to the Iraqis.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
deltadc9
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:24 pm

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 158):
What do you mean that rules of engagement are crippling?

The transition form war to occupation changes the rules of engagement, and when you have a situation like Iraq where wartime rules are needed because of all the insurgent flare ups, it puts our troops at risk.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 158):
Fact is that US army had never trained for counter-insurgency oeprations in urban/populated areas, the way UK or Indian forces have.

I do not believe this is true.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 158):
The Iraqi army and police were disbanded by Paul Bremer, the viceroy of Iraq in his urge to de-Baathify the country. Unfortunately, what he ignored inspite of repeated requests was that many of the people were forced to become baath party members to get jobs or go up in the ladder. Suddenly, you lost a large number of soldiers and policemen who were trained to do their job and who had experience. Recruiting new people and training them from ground-up wasn't something very practical, and given that insurgency had greatly picked up by then and many were threatened for working with Americans and many lost their nerve, they just deserted.

Agreed.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 158):
but then given the lack of analysis before going to war, and lack of post-war operations, this was to be expected.

There is no way you can support this claim.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 152):
Democrats in both 2000 and 2004 chose a most viable candidate.

No they did not. One EASY example of this was the DNC telling Evan Bayh not to run. Here is a Democrat from Indiana who was a very popular two term Governor of a VERY conservative state that goed 'red' first in every election. His dad Birch Bayh was just as popular and also a two time Governer of Indiana. Both are respected national figures in the Democratic party and in general.

Evan graduated with honors in business economics and public policy from the Indiana University Kelley School of Business in 1978 (One of the most respected programs in the world), where he was a member of Phi Kappa Psi, and received his Juris Doctor degree from the University of Virginia in 1981. He clerked for a federal court judge and entered a private law practice in Indianapolis.

Bayh was first elected Governor of Indiana in 1988, defeating Frank O'Bannon in the primary, and defeating John Mutz in the general election. O'Bannon went on to become Bayh's lieutenant governor. He was re-elected governor in 1992 with the highest percentage of the vote in a statewide election in modern Indiana history. His administration was considered cautious but successful (even by Republicans in the state), creating a large state surplus and permitting him to cut taxes. "Mr. Bayh's record is one of a genuinely fiscally conservative Democrat," reported the Wall Street Journal in 1992. (EXACTLY WHAT THE US NEEDS)

Bayh is a member of several Senate committees and subcommittees. These include positions on the Senate Special Committee on Aging , the Committee on Armed Services , including the subcommittes on Airland, Readiness and Management Support , and Emerging Threats and Capabilities. Bayh is also a member of the Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs , including the subcommittees on Financial Institutions, Securities and Investment, and the subcommittee on International Trade and Finance, of which he is the chair.

Bayh also holds a seat on the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence , and the Committee on Small Business and Entrepreneurship.

So you are telling me a popular Democrat from one of the most Republican states with armed services committee experience and all the othere stuff and the proven ability to win in the midwest is a better candidate than the two clowns they put up the last two elections? If so you clearly do not understand the US.

This conservative would vote for him in a heartbeat. As a Hoosier, I have actually met the man and he is by far the most suited for the Presidency of any candidate I am aware of from any party. And yet they tell him to wait because this is Hillarys year.

Unbelieveable.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 151):
Relative to the purgatory the Republicans are heading for, the Democrats have an embarrassment of riches by comparison.

And they will probably ignore them again.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
NAV20
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 170):
To have predicted the Iraqi people would have rejected their previously secular society and descended into sectarian barbarism would have been considered racist prior to the invasion.

It WAS predicted. The US backed the Shi'ites (who are very much in thrall to their clerics, who generally favour an Islamic Republic) and the Kurds, who want an independent state (plus large chunks of Turkey and Syria). It was quite obvious that once the existing secular government (led by the Ba'athists) was destroyed, the country would descend into factional strife and eventually wind up as an Islamic republic.

But surely 'what went wrong' is a matter for the historians to thrash out? Isn't the important thing is to get all those blokes out of there - soon?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 10:53 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 170):
The Nazis while vigorously anti-communist were non-Marxist socialist.

a rather adventureous definition. They were NOT socialist, but clearly right-leaning right from the start.
-

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 170):
but the point I was trying to make is that the historical model of Germany is and was the best model available.

no, the best historical model is the Risorgimento of Italy under Duke Cavour and Vittorio Emmanuele III . And in case of Germany, the unification of 1871 would be the idea, with Reichskanzler von Bismarck the key figure.
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Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 170):
To have predicted the Iraqi people would have rejected their previously secular society and descended into sectarian barbarism

I would NOT generalize in that way. THE Iraqi PEOPLE have not done so at all. It is sections of that people who have done so, and when Stalin said that the power comes out of the gun-barrels, then it today rather is that much power emanates from applied explosives. The major point is that the Ba'ath Party should be officially re-admitted, giving people a real alternative to the clericalists having such a heavy role. AND, if whomever would succeed in re-establishing order and security/safety in the cities, the city-dwellers could in the next elections participate in the elections, which would lead to quite some changes.
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Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 171):
And yet they tell him to wait because this is Hillarys year.

As I admittedly did NOT know more than his name before reading your post, I do NOT know whether he would have MORE chances to win than Hillary. What I however DO know is that keeping somebody off the primaries indeed is a stupid thing. What I however referred to is that Messrs Gore and Kerry were viable and good candidates. Their choice of VP candidates was not particularily a lucky one. I think that particularily Edwards was disappointing by not even get a single southern state. I think that Wesley Clark would have got at least one or rather two or three such states into the "basked" of Kerry.
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Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 171):
the two clowns

well, I would NOT describe Messrs Gore and Kerry as clowns, neither would all those who voted for them, 50% in case of Al Gore and 48% for John Kerry. I mean, 48% means to lose an election, but it is a very good result nevertheless.
-
 
blrsea
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:06 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 171):
There is no way you can support this claim.

US had no postwar plan, says Blair memo

Quote:
A memorandum written by Tony Blair's Cabinet Office for the British Prime Minister eight months before the Iraq war warned that the Americans had not planned at all on the possible problems of a postwar occupation.

In its introduction, the memo, Iraq: Conditions for Military Action, notes that US "military planning for action against Iraq is proceeding apace", but adds that "little thought" has been given to, among other things, "the aftermath and how to shape it".

"A postwar occupation of Iraq could lead to a protracted and costly nation-building exercise," warned the memorandum, prepared on July 21, 2002.

"As already made clear, the US military plans are virtually silent on this point," it said.
...


Read Rajeev Chandrashekar's book that I had linked earlier, just go through the comments on Amazon.com if you don't believe me. He lived in the green zone for two years and saw how badly things were planned and executed. Did you know that the only qualification required to work there was to be a republican and voting Bush? Seasoned middle-east experts in DoS were ignored and people sent to Iraq were vetted by DoD chiefs and DoS people were deliberately sidelined.

I too was initially blinded by the US media blitz on how well the war was going on. Reading this book and other books available now opened my eyes to how incompetent the US really was. And I was surprised that something like this could happen in US given my pleasant experience in US.

From one of the reviews of the book as I don't have the book with me now...

Quote:
Anther humorous story was in the hiring decisions of the CPA. One would think that if you were going to redesign a whole country you would bring your best and brightest. No, that wasn't the case with the CPA. Only the best connected were hired. Frequently the CPA staffers were sons and daughters of Republican contributors back home. Their stint with the CPA was their first real job out of college. Experience or education in the field didn't matter. One guy was hired whose previous work experience was driving an ice cream truck. The person in charge of designing the new stock market didn't have any job experience in the field nor a degree in business or finance.

The author also brings to light the effect of environment on decision making in the CPA. The CPA flew into Baghdad with their "dreams" but it didn't reflect upon the environment. They treated it like a game they played at the international club back at Yale, not reality where people were dying every day. . Few CPA staffers would leave the coalition space called the green zone. They immersed themselves in American culture. They did not take time to understand the real environment of Iraq. Then they would try to force American solutions to Iraqi problems without even talking to the Iraqis.

They totally lacked the ability to see what was happening around them. Frequently this blindness was humorous. It was almost like Baghdad Bob in reverse. The CPA would spout how life was good in Iraq because of them while fierce battles raged mere miles from where they stood. They seemed to be totally blind to how life for the average citizen in Iraq had actually grown worse under CPA rule. However they the CPA press releases would be quick to bring up some small fact like immunizations given. These press releases were given to an Iraqi public that were sitting in the dark, morning the loss of a relative, or dodging shrapnel in the streets.
 
blrsea
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu Apr 26, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 170):
To have predicted the Iraqi people would have rejected their previously secular society and descended into sectarian barbarism would have been considered racist prior to the invasion. Now the people who would have made those claims casually state that it was clear that that was what was going to happen. Which is an insult to the Iraqis.

This shows the complete absence of any historical analysis of Iraq that I have alluded to earlier. The Iraqi population was kept in check by a strong armed dictator. There was tensions between shias, sunnis and the kurds. It wasn't a secret but well known to everyone. If the adminstration had listened to its own DoS or talked to its ally( poodle?) UK, they could have got some idea on how Iraq was cobbled together, the fissures in its society and how best to avoid complete break down of relations. Unfortunately, the neo-cons were totally confident of their half-baked assumptions and are now forced to eat humble pie.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 173):
They were NOT socialist,

You define socialism as right or left. That is to narrow a definition. The Nazi Party clearly had socialist policies. The while the state did not own the means of production as in a communist system, the economy was planned. The Society was planned, with and eye toward social and economic prosperity for Germans. The Social fabric of society was controlled an planned by the Party's ideology.

Which is why SOCIALIST is in the name of the Nazi Party. The biggest difference is that National Socialism is nationalistic while Communism is internationalist. The other difference was the consolidation of power into the arms of one leader. While Communism gives lip-service to collective decision making, in reality under the best of circumstances Marxist-Leninism in the Soviet Union was an Oligarchy dominated by the Politburo. Under the worse cases there was very little difference other than ideological between Nazi German and the Soviet Union.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 175):
The Iraqi population was kept in check by a strong armed dictator. There was tensions between shias, sunnis and the kurds. It wasn't a secret but well known to everyone

This is exactly what I'm talking about. To assume these people couldn't overcome those differences paints them as three hopelessly uncivilized groups forever at war with one another, and only tyranny can cow them into submission. That's thinking the worse of them. Now it turns out that that's exactly what they are. Hopelessly devoted to killing one another even at the expense of their own prosperity. They proved that to the world over the past 3 years. But to proceed under that assumption is cynical and racist.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
blrsea
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:12 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 176):
But to proceed under that assumption is cynical and racist.

It is not an assumption, but a conclusion arrived at by studying the historical relations between different groups. One can't assume things when you are going to a war.

If US had not invaded Iraq, the divisions might or might not have been so sharp and violent. The fact is that insurgents and other countries are fanning the dispute between different sects. If the US had a good handle on things after deposing Saddam, things might not have turned out this way. The blunders of US turned out to be a boon to the insurgents who would alternately kill sunnis and shias and exacerbate the tensions and violence.
 
deltadc9
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 175):
Unfortunately, the neo-cons were totally confident of their half-baked assumptions and are now forced to eat humble pie.

Why incite with stupid phrases like neo-con?

The Pentagon is not a partisan entity. Congress voted for the war, and I seriously it is not the Job og the exectutive or legislative branch to plan military operations.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 175):
If the adminstration had listened to its own DoS or talked to its ally( poodle?) UK, they could have got some idea on how Iraq was cobbled together, the fissures in its society and how best to avoid complete break down of relations.

I find that offensive and I am not even remotely British in ancestry.

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 174):
I too was initially blinded by the US media blitz on how well the war was going on

I was not blinded, I was realistic, when has an occupation gone good? Unrealistic expectations aside, you simply cannot know what was and was not plannned for in the Pentagon.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 173):
I would NOT describe Messrs Gore and Kerry as clowns, neither would all those who voted for them

Actually quite wrong.

Many of my freinds that are liberals were not excited at who was running and voted AGAINST the republicans and not FOR the Democrats. This is a commonly held opinion all over the US. One of my most liberal hippie Berkley friends used that exact term, "clowns", but of course, he would melt like the wicked witch or his head would explode of he even thought about punching a republican hole.

A sitting VP of one of the most popular presidents in recent times should have won by a landslide (Same reason Bush Sr got elected). Kerry was simply not viable and got votes because of the anti war movement, not because of who he is.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:45 am

Some things for the records, first the hint that the presidents between 1958 and 1979 were dictactors, but not tyrants like Saddam Hussein al-Takriti, second the constitution of the Kingdom of Iraq (between 1925 and 1958) which was far from tyrannical : www.geocities.com/dagtho/iraqiconst19250321.html and here the history of the Iraqi 2-chamber parliament between 1925 and 1958, for 53 years :
--
An elected Iraqi parliament first formed following the establishment of a constitutional monarchy in 1925. The 1925 constitution called for a bicameral parliament whose lower house, the Chamber of Deputies (Majlis an-Nuwwab) would be elected based on universal manhood suffrage. The upper house, the Senate (Majlis al-A'yan) was appointed by the king. Ten elections took place between 1925 and the coup of 1958. [1]

On January 17, 1953 elections for the Chamber of Deputies (also known as the National Assembly) took place. Following controversy over the implementation of the so-called Baghdad Pact, Prime Minister Nuri Pasha as-Said called elections the following year, in early 1954. As-Said dissolved the assembly shortly thereafter and began to rule by decree, but opposition forced him to hold a third election within three years. The second 1954 election was very corrupt, with as-Said's political enemies banned from running, and widespread voter coercion. The assembly was suspended yet again, and in 1958 a military coup deposed as-Said and the monarchy, and abolished the parliament.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
As can be seen, the matter started to derail in 1953 and finally collapsed in 1958. Main problem was the Baghdad Pact in which Nuri es-Sa'id started to ally Iraq with Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, the U.K. and the USA, in contradiction to the conditions of the Arab League.
-
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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But all these things show that while Iraq for sure IS a problematic country, people were able to live peacefully together also under a fairly liberal framework.
-
 
AGM100
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:27 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 161):
In spite of the fact, that much of that "Iraq-business" is (messily) conducted by the USA, Iraq is of minor relevance in reality to the USA, but of prime importance in the longer term for both the Arab World and Europe (Russia INCluded)

Agreed , then why was this "Importance" not recognized from the beginning ? I guess they were happy with the Status quo of Saddams Regime. If this is the case then why all the UN sanctions that served only to weaken Saddam and push the country towards a eventual power change. A power change in Iraq IMO would have been violent anyway ... then what ?

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 161):
the struggle against organisations like el-Qaeda is and ought to be police-work.

IMO , Defeating the ideals of Al Qada is best done by spreading democracy and "freedom" . I know its way to much to dream that it could happen. But hey at least we go down trying it agian..

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 161):
if they try to "win" they will be curbed very swiftly.

Really ? So the fact that no one is currbing them now should be seen that we are fighting some unseen puppet master ? Make no mistake the day we annonce we are pulling out their will dancing in the streets of every capital in the Islamic world. Then they will all go back to their lives.... and continue to blame us for their problems.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 179):
But all these things show that while Iraq for sure IS a problematic country, people were able to live peacefully together also under a fairly liberal framework.

So the assumption that Iraq would naturally fall into sectarian chaos without a firm hand is incorrect.

The Optimistic assumption made by the administration that the three groups could co-exist under a liberal democracy was not an asinine conclusion.

The Administration looked at Iraq's history and rather than take a hard-line approach gave the Iraqis more credit for living peaceably than they deserved as it would come show.

Faulting the "neo-cons" then for this policy is the wrong conclusion. The historical data they had suggested that Iraq WOULD NOT descend into chaos. As your statement above points out. That the Iraqis have allowed themselves to be whipped into a frenzy by demagogues and Insurgents, was NOT a foregone conclusion. Blrsea's points are in fact 20/20 hindsight.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
deltadc9
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 181):
Faulting the "neo-cons" then for this policy is the wrong conclusion. The historical data they had suggested that Iraq WOULD NOT descend into chaos. As your statement above points out. That the Iraqis have allowed themselves to be whipped into a frenzy by demagogues and Insurgents, was NOT a foregone conclusion. Blrsea's points are in fact 20/20 hindsight.

Give the man a Beer!
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Falcon84
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 12:17 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 181):
The historical data they had suggested that Iraq WOULD NOT descend into chaos

What historical data are you referring to? Source, please?

The historical precident should have been Yugoslavia, which Iraq shared a lot of the same criteria for such a disaster: religious/political/social factions that have hated each other for a long time; only thing holding it together was a strongman with a frightening internal security system, and a fairly large military; instability in the naton below the upper echelon of leadership. Both were ripe for what happened when the strong dicator was removed, and chaos was allowed to reign.

So, to say historical date supported the conclusion that Iraq wouldn ot descend into chaos is, in my view, totally unjustified, and totally removed from reality. To the contrary, the data should have concluded the opposite. But, gee, Paul Bremer at least got a medal for helping to unleash the chaos and killing that now reigns in Iraq.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:02 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 183):

Read the thread Falson84. We've been talking about historical models the entire time.

So according to your hypothesis human beings when given freedom from dictatorships will naturally revert to the blood fueds and sectarian chaos of history.

What a sad and cynical view of human beings you must have Falcon84.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
NAV20
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:03 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 178):
The Pentagon is not a partisan entity. Congress voted for the war, and I seriously it is not the Job og the exectutive or legislative branch to plan military operations.



Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 178):
Unrealistic expectations aside, you simply cannot know what was and was not plannned for in the Pentagon.

I think it's unfair to blame the military for the mess, DeltaDC9. Planning the military operation was a job for the military; planning the 'peace' was the job of the Administration.

We know that the advice the Administration got was that 500,000 troops would be required to occupy Iraq. They didn't have them; so Rumsfeld pressed for 'Iraq Lite' and Bush/Cheney/Bremer planned to set up a 'puppet government' headed by Chalabi, hoping to avoid the need for full-scale occupation.

They persisted in their efforts to set up puppets for two years or more; then 'fell back' on elections based on proportional representation, hand-picking the eligible candidates to make sure that, effectively, no ex-Ba'athists, and precious few Sunnis, even got to stand. So the 'Iraqi Government' - then and now - turned out to be dominated by the Shi'ite clerics and the Kurds. The two groups who had actually been TRYING to de-stabilise Iraq for many years past.

No wonder it's a mess..........

[Edited 2007-04-27 06:10:05]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:51 pm

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 180):
Agreed , then why was this "Importance" not recognized from the beginning ? I guess they were happy with the Status quo of Saddams Regime. If this is the case then why all the UN sanctions that served only to weaken Saddam and push the country towards a eventual power change. A power change in Iraq IMO would have been violent anyway ... then what ?

Most Arab and European countries in question hoped to achieve a toppling of Saddam, without a military conflict and without an occupation. Ironic is that one of the contenders of those days for the succession of Saddam may in the end land up in the top position later on: Izzat Ibrahim el-Douri .
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 180):
Really ? So the fact that no one is currbing them now should be seen that we are fighting some unseen puppet master ? Make no mistake the day we annonce we are pulling out their will dancing in the streets of every capital in the Islamic world. Then they will all go back to their lives.... and continue to blame us for their problems.

They have an enormous "violence-potential" and the power to disturb, but not real power. And as soon as the US are out, a new ruler will use appropriate and well proven methods to get rid of them in due course.
-

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 181):
But all these things show that while Iraq for sure IS a problematic country, people were able to live peacefully together also under a fairly liberal framework.
--
So the assumption that Iraq would naturally fall into sectarian chaos without a firm hand is incorrect.
--
The Optimistic assumption made by the administration that the three groups could co-exist under a liberal democracy was not an asinine conclusion.
--
The Administration looked at Iraq's history and rather than take a hard-line approach gave the Iraqis more credit for living peaceably than they deserved as it would come show.

-
Right. Did I object to certain specifics of the US administration of Iraq ? Yes. BUT, did I expect anything of the magnitude of what happens now ? NO . Did I expect sectarian clashes of the way it happened recently ? NO
-- to differentiate is a must .
-

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 181):
That the Iraqis have allowed themselves to be whipped into a frenzy by demagogues and Insurgents

it is NOT T H E Iraqis, it just is an incredible and rather "unhealthy" number of people in Iraq who did so -- by that I mean a few hundreds, or maybe thousands
-

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 184):
hand-picking the eligible candidates to make sure that, effectively, no ex-Ba'athists, and precious few Sunnis, even got to stand. So the 'Iraqi Government' - then and now - turned out to be dominated by the Shi'ite clerics and the Kurds.

the defacto support of the USA for the Shi'ite clerics is unbelievable. People in the US administration quite obviously believe that those Ayatollahs like al-Sistani and Hakim were friends of the USA, while they in deep reality detest the USA. Nobody in the USA realized why Imam el-Sadr when being chased always escaped. The simple reason is that Imam el-Sadr is a subordinate to his direct superior, Ayatollah al-Sistani, who of course appropriately advised him. Hakim recently visited Bush in Washington, and since that moment, the problems have increased. Sheer coincidence in this ?  Yeah sure
-
 
blrsea
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:56 pm

Ex-C.I.A. Chief, in Book, Assails Cheney on Iraq

Quote:
George J. Tenet, the former director of central intelligence, has lashed out against Vice President Dick Cheney and other Bush administration officials in a new book, saying they pushed the country to war in Iraq without ever conducting a “serious debate” about whether Saddam Hussein posed an imminent threat to the United States.

...

“There was never a serious debate that I know of within the administration about the imminence of the Iraqi threat,” Mr. Tenet writes in a devastating judgment that is likely to be debated for many years. Nor, he adds, “was there ever a significant discussion” about the possibility of containing Iraq without an invasion.
...

But Mr. Tenet largely endorses the view of administration critics that Mr. Cheney and a handful of Pentagon officials, including Paul D. Wolfowitz and Douglas J. Feith, were focused on Iraq as a threat in late 2001 and 2002 even as Mr. Tenet and the C.I.A. concentrated mostly on Al Qaeda.
 
baroque
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 7:47 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 184):
What a sad and cynical view of human beings you must have Falcon84.

Yes Falcon84, you definitely must stop having your feet on the ground and having expectations that are close to reality!!  Smile  Big grin  angel 

I don't quite see why use of Jugoslavia as a model is unrealistic, its use was very popular at the time. The terms Balkanization goes back to the 1912-13 Balkan wars.

A prediction of what would happen in Iraq is given in a "not so funny cos parts of it are true" game that was posted before the invasion of Iraq.
http://www.idleworm.com/nws/2002/11/iraq2.shtml
Obviously it is wrong it detail, and so far most of the worst outcomes have yet to happen. However, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon and Pakistan probably all have more problems now than the did in early 2003. And the fat lady has yet to sing.
 
Falcon84
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:01 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 184):
So according to your hypothesis human beings when given freedom from dictatorships will naturally revert to the blood fueds and sectarian chaos of history.

What a sad and cynical view of human beings you must have Falcon84.

Cyniical? Call it cold-sober reality, my friend. How often have we seen it? WWI was started by such hatreds; Yugoslavia collapsed because of it; Iraq is falling apart because of it. You're trying to juxtapose the fact that you were born into freedom, to justify the view that all people should just acceplt such freedom as the norm, and often they do not.

It isn't cynical at all, what I'm suggesting. It's grounded in a sad truth . It's been born out over and over in the history of mankind.

You, on the other hand, are trying to deny the truth of the matter, which, I suspect, is what the Administration was doing when it let that medal-wearing Paul Bremer dismantel the entire security apparatus.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
deltadc9
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:54 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 185):
then 'fell back' on elections based on proportional representation

Elections were planned from the beginning, it was not a plan b. And I was not blaming the Pentagon, war is messy, and unpredictable.

Also, it is the job of the Pentagon to plan and execute the occupation. Planning the peace is not relevant yet.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Falcon84
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Fri Apr 27, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 189):
Also, it is the job of the Pentagon to plan and execute the occupation.

Gee, I thought there wasn't supposed to be an occupation? We wern't supposed to lable this an "occupying force".  Yeah sure

In any even, the Pentagon did a lousy job of planning that part of it. Perhaps because all the pie-in-the sky projections were based on "Mission Accomplished" back in 2003.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Dougloid
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:13 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 184):
They persisted in their efforts to set up puppets for two years or more; then 'fell back' on elections based on proportional representation, hand-picking the eligible candidates to make sure that, effectively, no ex-Ba'athists, and precious few Sunnis, even got to stand. So the 'Iraqi Government' - then and now - turned out to be dominated by the Shi'ite clerics and the Kurds. The two groups who had actually been TRYING to de-stabilise Iraq for many years past.

I think you associate 'stability' with brutal repression of everyone else by the Sunnis, there Mr. 20. That has been the story of Iraq for the last sixty years. Why anyone in Iraq pays any deference to them now is beyond me.

Oh yes, it was stability of a sort. Adolf, Josef, Benito, Franco, Pol Pot and Chairman Mao would have approved of Saddam al Takriti.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:28 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 192):
brutal repression of everyone else by the Sunnis

as shown above, this was NOT so in such a way. For decades, everybody, including Jewish communists, were in the democratic parliament in Baghdad (1925-1958). And it was NOT by "THE Sunnis" anyway. It is noteworthy that many of the cronies of Saddam were Shi'ites and Christians, and the idea was not to oppress another religious group, the idea was to exert power and oppress whomever opposed the political regime .
 
Arrow
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:34 am

First Tenet dumps all over Cheney for pushing the US into war without an analysis of the real threat Saddam posed, now a senior officer (still on active duty) craps all over the generals for a combination of poor planning and woefully inadequate communications. In their defense, it must have been hard to tell Rumsfeld,Cheney et al what they didn't want to hear. This is what happens when you let mindless ideologues run the show.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl...raq0427/BNStory/International/home

"An active U.S. Army officer warns that the United States faces the prospect of defeat in Iraq, blaming American generals for failing to prepare their forces for an insurgency and misleading Congress about the situation here.

“For reasons that are not yet clear, America's general officer corps underestimated the strength of the enemy, overestimated the capabilities of Iraq's government and security forces, and failed to provide Congress with an accurate assessment of security conditions in Iraq,” Lieutenant-Colonel Paul Yingling said in the article published Friday in the Armed Forces Journal.

Several retired generals have made similar comments, but such public criticism from an active officer is rare. It suggests that misgivings about the conduct of the Iraq war are widespread in the officer corps at a critical time in the troubled U.S. military mission here."
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2811
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 191):
Gee, I thought there wasn't supposed to be an occupation? We wern't supposed to lable this an "occupying force".

A rose is still a rose.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 191):
In any even, the Pentagon did a lousy job of planning that part of it.

Name one post war scenario that went smoothly in all of history. You cant plan for something that cannot happen.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 194):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 191):
Gee, I thought there wasn't supposed to be an occupation? We wern't supposed to lable this an "occupying force".

A rose is still a rose.

More like stinkweed, if you ask me.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 194):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 191):
In any even, the Pentagon did a lousy job of planning that part of it.

Name one post war scenario that went smoothly in all of history.

Keep you head buried in the sand, friend. They did a lousy job. There's no doubt they did almost no planning for what would happen after Baghdad fell; they didn't plan for an insurgency. People don't like being occupied, no matter who their leader was, and no matter the intentions of the occupier. Ask the Wermacht soldiers about that, after the Soviet People, who despised Stalin, rose up anyway when he called for the defense of the homeland. People do NOT like being dictated to by a foreign power. That's human nature, and there's no doubt 1600 Pennsylvania and the Pentagon never even considered it, imho.

So, keep the blinders on. This conflict was woefully planned from the get-go. And no amount of apologizing on your part or anyone's part can change that cold, hard fact.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 189):
Cyniical? Call it cold-sober reality, my friend. How often have we seen it?



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 193):
For decades, everybody, including Jewish communists, were in the democratic parliament in Baghdad (1925-1958). And it was NOT by "THE Sunnis" anyway. It is noteworthy that many of the cronies of Saddam were Shi'ites and Christians, and the idea was not to oppress another religious group, the idea was to exert power and oppress whomever opposed the political regime .

As ME AVN FAN points out with his example, your assessment is 20/20 hindsight. You want to continue to skewer the Administration when the historical data suggested that Iraq was not a country necessarily doomed to sectarian chaos. In fact as ME AVN FAN shows the regime prior to the Ba'ath Party take over was secular and cooperative without the use of a strong man. The Yugoslavia model doesn't fit. So the Administration's predictions were based on the best information available at the time. None of which predicted the sectarian violence, except those who think Human beings just can't get along with out a tyrant to keep them apart. Your not saying that are you?
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 197):
You want to continue to skewer the Administration when the historical data suggested that Iraq was not a country necessarily doomed to sectarian chaos.

Yes, dammit, I'll continue to skewer them, because there was no doubt going in that Iraq, with three major Religious/ethinic factions in the nation, whom didn't like each other, had the potentional for this, and the LAST thing that should have been done, is dismantling the entire security appratus. Hell, even in WWII, we kept some of the security infrastructure intact in post-war Germany.

I'll stand by it.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 197):
The Yugoslavia model doesn't fit.

Obviously, event have confirmed that the Yugoslavia model DOES fit. Or, are you blind to what is going on there right now?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:30 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 197):

Ahh Falcon84.

Did you read ME AVN FANs post?

Iraq had no history of sectarian violence. It wasn't a foregone conclusion. Your projecting your own dark view of humanity on the situation, and claiming that your view was obvious PRIOR to the invasion.

Tragically the Iraqi people have allowed themselves to descend into chaos. It was not a foregone conclusion that they would do so.

You are blaming the Administration simply because they thought the Iraqis were better than you think they are. How very little you must think of them.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.

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