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Falcon84
Posts: 13775
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:18 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 199):
Iraq had no history of sectarian violence. It wasn't a foregone conclusion.

I never said it was a foregone conclusion, but when you have groups of people that are known to not like each other-and face it, the Kurds, Sunni's and the Shi'ia aren't exactly on friendly terms in the Arab World-then it should have been considered a REAL POSSIBILITY. I agree it wasn't a foregone conclusion, but it doesn't even seem to have been something that the Administration and the military brass considered, and you have got to admit that it should have been at least looked into.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 199):
You are blaming the Administration simply because they thought the Iraqis were better than you think they are. How very little you must think of them.

 rotfl 

YOU are the one saying they're not worth our help, not me. I think they do have hope, if we remain true to trying to make the best of the situation, and trying to turn the situation around. I don't know if we can do it, but I think we have got to continue to try. We cannot keep it open-ended, but we still owe it to those Americans who have died there, and to the Iraqi people, who's nation we invaded and occupied without just cause.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
baroque
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:56 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 193):
First Tenet dumps all over Cheney for pushing the US into war without an analysis of the real threat Saddam posed, now a senior officer (still on active duty) craps all over the generals for a combination of poor planning and woefully inadequate communications. In their defense, it must have been hard to tell Rumsfeld,Cheney et al what they didn't want to hear. This is what happens when you let mindless ideologues run the show.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servl.../home

Interesting link Arrow. There is an article in todays SMH about the role of lies in the lead up.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/one...14.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
I am not sure if it is general access - even registered I had quite a time finding it on the website!
The byline summarises most of it:
"Few governments have invested so much into deceiving the public, and ended up so disastrously deceiving itself. Rod Tiffen writes."
He gives some detail on the various folk that the US admin decided to believe. Perhaps the most interesting is not Curveball and his mobile labs but the saga of al-Libi
"Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi had been a major figure in al-Qaeda, and was picked up by Pakistani forces in December 2001 and handed over to the Americans. He was being interrogated in Afghanistan by the FBI, and his interrogator had made good rapport and was gaining excellent information from him about al-Qaeda.
Al-Libi denied any contact between al-Qaeda and Iraq. Then in a bureaucratic turf war, the CIA prevailed and al-Libi was taken out of the FBI's hands and flown to Egypt as part of the CIA's extraordinary rendition program, a program that has been associated with widespread suspicions of torture.
Al-Libi now maintained that Iraq had given training in chemical and biological weapons to al-Qaeda. Some in the US intelligence community were sceptical, noting the lack of specificity in his claims, and suspicious that he was saying what his debriefers wanted to hear.
Bush included the training claim in a major speech in October 2002, and Rice, the then defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, Cheney and Powell, all included it in public statements. Later al-Libi told the FBI that the claims were false: "They were killing me. I had to tell them something." Once removed from the danger of further torture, and after the war had begun, he retracted the claims, and the reversal was reported in The New York Times in July 2004. Eventually the CIA formally recalled all its reporting based on them. To my knowledge, none of the US leaders has ever publicly recanted their use of these claims."

This seems an excellent example of the dangers of relying on torture. Taking this history through to the present time suggests that the last thing that will emerge from the current administration is truth about the current state of the occupation.

In the absence of some sort of rational and accurate official account of the current state of affairs, how else can we form opinions about what to do NOW other than on the basis of those who do have a record of accuracy. And they have to be the likes of Paul McGeogh and Robert Fisk.

There usually is a price to be paid for lying. It is not only the US government that made an art form out of lying, Blair and Howard did the same for the UK and Australia respectively. Howard was commonly referred to in the 80s as Honest John, this being a ironical reference to his faint acquaintance with the truth. However Iraq has shown his true penchant for the terminological inexactitude.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 199):
We cannot keep it open-ended, but we still owe it to those Americans who have died there, and to the Iraqi people, who's nation we invaded and occupied without just cause.

And in the absence of reliable information from any of, the occupying governments and the Iraqi government, Al Qaeda and the Iranian Ayatollahs, it is really difficult to know how best to do that.
An obvious method would seem to be to cease the conditions under which Coalition forces are being killed and the Iraqi people are being killed at some multiple of that rate. The most obvious condition is the occupation itself.
Withdrawal from Vietnam produced conditions much better than anyone had dared to hope, of course it also produced much worse conditions in Cambodia than anyone's worst nightmares. Which rather suggests that we just do not know. We do know that the occupation is NOT a success.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 4:09 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 199):
to trying to make the best of the situation, and trying to turn the situation around. I don't know if we can do it, but I think we have got to continue to try. We cannot keep it open-ended

.
Not really. You CAN and OUGHT to keep it "open-ended" and get OUT. In the meantime, YOUR presence in that country is a major negative factor, whatever your troops do. That a majority of victims are locals is obvious, but such has been the truth in all conflicts in human history. The difference just is that it nowadays thanks to medern media gets reported, while in the old days, "Napoleon won the battle", "Wellington conquered ...." "General Blablabla withdrew", with the locals being un-noticed. HOW it is done is not easy, as the "organized retreat" usually is more difficult than to get forward. But you ought to do it. To repeat it, best would be if the USA A) handed over the military hardware to the new Iraqi Armed Forces, B) re-established artillery forces and the air-force, C) re-activated the officer corps of the "old" Iraqi armed forces
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That the USA would have talks about military co-operation with Iraqi generals is self-evident
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 200):
I agree it wasn't a foregone conclusion, but it doesn't even seem to have been something that the Administration and the military brass considered, and you have got to admit that it should have been at least looked into.

Who would have thought that three groups would ahve gone after one another when they where there when the US military just kicked the crap out of the military that was oppressing them? It seems the natural conclusion that these groups might not have wanted to start something witht he military around.

And they didn't for a good long while. It was simply Ba'athists in the begining.

Iraq only decended into chaos after the bombing of that Shia Shrine goaded them into this.That was in 2005 if I remember.

My point is that things were realtivly calm and under control and the plan was working. The Honets nest was kicked over by Insurgents not the US military.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
TransIsland
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 10:23 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
The world thought Saddam Hussein had WMD, not just the US.

Ahem.... The US and their pupp... eh, partners in the "Coalition of the Willing" *claimed* that Saddam had WMDs (later evidence shows conclusively that even the US knew this to be a lie. Most of the non-coalition countries did not believe the dossiers presented by the US administration.
I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:17 pm

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 204):
Ahem.... The US and their pupp... eh, partners in the "Coalition of the Willing" *claimed* that Saddam had WMDs (later evidence shows conclusively that even the US knew this to be a lie. Most of the non-coalition countries did not believe the dossiers presented by the US administration.

That's wrong.

French, German, Russian and Israeli Intelligence all thought there were WMDs in Iraq.

Your smartass comment about the US and it's puppies merely shows you like to see history through your own political lenses.

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"(Saddam) will rebuild his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and some day, some way, I am certain he will use that arsenal again, as he has 10 times since 1983" -- National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200401/pollack

Other nations' intelligence services were similarly aligned with U.S. views. Somewhat remarkably, given how adamantly Germany would oppose the war, the German Federal Intelligence Service held the bleakest view of all, arguing that Iraq might be able to build a nuclear weapon within three years. Israel, Russia, Britain, China, and even France held positions similar to that of the United States; France's President Jacques Chirac told Time magazine last February, "There is a problem---the probable possession of weapons of mass destruction by an uncontrollable country, Iraq. The international community is right ... in having decided Iraq should be disarmed." In sum, no one doubted that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

This from an article critical of the US intelligence prior to the invasion.

Stop relying on you political views of why the US went to war and do a little research finding that Atlantic article took me all of 5 minutes. And I wanted to find it from a NON-Conservative source so it took about 2 minutes longer.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:19 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 202):
the US military just kicked the crap out of the military that was oppressing them?

it has NOT been the armed forces who were oppressing people, but the secret service of Saddam. The secret of his rule was a dense network of secret service agents all over the country, into companies, into the state party, into the army, into the police-force, into the administration, into the education system. When he was toppled, those secret service people either "disappeared" or adopted a low profile. The resistance of most of the Iraqi armed forces was extremely mild, the only troops who tried to stop the allies seriously were some "Republican Guards" under the command of Saddam-loyal commanders.
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Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 202):
And they didn't for a good long while. It was simply Ba'athists in the begining.

This is unclear. It looks as if radical Ba'athists, radical fundamentalists, and radicals from elQaeda related organisations relatively early started violence. What exactly started the aggrevation of the situation in regard to anti-Shi'ite actions by radical Sunnis, and anti-Sunni actions by radical Shi'ites is NOT really clear. The information available, both from the US forces as well as from other sources and the media was contradictory and unclear.
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Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 202):
Iraq only decended into chaos after the bombing of that Shia Shrine

true, the bombing of that wonderful cultural diamond, which I hope will be restored to its former glory in spite of all problems, did give matters a bad kick. But also in this case, it remained unclear who exactly and why exactly did it, in spite of thousands of words written and spoken about the matter. Heaps of conclusions and tons of analysis but not much REAL info .
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Quoting TransIsland (Reply 203):
Saddam had WMDs

This in a way is beating a dead horse. There were arguments in favour of toppling Saddam, whenever not really in favour of a military invasion. In the old times, both the British Secret Service(s) and the CIA did conduct such things, and did NOT need a military invasion.
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flybyguy
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:06 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 148):
No. As Colin Powell once said: "Pottery barn rules apply: You break it, you own it!"

I can understand that the Democrats are keen on pinning the failure of Bush's Iraq war onto the tail end of his presidency instead of inheriting it for themselves (presumably), but not just the willing complicity most of them exhibited during the run-up to the invasion makes that approach smack quite a bit of hypocrisy.

Unfortunately, the mission objective has in practice degraded from "bringing democracy to Iraq" through "leavin Iraq at least halfway stable" to "let's at least rescue our own army from the ruins" or is at least on the way to there.

Your own military has been put through the grinder to an extent that this will turn into a rescue mission on their behalf eventually, and I'm afraid that point looks likely to come much earlier than a free, stable and blooming Iraq ever could.

This is probably the most clever assessment I've seen here yet.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 153):
Iraq is a side show Klaus , unfortunately the Dems in this country have tied it around their necks as the one thing to beat the GOP. Right now it is working with all the screaming and rooting for the enemy , but the rope will tighten on them.

I wouldn't go so far as saying American Democrats are "screaming and rooting for the enemy", but I do believe after their validation in the 2006 midterm elections they are simply dragging their feet... perhaps for political reasons. I look forward to the Iraq war to be something that Democrats will drag well into the 2008 elections. If they really wanted the war ended it should have taken them 2 months (or sooner) to send the Iraq spending bill to Bush not 5. At this point I believe immediate withdrawal is required. I think Iraq is beyond saving at this point and that the government and the people of Iraq no longer have the inclination or power to maintain peace and stability even with U.S. soldiers patrolling their streets.

Certainly, Colin Powell in his infinite wisdom was right again with applying the "Pottery Barn Rules" (you break it you buy it) to Iraq. I think we as the American people cannot divorce ourselves from the terrible tragedy that is Iraq. Our elected officials pronounced war on Iraq full well knowing the consequences of failure in terms of stability of the region... and our elected officials represent all of us whether we voted for them or not. Us Democrats as well as those who didn't vote in 2004 shoulder an even greater burden because Bush won the popular vote that time... even as an illegitimate war was being fought.

However, I think withdrawal is a double edged sword and Americans must be fully aware of the consequences. Surely, withdrawal will stop the ridiculous amounts of monthly wartime spending, spending that would be better served being invested into social programs, education, and perhaps economic growth in beleaguered American cities. Surely, withdrawal will save the lives of our remaining soldiers who were best used in the fight in Afghanistan. However the consequences of withdrawal in Iraq is a GUARANTEED bloodbath. Whomever is left in Iraq with power will use it to wage uninhibited war on their domestic enemies. On the announcement of withdrawal from Iraq... the Iraqi President as well as the whole of the U.S. appointed government will flee the country in fear of being slaughtered. With no one to control the army, I suspect it will disband and militias will be the norm unless Iran steps in for "humanitarian purposes". But I believe that Iran's intentions are clear once we leave Iraq their decades-long enemy Saddam is dead, the Americans are gone and now they are the primary political force in the region... absolutely nothing stopping them from creating a nuclear weapon and forcing America and the world to sit at their table with their tails between their legs. At home we WILL be facing new threats of terror, beyond those of today because we would have emboldened terrorist organizations with our departure from sinking Iraq (especially the ones we created with the turmoil in Iraq). I think the terror organizations that have focused on Iraq for the past 4 years will now focus on the U.S. and its interests. I sincerely hope our government will be capable of defending us against another 9-11, but as with the Columbine tragedy reborn at VT, such horrible acts are bound to be repeated because years of quiet lull everyone into complacency.

At this point, withdrawal is our only feasible option, but it comes with a heavy price of blood and irreparable political damage. I am fully aware of these potential consequences. Firstly I'm hoping and praying that I am wrong... but if I am right I hope and pray that all the others who rally for withdrawal will be able to stomach the new, more terrible world we will inherit.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 124):
Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 112):
Attacking Israel in 1948
Remaining a threat to Israel

-- Kuwait invaded in 1937 ????
-- In 1948, Iraq participated in an Arab attempt to help the Arabs in Palestine against that new UDI based state
-- Israel remained a threat after 1948 , true

 sarcastic  Every time I read it, MAF, your blood-hatred for Jews can't help but spoil out. Nice try on the twist, but, as always, you fail short. Not much happening against Israel lately - can't pump your fists in triumph over that, eh?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 142):
Insulting the victims of the completely incompetent and clueless invasion and occupation by telling them that it's actually all their own fault would be even more despicable and horrendous

It's definitely not the fault of the families, women and children who are subjected to while not participants of the violence.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 143):
Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 131):
Are you with Hamas or Hezbollah?

...sounds as rude and arrogant as anything else to me.....



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 162):
...no, I just called you on being a bit hypocritical..no "agendas" there...

:D Just for kicks, Jake.
https://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1462757/ AndesSMF asked in reply 43 if there was "an Israeli government you were not against", to which you did not reply.
htp://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1444601/ In reply 23, you remarked that you believe the land of Israel was "stolen" by the Jews, which was a reiteration of reply 60 from this next thread . . .
ttp://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1418377/

 scratchchin  A reason to wonder, I'd say, Jake.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 149):
UALPHLCS at least argues, even if we disagree on many things.

Where's some of your famous links, lately there, Klaus? That's some good chewin' material  spit  .

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 175):
There was tensions between shias, sunnis and the kurds. It wasn't a secret but well known to everyone. If the adminstration had listened to its own DoS or talked to its ally( poodle?) UK,



Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 181):
Faulting the "neo-cons" then for this policy is the wrong conclusion.

Whoa. Way disagree there. They instituted this whole policy in the first place.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 181):
That the Iraqis have allowed themselves to be whipped into a frenzy by demagogues and Insurgents, was NOT a foregone conclusion.

I defer to Falcon's remarks on that one.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 183):
only thing holding it together was a strongman with a frightening internal security system, and a fairly large military;



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 198):
there was no doubt going in that Iraq, with three major Religious/ethinic factions in the nation, whom didn't like each other, had the potentional for this, and the LAST thing that should have been done, is dismantling the entire security appratus



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 200):
it should have been considered a REAL POSSIBILITY.

Maybe nothing we as humans do is ever for sure until it's done, but not forseeing this was naive at the least. I sure hope the strategists didn't hope for Sunni, Shia and Kurd to sing "We are the world" and join arm-in-arm together. It was the whole reason there was a Sunni strongman to keep everyone at bay - a Shia one would have wiped out the minorities, and who knows what would have happened with a Kurd in there (maybe intervention from Turkey?).

-R
Living the American Dream
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sun Apr 29, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 207):
can't help but spoil out

there is no hate for Jews / Israelis from my side, you suffer from bouts of vivid imagination . I simply stated the other perspective, which may slightly differ from your perspective, nothing else  innocent   angel 
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NAV20
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Sun Apr 29, 2007 11:36 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 208):
Every time I read it, MAF, your blood-hatred for Jews can't help but spoil out.

Allstarflyer, how does criticising Israel equate to 'blood-hatred for Jews?'

If you in your turn are arguing that Israel (particularly its possession of illegal nuclear weapons) isn't a factor in the Middle-Eastern situation, that's a crazy viewpoint IMO.

As it happens I'm acquainted with three families from the Middle East (from the Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan) who came here to Australia to bring up their families in relative peace. They ALL say that the main reason for their decision was the impossibility of bringing up kids in an atmosphere of constant economic instability and actual or threatened Israeli military action.

A matter relevant to this discussion is that much of the 'instability' they talk about was caused by the need to accommodate vast numbers of penniless refugees who had fled from Palestine during the various wars. That problem is about to be redoubled as a result of Iraq; the UNHCR estimates that no less than 2 million Iraqis have already fled, mostly to Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon, and that more are leaving at a rate of about 50,000 a week.

There's no doubt that Israel is a 'political player' in the region, and that it represents a threat to all the other countries concerned because it has both nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them. None of that has to do with religion - it's to do with economics and politics.

[Edited 2007-04-29 04:37:30]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
allstarflyer
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:26 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 210):
Allstarflyer, how does criticising Israel equate to 'blood-hatred for Jews?'

Criticism of Israel's actions is sometimes something I've done. The latest twist by MAF, preceded by a more-than-noticeable pattern of remarks he's made in previous threads makes the indication unfortunately accurate.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
DC10extender
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:07 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 16):
Neither France nor Britain had even an inkling of democracy in their system in 1776.

He means Locke, Voltaire, etc.
Did you ever read on your birth certificate that life is fair? Thats cause its not there.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:51 am

Apart from the item from a serving officer telling us Iraq is all pear shaped the SMH for the day that will be followed by Walpurgis night offers the following.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/opinion/c...46.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
"Condi's star fades as US policy disintegrates
Michael Gawenda April 30, 2007 "
"In the months after George Bush appointed her Secretary of State in January 2005, Condoleezza Rice was a relentless traveller, always on a plane to somewhere and everywhere she went - in Europe or the Middle East or Asia - she was given star treatment.

Her self-proclaimed mission was to repair America's fractured relationships with its allies and to start the process of rebuilding America's international standing after the Bush Administration decided to go to war in Iraq without the support of the UN Security Council or key allies such as France and Germany."
.... "For all the razzle-dazzle of Rice's first year as Secretary of State, it is hard to think of any real and substantial achievements. Her "transformational diplomacy" in the Middle East has achieved virtually nothing. None of the region's leaders, it seems, takes her seriously. Bush's democracy project, which Rice embraced so enthusiastically, is virtually dead and buried."

That rather suggests that the organization that should be organizing Iraq in a broader context is essentially not doing very well, if indeed it is functioning at all.

I have asked in this thread a couple of times about news on the reconstruction. As there have been no offers, here is an article from the same issue of the SMH.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/us-...ures/2007/04/29/1177787974637.html
"US rebuilding projects in Iraq a list of failures
James Glanz in New York April 30, 2007
"FEDERAL inspectors have found that seven of eight projects in the US-funded rebuilding program in Iraq are failures, despite the US describing them as successes.

In a sampling check the inspectors found plumbing and electrical failures, lack of proper maintenance, evidence of looting and expensive equipment that lay idle."

And much more follows detailing failures. This sort of thing is not difficult to find. Is there any evidence of successes? I really would like to hear of some successes. If there are none, then I guess that should be acknowledged. And if there are no successes, then what reason is there to stay?

I begin to wonder if the Iraq campaign is being run by the ghost of Gen Westmoreland?
 
NAV20
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:14 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 212):
"FEDERAL inspectors have found that seven of eight projects in the US-funded rebuilding program in Iraq are failures, despite the US describing them as successes.

In a sampling check the inspectors found plumbing and electrical failures, lack of proper maintenance, evidence of looting and expensive equipment that lay idle."

Having had experience in managing large building/civil engineering projects, I can say that among your primary needs are skilled labour, large numbers of specialist sub-contractors, and effective supervisors. Since Bremer's first act was to 'close down' the whole Iraqi economy, such people would have become largely unobtainable from the start, even when things were relatively quiet.

Adding in the insurgency and sectarian strife that is now endemic means that even if you could locate and hire such people, they would not be able to travel safely to work and would be 'sitting ducks' while they were on site, working for the 'occupiers.'

In any case, people with the skills required are much more likely to emigrate and leave Iraq to its fate, since they can be virtually certain of getting a job in any other country they choose to go to. So all or most of them will already be 'long gone.'

Trouble is, anyone with any knowledge in the field could have told Bremer (and Halliburton) these 'facts of building life' on Day One of the occupation. It's not as if it's b****y rocket science........
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
baroque
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:11 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 214):
Trouble is, anyone with any knowledge in the field could have told Bremer (and Halliburton) these 'facts of building life' on Day One of the occupation. It's not as if it's b****y rocket science........

Indeed, it is not rocket science. However there are some on the thread who maintain that reconstruction is a positive factor. There seems to be little or no evidence that it is a positive but I am willing to believe if there is indeed such evidence.

I do not doubt that Iraq is a very difficult environment. Whether it is due to bloody mindedness on the part of Iraqis or Bremer's policies barely matters. It is outcomes that matter. I do not see positive ones and I just trying to give a chance for positive appraisals to appear.

The one stat that is available is oil production and that looks like a slight rise to Q3 2006 but a fall since then, latest data being for Jan 2007. Basically, there is no improvement in oil production since 2003 and it is still well below the levels in Saddam's time.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:03 pm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 211):
The latest twist

it is NOT a "twist" at all, it is something based on official politics of the League of Arab States in the late 1940ies and the 1950ies, which in those times was official politics also in Iraq. Nuri el-Sa'id in fact was a co-founder of the League.
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flyorski
Posts: 735
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:23 am

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:19 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
I assume your talking about Iraq being cobbled together by the British. This is very true. However, the same could be said about Germany, which has been cobbled together in various forms since the Treaty of Westphailia till World War II. Can you think of another European country thats borders have changes with more frequency than Germany? But that's a tangent we don't need to get into.

Germans feel UNITED. We do not have ancient rifts dating thousands of years back. (Except for those in Bayern  Wink JK)

For people who are interested in the technology happening in Iraq, check out this cool article.

http://rezendi.com/travels/bbbb.html

It also has some info on traveling in a black hawk chopper....kinda neat.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 216):
For people who are interested in the technology happening in Iraq, check out this cool article.

http://rezendi.com/travels/bbbb.html

It also has some info on traveling in a black hawk chopper....kinda neat.

Cool link, but I wonder how foreigners can up and find work there like that. I guess they just found a niche and made their connections.

Just arm the citizens. Give them a fighting chance to live. We'd see how willing the insurgents are to carry out attacks when they know they could be popped in the head at any given moment - could be a pretty empty feeling for them to know their glorious jihad might go unfulfilled.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
NAV20
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 218):
Just arm the citizens.

They're already armed, Allstarflyer. Saddam wasn't that much of a dictator, he let them keep weapons at home. You could say that their 'right to bear arms' wasn't infringed.  Smile They reckon that pretty well every household has at least got pistols, most have at least one Kalashnikov.

And Bremer did a SUPER job firing the Army and letting them take their weapons and ammunition home into unemployment.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:26 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 206):
What exactly started the aggrevation of the situation in regard to anti-Shi'ite actions by radical Sunnis, and anti-Sunni actions by radical Shi'ites is NOT really clear. The information available, both from the US forces as well as from other sources and the media was contradictory and unclear.

The situation was very manageable and controllable until the Mosque was bombed and the sectarian violence ramped up.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 200):
YOU are the one saying they're not worth our help, not me.

I'm saying they no longer are worthy of our help IMO. I refuse to have our soldiers continue to fight for people who have pissed away civilized behavior.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 200):
I think they do have hope, if we remain true to trying to make the best of the situation, and trying to turn the situation around. I don't know if we can do it, but I think we have got to continue to try. We cannot keep it open-ended, but we still owe it to those Americans who have died there, and to the Iraqi people, who's nation we invaded and occupied without just cause.

I'm confused then. You see, the Democrats say the American people want a new direction. That new direction they say is out. Timetables for withdrawl by any definition is not a new direction it's leaving. However, you're saying we have to stay Falcon84. So I'm not sure what the direction people outside of the Administration want?

I guess TransIsland doesn't want to comment on the rebuttal.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
baroque
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 217):
For people who are interested in the technology happening in Iraq, check out this cool article.

http://rezendi.com/travels/bbbb.html

It might or might not be cool, but it is intensely depressing. If you persist to the end, you find that he believes little has been done and that with the disarray (see Nav's comments as to why) that nothing much CAN be done.

That is the sort of article I can find. And yet some insist there is progress. Where and how?
 
Dougloid
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 18):
Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):

No more American lives for Iraqis, they aren't worth it.

An Iraqi live is at least as worth as an American , remember the US attacked Iraq ... now the US has to solve the problem and not leave like cowards !

I happen to agree with you that Iraqi lives are worth as much as anyone else's-no more, no less.

However, you have been insistent that the US get out of Iraq ever since we started talking about this stuff here. That is going to happen after the election.

We think that American lives are worth something too, but apparently the Iraqis do not agree that the lives of their countrymen are worth much because they're doing this to themselves for the most part , out of sectarian enmity. Otherwise, how do you explain suicide bombers driving trucks full of explosives into markets where people are tyrying to go about the business of living their lives?

I have asked my European colleagues to come up wiith a workable plan for disengagement and reconstruction and like so many others, you don't really have a plan on a governmental level or on a personal level. To say it plainly, what have you personally done for Iraq today? Tha answer is nothing.

So don't sit there in your comfortable flat, the comfort and security of which was assured with the lives of a lot of Soviet and American and British soldiers, sailors and airmen and lecture us about cowardice.

So now we're cowards because we're going to do what the rest of the world says should be done as soon as we get rid of Bush and co.??

If we followed the model you propose, Germans would still be living in straw shacks and sending every pfennig they have for reparations to Russia. So that's not workable, and don't throw that in our faces thank you very much.

Pissing and moaning about this mess doesn't answer the question "What is to be done?"

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 19):
Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):

If the world comes bitching and complaining that the US made a mess in Iraq, we can honestly now say that we cleaned up the mess we made, this continuing mess is the fault of Iraq and it's neighbors.

false , the Iraqis had a better live with Saddam hard to say but it´s the true ...

That would depend on who you were. The story of what Saddam did to the Iraqis has not yet been written.

Again........What's your solution? What do you propose? Who's going to sign up? How much money are you willing to donate?
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
NAV20
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:28 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 2):
I assume your talking about Iraq being cobbled together by the British. This is very true.

Sorry to comment so late on an earlier point, but that really is very unfair to the Brits. The whole region (from the Mediterranean to the Iranian border) was part of the Ottoman (Turkish) Empire until the end of the First World War. The League of Nations (dominated by President Woodrow Wilson) had no idea what to do with them, and merely 'mandated' (i.e. 'ordered') Britain and France to occupy and administer them. Britain got the job of administering the areas that became Iraq, Jordan, and Palestine, France got landed with Lebanon and Syria.

Thereafter the League of Nations did nothing whatever to advance the 'countries' that it had created towards nationhood. In the end, the British pulled out of Iraq (because guerrilla activity had reached fever-pitch), and the French lost interest after they were defeated by Germany in 1940. Early in WW2, in 1941, the Iraqis invited the Germans in and Britain had to occupy the place all over again. And also kick the Vichy French out of Syria and Lebanon, because they were also opening the door to the Germans, who would then have been able to take control of the Suez Canal.

The whole region was still in a God-awful mess after WW2, because, in twenty years, the League of Nations had never sorted the place out. Eventually it got handed over to the United Nations, which (as it turned out) finished any prospects of peace in the region for good by creating the State of Israel right in the heart of it.

It's totally wrong to blame Britain for the mess in Iraq. OR the mess in the rest of the region.

[Edited 2007-04-30 16:43:30]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
flyorski
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:35 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 221):
It might or might not be cool, but it is intensely depressing. If you persist to the end, you find that he believes little has been done and that with the disarray (see Nav's comments as to why) that nothing much CAN be done

That is true, the situation he finds in Iraq is sad, I meant cool from the standpoint of computer operations, setting up servers and satellite connex from a black hawk helicopter would make a great book............
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Mon Apr 30, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 223):
The League of Nations (dominated by President Woodrow Wilson)

How could Wilson dominate something his country never joined? Wilson had the Idea of the League of Nations but to his great embarrassment couldn't get the US Senate to ratify the treaty allowing the US to join it. Wilson had no influence what-so-ever on what the League did or did not do.

It was in fact dominated by the victors of World War I. Britain and France.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 223):
It's totally wrong to blame Britain for the mess in Iraq. OR the mess in the rest of the region.

Therefore it is NOT totally wrong to blame Britain. Britain had an accomplice in France but in the end the mess int he Middle east is mostly of European making.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
deltadc9
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Tue May 01, 2007 12:25 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 195):
Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 194):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 191):
In any even, the Pentagon did a lousy job of planning that part of it.

Name one post war scenario that went smoothly in all of history.

Keep you head buried in the sand, friend. They did a lousy job. There's no doubt they did almost no planning for what would happen after Baghdad fell; they didn't plan for an insurgency. People don't like being occupied, no matter who their leader was, and no matter the intentions of the occupier. Ask the Wermacht soldiers about that, after the Soviet People, who despised Stalin, rose up anyway when he called for the defense of the homeland. People do NOT like being dictated to by a foreign power. That's human nature, and there's no doubt 1600 Pennsylvania and the Pentagon never even considered it, imho.

So, keep the blinders on. This conflict was woefully planned from the get-go. And no amount of apologizing on your part or anyone's part can change that cold, hard fact.

Now that you are done evading the question, I still want an answer.

And I apologise for NOTHING, simply trying to point out a harsh reality.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 223):
It's totally wrong to blame Britain for the mess in Iraq. OR the mess in the rest of the region.

Yes it is, the whole world "government" thing has just not worked IMO. Look and the first UN actions, establishing Israel, and the Korean "Police Action". I just dont see them fixing problems, just causing more, UNICEF excepted.

BTW, according to what I have read, the French had a lot to say about where the Iraqi borders would be, the British were more concerned about how to manage the mess.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Tue May 01, 2007 12:41 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 196):
Ask the Wermacht soldiers about that, after the Soviet People, who despised Stalin, rose up anyway when he called for the defense of the homeland

The Soviet people didn't despise Stalin until after he was dead. I've READ letters from prisoners in the Gulag who thought Uncle Joe would release them if only he knew how innocent they were and how corrupt his officials were. Most Soviet citizens had no idea that it was Stalin who was the cause of their trouble, so great was Stalin's propaganda at shielding him.

If the Great Patriotic War was so universally fought by the people of the Soviet Union, why were the prisoner battalions necessary? Why were NKVD posted behind the Red Army with orders to shoot anyone coming back.

Granted, the people of the Soviet Union did rise up in large measure. But there is no comparison that can be drawn. I've read interview after interview in the Harvard University Refugee Project samples of the thousands of interviews conducted after the war by the US Army of Soviets who fled the USSR during the war. German occupation to some (like the Ukrainians who were still recovering from the forced famine of Collectivization) was a blessing, in a very sad way.

Your example doesn't hold up historically Falcon84. You just picked something in history you thought would support your theory.

A better example might have been the Spanish during the Napoleonic Wars. But even during the Peninsula Campaign the Spanish Guerrillas (this is were the term guerrilla was invented BTW) didn't fight the British and Portuguese, they fought against the occupier the French.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Tue May 01, 2007 1:18 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 222):
the Iraqis do not agree that the lives of their countrymen are worth much because they're doing this to themselves for the most part , out of sectarian enmity. Otherwise, how do you explain suicide bombers driving trucks full of explosives into markets where people are tyrying to go about the business of living their lives?

-
THE Iraqis agree the lives of their countrymen to be worth very much, and THEY are NOT doing anything to themselves. Those who do such things are SOME people out of millions. In case of an attack as described it is ONE driver and hundreds of victims who value the lives of their countrymen quite highly. Just watch the enormous efforts launched after such things to save the lives of whomever survived and to help the wounded. Baghdad ambulances apparently arrived even before the media !
-
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Tue May 01, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 228):
THE Iraqis agree the lives of their countrymen to be worth very much, and THEY are NOT doing anything to themselves.

Do you look at the news?

This is just about the most asinine statement I've ever read.

The biggest problem is that Iraqis are doing this to themselves. Those with brains or money are leaving, those that stay stay silent refusing to be of help to the one force they say they want out yet it's the only force that is neutral to all parties. This then becomes a classic case of being part of the solution or part of the problem. By remaining silent, they help those that are destroying their country around them.

This is my greatest frustration and the reason why I said it's not worth one more American. We can only so so much the Iraqis have to stand up for themselves. If they refuse to do so, why should we even bother anymore.

I understand the feelings of UH60FtRucker, but as I explained we can walk away from Iraq and rightfully declare our part done. It's up to the Iraqis to run their country or tear it apart.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Tue May 01, 2007 6:42 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 228):
it's not worth one more American

-
what you are right about is that this US-American military action is NOT worth a single American life and not even a single American getting wounded. The show is over, the circus needs to be closed down. It is time to get OUT. Fewer and fewer people see the USA as saviour, while most see the USA increasingly as the actual cause, as the cause it is, of the whole mess. Of course, it is as with any sinking ship, those who can leave. I expect that a considerable part of those who left will settle down where they are now, which will strenthen the regional role of Amman and Damascus in the times to come.
-
 
ozglobal
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Tue May 01, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 21):

Remember also that the French were inspired by the US for their own revolution.

The French philosophical movement known as the 'Enlightenment' was the main source of the so called 'founding fathers' inspiration and reference. The French and American revolutions have a 'symbiotic' relationship: The American revolution was formed from French thought, the French Revolution from the American action.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
I still believe that the Administration got into Iraq with the best of intentions.

How is that possible when you know that they did so in 'bad faith', ie on fabricated arguments? When the CIA administrators admit they were put under pressure to 'give them something they could use'. When former members of the administration admit that invasion of Iraq was discussed seriously long before Sept 2001. Or are you saying the end justifies the means? Or are you unwilling even to accept the admissions of the administration itself and a number of US senate inquiries on these questions?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
The world thought Saddam Hussein had WMD, not just the US. The UN passed resolution after resolution and Hussein ignored them.

No. Your media may have given you this impression, but the rest of the world saw the question as 'uncertain' and by UN resolution insisted on intrusive inspections continuing. It was these inspections and not the fabricated intelligence (never swallowed by the security council) that proved to establish the reality: i.e. no WMD's. This incredulity of US 'intelligence' was the whole reason the US administration were forced to 'go it alone' with the window dressing of the 'coalition of the willing'.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Tue May 01, 2007 10:23 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 231):
How is that possible when you know that they did so in 'bad faith', ie on fabricated arguments?

As I showed to TransIsland above, the evidence was wrong but claiming it was fabricated to fit an agenda is wrong. In the article critical of the administration the author admitted that Europe's intelligence said there were WMD just as the US's did. In fact, as the author pointed out the German's had an even worse assessment that Iraq was three years away from a nuclear bomb. This is the truth, from someone critical of the administration without the hysteria of the "Bush lied, people died" crowd.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200401/pollack

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 231):
Your media may have given you this impression, but the rest of the world saw the question as 'uncertain' and by UN resolution insisted on intrusive inspections continuing.

What part of this do you not understand?:
Quoted from the article pasted above.
"Other nations' intelligence services were similarly aligned with U.S. views. Somewhat remarkably, given how adamantly Germany would oppose the war, the German Federal Intelligence Service held the bleakest view of all, arguing that Iraq might be able to build a nuclear weapon within three years. Israel, Russia, Britain, China, and even France held positions similar to that of the United States; France's President Jacques Chirac told Time magazine last February, "There is a problem---the probable possession of weapons of mass destruction by an uncontrollable country, Iraq. The international community is right ... in having decided Iraq should be disarmed." In sum, no one doubted that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction."


By the way OzGlobal in case you don't know the Atlantic is a left leaning magazine. The article is by an author critical, as I mentioned of the war and the Bush administration. At least he has the intellectual honesty NOT to rewrite history, as you and so many others have been doing.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 231):
Or are you unwilling even to accept the admissions of the administration itself and a number of US senate inquiries on these questions?

Just who are the administration officials changing their tune? George Tenet? A Clinton appointee, whose CIA was responsible for the bad intel in the first place and is now playing the classic Washington game of CYA? Or Colin Powell possible future Presidential candidate, who is distancing himself from the situation for his own political survival? Or Senators and Congressmen who during the Clinton years where all hawks about WMD from Tenet's intel. (See the quotes in my response to TransIsland.) Now they sing a different tune.

I am perfectly willing to admit that the intelligence was bad. That's plainly obvious. It was bad when Bill Clinton was claiming Saddam Hussein had WMD, it was bad intel when George Bush acted on it. But George Bush acted. And it was still the right thing to do. The world has one less dictator to worry about, and one more democracy. It's up to the Iraqis now to see how long it stays that way. Our job is done.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
baroque
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Tue May 01, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 231):
Quoting UALPHLCS (Thread starter):
I still believe that the Administration got into Iraq with the best of intentions.

How is that possible when you know that they did so in 'bad faith', ie on fabricated arguments? When the CIA administrators admit they were put under pressure to 'give them something they could use'.

The evidence favours the Ozg interpretation.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/11/1089484242583.html

"On page after page in the Senate report, CIA and other US intelligence officers are shown distorting information, covering up or ignoring evidence in order to prosecute the case that Iraq had an active biological and chemical weapons program, and was rebuilding its nuclear weapons capability.

In the case of Curve Ball, it finds, even the CIA's imagery analyst who identified the seven sites Curve Ball named could not find evidence of any biological weapons facilities there."

It has also been reported that a UK intell officer reported back that evidence was being adjusted to fit decisions already taken.

http://www.fourthfreedom.org/Applications/cms.php?page_id=28
"The first was an unwillingness or inability to calculate accurately the combined effects of the first Gulf War and twelve years of punishing sanctions. Secondly, the administration had no interest in calculating into its estimates of Iraq's holdings the successful destruction of weapons and materials under the previous UN inspections regime, UNSCOM, from 1991 to 1998. Finally, the administration worked to undermine the findings and experience of the new UN inspections program, UNMOVIC, that began monitoring efforts in December 2002. As a result of either stubbornness or short-sightedness, or both, the administration failed to see the full picture of how successful prior efforts had been in dismantling many aspects of Iraqi weapons program. In fact, the efficacy of UN disarmament efforts was dismissed summarily.

In this report we present the publicly available data that U.S. and UK leaders chose to ignore in the pre-war debate. It provides a clear picture of what could have-and should have-been known and what should have been balanced against other more secretly obtained data on Iraq. This exercise is not revisionist history as administration officials have claimed but a careful attempt to present publicly available information evaluating the administration's justifications for war. The reason those now searching for weapons are finding only traces, remnants, and precursors is that previous policies of sanctions and UN weapons inspection and destruction actually worked."

Iraqi military expenditure was KNOWN to have fallen from "$22.5 billion in 1990 to an average of approximately $1.2 billion per year in the late 1990s.7 As a result, the huge volume of military goods that flowed into Iraq in the 1980s slowed to a trickle."

And a last bit about cooperation:
"3. Iraq cooperated with the inspectors

In the months prior to war Iraqi officials provided substantial cooperation to renewed UN inspections. The monitors had unfettered access to all sites and complete freedom of movement. Even Saddam Hussein's palaces, previously off limits to UN officials, were opened to inspection.

According to Blix, "the most important point to make is that access has been provided to all sites we have wanted to inspect."8 Blix reported that "prompt access . . . has been given to inspection teams." This "open doors policy," as Blix described it, was "an indispensable element of transparency and a process that aims at securing disarmament by peaceful means."

IAEA director ElBaradei reported that "Iraqi authorities have consistently provided access without conditions and without delay."10 ElBaradei reported on 27 January that "all inspection activities have been carried out without prior notification to Iraq, except where notification was needed to ensure the availability of required support." "
 
UALPHLCS
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Tue May 01, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting Baroque (Reply 233):

Sure the Senate is doing it's own CYA to cover itse;f from all of the statements they made in the 90s about WMD in Iraq.

I work for the government now. It isn't hard to find someone who wasn't listened to who will then say "I warned them and they ignored me." To a policitican this is gold. Suddenly the one lone voice is the paragon of virtue because they represent the holy grail to politicians...political cover.

The Senate isn't investigating what went wrong. They are investigating ways to cover their collective asses over the bad intelligence.

"Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime ... He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation ... And now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction ... So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan. 23. 2003

"I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force -- if necessary -- to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security."
- Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002

"One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line."
- President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998

"If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear. We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program."
- President Bill Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998

"We must stop Saddam from ever again jeopardizing the stability and security of his neighbors with weapons of mass destruction."
- Madeline Albright, Feb 1, 1998

"He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."
- Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs."
Letter to President Clinton.
- (D) Senators Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, others, Oct. 9, 1998

"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process."
- Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

"Hussein has ... chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies."
- Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandate of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and th! e means of delivering them."
- Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002

"We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power."
- Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons..."
- Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years ... We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members ... It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons."
- Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction."
- Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002

So let me ask you, who was manipulating intelligence in 1998 when Bill Clinton, Madeline Albright and Sandy Berger said what they said?

Now that it has been proven wrong who is leading the charge to pin all of the blame on the Administration? Some of the very people in the Senate on this list.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
blrsea
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Tue May 01, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 234):
So let me ask you, who was manipulating intelligence in 1998 when Bill Clinton, Madeline Albright and Sandy Berger said what they said?

Now that it has been proven wrong who is leading the charge to pin all of the blame on the Administration? Some of the very people in the Senate on this list.

Many of those statements were for pure domestic political consumption. As has been proved in many articles since the occupation of Iraq, the administration had plans to attack Iraq and was looking for some excuse. And they tried to connect 9/11 to it, and then raised the bogie of WMD which even the UN didn't believe inspite of the bogus presentations by Colin Powell, and the administration had to rely on vague interpretations to go to war against Iraq. As has been proved in the many links since the start of the thread, no one apart from the few gullible fox-news viewers believed that Iraq was close to deploying WMD within a short period.

US can close shop in Iraq, but while some may believe that US won there, the majority will just think that the US cut and ran. Not that there is anything wrong with it if it will save a few iraqi lives.
 
ozglobal
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Wed May 02, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 95):
You can lecture all day. Regardless of the reasons for going to war, it's legality etc. there is one going on in Iraq. The issues from 2003 are now consigned to the history books.

Then why devote hundreds of lines of argument to support your administration's version of history. Is it a duty of of your role as "Military Historian at the West Point Museum"?

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 232):
By the way OzGlobal in case you don't know the Atlantic is a left leaning magazine. The article is by an author critical, as I mentioned of the war and the Bush administration. At least he has the intellectual honesty NOT to rewrite history, as you and so many others have been doing.

If these other nations were so convinced by their own 'intelligence sources', why did they all reject the US proposal of 'preemptive war' in favour of prolongation of the inspections that were working quite effectively, especially at the end of 2002? Why also, we must ask, did the US show no interest in the same active and effective, non-military option? Because they only had one course of action on the agenda: the 'military option'. If it were about WMD's, that would not have made strategic sense. So it wasn't ever really about WMD's.

You have a very heavy reliance on a single source. Baroque and others have provided a mountain of diverging sources. Please don't lecture us then in 'intellectual honesty' when you have made clear a number of times your 'ideological' allegiances and the constraints they put on your interpretation of events.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3232
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Wed May 02, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Blrsea (Reply 235):
no one apart from the few gullible fox-news viewers believed that Iraq was close to deploying WMD within a short period.

I see. So Madeline Albright in 1998 was planning Bush's war in 2003?

The Germans wanted the US to invade so badly they determined that Iraq was 3 years away from a nuclear weapon?

You people are so wrapped up in this conspiracy theory that the Bush cabal planned this in 2000 yada yada that you ignore the evidence I present. Right there, Clinton saying the same thing Bush did 4 years later. Yet somehow this isn't a case of bad intelligence. No it's more realistic to believe the intelligence was manipulated.

Occam's Razor gentlemen. The simplest answer is usually the truth. The simplest answer is that the World's Intelligence agencies were fooled by Saddam Hussein from 1991 until the Iraq Invasion. The Clinton Administration gathered bad intel, as did the rest of the world, and the Bush administration acted on bad intel.

This isn't the first time a country has deceived intelligence gathering. Remember Patton's phantom army?

You people think there was media manipulation going on in 2002 prior to the invasion. Yet somehow you don't see the media manipulation going on right now. Ironic, and sad.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Wed May 02, 2007 12:58 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 233):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 233):

Sure the Senate is doing it's own CYA to cover itse;f from all of the statements they made in the 90s about WMD in Iraq.

Hang on there the article I quoted was written in 2003 and does not appear to be any sort of a CYA exercise.
"Unproven: The Controversy over Justifying War in Iraq
June 2003 By David Cortright, Alistair Millar, Linda M. Gerber"

Added to which, I find myself quite unable to take the blame for what Senators did or did not say in the 90s. Had I been them, I would have looked at military spending and wondered how some of those statements could have been true.

Surely there is as much blame that should attach to those who heard those statements and did not point out they could not be true as to the persons making the statements. Where was your ever sharp pen in those halcyon days Ua?

There were two realities back in 2002/03, the one that Bush and co lived in, and that populated by many others. Recognising the reality that was true is 20/20 hindsight for some, but not for those others.

Remember the "way things are done". To quote a recent example, the US said that the F-22 would not be available to Aus. It is most likely that Howard asked for this to be done, because the Raptor is not his preferred solution. That is the way it goes. So do not express surprise to find that this sort of double game was being played in 2002 and 2003.
 
UALPHLCS
Topic Author
Posts: 3232
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Wed May 02, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 236):
Then why devote hundreds of lines of argument to support your administration's version of history.

The statement you refer to was an attempt to put the thread back on its original track. The arguments made here now, which are the same old one made over and over in other threads, are really relegated to the history books. The argument for or against this war and what was known when has no bearing at this time to what we do now to get out or to stabilize Iraq and the get out. It's naval gazing. Some want to make it the end all and be all of the Iraq discussion. It happens everytime. "Iraq what so we do NOW" always devolves into what we did THEN.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 236):
Why also, we must ask, did the US show no interest in the same active and effective, non-military option?

What effective non-military option was there? Remind me? Was it the inspections that Nancy Pelsoi said Saddam made a mockery of? Are they the same non-military options that Iran is bending to? Oh yes the non-military options that North Korea just missed the deadline to comply with right?

I forgot how effective those non-military options are. Did you get beat up in the school yard much as a child? I guessing not. Then you'd know how effective non-military action is in the real world.
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
YYZAeroEng
Posts: 160
Joined: Wed Jun 01, 2005 10:39 am

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Wed May 02, 2007 1:37 am

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2007/05/01/alqaeda-iraq.html?ref=rss

If it turns out this report is confirmed, then this could be a good sign about the state of things in Iraq.

I have never supported the war in Iraq, but being Canadian my view point isn't exactly relevant and arguments against the war have been covered ad nauseam.
However I do hope something good can be salvaged and this may be a first step.
Mind that Bus! What bus? *Splat!*
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Wed May 02, 2007 2:49 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 238):
What effective non-military option was there?

THE non-military option clearly was to support a coup-d-etat through the CIA and CI-5 CI-6 plus the "Deuxieme Bureau", and to get a clear pledge of the putsch-commander to introduce democracy within three years. As practically all generals of the Iraqi armed forces were anti-Saddam minded, this would not have been such a problem. But the USA wanted to get real influence and wanted the contracts.
-

-
 
blrsea
Posts: 1950
Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 2:22 am

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Wed May 02, 2007 3:01 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 237):
I see. So Madeline Albright in 1998 was planning Bush's war in 2003?

The Germans wanted the US to invade so badly they determined that Iraq was 3 years away from a nuclear weapon?

You people are so wrapped up in this conspiracy theory that the Bush cabal planned this in 2000 yada yada that you ignore the evidence I present. Right there, Clinton saying the same thing Bush did 4 years later. Yet somehow this isn't a case of bad intelligence. No it's more realistic to believe the intelligence was manipulated.

If the intelligence was that good, clinton would have authorized air strikes at that time. Israel wouldn't have sat on its arse either. The reason Clinton didn't go to war was because the CIA itself wasn't fully convinced.

As for manipulation, look up the recent reports where Feith and Rumsfeld deliberately manipulated the intelligence to justify the worst case scenario.

You are sticking to one article in one left-leaning magazine to support your views, but ignoring all other news articles including those written by ex-Bush administration officials and people close to them.
 
NAV20
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Wed May 02, 2007 3:12 pm

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 239):
The argument for or against this war and what was known when has no bearing at this time to what we do now to get out or to stabilize Iraq and the get out. It's naval gazing.

Agree that argument about who did what in 2003 and before is not very relevant to the subject of the thread, UAL.

Don't see where you're coming from otherwise, though. The only way to pull out is to pull out. I agree with you that that is what the USA and other Coaltion troops should do, anything else is just throwing good lives after bad (on both sides).

But you've now introduced a further option - "......or to stabilize Iraq and the get out." In my view that isn't a practical option, there aren't enough troops to do that by military means and so much else has been stuffed up ('Iraqification,' 're-construction,' etc.) that there's no possibility of doing it by political means either.

So what do you want to do - pull out, or NOT pull out?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
AGM100
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu May 03, 2007 1:01 am

"They just dont get it Greg "

"The Iraqi's I tried to train for the last year are unprofessional lazy and ...pretty much worthless"

"You got to wonder about people who can live in such shitty conditions .. trash everywhere ..no pride." "At least clean up in front of your house"

"We have a good training program ..but you cant train people who do not get the idea of democracy and would rather sleep."

"They will never be able to govern themselves ,, they need some guy cracking their skulls in"

" I was gung ho for the war , I wanted to help the Iraqi's be free of Saddam... but they are completely uncapable getting along and will be killing each other forever.

"cute kids"

"Bad dogs"

"Worse women"

" Stinks..really f****ing bad"

"We need to get the Fu**** out now"

-- Quotes I remember from G.I Sitting @ the bar with me 5-1-07 Tucson Arizona. I bought his beer and just let him talk,, quite a guy, good man .. but scarred for life I would guess.

I am so freeking bumbed out today its ridiculous , I want my peeps out of thier. I want Sunnis to Kill Shia I want them all to kill each other. Just get us out .
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
ozglobal
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RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu May 03, 2007 7:07 am

George Tenet Accuses Bush Of Rush To War

Just in case it hasn't yet been posted above.....

What serious debate remains possible on the topic?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
 
tsaord
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 2:46 pm

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu May 03, 2007 8:54 am

In my opinion we went to war based on untruths. Looking back on it and listening to the reason's we are there now are not the same. It has morphed into some liberate Iraqis. I do not remember reading that as the reason we went over there. Therefore I do not support this war. We have nothing to gain from it, in my personal opinion. It wouldn't surprise me if terrorist are just laughing up a storm because we have lots of troops in another country and they are just sitting back...plotting the next threat to our nation. being over there does not strengthen us here. In my opinion.
there are icons, then there are legends, then there is rick flair
 
BN747
Posts: 7934
Joined: Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:48 am

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu May 03, 2007 9:55 am

Quoting Tsaord (Reply 246):
In my opinion we went to war based on untruths. Looking back on it and listening to the reason's we are there now are not the same. It has morphed into some liberate Iraqis. I do not remember reading that as the reason we went over there.

Well it wasn't (as you know). If 'freeing people from a brutal dictator' was the deal, we'd be mapping our next attack on North Korea, Cuba, Sudan, Iran and a few other places. So 'freeing people from a brutal dictator' cannot be the true reason which formally was 'Iraq has WMDs and is a threat to us'. That morphed into 'Saddam had ties to AL-Qaeda and 9/11 - BUT 2/3s of the hijackers were Saudis...hmmmm. But then came the 'we are fighting the terrorist there so we don't have to fight them here..' now if that isn't the biggest pile of horsecrap being feed to and swallowed by the American people..I don't know what it is (yes I do, but that's another thread'. Where in history has 'the terrorist' decided 'let's go toe-to-toe' with a unified, organized standing army. Terrorist don't do that.. terrorist inflict terror on unsuspecting populations of innocents..they don't map out eye-to-eye combat strategies. Now the insurgents are just what we here in the US would do if our nation was invaded. We'd defend our turf from 'the foreign invaders' thru insurgent tactics.

...bottomline, no one really know why Team Dubya decided to wrecklessly plunge America into this mess and he's squandered every chance to tell us the truth, by telling us all the above lies. The man has no credibility left. I never believed him in the 1st place, how some of you still do is astonishing to say the least.

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 237):
You people are so wrapped up in this conspiracy theory that the Bush cabal planned this in 2000 yada yada that you ignore the evidence I present

Well, there's the evidence you presented vs 3 cabinet members (Paul O'Neill, Richard Clarke and Tenet) who have said exactly that 'Bush planned this right off the bad in January 2001..'

..sorry, I'll take the words of 3 REAL PEOPLE who were THERE, over the case me you make.. 7 days a week. Any lies (Paul O'Neill, Richard Clarke and Tenet) have told..combined -- could not come close to measuring up to the gargantuan, destructive lies Dubya Inc has told up to date. As I've said (a few others here) all along, we should have never been there in the 1st place.

However, UALPHLCS.. I do give you major kudos for having the guts to at least step forward and 'express' how you adamantly supported this action and have now decided maybe it isn't such a good idea. Far to many people who did the very same thing are running around acting as if they were never in the 'cheering bleachers' at all when the thing 1st started.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu May 03, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting Baroque (Reply 220):
Quoting Flyorski (Reply 217):
For people who are interested in the technology happening in Iraq, check out this cool article.

http://rezendi.com/travels/bbbb.html

It might or might not be cool, but it is intensely depressing.

Agreed. I enjoyed reading, though, that there at least were attempts to jumpstart the Iraqi social (even economic - how many jobs, in theory, could these endeavours created  scratchchin  ?) arena, although, I don't know what kind of progress is being made now. And, like said - agreed, it's depressing that they were not able to continue their job there - due to the dangerous environment in which they operate(d).

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 222):
Eventually it got handed over to the United Nations, which (as it turned out) finished any prospects of peace in the region for good by creating the State of Israel right in the heart of it.

Wow, what a can of worms. It's possible Israel may have come to being without the assistance of the U(tter) N(onsense), but likely not without the help of a single, powerful nation (although, I would think the UK was influential in assisting in creating Israel). If Israel wasn't aided initially, they either would have been vanquished or I tend to think they would have overrun much of the area much more quickly, and the geography would be different until today.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: I'm Begining To Change My Mind About Iraq

Thu May 03, 2007 11:58 am

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 248):
there at least were attempts to jumpstart the Iraqi social (even economic - how many jobs, in theory, could these endeavours created ?) arena,

There would have been less need for economic reconstruction had the Iraqi economy not been pole-axed at the outset, by firing the civil service, local government, the army, the police, doctors and nurses etc. under the guise of 'de-Ba'athification.' That would automatically have put most service industry and small traders out of business as well. I always think that the firings, besides serving short-term political aims, were seen by the likes of Bremer and Cheney as a convenient way of not having to pay all the people concerned from US coffers - a sort of 'clever wheeze' that backfired.

I was very surprised at the time because I happen to have quite good knowledge of British methods of occupying places with a high proportion of people who, though politically disaffected, are important in terms of keeping the local economy working. I thought that they might have advised the Americans to take a more 'enlightened' approach. Turns out from this (remarkably frank) interview with Geoff Hoon, who was British Defence Secretary at the time, that the British did indeed offer sensible advice - but it was rejected out of hand:-

"A catalogue of errors over planning for Iraq after the invasion, and an inability to influence key figures in the US administration, led to anarchy in Iraq from which the country has not recovered, the British defence secretary during the invasion admits today.

"In an exclusive interview with the Guardian, Geoff Hoon reveals that Britain disagreed with the US administration over two key decisions in May 2003, two months after the invasion - to disband Iraq's army and "de-Ba'athify" its civil service. Mr Hoon also said he and other senior ministers completely underestimated the role and influence of the vice-president, Dick Cheney.

"Sometimes ... Tony had made his point with the president, and I'd made my point with Don [Rumsfeld] and Jack [Straw] had made his point with Colin [Powell] and the decision actually came out of a completely different place. And you think: what did we miss? I think we missed Cheney."

"Giving the most frank assessment of the postwar planning, Mr Hoon, admits that "we didn't plan for the right sort of aftermath".

"Maybe we were too optimistic about the idea of the streets being lined with cheering people. Although I have reconciled it in my own mind, we perhaps didn't do enough to see it through the Sunni perspective. Perhaps we should have done more to understand their position."

"He said history would have to decide whether the coalition should have anticipated the Sunni-Shia violence. "Given what we know now, I suppose the answer is that we should, but we did not know that at the time."

"Of the summary dismissal of Iraq's 350,000-strong army and police forces, Mr Hoon said the Americans were uncompomising: "We certainly argued against [the US]. I recall having discussions with Donald Rumsfeld, but I recognised that it was one of those judgment calls. I would have called it the other way. His argument was that the Iraqi army was so heavily politicised that we couldn't be sure that we would not retain within it large elements of Saddam's people."


http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,2070256,00.html
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci

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