Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 1): excuse my ignorance but is this the German Railway system? |
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter): The Bundesregierung is trying to sell the DB for about 10 billion € , being 100 - 150 € billion Worth ! |
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter): See what happened in Great Britain , trains are not punctual , tickets more expensive , bad quality , bad infrastructure |
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter): See what happened in Great Britain , trains are not punctual , tickets more expensive , bad quality , bad infrastructure |
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter): |
Quoting Antdenatale (Reply 4): There is more money being spent improving the railways in Britain than ever before. There are more passengers travelling than ever and punctuality is on the rise. The UK also has one of the youngest train fleets. OK, the fare's charged are more expensive than most other countries, this is simple economics, you charge highier for a service that is in demand. All in all, I don't think privatisation has been such a bad thing! |
Quoting Mrniji (Reply 5): A privatization will cause remote areas not to be served in the interest of the people. |
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter): The DB is profitable , but we don´t need billion Profits , we need a reliable , safe and Cheap Bahn . |
Quoting Flyorski (Reply 7): state run Train. |
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter): See what happened in Great Britain , trains are not punctual , tickets more expensive , bad quality , bad infrastructure |
Quoting Flyorski (Reply 7): This would be terrible! DB is great, because it exists for ALL PEOPLE, not for some damn corporation who just wants to steal as much money as possible before bailing out, and letting the rails shut down. |
Quoting Pelican (Reply 9): The DB needs more competition! |
Quoting Pelican (Reply 9): I'm pro privatisation. I prefer that the railway tracks remain owned by the public, though. The DB needs more competition! |
Quoting Mrniji (Reply 10): Actually, LHStarAlliance's comments are quite accurate. When I lived in Britain, I observed how badly Competition in the railway sector can be... and the pressure for profits --> decrease in security --> Danger of accidents! |
Quoting Mrniji (Reply 10): Personally, I believe the railways are too important to let competitive pressures and free market forces play.... |
Quoting LH526 (Reply 11): Right ... stop this lefty whining ... Smile You will have much more diversity if the tracks stay with the state and only the rolling material (trains, cars, ....) will be privatized ... hence allowing for more diversity due to more private train companies spreading into the market . |
Quoting Pelican (Reply 12): Look at aviation. I don't see that privatisation and increased competition made LH unsafe. They are 100% privately owned since 1997 and the majority of shares is privately owned since 1994. Their last fatal accident was in 1993... |
Quoting Mrniji (Reply 13):
I respect your opinion, as you have valid points, and I agree that some points are quite strong. However, I would be a little careful with cross-sectoral comparisons. Aviation and railways have "different tasks to solve". And, definitely good to learn from other countries, but we should be careful in estimating whether this would work in Germany. |
Quoting Mrniji (Reply 13):
Obviously, the opinion one has matches with one's general opinion (i.e. pro/contra privatization, left/conservative etc.). - |
Quoting Mrniji (Reply 13):
As said, personally I don't trust big corporations, |
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8): and what about a system where "the state", union, states, towns, villages, give licences with clearly defined conditions to interested companies ? Where I work, the buses are "done" by a private company, operating A) under a licence of four towns and B) in conjunction with public transport of the Greater Zurich Area, which means the same tariffs. The waste-disposal-service is done by a private company as well, under the licence of the town in question. They are not allowed to reduce services. The "state" in fact can retreat to a licencing and supervising function, setting rules and conditions. |
Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 18):
Hey guy they´re defrauding you by 90-140 billion Euros ! |
Quoting WSOY (Reply 17):
Privatization is what Brussels wants, and this it what it will get -- by law! |
Quoting WSOY (Reply 17): Privatization is what Brussels wants, and privatization is what it will get -- by law! |
Quoting Pelican (Reply 19):
Quoting WSOY (Reply 17): Privatization is what Brussels wants, and this it what it will get -- by law! You should read again: EU transport ministers agreed rules ordering member states to prepare which means our national governments and not "Brussels" want privatisation. This would correspond with plans of the German government to privatise the German railway. |
Quoting BREmer (Reply 21): As long as the tracks stay state-owned, it might actually not all that bad. |
Quoting WSOY (Reply 22): reference to the Council Directive , reading on-line here |
Quoting consilium.europa.eu:
Council of the European Union The Council is the main decision-making body of the European Union The ministers of the Member States meet within the Council of the European Union. Depending on the issue on the agenda, each country will be represented by the minister responsible for that subject (foreign affairs, finance, social affairs, transport, agriculture, etc.). The presidency of the Council is held for six months by each Member State on a rotational basis. |
Quoting Wikipedia:
A directive is a legislative act of the European Union which requires member states to achieve a particular result without dictating the means of achieving that result. It can be distinguished from European Union regulations which are self-executing and do not require any implementing measures. Directives normally leave member states with a certain amount of leeway as to the exact rules to be adopted. Directives can be adopted by means of a variety of legislative procedures depending on subject matter of the directive. |
Quoting WSOY (Reply 22):
If you had included all of my original, you'd have noticed the reference to the Council Directive |
Quoting BREmer (Reply 21): As long as the tracks stay state-owned, it might actually not all that bad. The rail network around Bremen has flourished with the very comfortable Metronom serving the Hamburg route instead of DB, and the Nordwestbahn is expanding as well, putting several rail lines that were formerly underserved or out of service successfully back into business. |
Quoting Mrniji (Reply 20): These EU directives and other international agreements are all screwed up by the, in my eyes, false doctrine of neoliberal thought... it is a pitty.. they screwed up Latin America, Africa, and what next? |
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30): |
Quoting Pelican (Reply 9): The arguably most efficient railway system on Earth is privately owned, too - the Japan Railway Group. |
Quoting BREmer (Reply 21): The rail network around Bremen has flourished with the very comfortable Metronom serving the Hamburg route instead of DB |
Quoting BREmer (Reply 21): and the Nordwestbahn is expanding as well, putting several rail lines that were formerly underserved or out of service successfully back into business. |
Quoting LH526 (Reply 11): hence allowing for more diversity due to more private train companies spreading into the market ... now they still remain #2 on several routes as the DB owns the tracks and gently refuses competition. |
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32): The Shinkansen is expensive and the only alternative is a "semi-fast" (read: slow) train that stops everywhere and needs an eternity to take you to city B. The interior of both trains resemble our trains from the 80s - only that our trains didn't have a 3-2 abreast. |
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32): Trains are uncomfortable and comparatively slow, conductors are by no means more friendly and they let those old but beautiful stations rot by replacing them with way to few shelters - the same shelters you see at bus stops. |
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32): Quoting BREmer (Reply 21): The rail network around Bremen has flourished with the very comfortable Metronom serving the Hamburg route instead of DB I have used the Metronom at least twice and avoid it, thank you. |
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32): And if "diversity" means that I have to wonder if I can simply hop on the next train if I have missed the first, and that the 70-year-old Grandma or Grandpa has difficulties finding the connection that serves her/him best - possibly without surfing the net for half an hour and without walking from counter A to counter N - then thanks but no thanks. |
Quoting Aloges (Reply 24):
That means, even if it's a bit vague for an encyclopedia entry, that the EU doesn't have much - if any, really - influence on the implementation of the directives of its Council. The Council, i.e. the member states' ministers, sets the guidelines, and the member states decide for themselves how to turn them into laws |
Quoting WSOY (Reply 35): Yes, they have the "freedom" to make them into national laws. |
Quoting WSOY (Reply 35): Seems to me those who favour the EU are still somehow ashamed of it |
Quoting Antdenatale (Reply 4): This is not the fault of privatisation within the UK, |
Quoting Pelican (Reply 33):
And was is the alternative to the ICE? The semi-fast IC which is only nearly as fast as the ICE when the ICE doesn't run on high speed tracks. |
Quoting Pelican (Reply 33):
Fortunately you won't find this on the majority of the less important regional DB routes |
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32): I have used the Metronom at least twice and avoid it, thank you. |
Quoting Aloges (Reply 34): Same here. I have to use it to get from my home town to the nearest ICE station (Göttingen), I totally disagree with the "very comfortable" bit. I'm tall and everything longer than, say, five stops on that train is seriously bad. |
Quoting Aloges (Reply 34): Anyway, the Metronom is almost entirely state-owned as well, just like many other competitors of DB. |
Quoting Aloges (Reply 37): Lastly, please take your hatred for the EU elsewhere as this thread is clearly not about the EU itself. |
Quoting Aloges (Reply 37): Anyway, we've proven that the EU Council is not an instrument of forced centralisation, but one of democratic power-sharing. |
Quoting BREmer (Reply 40): It's a regional train, so you can't compare it to the ICE. But when I compare it to the regional rolling stock of the big two-letter-company, it wins in every category IMO. |
Quoting WSOY (Reply 41):
Why don't you take your obvious love of the EU elsewhere then? |
Quoting WSOY (Reply 41):
It's not illegal -- yet -- to speak openly about the nature of the EU. |
Quoting WSOY (Reply 41):
I'll believe you the day the national parliaments can veto the EU directives and statutes! |
Quoting Aloges (Reply 43): I'll believe you the day the national parliaments can veto the EU directives and statutes! They can, by leaving the EU. |
Quoting WSOY (Reply 44):
And you're asking me to not be rediculous! |
Quoting Aloges (Reply 45): So you agree it would be "rediculous" to leave the EU? Most interesting... |
Quoting LH459 (Reply 29): Hear hear! There are some things that should always belong to the public at large rather than private interest. Trains are just one example, particularly in Europe where the rail infrastructure was built with public funds! I recognize that the DB I knew in my childhood is long gone, and it makes me want to cry |
Quoting WSOY (Reply 46): For assignment |
Quoting EU2007.de:
Constitution a difficult issue Merkel reaffirmed her desire to draw up a road map for the constitution by the end of her presidency. "This is going to be a difficult issue to get through. We’re going to need the cooperation of all the member states," she said. Barroso was pleased that Germany sees the constitution as a key objective for the coming six months. "In a Europe with twenty-seven member states we need instruments other than the ones we have had in the past. We need to adapt our institutions to the new circumstances," he said. |
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32): That being said, we already have more privately held railway companies in Germany than anywhere else in Europe, including Britain if I'm not mistaken. |
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 39): I have been self-employed for the last 8 or 9 years. No one needs to tell me anything about the benefits of the free market. But I believe the free market is not everything and does have its borders. |