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LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
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Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Tue May 15, 2007 9:28 pm

The DB Privatization A.net thread ...

Hey guys , I was thinking of open a thread about this important Topic in German Politics to Time .

The Bundesregierung is trying to sell the DB for about 10 billion € , being 100 - 150 € billion Worth !

The DB belongs to all German citizens , so they are defrauding us by 90 - 140 Billion € !!

The worse :

1) Prices will rise

2) Not profitable regions to serve , will not have service anymore .

3) 60 000 - 80 000 workers will lose their Job

4) We will still have to pay to the investor to keep routes open , but we don´t have any force to the usage of the money .


A Investor , look to make as much as money as possible , routes to for example Sachsen Anhalt are not profitable , but
as the State has not an interest in make fast money , it´s still served , so routes like MUC - FRA subzidize this other routes .

Last year the DB had the biggest Profit in History , this was by a trick , The CEO Mehdorn wanted to show a high profit to possible investors , and to obtain the profit regrettably by not investing sufficiently rails and other infrastructures .
The DB is profitable , but we don´t need billion Profits , we need a reliable , safe and Cheap Bahn .

Main interest of investors is not the rail business but the enormous terrains and Buildings in the whole country mainly in the centers of the big cities like Stuttgart , imagine the worth of such a large terrain as the HBF in Stuttgart .



See what happened in Great Britain , trains are not punctual , tickets more expensive , bad quality , bad infrastructure .

It was a disaster !


This can´t be in our interest ! Lass es nicht zu !

I recommend you this site :

www.bahn-fuer-alle.de

Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!


Konstantin
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
pilotdude09
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Tue May 15, 2007 11:29 pm

excuse my ignorance but is this the German Railway system?

If so it shouldnt be privatised because good bye everything you know now and hello higer prices, worst service. First thing investors do is strip the assets and have all the money and then they 'forget' about running the business.
Qantas, Still calling Australia Home.........
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Tue May 15, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting Pilotdude09 (Reply 1):
excuse my ignorance but is this the German Railway system?

exactly
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Tue May 15, 2007 11:47 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
The Bundesregierung is trying to sell the DB for about 10 billion € , being 100 - 150 € billion Worth !

Is it to be sold on the stock-exchange in small shares to a wide public ? Or is it sold to a big company or a consortium, and if so to whom really ?
-

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
See what happened in Great Britain , trains are not punctual , tickets more expensive , bad quality , bad infrastructure

I back in autumn 1972, when BR was state-owned as were the GreenLine buses, used British railroads and the tube during three months and the trains were not punctual, tickets were expensive even if compared to Switzerland, the service was of bad quality and the infrastructure was bad. Nothing has changed.
-
 
antdenatale
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Tue May 15, 2007 11:52 pm

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
See what happened in Great Britain , trains are not punctual , tickets more expensive , bad quality , bad infrastructure

This is not the fault of privatisation within the UK, the reason the railways are in such a mess is due to successive governments underfunding routine renewals. There is more money being spent improving the railways in Britain than ever before. There are more passengers travelling than ever and punctuality is on the rise. The UK also has one of the youngest train fleets.

OK, the fare's charged are more expensive than most other countries, this is simple economics, you charge highier for a service that is in demand.

All in all, I don't think privatisation has been such a bad thing!
 
mrniji
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 12:34 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):

I fully agree with your post. I did some work on India's railways, the backbone of the country. A privatization will cause remote areas not to be served in the interest of the people. Moreover, it is dangerous to solely rely on economic efficiency, when it comes to serve the citizen's needs. I do not mind subsidies to eschew losses of the Deutsche Bahn, as long as their strategy caters the interests of the people.

Another fallacy pro-privatization people bring are operational numbers. They argue with profit/loss on routes for the planning. However, operational losses can result in gains for the entire economy. In other words: sometimes it is necessary to have losses on certain routes, because the entire economy will benefit. Thus, simple calculations often don't work. And I don;t mind state subsidies, as long they have a positive impact on the economy or on the need of people who live "away from the metropolis".

Privatization is often seen as panacea for everything, but it is dangerous to sell the state and give it in the hand of private investors, who only serve their shareholders, and not the country per se.
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 12:50 am

Quoting Antdenatale (Reply 4):
There is more money being spent improving the railways in Britain than ever before. There are more passengers travelling than ever and punctuality is on the rise. The UK also has one of the youngest train fleets.

OK, the fare's charged are more expensive than most other countries, this is simple economics, you charge highier for a service that is in demand.

All in all, I don't think privatisation has been such a bad thing!

Thanks for this. I in recent years HAD the impression that things about railways in Britain were on their way UP
-

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 5):
A privatization will cause remote areas not to be served in the interest of the people.

Not necessarily. If the system includes licences to be given to private companies doing public service, and which clearly define the conditions these companies have to fulfil, then the service also of remote areas will be secured.
 
flyorski
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):
The DB is profitable , but we don´t need billion Profits , we need a reliable , safe and Cheap Bahn .

EXACTLY!!!!  checkmark   checkmark 

This would be terrible! DB is great, because it exists for ALL PEOPLE, not for some damn corporation who just wants to steal as much money as possible before bailing out, and letting the rails shut down.

Germany needs a state run Train.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 1:28 am

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 7):
state run Train.

and what about a system where "the state", union, states, towns, villages, give licences with clearly defined conditions to interested companies ? Where I work, the buses are "done" by a private company, operating A) under a licence of four towns and B) in conjunction with public transport of the Greater Zurich Area, which means the same tariffs. The waste-disposal-service is done by a private company as well, under the licence of the town in question. They are not allowed to reduce services. The "state" in fact can retreat to a licencing and supervising function, setting rules and conditions.
 
pelican
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Thread starter):

See what happened in Great Britain , trains are not punctual , tickets more expensive , bad quality , bad infrastructure

And? What do want to imply with your statement?

The arguably most efficient railway system on Earth is privately owned, too - the Japan Railway Group.

Following your logic I could argue that we get faster trains and a better infrastructure after privatisation, because the Japanese railway is also privately owned.

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 7):
This would be terrible! DB is great, because it exists for ALL PEOPLE, not for some damn corporation who just wants to steal as much money as possible before bailing out, and letting the rails shut down.

Those times are long gone. The DB is already a stock company and it is run like a private company for years. The federal state is the owner.

I'm pro privatisation. I prefer that the railway tracks remain owned by the public, though. The DB needs more competition! Unfortunately I don't see more competition with the proposed privatisation plan but only a public monopole structure becoming private - like the German power and gas companies.

pelican
 
mrniji
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):
The DB needs more competition!

Actually, LHStarAlliance's comments are quite accurate. When I lived in Britain, I observed how badly Competition in the railway sector can be... and the pressure for profits --> decrease in security --> Danger of accidents!

Personally, I believe the railways are too important to let competitive pressures and free market forces play....
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
LH526
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):
I'm pro privatisation. I prefer that the railway tracks remain owned by the public, though. The DB needs more competition!

Right ... stop this lefty whining ...  Smile You will have much more diversity if the tracks stay with the state and only the rolling material (trains, cars, ....) will be privatized ... hence allowing for more diversity due to more private train companies spreading into the market ... now they still remain #2 on several routes as the DB owns the tracks and gently refuses competition.

Mario
LH526
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
pelican
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 2:43 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 10):

Actually, LHStarAlliance's comments are quite accurate. When I lived in Britain, I observed how badly Competition in the railway sector can be... and the pressure for profits --> decrease in security --> Danger of accidents!

How about not enough funding as reason for those problems? The East German railway (DR) was state owned and competition free. Nonetheless the infrastructure was in a bad shape.
The Japanese railways are privately owned. Nonetheless the infrastructure is in very good conditions and as far as I know the trains are punctual and safe. Hence the connection between privatisation and bad quality is not cogent.
Look at aviation. I don't see that privatisation and increased competition made LH unsafe. They are 100% privately owned since 1997 and the majority of shares is privately owned since 1994. Their last fatal accident was in 1993...

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 10):
Personally, I believe the railways are too important to let competitive pressures and free market forces play....

Fortunately for some remote areas in Germany we already have some competition. There are routes operated by small railway companies which the DB had already abandoned...

Quoting LH526 (Reply 11):
Right ... stop this lefty whining ... Smile You will have much more diversity if the tracks stay with the state and only the rolling material (trains, cars, ....) will be privatized ... hence allowing for more diversity due to more private train companies spreading into the market .

Exactly.

pelican
 
mrniji
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 2:48 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 12):
Look at aviation. I don't see that privatisation and increased competition made LH unsafe. They are 100% privately owned since 1997 and the majority of shares is privately owned since 1994. Their last fatal accident was in 1993...

I respect your opinion, as you have valid points, and I agree that some points are quite strong. However, I would be a little careful with cross-sectoral comparisons. Aviation and railways have "different tasks to solve". And, definitely good to learn from other countries, but we should be careful in estimating whether this would work in Germany.

Obviously, the opinion one has matches with one's general opinion (i.e. pro/contra privatization, left/conservative etc.). - which is fair enough, as we live in a democracy. As said, personally I don't trust big corporations, thus the reasoning for my approach. But maybe a middle way would be sth fine...
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
pelican
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 13):

I respect your opinion, as you have valid points, and I agree that some points are quite strong. However, I would be a little careful with cross-sectoral comparisons. Aviation and railways have "different tasks to solve". And, definitely good to learn from other countries, but we should be careful in estimating whether this would work in Germany.

Sure such a comparison is problematic as are superficial cross-country comparisons. What we can learn from aviation is that monitoring safety is crucial.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 13):
Obviously, the opinion one has matches with one's general opinion (i.e. pro/contra privatization, left/conservative etc.). -

Well, my opinion is that there are things which should not be privatised - for example air traffic control while other things should be regulated and monitored like transport systems.

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 13):
As said, personally I don't trust big corporations,

Me too. It's just that neither do I trust state owned corporations like DB. Hence I hope for some competition. Now there are only two alternatives to DB - cars and air travel (both not very eco-friendly) but no other railway companies. Therefore I wish for a state owned railway network and many smaller train companies.

pelican


edit: typo

[Edited 2007-05-15 20:18:46]
 
aloges
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 3:29 am

I think I could live with a privatisation under two conditions:

1. all infrastructure - mainly the lines, stations and control centres - remains in the hands of the public
2. everything better than a 5, 10, or maybe even 15% profit goes directly towards the infrastructure, same for all other railway companies

Condition #2 will hopefully prevent hedge funds from taking over DB in the name of record quarterly profits they can print on their high-gloss advertising brochures. The rail network is just as vital to our country as airports and roads, so it would be utterly foolish to jeopardise its upkeep.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ZRH
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 3:41 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 8):
and what about a system where "the state", union, states, towns, villages, give licences with clearly defined conditions to interested companies ? Where I work, the buses are "done" by a private company, operating A) under a licence of four towns and B) in conjunction with public transport of the Greater Zurich Area, which means the same tariffs. The waste-disposal-service is done by a private company as well, under the licence of the town in question. They are not allowed to reduce services. The "state" in fact can retreat to a licencing and supervising function, setting rules and conditions.

Exactly. This is what I also wanted to say. Private companies in public transportation need not to be bad and more expensive. We have a lot of examples here in Switzerland where private companies run public bus systems. But, as said, the the cities and states must make obligations to the companies who wish to run such routes. For example fares or which places are to be served and how many times a day etc.
 
WSOY
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 4:48 am

Privatization is what Brussels wants, and privatization is what it will get -- by law!

In December [2005] EU transport ministers agreed rules ordering member states to prepare the ground for 'liberalisation' of their railways by 2010. This decision means that each member state will be asked to comply in the next four years with various directives dealing with railways, including Council Directive 91/440/EEC.


http://www.spectrezine.org/europe/Denny4.htm

[Edited 2007-05-15 22:05:16]
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
LHStarAlliance
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 4:56 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):

Hey guy they´re defrauding you by 90-140 billion Euros !
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
pelican
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting LHStarAlliance (Reply 18):
Hey guy they´re defrauding you by 90-140 billion Euros !

I've only said that I agree with the idea of privatisation under certain circumstances. Whether they sell DB under its real value I can't judge with the information I have at the moment.

Quoting WSOY (Reply 17):
Privatization is what Brussels wants, and this it what it will get -- by law!

You should read again:
EU transport ministers agreed rules ordering member states to prepare which means our national governments and not "Brussels" want privatisation. This would correspond with plans of the German government to privatise the German railway.

pelican

edit: typo

[Edited 2007-05-15 22:17:34]
 
mrniji
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting WSOY (Reply 17):
Privatization is what Brussels wants, and privatization is what it will get -- by law!

These EU directives and other international agreements are all screwed up by the, in my eyes, false doctrine of neoliberal thought... it is a pitty.. they screwed up Latin America, Africa, and what next?  Angry
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
BREmer
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 6:46 am

As long as the tracks stay state-owned, it might actually not all that bad. The rail network around Bremen has flourished with the very comfortable Metronom serving the Hamburg route instead of DB, and the Nordwestbahn is expanding as well, putting several rail lines that were formerly underserved or out of service successfully back into business.

Lukas
 
WSOY
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 7:00 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 19):
Quoting WSOY (Reply 17):
Privatization is what Brussels wants, and this it what it will get -- by law!

You should read again:
EU transport ministers agreed rules ordering member states to prepare which means our national governments and not "Brussels" want privatisation. This would correspond with plans of the German government to privatise the German railway.

If you had included all of my original, you'd have noticed the reference to the Council Directive , reading on-line here The Directives, you may want to recall, are already legally binding the national Governments as such. The Community in other words has the final say over matters such as privatization, not the Nations!

[Edited 2007-05-16 00:03:16]
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
WSOY
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 7:05 am

Quoting BREmer (Reply 21):
As long as the tracks stay state-owned, it might actually not all that bad.

The Directive on this reads: ... -by separating the management of railway operation and infrastructure from the provision of railway transport services, separation of accounts being compulsory and organizational or institutional separation being optional, (source above)
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
aloges
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 7:52 am

Quoting WSOY (Reply 22):
reference to the Council Directive , reading on-line here

I haven't the faintest idea what that Google script on top of that page is trying to tell me, but anyway: here's some info on the Council of the EU, provided by itself - and I guess they should know who they are, if anybody.  Wink

Quoting consilium.europa.eu:
Council of the European Union

The Council is the main decision-making body of the European Union


The ministers of the Member States meet within the Council of the European Union. Depending on the issue on the agenda, each country will be represented by the minister responsible for that subject (foreign affairs, finance, social affairs, transport, agriculture, etc.).

The presidency of the Council is held for six months by each Member State on a rotational basis.

So it really isn't "Brussels", whose members are elected directly or indirectly by the people(s) of the EU anyway, but the responsible ministers who make the directives of the Council of the EU - because they are the Council!

And this is some more info found on Wikipedia:

Quoting Wikipedia:
A directive is a legislative act of the European Union which requires member states to achieve a particular result without dictating the means of achieving that result. It can be distinguished from European Union regulations which are self-executing and do not require any implementing measures. Directives normally leave member states with a certain amount of leeway as to the exact rules to be adopted. Directives can be adopted by means of a variety of legislative procedures depending on subject matter of the directive.

That means, even if it's a bit vague for an encyclopedia entry, that the EU doesn't have much - if any, really - influence on the implementation of the directives of its Council. The Council, i.e. the member states' ministers, sets the guidelines, and the member states decide for themselves how to turn them into laws. There's pretty little "Brussels" or centralism in that, actually. Big grin

So after that is cleared up and explained, can we please get back on the topic of this thread?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
pelican
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 7:57 am

Quoting WSOY (Reply 22):
If you had included all of my original, you'd have noticed the reference to the Council Directive

And who is the council? If you answer this question you'll probably understand what I meant in reply 19.

pelican

edit: Aloges reply made already clear what I meant. It was not Brussels but our goverments that made the decision.

[Edited 2007-05-16 01:06:40]
 
aloges
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 7:59 am

Quoting Pelican (Reply 25):
And who is the council?

It does appear that we agree.  Wink
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
pelican
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 8:01 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 26):
It does appear that we agree.

Indeed.  bigthumbsup 

pelican
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 9:11 am

Quoting BREmer (Reply 21):
As long as the tracks stay state-owned, it might actually not all that bad. The rail network around Bremen has flourished with the very comfortable Metronom serving the Hamburg route instead of DB, and the Nordwestbahn is expanding as well, putting several rail lines that were formerly underserved or out of service successfully back into business.

-
So that private entreprise clearly brought improvements to the travelling public !
-
 
LH459
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 10:31 am

Quoting Mrniji (Reply 20):
These EU directives and other international agreements are all screwed up by the, in my eyes, false doctrine of neoliberal thought... it is a pitty.. they screwed up Latin America, Africa, and what next?

Hear hear! There are some things that should always belong to the public at large rather than private interest. Trains are just one example, particularly in Europe where the rail infrastructure was built with public funds! I recognize that the DB I knew in my childhood is long gone, and it makes me want to  cry 
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 11:28 am

Quoting LH459 (Reply 29):
DB I knew in my childhood is long gone

you mean this one :
http://www.stadtarchiv-schaffhausen.ch/Bildgross/156038.jpg
http://www.stadtarchiv-schaffhausen.ch/Bildgross/156048.jpg
http://www.stadtarchiv-schaffhausen.ch/Bildgross/156054.jpg
 
mrniji
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 12:08 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 30):

These excellent pictures remind me of the so-called "Black beauties" in India. Every locomotive had a separate identity, steam-driven engines, and was maintained by the train driver like a child.. every station maintained by someone who defined it like the lob of his life, his vocation then, the age of 'efficiency' came  sarcastic  - Diesel locomotives, without character, replaced them.. only coz they were faster.. things have to be faster nowadays.. competitive pressures, profit-making, "unprofitable remote stations closed down, destroying the local economy of remote areas".. not full employment and not social objectives to be fulfilled...  Embarrassment
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
NoUFO
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 12:11 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 9):
The arguably most efficient railway system on Earth is privately owned, too - the Japan Railway Group.

The Shinkansen is expensive and the only alternative is a "semi-fast" (read: slow) train that stops everywhere and needs an eternity to take you to city B. The interior of both trains resemble our trains from the 80s - only that our trains didn't have a 3-2 abreast.

Quoting BREmer (Reply 21):
The rail network around Bremen has flourished with the very comfortable Metronom serving the Hamburg route instead of DB

I have used the Metronom at least twice and avoid it, thank you.

Quoting BREmer (Reply 21):
and the Nordwestbahn is expanding as well, putting several rail lines that were formerly underserved or out of service successfully back into business.

This is a prime example for a privately held monopoly. Trains are uncomfortable and comparatively slow, conductors are by no means more friendly and they let those old but beautiful stations rot by replacing them with way to few shelters - the same shelters you see at bus stops.

Quoting LH526 (Reply 11):
hence allowing for more diversity due to more private train companies spreading into the market ... now they still remain #2 on several routes as the DB owns the tracks and gently refuses competition.

This can happen, hence I don't oppose privatization by all means, but people seem to forget that competition will always be very limited as you can not simply build new railroad tracks but in general have to stick to the already existing network and keep enough separation between each train. German railways are slot-restricted so to speak. This makes cut-throat competition difficult and promotes alliances that aren't necessarily customer-friendly.

And if "diversity" means that I have to wonder if I can simply hop on the next train if I have missed the first, and that the 70-year-old Grandma or Grandpa has difficulties finding the connection that serves her/him best - possibly without surfing the net for half an hour and without walking from counter A to counter N - then thanks but no thanks.

That being said, we already have more privately held railway companies in Germany than anywhere else in Europe, including Britain if I'm not mistaken.
I support the right to arm bears
 
pelican
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 5:36 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32):

The Shinkansen is expensive and the only alternative is a "semi-fast" (read: slow) train that stops everywhere and needs an eternity to take you to city B. The interior of both trains resemble our trains from the 80s - only that our trains didn't have a 3-2 abreast.

And was is the alternative to the ICE? The semi-fast IC which is only nearly as fast as the ICE when the ICE doesn't run on high speed tracks. Unfortunately this is often the case because the German high-speed network is somewhat underdeveloped. The ICE isn't cheap either.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32):
Trains are uncomfortable and comparatively slow, conductors are by no means more friendly and they let those old but beautiful stations rot by replacing them with way to few shelters - the same shelters you see at bus stops.

Fortunately you won't find this on the majority of the less important regional DB routes  Yeah sure

pelican
 
aloges
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RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 5:39 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32):
Quoting BREmer (Reply 21):
The rail network around Bremen has flourished with the very comfortable Metronom serving the Hamburg route instead of DB

I have used the Metronom at least twice and avoid it, thank you.

Same here. I have to use it to get from my home town to the nearest ICE station (Göttingen), I totally disagree with the "very comfortable" bit. I'm tall and everything longer than, say, five stops on that train is seriously bad. Anyway, the Metronom is almost entirely state-owned as well, just like many other competitors of DB.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32):
And if "diversity" means that I have to wonder if I can simply hop on the next train if I have missed the first, and that the 70-year-old Grandma or Grandpa has difficulties finding the connection that serves her/him best - possibly without surfing the net for half an hour and without walking from counter A to counter N - then thanks but no thanks.

Good point. Especially concerning low-volume regional services, one has to wonder whether more competition would mean more and better service. If a service is subsidised already because it's low-volume, then competing operators will hardly be able to miraculously increase passenger numbers. It may very well work on routes such as Cologne-Frankfurt or Hamburg-Berlin where those new ICE-T services gained lots of popularity, but not on Frankenthal-Ramsen.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
WSOY
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:24 pm

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 24):
That means, even if it's a bit vague for an encyclopedia entry, that the EU doesn't have much - if any, really - influence on the implementation of the directives of its Council. The Council, i.e. the member states' ministers, sets the guidelines, and the member states decide for themselves how to turn them into laws

Yes, they have the "freedom" to make them into national laws. A bit like a dog has a "freedom" to do as his master wants to. If you bite your master, you'll be punished -- a Government can be summoned to the EU court for not complying with a directive within the given timeframe.

Seems to me those who favour the EU are still somehow ashamed of it, actions outlined far back in the directives and the directly applicable EU law are routinely presented in the media as having originated from the national parlamentarian level, when the reality points elsewere.

The pro-EU people: just rejoice in the wonderful apparatus that hands the people the working, competitive, efficient internal dare I say domestic EEA economy! No more hiding behind the past nationalism!

[Edited 2007-05-16 10:54:12]
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
ACDC8
Posts: 7909
Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2005 6:56 pm

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 5:46 pm

The Bahn isn't what it used to be. They used to thrive on punctuality, but this has really suffered over the last years. My daily commute when I lived there last year was from Mülheim a.d Ruhr to Borken and it was delayed more then half of the time. On my last day of work, it took me almost 5 hours to get home instead of the usual 2, and that wasn't the first time either.

Oh well, what am I complaining about, at least you guys have a decent train system. Either way, if it stays State owned or not, just be glad you have it.
A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 6:01 pm

Quoting WSOY (Reply 35):
Yes, they have the "freedom" to make them into national laws.

They have every freedom to define the details of their own laws. That often ends up being more important than the guidelines set forth by the EU Council.

Quoting WSOY (Reply 35):
Seems to me those who favour the EU are still somehow ashamed of it

I actually laughed out loud when I read this, literally. I am in no way, shape or form ashamed to admit that I am very much in favour of the EU. Au contraire, I'm happy to say I am - that's why I put it in my a.net profile ages ago. Anyway, we've proven that the EU Council is not an instrument of forced centralisation, but one of democratic power-sharing. If you can counter that with nothing better than a dog-master "analogy", we won't need to expand on it. Lastly, please take your hatred for the EU elsewhere as this thread is clearly not about the EU itself.
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ThePRGuy
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:07 am

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 6:11 pm

Quoting Antdenatale (Reply 4):
This is not the fault of privatisation within the UK,

Yes, It is.

British Rail as oppposed to all these other companies is a far more attractive option.

Alex
Heathrow has been described as the only building site to have its own airport.
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 6:47 pm

Quoting Pelican (Reply 33):
And was is the alternative to the ICE? The semi-fast IC which is only nearly as fast as the ICE when the ICE doesn't run on high speed tracks.

Look, you have said how effective the Japanese system was and stressed there's a private company behind if. But in the end, all boils down to what customers can expect. Punctuality is one point but comfort and prices are other aspects. I don't believe our system can't compete against Japan's.

Quoting Pelican (Reply 33):
Fortunately you won't find this on the majority of the less important regional DB routes

Now you are going for a tit-for-tat approach. I thought you wanted something better?

Some Germans are simply crazy when it comes to DB and privatization. I remember an extremly cold Christmas evening when almost all trains came to a stop due to heavily iced catenary interrupting contact. I was one of the stranded passengers btw. One commentator on tagesschau.de's forum wondered why DB's trains came to a stop, but not Nordwestbahn's . The reason, however, is simple: NWB use diesel powerd trains. The flip side of the coin is that they don't go faster than 90 km/h. Anyone who want's to go Hamburg - Frankurt on a diesel powered train going 70 or 90 km/h?
Another one wanted DB to serve drinks - actually he demanded mulled wine ("Glühwein") - to stranded passengers. That's plain stupid.

I recall an article on Nordwestbahn published in Weser Kurier, a newspaper from Bremen. It featured a photo showing a crowded NWB commuter train. The subtitle read: "Countless customers welcome NWB's service". If it was a DB-train, it would have simply been a cramped, uncomfortable train, right?

Metronom uses exactly the same train DB use for some of their routes. In the case of DB, the train is considered uncomfortable, painted in Metronom's yellow, the same train all of a sudden becomes highly comfortable. If I ask those people if they had a window seat and if yes, if they didn't feel a bit uncomfortable, it goes like "uuuuh oooh, weeeell, I'm a small person, you know ...". :-|

I have been self-employed for the last 8 or 9 years. No one needs to tell me anything about the benefits of the free market. But I believe the free market is not everything and does have its borders.
I say we have one of the world's best railway system, now careful with changing a running system. Nothing against profits, but profits don't rank first.

[Edited 2007-05-16 11:50:26]
I support the right to arm bears
 
BREmer
Posts: 498
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 7:50 pm

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 6:48 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32):
I have used the Metronom at least twice and avoid it, thank you.



Quoting Aloges (Reply 34):
Same here. I have to use it to get from my home town to the nearest ICE station (Göttingen), I totally disagree with the "very comfortable" bit. I'm tall and everything longer than, say, five stops on that train is seriously bad.

It's a regional train, so you can't compare it to the ICE. But when I compare it to the regional rolling stock of the big two-letter-company, it wins in every category IMO.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 34):
Anyway, the Metronom is almost entirely state-owned as well, just like many other competitors of DB.

60% belongs to the state-owned NiedersachenBahn, the rest to the Hamburger Hochbahn AG and to a small portion the Bremer Straßenbahn AG. That might not even be a bad strategy, as I guess the state government would generally care more about regional train networks than DB aiming at the stock market.

Lukas
 
WSOY
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:24 pm

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 6:55 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 37):
Lastly, please take your hatred for the EU elsewhere as this thread is clearly not about the EU itself.

Oh, sorry. I forgot that some do not want to be reminded of the "inconvenient facts". Why don't you take your obvious love of the EU elsewhere then? It's not illegal -- yet -- to speak openly about the nature of the EU.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 37):
Anyway, we've proven that the EU Council is not an instrument of forced centralisation, but one of democratic power-sharing.

I'll believe you the day the national parliaments can veto the EU directives and statutes!
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 6:58 pm

Quoting BREmer (Reply 40):
It's a regional train, so you can't compare it to the ICE. But when I compare it to the regional rolling stock of the big two-letter-company, it wins in every category IMO.

Compared to DB's old and rotten rolling stock used before the introduction of the Metronom, the latter certainly wins. But then again, DB's service was an embarrassment, to the Metronom I'm just indifferent.

And maybe that is the ticket: regional train services don't have to be stellar. They have to be on time, reasonably fast, offer a certain minimum comfort and run frequently enough to be attractive. That's all, we can keep the wood & polished chromium interiors for the ICE. People spend long hours on those trains as opposed to 15, 30 minutes, so the additional cost is justified. Now, if only they could refurbish - or better yet, replace - those jurassic IC carriages!
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 7:07 pm

Quoting WSOY (Reply 41):
Why don't you take your obvious love of the EU elsewhere then?

Hmm... It could of course be because I responded to someone who was insisting that the Council of the EU was an anti-democratic centralist institution. Now if only I could remember who that was. My first reply in this thread pertained solely to the issue at hand, read for yourself what yours was about. I think it's a bit rich that you're lecturing me.
I am definitely critical of the EU, but not of the idea of a pan-European entity. However, that idea is what the average a.net eurosceptic bashes, as opposed to the system we have and should improve. Once again, and hopefully for the last time, if you really believe our trade-wise united EU should shred what little political power it has (compared to giants like the USA, China and Russia) to small little nationalist bits, then start a thread on it.

Quoting WSOY (Reply 41):
It's not illegal -- yet -- to speak openly about the nature of the EU.

Please, don't be ridiculous.

Quoting WSOY (Reply 41):
I'll believe you the day the national parliaments can veto the EU directives and statutes!

They can, by leaving the EU. That way they won't have to follow EU regulations. However, the better option seems to be the exact opposite: signing bilateral agreements (examples: Switzerland and Norway) where you agree to adopt regulations on which you've had little if any influence.

[Edited 2007-05-16 12:12:54]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
WSOY
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:24 pm

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 7:09 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 43):
I'll believe you the day the national parliaments can veto the EU directives and statutes!

They can, by leaving the EU.

And you're asking me to not be rediculous! But thanks for agreeing with me, anyways!
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 7:13 pm

Quoting WSOY (Reply 44):
And you're asking me to not be rediculous!

So you agree it would be "rediculous" to leave the EU? Most interesting...

edit/addition: See, that veto right you demand would be anti-democratic to the core. It would mean that one national parliament, be it the one of Malta (smallest population) or the one of Germany (biggest population), could halt the EU on any matter it wants. The way it is now, there's a huge amount of overrepresentation of small EU members in the Council, and that is good. But veto rights are usually restricted to presidents, and that is for even better reasons. A veto right for every single EU member would practically render the EU useless.

[Edited 2007-05-16 12:35:37]
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
WSOY
Posts: 822
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 10:24 pm

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 7:30 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 45):
So you agree it would be "rediculous" to leave the EU? Most interesting...

If you like. For assignment: review the openness policy of the European Council decisionmaking, in your own time.
"Nukkuessa tulee nälkä" (Nipsu)
 
LHStarAlliance
Topic Author
Posts: 2096
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 9:15 pm

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 7:37 pm

Quoting LH459 (Reply 29):

Hear hear! There are some things that should always belong to the public at large rather than private interest. Trains are just one example, particularly in Europe where the rail infrastructure was built with public funds! I recognize that the DB I knew in my childhood is long gone, and it makes me want to cry

Mehdorn did this intentionally , to produce a high
profit , but this just was possible cutting mone for investion or renewal of the infrastructure , the high profit was "needed" in his opinion to attract the attention of investors , but who wonders when then all trains are late because of bad rails !

The DB has to stay in public hand , if not just the profit will rule !


Konstantin
Boycott The Olympic Games In Beijing !
 
aloges
Posts: 14807
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 3:38 am

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 7:42 pm

Quoting WSOY (Reply 46):
For assignment

Thanks, but I'm not in highschool anymore.  sarcastic  I've duly noticed the EU-bashing thread you just started, most interesting again that you, the "Economist" and others believe the official agenda of the German EU presidency to be a secret:

Quoting EU2007.de:
Constitution a difficult issue

Merkel reaffirmed her desire to draw up a road map for the constitution by the end of her presidency. "This is going to be a difficult issue to get through. We’re going to need the cooperation of all the member states," she said.

Barroso was pleased that Germany sees the constitution as a key objective for the coming six months. "In a Europe with twenty-seven member states we need instruments other than the ones we have had in the past. We need to adapt our institutions to the new circumstances," he said.

Some well-informed sources you have...  sarcastic 
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
mrniji
Posts: 5382
Joined: Sun Feb 29, 2004 11:51 am

RE: Keep Deutsche Bahn , My Deutsche Bahn!

Wed May 16, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 32):

That being said, we already have more privately held railway companies in Germany than anywhere else in Europe, including Britain if I'm not mistaken.

Interesting. Thanks for this info

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 39):

I have been self-employed for the last 8 or 9 years. No one needs to tell me anything about the benefits of the free market. But I believe the free market is not everything and does have its borders.

 checkmark 

I fully agree. Though I believe in markets, the empirical work I have been doing in Uni for years comes to a similar conclusion. Market forces are fantastic. People acting as entrepreneurs should be able to fulfill their capacity. However, market forces need to be controlled. We need to prevent social davinism of big corporations, who act for their shareholders and not for the public interests. Goods like water, railways, air (!!!!), etc. should never be privatized and given in the hand of people "playing games with the economy". The ascending inequality as consequence of an extreme pro-market-policy is worrisome. To repeat: I am all for trade, markets, etc., but want a monitoring instance to redirect the profits, so that as many people as possible can benefit, and not only a few. I see it with the business of my parents as well, how "corporate organization" can offer cheaper prices, aggressive marketing and thus damp any incentive for local entrepreneurs. I sometimes wonder what the interest of the managers in the economy is? Maybe there is a need for policies, that are earmarked towards full employment of the market.. for this, state intervention is needed. Look at East Asia - the shining example for extreme state intervention and redistributive policies - and maybe the West this time can learn from their experiences and make corporate and business behavior more social!
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)

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