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halls120
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 7:44 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 45):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 43):Once W's term is over, and I look back, I just might come to the conclusion about W that Carter seems intent on bestowing
Why don't you come to those conclusions now? Waiting to jump on the bandwagon then?

because his presidency isn't over yet, for starters.

As a history major in college, I was taught that reputable scholarship was conducted once a historical event had concluded.

But hey, jump to all the conclusions you want.

In the meantime, why not give us the benefit of your scholarly wisdom and explain just what positive effect Carter's outburst has achieved?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
aloges
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 7:47 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 49):
Then wait to see what happens if Hillary is elected!

Errrm... I'd rather not, to be honest. I don't know enough about the woman to form my own opinion, but judging from the opinions I've read about her it'll make the current bashing seem like a playground fight.

At the risk of making this an off topic post: I'd love to see a Democratic succeed so that the GOP has a reason to send its far-right loony members where they belong, but is there really anyone among the DNC candidates who'd likely be elected and turn out a "uniter"?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 47):
Last time I checked, this was a place where we can voice our opinion.

I agree . . . no need for this  sarcastic . I'm not begrudging your opinion, I simply disagree with it . . . .that too is allowed here . . . at least I thought so.  sarcastic 

Quoting PA110 (Reply 47):
next time I will capitalize "Moron".

Now THIS calls for this  sarcastic  . . . .

 sarcastic 
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PA110
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 7:54 am

Nothing like a free and spirited exchange of ideas and opinions.  Big grin
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MD-90
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 7:54 am

Quoting PA110 (Reply 42):
True, Carter had a very ineffective presidency, but pales in comparison by the damage done by that moron currently occupying the White House.

Hey, the airlines and the trucking industry were deregulated under his watch. Those were positive events that increased freedom, better than anything Bush has done.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 43):
Once W's term is over, and I look back, I just might come to the conclusion about W that Carter seems intent on bestowing. But if I do, it won't help Carter, because his attention whoring stunt just reaffirms my earlier opinion that Carter was one of the 5 worst presidents in US history.

And how is that possibly true? Because he didn't slaughter enough foreigners?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 39):
Klaus, I can't recall a time in history - even after Pres. Carter's abyssmal demonstration as a President, where a former President made such remarks.

Be careful about making sweeping generalizations. Some of the early presidents made scathing comments about each other (think of Jefferson vs Hamilton).

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 43):
Hopefully future presidents will have more couth and manners than Jimmy Carter.

Oh dear, how dare any former president criticize the holy office of the chief executive. Sometimes I really wonder what some people truly worship in their hearts.
 
halls120
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 7:55 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 48):
The thing also shows just how polarising the Bush administration is.

DC has been polarized for the better part of the last 20 years. It's disgusting, and both parties are to blame.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 51):
At the risk of making this an off topic post: I'd love to see a Democratic succeed so that the GOP has a reason to send its far-right loony members where they belong, but is there really anyone among the DNC candidates who'd likely be elected and turn out a "uniter"?

Bill Richardson, but he'll never get the nomination.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
rjpieces
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
It's just very inappropriate for a past president to criticize another past president, or even worse, the sitting president.

 checkmark   checkmark  You could disagree with Bush all you want, but Carter is out of line (as usual)...I know people like to call him the best ex-President, but these days he seems like the worst ex-President.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
PSA53
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 8:20 am

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 38):
That said, he's imprecise. Wilson, FDR, and Lincoln have all been worse presidents than Bush. They've either slaughtered more people or caused more people to be slaughtered than Bush and had more terrible lasting impacts on the state of our country.

Very good point.So that points to the growth of media influences.And I wonder what the outcome would have been of those presidents wars,if the media was that much of a factor and how many more lives would have been lost,like Vietnam, which reminds you of the Johnson days.

Carter gets high marks on honesty and he didn't run with the Washington crowd,and paid for it.His achievements in the Middle East peace process was miraculous,but you knew it wasn't going to hold.

But Carter is one of the most weakest presidents ever.His record seems to reflect that and deserves a just as low of a ranking as Bush.

Since there are so many entries on this thread,I haven't had the time to read all them I apologize if I repeated anyone thoughts.
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Yellowstone
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 9:04 am

First question: how does Carter criticizing the president mean that he has

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44):
jumped the shark into the Partisan Democratic Bandwagon

?
Nowhere in that article did I see Carter mention the word "Republican." In fact, he explicitly states that Bush II has deviated from the ideals upheld by such presidents as Reagan, Nixon, and Bush I, good Republicans all. Your playing the partisanship card here is inappropriate. Bush II's incompetence transcends party bounds.

Second question: why does Carter's status as a former president mean that he should shut up and watch as Bush shreds the principles Carter, and quite a lot of this nation, believes in? We can't afford for people, especially those with Carter's prominence, to shut up. Bush needs to be told over and over again until the point gets into his skull that we as a country will not let him do this, and that he is answerable to us.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 9:25 am

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 58):
Nowhere in that article did I see Carter mention the word "Republican.

Unnecessary. And you know it.

A former President 'slagging' a sitting PotUS . . . . there's only one explanation. Bush 1 didn't do it. Clinton didn't do it. Bush 2 hasn't done it. Johnson didn't do it. Nixon didn't do it . . .

Partisan politics . . . Pres. Carter has jumped the shark . . .

Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 58):
Bush II's incompetence transcends party bounds.

Opinion - again.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 9:38 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 59):
Partisan politics . . . Pres. Carter has jumped the shark . . .

ANCFlyer, you may have hit on something here. President Bush and his cronies do, in a sense, constitute their own political party. They certainly don't act like most of the Republicans and conservatives that I know. Maybe the Republicans ought to take a page out of the French Socialists' playbook and just kick Bush out of the party.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
Klaus
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 9:59 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 59):
Opinion

Sometimes it is a necessity to not shut up but to make one's opinion heard.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 11:01 am

Here's the majority take on this.

"It takes one to know one". Carter's Presidency had some foreign policy blunders...so his statements carry some weight. Afterall, can one not learn from their own failings and see them in others?

Typically former Presidents don't go around talking trash about the new/current guy. Sorry Jimmy, but you haven't really dropped a bombshell here...we already know!

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andessmf
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 11:19 am

Quoting Klaus (Reply 61):
Sometimes it is a necessity to not shut up but to make one's opinion heard.

Again, you make it seem as if this one is the first time Carter's opinion on Bush has been known. His criticism of Bush has spanned years already.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 62):
Afterall, can one not learn from their own failings and see them in others?

Does Carter believe he even committed foreign policy blunders (Iran)?
 
A332
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 11:30 am

So... at the end of this thread.. the conclusion...

It is apparently NOT okay to be critical of a sitting president, forget about that whole 'freedom of speech' thing.

What a bunch of crap... really, some of you people have no shame at all.
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Boeing4ever
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 11:55 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 63):
Does Carter believe he even committed foreign policy blunders (Iran)?

Not like he'll ever admit it...but in a way, with this statement he kind of has.

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PA110
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 2:06 pm

Quoting A332 (Reply 64):
It is apparently NOT okay to be critical of a sitting president, forget about that whole 'freedom of speech' thing.

Thank you! Pity this needs to be pointed out by our neighbor to the north, where free speech is simply a "given", not just a bunch of bullshit lip service the neoCon republiKKKans would like to see it become. God forbid we exercise our rights to free speech in the USA these days. You might be labeled disloyal, unpatriotic, not showing respect to the office, etc... What's next? Unwarranted and illegal wire taps? Oh wait, we have that already - it's called the Gonzales Justice Department. Silly me!  Yeah sure
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TedTAce
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 2:54 pm

I skipped most of the replies so whatever. I think what Cater said was right. Bush is a fidiot of the highest order and history will show Carter to be absolutely correct.
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LAXspotter
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 8):
They're just bitter because Carter is echoing the exact sentiments of most Americans


 checkmark 

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 67):
I skipped most of the replies so whatever. I think what Cater said was right. Bush is a fidiot of the highest order and history will show Carter to be absolutely correct.

 checkmark 

Carter has the guts to say what most people really believe and he gets flamed for saying it. I commend carter for his statements, a statement that few politicans are willing to make today. Although Carter may have been an upopular president, he wasnt an arrogant fool. Carter may not have solved many of the problems of his time, but atleast we didnt stick our noses into other people's affairs. As much as people would like to say a few years from now we will have a different perspective of the people today, seriously does anyone really think Bush will be looked upon as a successful president? He is going to be regarded as a failure, one who has no understanding of global affairs, doesnt give a rats ass about people's opinion at home, and simply thinks "we should stay the course", if there was signs of progress made, sure but absolutely nothing has been done except maybe the eradication of one regime which in turn will lead to another regime led by religious fudamentalists, which will be the real threat to American interests, far more threatening than Saddam ever was.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
flyorski
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 4:08 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
It seems like lately, society's respect for unwritten rules is diminishing

No, it's that Carter sees where the U.S. is, and the fact that in the current form, they are so bogged down in Iraq they are loosing the position of number one world power. Carter is saying it how it is, and even in the article he was getting flamed, with the republican media only looking at a limited view of things he felt he should let people know where he sees this country as being.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 4:12 pm

Nobody cares what former President Carter says because he did the following stupid things:

1) Prematurely cancelled the B-1 bomber project, essentially delaying its entry into service until 1986 (after President Reagan revived the project).

2) Couldn't control inflation (remember the days of 17% inflation and just as high prime interest lending rates?).

3) Caused, the Iranian Revolution, whose bad effects are still with us today.

4) Boycotted the 1980 Summer Olympics, which left way too many bitter feelings all around.
 
andessmf
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 4:34 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 68):
a statement that few politicans are willing to make today.

You must not be reading the news lately, or at least since Bush was elected. Because what Carter said has been said by many politicians before, including him.

Quoting Flyorski (Reply 69):
it's that Carter sees where the U.S. is, and the fact that in the current form, they are so bogged down in Iraq they are loosing the position of number one world power.

Yes, of course, we haven't heard that one before.  sarcastic 

I recall quite clearly how Japan was ready to overtake us, ditto for Europe a few years later. So forgive me if what you say I take with a grain of salt.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 68):
He is going to be regarded as a failure, one who has no understanding of global affairs, doesnt give a rats ass about people's opinion at home, and simply thinks "we should stay the course", if there was signs of progress made, sure but absolutely nothing has been done except maybe the eradication of one regime which in turn will lead to another regime led by religious fudamentalists

You notice how that phrase applies to Carter as well? Even the eradication of one regime (Shah of Iran) that "will lead to another regime led by religious fudamentalists" (mullahs). Sound familiar?

And yet Carter provides a clear example of why we cannot judge Bush now, since a lot of people here seem to show some appreciation for a president, that at least during his time, was considered an abject failure.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 5:12 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
who stole alaska lands to create parks for his ego

THIS was one of his major accomplishments, "stealing" is wrong as he did NOT take it into his possession but tried to preserve nature and environment. He also arranged the new arrangement of the Panama Canal, but most of all he achieved "Camp David I " .
-
His criticizm about Messrs Blair and Bush may be harsh, but sounds to be quite and really to the point !  yes   yes 
-

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
to be extremely disliked by the citizenry, and to have approval rating below 30%.

-
strange is that his approval rating in the USA was so low, while it in the world was as high as in any way possible
-

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 12):
the success of this administration.

-
"this administration" succeeded in terminating Taliban rule in Afghanistan. But what else .... what else ?
-
to use the famous question of Ronald Reagan in the debate against Jimmy Carter : "are people in the USA now better off than in autumn 2000 ? "
-

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 28):
admiration for him.

why not having admiration for one of the best presidents the USA has ever had ? And his approval-rating in the world was most excellent. -- There is the famous word of JFK who after the Bay-of-the-Pigs disaster, when hearing that his approval-rating was skyrocketing, told his brother Robert "the worse you are as president, the more popular you become !"
-

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 70):
Caused, the Iranian Revolution, whose bad effects are still with us today.

-
NO, he did NOT cause the Iranian Revolution. If any single person did cause it, it may be Emperor Reza Shah Pahlavi. While the reality rather is that the Iranian Revolution resulted from a variety of different factors. But the rule of the Pahlavi dynasty, and not least the Anglo-American action against Prime Minister Mossadegh (President Dwight D. Eisenhower + Messrs Dulles) were two most important factors.
-

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 71):
Because what Carter said has been said by many politicians before, including him.

-
Repeating the truth is never wrong
-

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 71):
considered an abject failure.

considered so by whom ? by the right-wing in the USA, usually between 45 and 55% of the population, depending on season. But considered a good US president by most people in the world.
-
There in the past have been US presidents who were strong abroad like JFK or strong at home like LBJ. In case of J.Carter it is obvious that he was an "abroad-president", possibly like Bill Clinton. Reagan was highly popular at home but universally DISliked around the globe. Bush Senior was much liked internationally, but apparently far less so at home.
-
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 5:54 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 72):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 71):considered an abject failure.

considered so by whom ? by the right-wing in the USA, usually between 45 and 55% of the population, depending on season. But considered a good US president by most people in the world.

The expectations for Carter's administration were very high, coming off the Watergate years, and a non-elected president we'd not totally forgiven for handing Nixon a pardon, and who'd been the butt of too many jokes. The impact of Carter's missteps were compounded by those very expectations, which he could never live up to. It's still a bit disturbing to recall the split-screen on the TV of the hostages in Iran boarding an aircraft on one side, with Reagan being sworn in on the other.

I cast the first vote of my life for Carter, and didn't vote again for a couple of decades, due to that vote having gone so sour.

No matter whether his message is right or wrong, Carter has yet to reconcile with the American people, and that should be his first priority before commenting on successive administrations.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 8:23 pm

Quoting A332 (Reply 64):
It is apparently NOT okay to be critical of a sitting president, forget about that whole 'freedom of speech' thing.

That's the point at all - and anyone with a modicum of sense can tell from reading this thread that some of us don't begrudge Pres. Carter's Free Speech rights, rather the vehemen criticism of a Sitting President by a former President. As has been pointed out - numerous times in this thread - that simply isn't done. Reagan didn't do it, Bush 1 didn't do it, Clinton didn't do it. Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ike didn't do it.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 66):
Thank you! Pity this needs to be pointed out by our neighbor to the north, where free speech is simply a "given", not just a bunch of bullshit lip service the neoCon republiKKKans would like to see it become. God forbid we exercise our rights to free speech in the USA these days. You might be labeled disloyal, unpatriotic, not showing respect to the office, etc... What's next? Unwarranted and illegal wire taps? Oh wait, we have that already - it's called the Gonzales Justice Department. Silly me!

Well, the mudslinging and name calling certainly isn't lost on you is it. What a shame everyone else managed to maintain decorum and have a decent conversation . . . . republikkkans indeed. Pathetic display.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 70):
3) Caused, the Iranian Revolution, whose bad effects are still with us today.

No entirely true.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 73):
No matter whether his message is right or wrong, Carter has yet to reconcile with the American people, and that should be his first priority before commenting on successive administrations.

 checkmark  Well said.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 10:06 pm

After doing a tiny bit of googling, it appears that Carter's remarks aren't exactly precedent-setting. At the first link I clicked on I found:

Quoting http://www.nps.gov/archive/eise/5accomp4X.htm:

Eisenhower considered John Kennedy too young and inexperienced to be a serious presidential candidate (He referred to Kennedy as "the boy" and "young whippersnapper.") and resented the money and all the political manipulation that made him one. During the campaign he was incensed with Kennedy's claim that his administration was responsible for a missile gap that Eisenhower knew "damn well" didn't exist. When Kennedy won the 1960 election, Eisenhower considered it his own greatest defeat.

As press reporters' adulation of the new president-elect grew, so did Eisenhower's dislike. "We have a new genius in our midst who is incapable of making any mistakes and therefore deserving of no criticism whatsoever," he once remarked with undisguised sarcasm. He abhorred Kennedy's big spending as president and his passive response to the building of the Berlin Wall. He called the new president's challenge to race the Russians to the moon a "stunt," and was particularly perturbed with the accusation of Kennedy's staff that his administration was responsible for the Bay of Pigs fiasco.

You can always tell a Harvard man, but you can't tell him much.

There are many other examples, and not just from Eisenhower.
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baroque
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting Queso (Reply 3):
Just the rantings of a senile old man, what do you expect?

Well Jimmy is old, but calling him senile rather goes against most of the evidence. He looks still to be a more efficient administrator than the person he is criticizing. In any case, unless Queso has medical qualifications that he does not mention in his use profile AND has conducted suitable tests, this seems to be opinion and probably wrong opinion at that. So it is odd that ANC skips reply 3 and fastens on Klaus in reply 13 as OPINION.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 12):
Widly inappropriate to say the least. But then again, it is Carter.

And the conduct of Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Perle/Wolfowitz/Gonzales is just fine without giving you the slightest reason for criticism?

It will be interesting to see how much support the AG gets from Congress Reps - not much by now I suspect. There were enough problems about Gonzales interpretations of the law without him harassing a sick man in hospital.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 75):

There are many other examples, and not just from Eisenhower.

Thanks, AW, it did occur to me that this was NOT the first, and you probably Google better than I.

In Aus, our current PMs previous boss (ex PM Malcolm Fraser) has been fairly lethal about some aspects of the currents one's policies, especially the Pacific solution for refugees. IIRC Billy Hughes had plenty to say but nothing good about others and in the UK I can hardly think Lloyd George kept his mouth shut. I do remember Churchill grumbling about Atlee during the Atlee reign, but you could argue that Churchill was still active whereas after two terms US Potii are supposed to be inactive.

Maybe the lesson from all this is that ex Presidents should NOT be silent.

Just a thought. Something needs to be done as a famous cartoonist drew in Punch about the UK in about 1949. He had a squad marching towards a cliff with the hats spelling out "national survival". The Sgt Major shouted at the incompetent officer, "Say something, even if it is only goodbye".
 
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PA110
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 74):
What a shame everyone else managed to maintain decorum and have a decent conversation . . . . republikkkans indeed. Pathetic display.

I make no apologies for the manner in which I have expressed my views. As a former republican, I abandoned the party during the Reagan era when Jerry Falwell and his evangelicals hijacked my party of fiscal conservatives and no social agenda. It only got worse under dubbya when Wolfowitz, Dumsfeld and their goose-stepping NeoCons jumped on board - hence the republikkkan remarks. Carter's administration was young and completely inexperienced. They made horrible mistakes, and presided over a continued slide in the economy, and a national embarrassment with the Islamic Revolution taking hostages at the US Embassy in Tehran. I lived in Iran for 3 years, and left only 18 months before that all happened. As far as decorum.... get over it. Playing Miss Manners doesn't really suit you.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 11:44 pm

Quoting PA110 (Reply 77):

And you have no credibility either - because you cannot discuss it without name calling and label-tossing.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 77):
As far as decorum.... get over it. Playing Miss Manners doesn't really suit you.

News Flash . . .

I'm one of the least Politically Correct person here - I just happen to know when and how to converse like I've got some.
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baroque
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Sun May 20, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 78):

I'm one of the least Politically Correct person here - I just happen to know when and how to converse like I've got some.

Source? Could this be confused with opinion?  Smile  Smile
 
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PA110
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 78):
because you cannot discuss it without name calling and label-tossing.

Whatever This is not about your sensibilities. It is about Carter criticizing a sitting President. I see nothing wrong with it whatsoever. I think it takes a bad President to know a bad President. There is nothing holy or sacred about the office. Carter has enough perspective to be able to make a valid judgment. Dubbya has come so far off the rails that a former President feels compelled to say something publicly.

[Edited 2007-05-20 17:04:40]
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TedTAce
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 12:14 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 74):
the vehemen criticism of a Sitting President by a former President. As has been pointed out - numerous times in this thread - that simply isn't done. Reagan didn't do it, Bush 1 didn't do it, Clinton didn't do it. Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ike didn't do it.

Maybe the fact that one of the heretofore classiset ex-residents broke this precident says something about just how grossly negligent W has been with the office?
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Boeing7E7
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 1):
Carter is just a bitter old man, who stole alaska lands to create parks for his ego. He only has relenvecy as a carpenter and for pretending to police free elections.

He's just pissed because Bill Clinton would rather be seen with Bush Senior than him. You're right. He's a bitter old man.
 
OttoPylit
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting Braybuddy (Reply 6):
I remember at the end of Carter's presidency he said that no American soldiers' lives had been lost under his presidency, and he was proud of that.

Ah yes. Well, according to someone who had been there, Delta Force Operative Eric L. Haney, there was a rescue attempt of the Iranian hostages by Carter because of "lagging public opinion of the President." Carter allowed Delta Force to draw up their plan for Operation Eagle Claw and then reviewed it. Because the plan would call for some Iranians to be killed in the process, he revised the plan to be operated HIS was, so that no one died, and especially no Americans. As nice as this would be, its a rescue operation of hostages, so that idea can't be guaranteed. Although Delta Force strongly voiced their opinion, Carter made the rescue attempt continue. In addition to a plan that would ensure the death of American soldiers, he also allowed almost all sections of the military to work together. The Air Force would fly the C-130 cargo planes out of the desert, the Navy would transport the H-53 Sea Stallion helos, the Marines would fly them into the desert, and Delta Force would make the rescue. The Marines weren't trained in the night flying that was needed of them and too many helos broke down or had to return to the ship. Of the ones that did make it, because their night flying wasn't as proficient as those of the Army or Air Force Special Ops, one of the H-53s drifted into the tail of a C-130 while refueling and crashed into it, causing a mass explosion and death to several American soldiers. On top of it all, the rescue attempt had to be abandoned.

No American soldiers died on his watch? I'm sure the families of:
Sgt. John D. Harvey, 21, Roanoke; Cpl. George N. Holmes Jr., 22, of Pine Bluff, Ark.; Staff Sgt. Dewey L. Johnson, 31, of Dublin, Ga; and Airmen: Capt. Charles T. McMillan II, 28, of Corryton, Tenn.; Capt. Lyn D. McIntosh, 33, of Voldosta, Ga.; Maj Richard L. Bakke, 33, of Long Beach, Calif.' Sgt. Mayo, of Harrisville, Mich.; and Maj. Harold L. Lewis Jr., 35, of Fort Walton Beach, Fla, would be able to argue that point quite well.



OttoPylit
I don't have a microwave, but I do have a clock that occasionally cooks shit.
 
A332
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 74):
That's the point at all - and anyone with a modicum of sense can tell from reading this thread that some of us don't begrudge Pres. Carter's Free Speech rights, rather the vehemen criticism of a Sitting President by a former President. As has been pointed out - numerous times in this thread - that simply isn't done. Reagan didn't do it, Bush 1 didn't do it, Clinton didn't do it. Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ike didn't do it.

Carter has the right to state his opinion on whatever subject he wishes... just as you have the right to state yours. You definitely seem to fit the mold of a person who values freedom of speech... so it seems a little silly to want to censor what is said when it falls outside your particular view.

GWB is not and should not be immune to criticism... regardless of who is pointing the finger.
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LAXspotter
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 2:42 am

Quoting A332 (Reply 84):
Carter has the right to state his opinion on whatever subject he wishes... just as you have the right to state yours. You definitely seem to fit the mold of a person who values freedom of speech... so it seems a little silly to want to censor what is said when it falls outside your particular view.

GWB is not and should not be immune to criticism... regardless of who is pointing the finger.

 checkmark 

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 71):
You notice how that phrase applies to Carter as well?

Yes, i have to give you that, but dont you think youre being a little too hopeful for George W?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
BN747
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 3:31 am

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 57):
Carter gets high marks on honesty and he didn't run with the Washington crowd,and paid for it.His achievements in the Middle East peace process was miraculous,but you knew it wasn't going to hold.

A brilliant and accurate summation...

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 57):
But Carter is one of the most weakest presidents ever.His record seems to reflect that and deserves a just as low of a ranking as Bush.

And then you negate it and contradict it in a single stroke -- contradiction? "...he didn't run with the Washington crowd" and because of that, the press, the Repubs and his own Dems left you and a many board members with that "Carter is one of the most weakest presidents ever" mentality.

The way the press went after Carter over 'lust in my heart', 'the killer rabbit', etc..imagine that same press holding Dubya to the equal standard..Dubya would have been driven outta office BEFORE 9/11- the press shapes minds no doubt about it! American populace has been dangerously ill-informed ever since, if there was ever a game of 'gotcha'..this was it! The press got Carter (for flipping them off) and a huge section of the American people (paper mind meld) in single shot..and have held them in that cookie jar ever since, yet finally..it was the internet that has brought about a valet challenge to 'we say it ain't so..' to the 'know-it-all' Press.

Imagine for a moment, if during the Iran Crisis, Carter pulled a Dubya...and just RAIDED Tehran, seized and occupied the country ..'ala Iraq style'! Now only certain individuals here knew the global political stage of the day...the SOLE allies of the US would have Augusto Pinochet and Ferdinand Marcos, both relegated to cheerleader roles only. All of Europe would have been at the doorstep of 1600 Pennsylvania Ave... ready to torch it if we did not leave immediately (and the US press leading the charge calling him a mad man)! Yep the world has changed, we now go after countries who didn't do anything to us--and it's perfectly okay...you can even form a coalition willing to go along -- and the press will 'sign off' on it and cheer you all the way.

Carter didn't receive offers (nor accept) a multi-million dollar home in Beverly Hills from cronies (as did Reagan), nor sell his Memoirs before exiting office for millions (Bush I).. not a single person here can say Carter was ever in it 'for the money' (collecting on his endeavors after-the-fact like Clinton). He didn't enter it for the money and he didn't try to score big later on in life..from the very start, he was a simple, "I'm in it for the love of duty and country - 100%". For welcoming the challenge to lead a nation from torn-apart by the Vietnam War abroad, divided by Social Upheavel and 1st class Political Scandal at home, the press billed him as nearly the 2nd Coming of Christ (a standard no one could measure up to)....and when he told them to F-off (along with his corrupt money grabbing bros' in DNC)..they turned on him like a pack of wolves and made him pay dearly - forever with the "weakest presidents ever" moniker! An Annapolis Graduate and Nuclear Physicist who stepped up and stepped in when the greatest nation on earth was unraveling at the seams, truly needed a healer-- is it possible that he has now chosen to turn up the volume (criticizing Bush) because he feels a deep sense of hurt to the nation's veneer? I think if anyone has earned it...he has. After all he could have easily just gotten into office, beriched himself and went along (played with the press) bide his time quietly 'hand-in-hand' with the political status quo .. but he didn't--


Why wait 2 more years to see if Dubya screwed up... the last 6 years isn't proof enough? SIX years of being ROYALLY BS'd is certainly convincing enough to me to portend what the next two will bring.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
AirSpare
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 72):
He also arranged the new arrangement of the Panama Canal

That's a really nice way of saying that he gave it away.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 72):
Bush Senior was much liked internationally, but apparently far less so at home.

Americans are better at reading lips then the rest of the world.

I saw a good bumper sticker in Texas "We're Making Enemies Faster Then We can Kill them". I think that sums up the current administration's policy rather well.

I was training some Iraqi Telecoms guys in Dubai. They asked me, "Why did America wreck the country? You took out Pinapple Face and left the country intact, the first thing you should have done was secure the borders. Now you have created chaos". Not ever having been to Iraq, but listening to a united group Christian and Muslim telecom engineers who have lived through Hussein, GWI and II, was interesting.

In Israel, I received a dose of reality when one local engineer said "Just becasue something is true, it doesn't mean you should say it". It was a low blow, I was in the Air force during the Carter/Reagan years, Carter was pretty weak.

Does anyone remember 9 months after he said "I trust the Russinas", they invaded Afganistan.
Get someone else for your hero worship fetish
 
halls120
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 6:03 am

Quoting BN747 (Reply 86):
An Annapolis Graduate and Nuclear Physicist who stepped up and stepped in when the greatest nation on earth was unraveling at the seams, truly needed a healer-- is it possible that he has now chosen to turn up the volume (criticizing Bush) because he feels a deep sense of hurt to the nation's veneer?

 rotfl  Carter as President a healer? He was a terrible president whose performance was so bad that he faced a primary challenge from within his own party in 1980.

The only thing he's trying to do now is "heal" his own reputation by painting Bush as a the worst ever president. He may turn out to be the worst, but that won't make Carter's pathetically incompetent presidency look any better.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
BN747
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 88):

rotfl Carter as President a healer? He was a terrible president whose performance was so bad that he faced a primary challenge from within his own party in 1980.

I had no idea those 'Press Cookies' had addictive properties... wink 


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 6:10 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 88):

Why do waste electrons replying to BN747? Just a rhetorical question.

. . . . .

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 81):
Maybe the fact that one of the heretofore classiset ex-residents broke this precident says something about just how grossly negligent W has been with the office?

Ted, all the more reason the "heretofore classiest ex-[P]resident" should maintain that decorum. His Presidency was a 5 star Clusfterf . . . . his post-Presidency was/is (until now) exeptional. By LOWERING himself to the standard of the balance of the Democratic Uber-Lefties, his credibility wanes a tad. Unfortunate . . . .

I certainly didn't respect the MAN as President. I certainly respected his Post-Presidency Statesmanship - until now.

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 87):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 72):
He also arranged the new arrangement of the Panama Canal

That's a really nice way of saying that he gave it away.

Yup . . . .

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 87):
Does anyone remember 9 months after he said "I trust the Russinas", they invaded Afganistan.

Yes.

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 87):
I was in the Air force during the Carter/Reagan years, Carter was pretty weak.

And I was in the Army. The difference between the two is like Night and Day . . . .
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
andessmf
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 85):
but dont you think youre being a little too hopeful for George W?

No, I simply read history too much to realize that my opinion has no bearing to what history may say 20 years from now. After all, Carter being a prime example, you can a president with a terrible record be fondly remembered 20 years after. All you have to do is read this thread to notice this.

It takes a lot of gall of people to say that what they believe now is what will be remembered in the future. I have my very strong opinions, but I know they are that and that my opinions will be reassessed in the future by others.
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting AirSpare (Reply 87):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 72):He also arranged the new arrangement of the Panama Canal

That's a really nice way of saying that he gave it away.

Carter completed the negotiations begun by Ford.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 88):
He was a terrible president whose performance was so bad that he faced a primary challenge from within his own party in 1980.

By none other than Jerry Brown and Teddy Kennedy.  Wink (Wouldn't that have been fun!) Remember that in the '76 election, Ford faced an equally bruising primary challenge by Reagan, and neither candidate had a clear majority of delegates at the opening of the Republican convention.
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fumanchewd
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 30):
As a foreigner I think I can say his predecessor build up a lot of good will during his 8 yrs.

I agree. On this forum, however, foreigners seem to think that they are experts in all US policies-domestic or foreign.

Myself, I have always had utmost respect and belief in procedural democracy. That means that the people will usually right the wrong and the political pendulum is always swinging. I do believe that resorting to insults of a democratically elected president is disgusting. Baseless and disrespectful name calling of the president is a disgrace to the office and it offends me. I do believe that respectful criticism is the responsibility of every citizen however. Not the Jerry Springer like criticisms that you see some partake in.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
It takes more a man to know when to shut up and stay out of the spotlight, than to go attention whoring.

It seems like lately, society's respect for unwritten rules is diminishing. And President Carter aptly highlights this.

BS. The integrity of our government is diminished when people with power idley go with the status quo and not what they think is right. It takes a man to stand up for what he believes in and damn unwritten rules.

Blindly following the fraternity and unwritten rules are what leads to lynch mobs and blind nationalism.

I respect Carter's right to criticize, but as a former president he should have done it more diplomatically and not insulted the office of the Presidency as a whole. Instead of discussing what should be done and using constructive criticism, he just called the current administration a bunch of names. In this regard he did lower himself.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
halls120
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 6:45 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 92):
By none other than Jerry Brown and Teddy Kennedy. Ê (Wouldn't that have been fun!) Remember that in the '76 election, Ford faced an equally bruising primary challenge by Reagan, and neither candidate had a clear majority of delegates at the opening of the Republican convention.

 redflag  Ford was an appointed president who was an appointed vice president. In essence, it was an open primary in 1976. You can't seriously compare Ford in 1976 to Carter in 1980.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
Joined: Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:37 am

RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 6:52 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 94):
 redflag  

Nope, wrong use of the red flag. In Ford's short tenure, Saigon fell, he pardoned Nixon, signed the Helsinki Accords, and accelerated the Panama Canal treaty negotiations. All negatives for him, even though there probably wasn't much he could have done about Saigon, beyond offering South Vietnam more assistance.
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halls120
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 7:13 am

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 95):

Nope, wrong use of the red flag.

in your opinion.

Quoting AeroWesty (Reply 95):
In Ford's short tenure, Saigon fell, he pardoned Nixon, signed the Helsinki Accords, and accelerated the Panama Canal treaty negotiations. All negatives for him, even though there probably wasn't much he could have done about Saigon, beyond offering South Vietnam more assistance.

Ford was an appointed president. Carter was an elected president. BIG difference.

You can't seriously suggest that a primary challenge to his candidacy is the same as a primary challenge to an elected sitting president.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AeroWesty
Posts: 19551
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 7:17 am

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 96):
You can't seriously suggest that a primary challenge to his candidacy is the same as a primary challenge to an elected sitting president.

Sure I can. Ford had a record that could be reviewed. What he did pissed off his contemporaries, and many on the opposite side of the aisle. Exactly the same scenario going into the 1980 election for Carter.
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ANCFlyer
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 7:26 am

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 93):
On this forum, however, foreigners seem to think that they are experts in all US policies-domestic or foreign.

It nver ceases to amaze me how many folks that live outside our borders are experts on WHAT we should do, WHEN we should do it, WITH whom we should do it, and HOW!

Baffles the mind doesn't it.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 93):
I do believe that resorting to insults of a democratically elected president is disgusting. Baseless and disrespectful name calling of the president is a disgrace to the office and it offends me.

Particularly coming from another democratically elected President of this country.

Spot on Fuman . . . spot on . . . dead on balls accurate position.
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AeroWesty
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RE: Carter Drops The Bomb On Bush

Mon May 21, 2007 7:43 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 98):
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 93): I do believe that resorting to insults of a democratically elected president is disgusting. Baseless and disrespectful name calling of the president is a disgrace to the office and it offends me.

Particularly coming from another democratically elected President of this country.

I believe when it happens it's shocking because of its rarity, but it's not unknown. Ford had very uncomplimentary things to say about both Bush and Cheney, but chose to have his remarks embargoed until after his death:

Quoting http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/1228-02.htm:

Ford was quoted as saying he understood the theory of "wanting to free people." But the former president said he was skeptical "whether you can detach that from the obligation number one, of what's in our national interest."

He added, "And I just don't think we should go hellfire damnation around the globe freeing people, unless it is directly related to our own national security."

Woodward said Ford fondly recalled his close working relationship with Cheney and Rumsfeld, while expressing concern about the policies they pursued in more recent years.

"He (Cheney) was an excellent chief of staff. First class," Ford said. "But I think Cheney has become much more pugnacious" as vice president.
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