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TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: Fascist America In 10 Easy Steps

Sat Apr 28, 2007 1:48 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 49):
Damn, could have fooled me!

That was easy.  Yeah sure
This space intentionally left blank
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Fascist America In 10 Easy Steps

Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:02 pm

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 5):
DrDeke, and Klaus,

I'd have to say I agree with you two both.

Andrea Kent

There's a shock.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 43):
While we are far from a fascist state as even Ms. Wolf acknowledges, she is noting that some human and citizens rights are being eroded in the USA, compounded by fear mongering by President Bush and V.P. Cheney using 9/11 to keep themselves and the Republicans in power.

I must have been dreaming last November when the Democrats gained control of both Houses of Congress.  sarcastic 

Comparing G'itmo to the Gulags? Okay, because the US is putting its own citizens there. Oh wait! It isn't. We're putting people we've captured on the battlefield there!
And of course Wolf conveniently leaves out what the US government did during World War Two, the Civil War, etc.

Quote:
Yes, but that is in Iraq, you could argue; however, after Hurricane Katrina, the Department of Homeland Security hired and deployed hundreds of armed private security guards in New Orleans.

Maybe Ms. Wolf should figure out that the US Military isn't supposed to intervene with force on domestic issues. Case in point: when my dad was stationed at Duke Field (part of Eglin AFB) in Florida, they once sent up an AC-130 Gunship to use the infrared sensors to track a criminal running from the cops but they couldn't open fire.

Quote:
In 2005 and 2006, when James Risen and Eric Lichtblau wrote in the New York Times about a secret state programme to wiretap citizens' phones, read their emails and follow international financial transactions, it became clear to ordinary Americans that they, too, could be under state scrutiny

If you're making phone calls to known terrorist numbers in the Middle East, I hope the government is tracking your phone calls. If you aren't, you probably have nothing to worry about.

Quote:
The fifth thing you do is related to step four - you infiltrate and harass citizens' groups. It can be trivial: a church in Pasadena, whose minister preached that Jesus was in favour of peace, found itself being investigated by the Internal Revenue Service, while churches that got Republicans out to vote, which is equally illegal under US tax law, have been left alone.

Here Ms. Wolf conveniently leaves off the Rev. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton as well as many other Black churches, and for no other reason that they vote the same way she does.


My conclusion: Naomi Wolf should stick to acting. Not politics.
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
Stealthz
Posts: 5558
Joined: Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:43 am

RE: Fascist America In 10 Easy Steps

Sat Apr 28, 2007 2:55 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 51):
My conclusion: Naomi Wolf should stick to acting. Not politics.

You may have the wrong Naomi there, Ms Wolf is a writer not an actor. A writer whose opinions seem to be at odds with many here.
Quite frankly, never been a big fan myself.

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Fascist America In 10 Easy Steps

Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:22 am

It's amusing to me that Naomi Wolf would have her piece published in Britain. Even if, as some have defended her, this is simply a warning for the US, in Britain they have given up much more privacy in the name of security than the US has.

"Britain is in danger of "committing slow social suicide" as such Big Brother techniques as surveillance cameras and recording equipment spread into every aspect of our lives, the nation's information watchdog will warn this week. "

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article2494230.ece

All Wolf could come up with in the US was the wiretapping of terrorists calling from overseas to people here in the US. In Britain every step is monitored.

The pot is calling the kettle black isn't it?
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
DrDeke
Topic Author
Posts: 807
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:13 am

RE: Fascist America In 10 Easy Steps

Mon Apr 30, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 53):
The pot is calling the kettle black isn't it?

Not really, no. I haven't forgotten about this thread and will reply in more depth later (oh boy, I bet you can't wait), but I will say that I think you and many others in this thread are taking the article way too personally.

I don't like "Big Brother"-esque techniques being used in any society. Say -- just for the sake of argument -- that Britain uses these techniques more than the United States uses them, and that the United States uses them more than Australia does. As a United States citizen, I see no reason to refrain from complaining about or condemning Big Brother moves in Australia just because (in the hypothetical) the United States uses more of them than Australia does.

To me, and I would hope to most reasonable people, this is not a matter of "my country is better than yours," it's a matter of trying to prevent bad things from happening in ALL free countries.

DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Fascist America In 10 Easy Steps

Mon Apr 30, 2007 2:38 am

Quoting DrDeke (Reply 54):
Quoting UALPHLCS (Reply 53):
The pot is calling the kettle black isn't it?

Not really, no. I haven't forgotten about this thread and will reply in more depth later (oh boy, I bet you can't wait), but I will say that I think you and many others in this thread are taking the article way too personally.

I don't like "Big Brother"-esque techniques being used in any society. Say -- just for the sake of argument -- that Britain uses these techniques more than the United States uses them, and that the United States uses them more than Australia does. As a United States citizen, I see no reason to refrain from complaining about or condemning Big Brother moves in Australia just because (in the hypothetical) the United States uses more of them than Australia does.

To me, and I would hope to most reasonable people, this is not a matter of "my country is better than yours," it's a matter of trying to prevent bad things from happening in ALL free countries.

DrDeke

There's a distinction to be made between criticism and nutjob rants, isn't there? Spend time screwing around with Naomi Wolf and Noam Chomsky and the rest of the Chicken Little crew, you'll never get down to brass tacks. For that matter spend enough time listening to Ann Coulter and Rush Limbaugh you won't learn anything of substance either.

It is far better to get involved in the legislative process at some level. Mr. Queso of this board went down to the Texas legislature and testified in favor of a bill that was being considered. Although I do not agree with the subject material much that is the was that shit gets changed around here-not listening to looney tunes rants disguised as commentary.

Plus the fact that it was published in Europe is pandering to the gullible to sell newspapers. Whenever anything in the press in Europe appears that seems to reflect poorly on their American cousins, the critical thinking light goes out and they swallow it hook, line and sinker no matter how absurd it happens to be.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
GDB
Posts: 14322
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Fascist America In 10 Easy Steps

Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:37 am

Some of you are amusing, Democrats are 'Socialists and Communists', yet get so het up about an article that some interpret as calling directly the current President and Administration 'Fascist', an irony check needed here I think.
Please ask some of our members from what was the Warsaw Pact, what a Communist regime was like, I very much doubt they will find ANY parallels with a very moderate, centrist-with an only very slight list to the left, party like the Democrats.

We've had nominally 'Socialist' governments here, in raw terms, many in the US, could call Blair's government 'Socialist' if looking at detail at some of it's domestic polices-by their own frankly unique in world term, interpretation.
Many in the US called Clement Atlee a 'Communist', I've seen it on here in the past.
Yeah right-fought with the US in Korea, fought Communism in Grecce, Malaya, was a leading proponent in the formation of NATO, provided the second biggest contribution to the Berlin Airlift, allowed the return of US forces on to UK soil, armed with Atomic weapons to boot.
All the while the US administration could at times be crass in it's dealings with the Attlee government-then asked for additional resources to be committed in areas, like Greece, like Korea, who was being ungrateful here?

All Labour governments have been more left of centre than any Democrat administration, when they lurched leftwards after losing in 1979, they were out of power for 18 years.
All of these governments, Labour and Democrat, were totally committed to Western defence, they did do cuts in difficult economic times, but then so did the Conservatives in the UK.

I don't know much about Wolf, I know she is rather better looking that Ms Paglia-meow!
I do note how insults seem to all too often replace considered debate of what the article is about, at least in addressing some areas that have a range of laws and events to source from-again, for me, this is mainly realised in chapter 6.
 
UALPHLCS
Posts: 3232
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Fascist America In 10 Easy Steps

Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 55):
Plus the fact that it was published in Europe is pandering to the gullible to sell newspapers. Whenever anything in the press in Europe appears that seems to reflect poorly on their American cousins, the critical thinking light goes out and they swallow it hook, line and sinker no matter how absurd it happens to be.

Exactly.

There seems to be a predilection in Europe, especially since 2000 that the US is out of control and is a danger to the world. When this view is criticized the same tired old examples are trotted out. The US is the only country to have used nuclear weapons in anger. The US spends far too much on its Military. The US and its insane gun policies. The US is inching towards a fascist state. Blah blah blah.

The point in bringing this up is that Americans with similar axes to grind find a ready audience in Europe. The same folks so ready to critique the US and its policies don't see the same, similar or worse loss of liberty in their own societies. They ignore the security cameras in the street. They forget the Dunblane Massacre when the US has a school shooting. They forget that the US military helped them deter the Soviet Union for 40 years. Now we are the bad guys. So when someone from the US goes over and says the US is becoming a fascist state Europe says "so true."
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1421
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: Fascist America In 10 Easy Steps

Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting DrDeke (Thread starter):
I ran across what I thought was a rather well-written article on the parallels between recent (United States of) American history and the processes that other countries have gone through on their way to becoming fascist or authoritarian states:

A person that thinks that the U.S.A. will become a fascist state anytime in the near future must be seriously mad. Centralized government in the states is rather weak compared to the rest of the world... especially when compared to our enlightened friends in Europe. States rights rule supreme here. Certainly this causes a lot of problems when enacting far reaching federal legislation (i.e. constitutional amendments) on issues people seem to hold dear on this forum such as stem cell research, gay marriage, etc. As for the aforementioned issues some sort of national standard should be enacted to deal with stem cells in a civilized and humane way (so that we are not creating embryos only to destroy them) and I feel that gays should have the right to marry like anyone else (churches are within their rights to deny gay marriages on their premises, but they have no right to dictate civil law and shove religious values down the throats of people who would have no part in it).

I really, REALLY hate it when people go ahead and bash America simply because a President is in office that they don't like. Not all Americans are clones of George W. and there are term limits people... Bush is gone by January 2008! What are the Bush/America bashers going to do after we kick Georgie to the curb? Perhaps Christianity is next on the bulls-eye.
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller
 
FlyDeltaJets87
Posts: 4479
Joined: Fri Aug 11, 2006 3:51 am

RE: Fascist America In 10 Easy Steps

Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:48 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 58):
Bush is gone by January 2008!

I agree with a lot of what you said, but it's January 2009.  wink 
"Let's Roll"- Todd Beamer, United Airlines Flight 93, Sept. 11, 2001
 
DrDeke
Topic Author
Posts: 807
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 7:13 am

RE: Fascist America In 10 Easy Steps

Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:05 am

Quoting Flybyguy (Reply 58):
I really, REALLY hate it when people go ahead and bash America simply because a President is in office that they don't like.

That's fine, and I'm sure some people do that. But, like I mentioned in my original post, I don't see a WHOLE lot of difference between the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, and I don't want a President of the United States from either party to have the kinds of powers that have been absorbed into the executive branch of our government lately.

How does this reconcile with your view that I am bashing Bush because I don't like him?

DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
flybyguy
Posts: 1421
Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:52 pm

RE: Fascist America In 10 Easy Steps

Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:09 pm

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 59):
I agree with a lot of what you said, but it's January 2009.

My bad...
"Are you a pretender... or a thoroughbred?!" - Professor Matt Miller

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