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747hogg
Topic Author
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If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 9:11 am

Get ready for the time of your life! U.S. Customs is coming down HARD on pedophiles (Thank God!) and you will have your laptop checked by agents who run a program called EnCase and it will expose everything that has ever been put in, or taken out of your computer. Think you erased that adult site? It is still in that hard drive, and within seconds the government will have it. The agent will then have a look and see if anyone looks under 18... and if so, you my friend will be placed under arrest on the spot. I arrived this morning and had my laptop gone over by a real savy pro! I was one of several single guys who were taken aside and had the search to end all searches. I was on NWA 06 in PDX and it was not pretty. I hope all the sicko's that go over seas and do these vile acts get cought, but for us avation buff's who are not aware of what gives, my advise is just leave it at home and save yourself a great deal of stress and the possibility of a federal arrest if you have some playboy type pic's that don't have wrinkles yet... This is all over the net now, and many innocent incoming pax have had laptops seazed and been detained.
 
JAL777
Posts: 2453
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 9:18 am

Quoting 747hogg (Thread starter):
This is all over the net now,

Hence it must be true.  Yeah sure

I'm a single male whose come into the US from Asia about 8 times this year already and nobody checked my laptop.
 
paomien
Posts: 16
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 9:24 am

I haven't been checked, either, and I travel between the US and Asia about 6-8 times per year ...
 
747hogg
Topic Author
Posts: 168
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 9:28 am

Check this story out by doing a search, like customs inspection of laptops and the 9th circuit court ruling in favor of this. If you are a clean looking Asian you most likely don't fit the profile of the disgusting American sex tourists who go half way around the world to molest little children. In fact this morning in PDX we were all white citizens getting the business.
 
bkkair
Posts: 384
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 9:34 am

Thanks for bringing this up. It seems US Customs are being very aggressive lately in seizing laptops, cameras and external storage devices and memory cards.

I have a feeling a new directive just came down in the past few weeks because US Customs used to be easy (well, easier than now).

I travel to the US once a month and after not being searched in years, my last trip (a week ago)was hell wih the laptop search. I was made to feel like a pervert for no other reason that I was a male, travelling alone and coming from Asia.

There was an article about US Customs seizing laptops in the New York Times recently.

The big danger going on a business trip to the states is you will have your laptop seized upon arrival and you won't have the use of it while there. My company got me a "travel laptop" to use when going to the states. I keep anything important on a remote server.
 
747hogg
Topic Author
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 9:49 am

My understanding is that customs has the ability, and does in fact, download and store the entire contents of the laptop. Not being a computer person I don't know how this is done, but many people in the IT field are totally numb that corporate data has now been looted and on someone's desk for review. I use my laptop to play DVD and games only... guess thats why the customs folks were damned determined to come up with anything on me! Polar Bowling, that's it!
 
aa61hvy
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 9:51 am

Is this only for Asia? I'm going to YYZ next month for business and I want to bring my laptop... I have had some porn on my computer but nothing illegal.. but I'd rather not be interrogated about it...
Go big or go home
 
max999
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 9:53 am

Quoting Bkkair (Reply 4):
There was an article about US Customs seizing laptops in the New York Times recently.

This is extremely disturbing; the article says that business travelers have had their laptops seized and searched.

Our firm's employees often fly around the world with sensitive client and financial information. Let's say if one of our laptops contained information about an unannounced $30 billion merger deal between company A and company B. If an unethical customs agent saw this information, he/she could go home, log onto E*trade, and profit off the stocks of those companies. That sort of thing could be a major liability for our firm and would greatly hurt our brand with bad publicity.

The way the system is set up now is overly broad should be stopped immediately. Some sort of mechanism must be in place to ensure the searches are ONLY for contraband before it can begin again.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
mham001
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 10:10 am

Quoting 747hogg (Reply 3):
disgusting American sex tourists who go half way around the world to molest little children. I

Which has been grossly overblown. Anyway, the clever pervert will simply store his photos somewhere on the internet to retrieve later. Like chasing flies.
 
bkkair
Posts: 384
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 10:13 am

I looked up the program that Customs is using. It is chilling. Your whole life downloaded to the US Government (unless you travel with a clean laptop)

As Max999 said, being a customs agent would be a great start to an insider trading career. This program seems to be targeted at much more than simply finding dirty pictures.

From the EnCase website
EnCase Forensic has become the industry standard tool for uncovering, analyzing and presenting forensic data. Used by investigators in law enforcement, government, small businesses, consulting firms and corporations, EnCase Forensic provides a robust way to authenticate, search and recover computer evidence rapidly and thoroughly.

Computer evidence recovered with EnCase has been admitted into thousands of court proceedings in several countries and jurisdictions, and the EnCase software has been validated by the courts in several published decisions.

With the launch of Version 6, Guidance Software ensures that EnCase Forensic continues to meet the evolving needs of our customers. Using feedback from government, law enforcement and corporate investigators, we’ve enhanced nearly every component of EnCase Forensic. The result is an even more powerful tool that speeds up data acquisition and analysis to better support the rigors of criminal investigations and prosecutions.
 
max999
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 11:03 am

Quoting Bkkair (Reply 9):
As Max999 said, being a customs agent would be a great start to an insider trading career. This program seems to be targeted at much more than simply finding dirty pictures.

Just pick out well-dressed men/women coming from the major Asian financial centers (Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo), scan their laptops, and with luck, you're in business!
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
Stealthz
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 11:26 am

Quoting Max999 (Reply 7):
Our firm's employees often fly around the world with sensitive client and financial information.

That is the dumb part, with secure high speed communications available almost anywhere there is rarely any good reason to have that kind of data on a portable device.
Your clent data is more at risk from you losing your laptop or having your car stolen.

cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
Slovacek747
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 11:38 am

So am I going to have my computer scanned if I travel from IAH-HNL-IAH? Would just like it to be clarified. No, I don't have any child porn on my comp, but I don't like my computer being searched. I am American, not sure if being Asian is a necessity.

Thanks,
Slovacek747
 
bill142
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 11:44 am

Wouldn't this almost be an invasion of your privacy? It sounds to me like you're be suspected of a crime simply because you travelled to a certain part of the world. It's almost like being branded a terrorist because you travelled to the middle east.
 
max999
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 11:50 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 11):
That is the dumb part, with secure high speed communications available almost anywhere there is rarely any good reason to have that kind of data on a portable device.
Your clent data is more at risk from you losing your laptop or having your car stolen.

There are times when it's not possible to transmit the data and we need the laptop. What if we need to do a presentation for a client who is in a city where we don't have an office? That means we can't stop by the office, grab the flies, then go to the client.

Can we use the hotel's buiness center to download files? Sure, but it would be a breach of security rules because our IT department cannot vouch for the safety of those computers.

So in some cases, carrying the information on the laptop is the best way to go.

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 12):
So am I going to have my computer scanned if I travel from IAH-HNL-IAH? Would just like it to be clarified. No, I don't have any child porn on my comp, but I don't like my computer being searched. I am American, not sure if being Asian is a necessity.

You don't have anything to worry about. This laptop scanning would only apply to international flights because there are no customs for domestic flights.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
futurecaptain
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 11:55 am

Quoting Slovacek747 (Reply 12):
So am I going to have my computer scanned if I travel from IAH-HNL-IAH?

This sounds like it is a customs issue. That is a domestic flight, customs shouldn't be involved.

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 13):
Wouldn't this almost be an invasion of your privacy?

Isn't it great how our new congress who promised us all these great things continue to let things like this happen. I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but we give up too many freedoms under the great umbrella of terrorism. It's a complete violation of privacy.
AirSO. ASpaceO. ASOnline. ASO.com ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO. ASO.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 11:59 am

What are they doing? The USA seems to be going down a descending trend. Sure, crack down on paedophiles, but leave my laptop alone.

This is somewhat reminiscent of Orwell's 1984... Why do we all need to get interrogated to catch 1 out of 100,000 or however many that might be paedophiles? I mean, I don't even know exactly what they're looking for, but it just seems an unwelcomed intrusion; as has been said, private company info may end up in the wrong hands. A corrupt officer will use that business information.

This is bullshit. And it's not about me, as I don't fit the "profile", but come on, what's next? Cameras in our houses? Wiretaps? East-German style restrictions?
 
Stealthz
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 12:41 pm

Quoting Max999 (Reply 14):
There are times when it's not possible to transmit the data and we need the laptop.

You might note I said rarely not never, Corporate IT departments lay awake at night worrying about the critical and often out of date(a combination that can be worse) data that is racking up FF miles slung over the shoulder of armies of corporate road warriors.
There are better ways, perhaps not feasible all the time but certainly much of the time. Oh, and they rarely entail having to have a nearby office or use hotel computers.

I could walk into your office this afternoon and on one of your computers, provided it is connected to the world(regular dialup would do f no T1, DSL etc avail) and give you a presentation resident on my system in Sydney that you would believe was running locally.

Like I said, not viable 100% but certainly much more than many travelling workers will admit to and a damn sight safer as well.

Having said that and whilst I applaud all efforts to get these evil perverts off the streets I think this move is a knee jerk invasion of privacy that will have little effect apart from inconveniencing many thousands of law abiding citizens.


Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
Klaus
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 1:11 pm

Quoting Max999 (Reply 7):
searched.

Our firm's employees often fly around the world with sensitive client and financial information. Let's say if one of our laptops contained information about an unannounced $30 billion merger deal between company A and company B. If an unethical customs agent saw this information, he/she could go home, log onto E*trade, and profit off the stocks of those companies. That sort of thing could be a major liability for our firm and would greatly hurt our brand with bad publicity.

Even more worrying is the known fact that US agencies are actively participating in industrial espionage against foreign competitors of US corporations (and yes, that means especially those in "allied" countries!). This is also one of the purposes of the Echelon listening network.

The wealth of information gathered this way will most certainly be fed into the same channels sooner or later.

(Almost) everybody is against child pornography - what better front for a fishing expedition into the valuables of the competitors of your party's sponsors...?

And all that on top of the security risk of having uncontrolled software being run on your system, possibly infecting it and installing back doors for future access...

Visiting the USA is increasingly turning into a lottery with highly unattractive "prizes" to be "won"...  yuck 
 
CaptainJon
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 1:13 pm

As an IT worker, do anyone of you have any direct links regarding this issue? Thanks!
 
searpqx
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 1:59 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
Visiting the USA is increasingly turning into a lottery with highly unattractive "prizes" to be "won"... yuck

While I'm not defending or supporting this particular method, before we get too far down the, "Oh geez look at the awful thing America is doing now road (Klaus)", keep in mind this has been used as a weapon for years, and by more than the US. UK Customs check for laptop porn-Thursday, August 13, 1998
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 2:06 pm

My question is what happens if you have legit porn on your lap top. Nothing illigal like childporn but legit porn, could they seize my lap top as well?
Keep the shinny side up!
 
Klaus
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 2:31 pm

Quoting Searpqx (Reply 20):
While I'm not defending or supporting this particular method, before we get too far down the, "Oh geez look at the awful thing America is doing now road (Klaus)", keep in mind this has been used as a weapon for years, and by more than the US. UK Customs check for laptop porn-Thursday, August 13, 1998

Random privacy-invasive searches are a violation of everything a free and democratic society is supposed to stand for, in any case. It's as bad in the case of Britain as it is for anybody else.

Neat detail:

BBC News | Sci/Tech | UK Customs check for laptop porn:

Quote:
And then her face turns dour. "Oh! It's an Apple," she says, dejectedly. "Our scanner doesn't work on Apples."

At this point, it's all a little bit too much, too fast, for me to handle. From seeing my personal privacy ripped out from under me with a computer-enema to an immediate about-face and witnessing my oppressors flounder in the pap of their own incompetence was just too much to bear.

Then, of course, I sort of relished the irony of it all. I swung into naive-mode "Oh. Oh well," I said and began packing up. "Why not?"

"I dunno - it just doesn't," she said.

 rotfl  Big grin

Another malware attack averted!  bigthumbsup 
 
max999
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Wed May 09, 2007 10:21 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 17):
Like I said, not viable 100% but certainly much more than many travelling workers will admit to and a damn sight safer as well.

It's all on a case by case basis depending on where the person is traveling to, hotels, offices, etc etc. Also, it depends on how tech-savvy the person carrying the laptop is.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 17):

Having said that and whilst I applaud all efforts to get these evil perverts off the streets I think this move is a knee jerk invasion of privacy that will have little effect apart from inconveniencing many thousands of law abiding citizens.

Of course it is an invasion of privacy the way the system is set up now because it scans for EVERYTHING on the laptop (see reply #9 from bkkair). If the stated purpose of this is to find contraband (such as child porn), then the system should only be looking for contraband and not looking for company Excel files.
All the things I really like to do are either immoral, illegal, or fattening.
 
bkkair
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Thu May 10, 2007 12:19 am

http://www.fjc.gov/public/pdf.nsf/lo...up/ElecDi15.pdf/$file/ElecDi15.pdf

This pdf file nicely shows how they can now return the computer to you because they will make an exact duplicate of the laptop to be used later for evidentiary reasons. The pdf also details court cases backing up the position of the US Govt.

Since they are not telling you what they are looking for (e.g. porn), anything they find can be used against you. It's not like a search conducted within the US (customs is not considered the US) where they need to have a court order saying exactly what they are looking for. If they found evidence of insider trading for instance, that could be used against you.

It's only a matter of time that they have 2 exits from customs: "Travellers with computers exit this way so we can copy your laptop" and "innocent travellers without laptops exit this way"

These searches and downloads of laptops seem to be about much, much more than finding child porn.
 
DrDeke
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Thu May 10, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting Dc9northwest (Reply 16):
but come on, what's next? Cameras in our houses? Wiretaps? East-German style restrictions?

Well, now that you mention it:

http://www.kten.com/Global/story.asp?S=4508858

Quote:
Houston's police chief is suggesting putting surveillance cameras in apartment complexes, downtown streets and even private homes.



Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
Another malware attack averted! bigthumbsup

Ho ho!  Smile


DrDeke
If you don't want it known, don't say it on a phone.
 
jwenting
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Thu May 10, 2007 12:59 am

Quoting Futurecaptain (Reply 15):
Isn't it great how our new congress who promised us all these great things continue to let things like this happen. I don't want to be a conspiracy theorist but we give up too many freedoms under the great umbrella of terrorism. It's a complete violation of privacy.

Leftists everywhere are focussed fully on taking complete control of everyone's life and knowing what everyone is doing at all times is a central part of that.

Quoting CaptainJon (Reply 19):
As an IT worker, do anyone of you have any direct links regarding this issue? Thanks!

No, but I do have some observations:
An average laptop has a 100GB harddisk. If that checkpoint were to mirror a thousand laptops a day (not too much at an international airport with a few 747s and 777s arriving each day) that's a hundred terabytes of data to be analysed each day.
Not only are the storage requirements staggering (they'll want to keep it practically forever if the conspiracy theorists are right...) but the manpower to analyse it all is massive too.
And given the time needed to download all of that (even if they give each machine a dedicated 100MBit network connection to some server it's going to take an hour or more per laptop) you can see that the entire thing is practically impossible to implement.

Far more likely they're picking a few people who fit a suspect's profile and having the system just analyse those harddisks and getting just the files they're interested in from them.
That would probably take less time per machine, far less manpower and equipment needed as well, and be altogether more practical (less impossible) to implement.

To completely mirror every harddisk entering the country they'd need enough space and equipment to handle a hundred or more of them at a time at any major airport...
I wish I were flying
 
LASoctoberB6
Posts: 1936
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:23 pm

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Thu May 10, 2007 1:14 am

just a question, what if I put my HDD in my checked baggage and put a different HDD in my laptop? oh wait, I won't be goin to asia no time soon....so nevermind

[Edited 2007-05-09 18:18:52]
[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
 
Stealthz
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Thu May 10, 2007 8:38 am

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 27):
what if I put my HDD in my checked baggage and put a different HDD in my laptop?

I realise the question was tongue in cheek but if you are going thru customs you have your luggage with you.
One could also assume if you fitted their profile then you could be pretty sure they would be looking in your luggage and if they found another hard drive you can bet you would get extra special treatment.

I would tend to agree with Jwenting, the logistics of this exercise are overwhelming. To look at anything more than a relatively few individuals would be quite daunting and to examine that data would be a horrendous task.

An analogy, over a period of decades the US Dept of Justice pursued AntiTrust suits against IBM, at one stage there was a ruling that every document produced by IBM had to be kept and stored for possible use in these cases, every document from around the world, all the way down to personal desk note pads and computer printouts(including mainframe coredumps which could be 1000's of pages of gibberish). This went on for several years until a judge realised there were former military bases all over the USA with buildings and hangers stacked to the roof with bales of paper and no one could ever possibly look at a fraction of it so he canceled the order.

This will likely go the same way.. someone will make lots of money selling US Customs software( I am sure Digital Intelligence already have) and data storage equipment until it is realised they are drowning in data they can never analyse.

Cheers
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
ACDC8
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Sun May 13, 2007 4:51 pm

So, what if you buy a used laptop and the previous owner had some "suspicious" material on it that you didn't know about?
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
User avatar
bwest
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Sun May 13, 2007 5:58 pm

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 29):
So, what if you buy a used laptop and the previous owner had some "suspicious" material on it that you didn't know about?

Be sure to keep your receipt or proof of purchase then...
 
Lufthansa747
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 7:45 am

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Sun May 13, 2007 6:16 pm

Always thought somebody would check my laptop - never happened so far.

BKK-LAX on TG
NRT-LAX on SQ with AC on to YVR (customs search - the guy was joking about some notorious BKK bar areas, didn't touch the laptop)

MNL-SYD-MEL got the worst customs treatment I've ever got, but even they didn't touch the laptop, although they had issues why I was travelling alone with hotel rooms showing 2 people...  Yeah sure
Air Asia Super Elite, Cebu Pacific Titanium
 
TedTAce
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting 747hogg (Thread starter):
expose everything that has ever been put in, or taken out of your computer.

 redflag  only the tin hat crowd would buy this crap.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 29):
So, what if you buy a used laptop and the previous owner had some "suspicious" material on it that you didn't know about?

Sounds like you are buying into above.

Two VERY simple points.
1) There are TONS of evidence eliminator programs out there that work VERY well. NO ONE can recover data off a sector that has had 1's and 0's written to it 8+ times.
2) Given above; while you are in Asia you can FTP any data you have to your server in America and while the CIA will see it, it's not going to anyone else.

Anyone who gets caught with this material on their PC's deserves their fate for two resons. The first and most obvious, their dispicable act of creating it. Second with all the workarounds available to not get caught; you deserve your fate for being lazy.
This space intentionally left blank
 
halls120
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting Bill142 (Reply 13):
Wouldn't this almost be an invasion of your privacy?

Nope. The United States has long had the right to inspect anything entering or exiting the country as a way of protecting its sovereign interests, and the Fourth Amendment permits such searches.

If you bring a computer into or out of the United States, the government can search your computer for contraband or other prohibited items at the airport or wherever you are entering or leaving the country. See, e.g., United States v. Ickes, 393 F.3d 501 (4th Cir. 2005) (Wilkinson, J.).

Quoting Klaus (Reply 22):
Random privacy-invasive searches are a violation of everything a free and democratic society is supposed to stand for, in any case.

The border search exception to our Fourth Amendment is not a "random, privacy-invasive search." And I'll bet just about every EU country has the same policy......
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7911
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 32):
1) There are TONS of evidence eliminator programs out there that work VERY well. NO ONE can recover data off a sector that has had 1's and 0's written to it 8+ times.

I'm well aware of these programs, however, there is always a possibility that they may be able to recover something. If they are able to recover data from HD's that have been melted or virtually destroyed, you can be sure that their programs will be able to recover re-written 1's and 0's.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 32):
Anyone who gets caught with this material on their PC's deserves their fate for two resons. The first and most obvious, their dispicable act of creating it.

That I'll agree to, but this ...

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 32):
Second with all the workarounds available to not get caught; you deserve your fate for being lazy.

Not a chance.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 3:36 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 33):
The border search exception to our Fourth Amendment is not a "random, privacy-invasive search."

If it works the way described above, it most certainly is.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 33):
And I'll bet just about every EU country has the same policy......

Apart from Britain, I've not heard of anything like that. And unless you can bring evidence to the contrary, I severely doubt it.
 
TedTAce
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RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 3:47 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 34):
I'm well aware of these programs, however, there is always a possibility that they may be able to recover something.

 no 

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 34):
HD's that have been melted

NAME ONE!

Exposed to heat, sure. Melted  redflag 

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 34):
virtually destroyed

 no 

Now imersion, dirt, some levels of otherwise adverse magnetic expososure, sure. But when you overwrite the place where the bad data was written several times; guess what? The answer is a FIRM and RESOUNDING  no 

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 34):
you can be sure that their programs will be able to recover re-written 1's and 0's.

 no  Name one/prove it.
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ACDC8
Posts: 7911
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 36):
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 34):
I'm well aware of these programs, however, there is always a possibility that they may be able to recover something.


Problems with Overwriting Data
Even if successfully overwritten data is not recoverable in the real world, there are still a number of complicating factors that may prevent successful erasure of the information:

Identifying and using the correct physical parameters of a drive to ensure that every sector on the surface is in fact overwritten.
Dealing with write errors on the surface. If for some reason the write command is rejected, any previous data in that sector or track is still available and accessible by low level techniques.
Selection of appropriate software that will work at a hardware level, independent of the operating system and overwrite data on the entire surface, not just for a single partition.
Notwithstanding any of these concerns, the process of overwriting data, if correctly implemented, is by far the most secure and economical method of erasing data from a hard disk drive.

http://www.actionfront.com/ts_dataremoval.aspx

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 36):
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 34):
HD's that have been melted

NAME ONE!

Exposed to heat, sure. Melted

Recovered HD's (I believe from VISA) in the WTC debris.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 36):
Name one/prove it.

Search and Recover by Iolo. I have it myself and have recovered many overwritten files.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 4:17 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 36):
Now imersion, dirt, some levels of otherwise adverse magnetic expososure, sure. But when you overwrite the place where the bad data was written several times; guess what? The answer is a FIRM and RESOUNDING

It's not that simple, actually.

It is quite conceivable that at least some residual signal can be recovered by careful analysis of the analog signal "seen" by the read heads. Adding different skew signals to the tracking servo and observing the difference in the output can also possibly lead to reconstruction of at least some of the data which had been written previously with a slightly different track alignment.

I doubt that many people around in these forums really have any secrets to protect which would be worth an analysis on that scale, but a sufficiently motivated government may change the picture...
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7911
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 4:27 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 36):
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 34):
you can be sure that their programs will be able to recover re-written 1's and 0's.

Name one/prove it.

Also, I would think that depending on how good of a deletion program you are using, overwritten data can still be evident on your HD.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 5:16 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 37):
Recovered HD's (I believe from VISA) in the WTC debris.

Where is the article and was there anything other then heat/compression dammage? I doubt they were LITERALLY melted.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 37):
I have it myself and have recovered many overwritten files.

Files that were 'destroyed' by an evidence eliminator? Unless it was a crappy program;  no 

Quoting Klaus (Reply 38):
least some

recovering 10K out of a 200 meg+ file is useless.

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 39):
how good of a deletion program you are using

True. If you use "Jim Bobs 'I think I overwote it'", yeah it's not going to work. But if you use a premium that overwrites beyond government standards.. you'll be fine.
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User avatar
hawaiian717
Posts: 3518
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 5:19 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 34):
I'm well aware of these programs, however, there is always a possibility that they may be able to recover something. If they are able to recover data from HD's that have been melted or virtually destroyed, you can be sure that their programs will be able to recover re-written 1's and 0's.

If it's overwritten on the disk, imaging the drive an analyzing the image with software like EnCase won't be able to recover it. To pull the data off, you're now dealing with physical disassembly of the drive and analysis of the individual platters.
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7911
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 5:25 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 40):
Where is the article and was there anything other then heat/compression dammage? I doubt they were LITERALLY melted.

Saw it on TV years ago. Here is a similar article though ...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895,1911132,00.asp

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 40):
Files that were 'destroyed' by an evidence eliminator? Unless it was a crappy program;

Search and Recover is a pretty good program, not that I'm a computer specialist or anything. But I've played around with it, and on average, I had to overwrite a file 39 times plus in order for the program not to be able to recover it, and even then it could some times recover parts of the picture file. Disclaimer, it was a weekend last year and I had nothing better to do then play around with the program ...  Wink

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 40):
True. If you use "Jim Bobs 'I think I overwote it'", yeah it's not going to work. But if you use a premium that overwrites beyond government standards.. you'll be fine.

That, for the average consumer, would be the tricky part. Almost every program/product advertises itself as premium, but in reality they're not. Unless you really know your computer and what to look for, you've got no chance.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 5:28 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 40):
recovering 10K out of a 200 meg+ file is useless.

I'm not quite as certain that's the percentage.
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 42):
Saw it on TV years ago. Here is a similar article though ...

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1895...0.asp

Buzzzert!!!!

Quote:
Most of the exposed circuitry had melted, and so had the IDE interface

That't the outside of the drive, but that's not

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 34):
HD's that have been melted or virtually destroyed



Quote:
and the platters were caked with dust and smoke residue.

The platters were not melted. That's what I think of when I hear a drive "melted".
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TheSorcerer
Posts: 1003
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:35 am

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 5:34 am

Isn't it possible to develop a program that only detects picture and videos and not text files?

Dominic
ALITALIA,All Landings In Torino, All Luggage In Athens ;)
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 42):
I had to overwrite a file 39 times plus

How do you know you overwrote the same sector/cluster/block and were you alternating 1's and 0s or just overwriting with the same data?

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 42):
Unless you really know your computer and what to look for, you've got no chance.

A good criminal does good research.

There was a story about a guy who robbed a bank he worked for and got away with it until he tripped up by parking a Ferrari in front of his 'middle income' house. Point being that he got away with the crime for over 3 years until he did something dumb. And considering we are talking about a scan that is done at a checkpoint, not a lab it's almost all academic if you do a basic coverup.
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ACDC8
Posts: 7911
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 5:39 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 44):
Quote:
Most of the exposed circuitry had melted, and so had the IDE interface

That't the outside of the drive, but that's not

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 34):
HD's that have been melted or virtually destroyed



Quote:
and the platters were caked with dust and smoke residue.

The platters were not melted. That's what I think of when I hear a drive "melted".

Like I said ...

Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 42):
I'm a computer specialist or anything

To me, melted is melted.

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 45):
Isn't it possible to develop a program that only detects picture and videos and not text files?

Don't know if it's the same, but programs such as Search and Recover have these options.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
TedTAce
Posts: 9098
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 12:31 am

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 5:40 am

Quoting TheSorcerer (Reply 45):
Isn't it possible to develop a program that only detects picture and videos and not text files?

Why would you want to do that when you can scan the text files of the history folder?
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ACDC8
Posts: 7911
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: If You Arrive From Asia, Alone W/ A Laptop..

Mon May 14, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 46):
How do you know you overwrote the same sector/cluster/block and were you alternating 1's and 0s or just overwriting with the same data?

How would I know what the program does? If it says it's going to overwrite and eliminate a file, that's what I am expecting it to do.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 46):
A good criminal does good research.

Agreed. But what about Average Joe who just bought his notebook used for a good price.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 46):
And considering we are talking about a scan that is done at a checkpoint, not a lab it's almost all academic if you do a basic coverup.

Just a personal feeling, I doubt it's more then a simple scan.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut

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