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mdsh00
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Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:03 am

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/20/bush.stem.cell.ap/index.html

This really annoys me.  Yeah sure

Way to limit science and send scientists overseas to research the next biggest thing. Is it going to be any surprise that the next biggest Stem Cell breaktrough will probably NOT be happening in this country?

The most f**k'ed up priorites I have ever seen.  Yeah sure
 
Queso
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
Way to limit science and send scientists overseas to research the next biggest thing.

Don't sweat it, OK? There are lots of ways around the limitations and many of the benefits of it are overrated anyway. I don't agree with the decision either, but keep things in the proper perspective and don't let the media jerk your chain by blowing it out of proportion.
 
Mir
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
Is it going to be any surprise that the next biggest Stem Cell breaktrough will probably NOT be happening in this country?

Not really. This sort of high-tech, high-education, well-paying job is one that you would think the government would be chomping at the bit to promote. But apparently not.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
mdsh00
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 1):
Don't sweat it, OK? There are lots of ways around the limitations and many of the benefits of it are overrated anyway. I don't agree with the decision either, but keep things in the proper perspective and don't let the media jerk your chain by blowing it out of proportion.

It's not the media. As a member of the health care profession, I really would like to see more reseach being done in it. Of course the benefits don't seem like much now but with research they may or may not be with time. The fact that for a misguided religious view, he is stifling progress in this field, and even going against national opinion just to pander to the religious right.
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:51 am

Quoting Queso (Reply 1):
Don't sweat it, OK?

I'll remember that in the next gun control thread.  duck 
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
NWADC9
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 3):
The fact that for a misguided religious view, he is stifling progress in this field, and even going against national opinion just to pander to the religious right.

Unless it involves embryonic stem cells and murdering babies before they're even born, I don't see a darn thing wrong about stem cell research, and I'm a Christian. You can easily get stem cells out of umbilical cords and adults without killing anyone, be it someone who looks like a little tadpole or otherwise. I think you're just a Dummkopf who hates Republicans to the point you're too thick to back your smack.
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mdsh00
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:13 am

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 5):
Unless it involves embryonic stem cells and murdering babies before they're even born,

"Murder" Ok...

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 5):
You can easily get stem cells out of umbilical cords and adults without killing anyone

Take a higher level course in Embryology and then come back and talk to me. Umbilical stem cells have shown some promise and should also be researched, but embryonic stem cells have totipotency and ability to differentiate into different cell types.

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 5):
I think you're just a Dummkopf who hates Republicans to the point you're too thick to back your smack.

Tell me where politics and Republican's come in to this? If you know me (which you obviously don't), I don't align myself to a political party because I think the idea is stupid. I speak from point of view of knowing the science behind stem cells and seeing misguided religious views dampening scientific progress. Let me tell you that throwing around childish insults isn't a great way to have a discussion.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:28 am

What I find amusing about this whole argument is that while the embryonic stem cell researchers have essentially produced nearly squadoosh (if you watch ESPN's Pardon the Interruption you know what I mean  Wink ), adult stem cell researchers developed over 80 different medical treatments for a number of serious medical conditions.
 
CastleIsland
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:39 am

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 5):
I think you're just a Dummkopf who hates Republicans to the point you're too thick to back your smack.

Mdsh00 is a medical student who has made some very intelligent posts in the past, and it strikes me that you have no scientific training that could even compare to his. If anything, your faith is blinding your understanding of science.

[Edited 2007-06-20 21:48:34]
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:50 am

Maybe the Benefits of medical cure should be permitted.
regds
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AirCop
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:06 am

Did anyone expect anymore from this President? Without research there is no progress, and this statement goes beyond just stem cells.

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 5):
Unless it involves embryonic stem cells and murdering babies before they're even born,

Sounds like some right wing propaganda to me. Maybe someone should do some research.
 
sw733
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:58 am

This upsets me for sure...my grandmother died from Alzheimers, my dad is suffering and will likely die in a few years from it, and I live with the mindset, rational or not, that I will get it and die within about 25 years...so for someone to take away a possible route to a possible cure for not only my father, who I love deeply, but myself...it hurts me deep inside. It makes me cry...when I heard this, that's what I did, was cry. I know he runs on a family values platform, but my family is being broken apart by a disease that maybe, just MAYBE, could be cured by stem cells...god it hurts so bad. My eyes are tearing up once again just thinking about it all, about my father, about my grandmother...sorry.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:51 am

I especially liked this Bush quote from the article: "I made it clear to Congress and to the American people that I will not allow our nation to cross this moral line."  rotfl 
Bush talking about morals. Ain't that a hoot?
 
cfalk
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:17 pm

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 5):
Unless it involves embryonic stem cells and murdering babies before they're even born, I don't see a darn thing wrong about stem cell research, and I'm a Christian.

That's what this bill stopped the government from funding. There is no ban on embryonic stem cell research. If Merck or whoever want to conduct research, knock yourselves out. It's just that the government itself is not going to fund a practice that about half the population deem morally reprehensible.

Quoting Mdsh00 (Reply 6):
Take a higher level course in Embryology and then come back and talk to me. Umbilical stem cells have shown some promise and should also be researched, but embryonic stem cells have totipotency and ability to differentiate into different cell types.

While adult stem cells have been developed into dozens of successful treatments, so far there is not a single promising research track on embryonic stem cells, in spite of years of research.

Do you really know what this bill is about? It's not about medical advances. It's about jobs. There are hundreds, even thousands of researchers who have been working on Embryonic stem cells for years, and unlike their collegues working on adult stem cells, they've come up with nothing, nada, zilch. The universities, medical research foundations and pharmaceutical companies have had enough, and no longer want to continue sending their money down a black hole with no return. So, threatened with unemployment, they go to a source of money well known not to be too strict on oversight or demands for results - the government. And they even come up with a good sob story about "potential", deliberately muddying the waters between adult stem cells, which have had a huge success, and embryonic stem cells, which so far has been a waste of money, in spite of many years of study.

If there really was potential in embryonic stem cells, private industry, venture capital, and other private money (whose job it is to seek out new opportunities for successful research and cures) would be breaking the door down to fund it. They are not, and that should tell you something.
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Falcon84
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:25 pm

Ah, yes, government decisions based on personal religious beliefs.

Gotta love it.  Yeah sure
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cfalk
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:27 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Ah, yes, government decisions based on personal religious beliefs.

And don't forget common sense, Falcon. Would you put your money into something that after years of research has produced absolutely nothing?
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
QantasA332
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:42 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
And don't forget common sense, Falcon. Would you put your money into something that after years of research has produced absolutely nothing?

Pouring money into a cause for years on end, with no end product. Hmm, that reminds me of something...

The hypocrisy of an argument like that is ridiculous.

[Edited 2007-06-21 06:07:02]
 
AirCop
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:01 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
It's just that the government itself is not going to fund a practice that about half the population deem morally reprehensible.

Didn't the latest figures I saw in the paper and on CNN is that over 70% of the American population supports stem cell research. I thinking that is way more than half the population.  eyebrow 
 
Charles79
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:09 pm

My background is in chemistry, so I'm not too familiar with the research itself or its merits. I add my voice to those here that protest against a leader that makes decisions based on his moral views and not on science or research. If my Commander in Chief can't put his personal views aside when making decisions that affect the scientific community, how can I trust him when he sends my fellow coworkers to war? Personal, religious views have no place in government. Fact based, un-biased decisions backed up by research and data do.

My recommendation to those attempting to do research: go elsewhere (Canada/Asia/Europe).

My two cents.
 
itsjustme
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:25 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
It's just that the government itself is not going to fund a practice that about half the population deem morally reprehensible.

Yeah, and we all know how closely this administration listens to the opinion of the population, don't we? Wanna try again?
 
mdsh00
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:38 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
It's not about medical advances. It's about jobs. There are hundreds, even thousands of researchers who have been working on Embryonic stem cells for years, and unlike their collegues working on adult stem cells, they've come up with nothing, nada, zilch.

Yes, it is tough. Embryonic stem cells are "bitchy," and scientists still are working on figuring out which hormones and factors and what comes in at what time. Embryology is a lot more of an intricate process than people realize. But how will we not get to that level if we don't keep trying. And the thing about private funding; that's fine but the amount of money in privately funded research doesn't closely match the amount that is available through the government from NIH grants and other funds.

And as for jobs, I'm sorry I don't buy that. Considering how much the government spends every year, imagine the amount of waste, pork barrel projects, etc that should be cut out. Bush doesn't give a damn about saving money, it's all about his moral interpretations going against that of the people; and I thought the last time I checked, it wasn't a 50/50 split.
 
Mir
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:48 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
It's just that the government itself is not going to fund a practice that about half the population deem morally reprehensible.

 redflag  If this is about what the people think, then Bush is a huge hypocrite, as he couldn't care less what the people think about Iraq. It's about what he believes is moral, rather than what the people want, or what is good for the country.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
itsjustme
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:10 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 13):
It's just that the government itself is not going to fund a practice that about half the population deem morally reprehensible.

Turns out, according to this article "Polls show the stem-cell bill is backed by more than 60 percent of American voters". So, once again, the president has turned a deaf ear to the will of the American people. But hey, that's nothing new.
 
cfalk
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 17):
Didn't the latest figures I saw in the paper and on CNN is that over 70% of the American population supports stem cell research. I thinking that is way more than half the population.



Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 22):
Turns out, according to this article "Polls show the stem-cell bill is backed by more than 60 percent of American voters". So, once again, the president has turned a deaf ear to the will of the American people. But hey, that's nothing new.

Hey guys, let me tell you a little secret. There is a difference between adult stem cells, embryonic stem cells, and simply "stem cells". Hell, everyone but the Christian Scientist cult are for stem cell research. That is not the question. What about embryonic stem cells?

Why is it that nobody wants to address the fact that NO treatments have been developed with embryonic stem cells, and none are in the pipeline, nor even in the funnel. (for those of you in sales, you know what I mean). It's like I ask you for money so that I could rub my cat's belly all day and maybe come up with a cure for something. Based on all the evidence to date, that has the same probability of success as embryonic stem cells.
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flyingbabydoc
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:25 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 22):
So, once again, the president has turned a deaf ear to the will of the American people. But hey, that's nothing new.

Imagine what would happen if Roosevelt or Churchill had prohibited further research on the development of Penicillin...

Quoting Mdsh00 (Thread starter):
Is it going to be any surprise that the next biggest Stem Cell breaktrough will probably NOT be happening in this country?

Lots of interesting research coming out of Bonn here in Germany, plus the UK and France. You might be right.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 7):
embryonic stem cell researchers have essentially produced nearly squadoosh



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
years of research has produced absolutely nothing?

I beg to differ. Many people expect miraculous achievements, such as a "cure for cancer" and so on. Sometimes, the ultimate goal of a research may not be to "achieve" a particular outcome, but improve research for itself, as means of producing results with other methods and materials. Without embryonic stem cell knowledge, much of the adult stem cell would be void (particularly in terms of the growth factors). Needless to say, embryonic stem cell research is a cornerstone for cloning research, which has been advancing quite well (Sheep - dogs - monkeys and so on). Pretty soon a human being will be able to (technically) be cloned.
And for those of you who believe embryonic stem cell research has brought about nothing: There are 5501 publications on the subject on Medline as of today. Some of the latest:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...ubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 23):
Why is it that nobody wants to address the fact that NO treatments have been developed with embryonic stem cells, and none are in the pipeline, nor even in the funnel. (for those of you in sales, you know what I mean).

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I would recommend people to do their homework before they claim that this research has led to nothing yet. These works are fantastic and milestones which made our understanding of development grow exponentially. Cures and treatments are some of the goals, but by no means the most important ones (for those of you in Science, you know what I mean).


Alex
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cfalk
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:52 pm

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 24):
Cures and treatments are some of the goals, but by no means the most important ones (for those of you in Science, you know what I mean).

Research for research's sake is one thing. Let the universities and medical foundations fund that if they want. But we are talking about government funding for these programs, and if my tax dollars are going to research, I expect that it is for the purpose of finding cures and treatments. If you haven't noticed, we are still running a deficit, and pet projects with no clear goal must go into the "nice to have, but don't need it" category.

And when you add the fact that you are taking money from people who hate the idea of embryonic stem cells (around 40% of the population) and making them spend it on the thing that they hate without a justifying goal, the decision becomes easy.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
QantasA332
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 9:27 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 25):
And when you add the fact that you are taking money from people who hate the idea of embryonic stem cells (around 40% of the population) and making them spend it on the thing that they hate without a justifying goal, the decision becomes easy.

It works like that, does it? Embryonic stem cell research gets rejected because a minority of taxpayers shouldn't have to pay for something "they hate"? How about the majority who are morally opposed to the continuing war in Iraq? Do they get a tax exemption too?

As I said before, the hypocrisy is disgusting.
 
cfalk
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:30 pm

Quoting QantasA332 (Reply 26):
How about the majority who are morally opposed to the continuing war in Iraq? Do they get a tax exemption too?

The difference is that there is a specific goal in mind. You might not agree with wanting democracy in Iraq, but that is the specific goal.

With embryonic stem cells, there is no specific goal. It's just kinda vague 'maybes'. I'd rather divert the funds for embryonic stem cells and increase funding for adult and umbilical stem cells, which have shown much greater results and the promise for still more.
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:34 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 14):
Ah, yes, government decisions based on personal religious beliefs.

You quickly forget that that government was VOTED in place by a majority of Americans that feel the same way. Stop this governement crap. We elect them so we feel the same way.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:11 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 28):
You quickly forget that that government was VOTED in place by a majority of Americans that feel the same way. Stop this governement crap. We elect them so we feel the same way.

A recent USAToday/Gallop poll suggests otherwise:






Nearly 2 in 3 Americans oppose him vetoing this bill. And 60% of Americans believe regulations ought to be eased from current standards. It appears that Americans are slowly coming around to support stem-cell research. And by your definition, the politicians are in Washington to do our bidding... so why was this bill vetoed?

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
flyingbabydoc
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 27):
With embryonic stem cells, there is no specific goal. It's just kinda vague 'maybes'. I'd rather divert the funds for embryonic stem cells and increase funding for adult and umbilical stem cells, which have shown much greater results and the promise for still more.

First of all, if the "maybes" were "sure" there would be no need for research, right? Secondly, which greater results are you talking about? Because you have achieved a completely expected benefit of transfusing stem cells back into the same person in cases of leukemia and others? There is no need for research on that topic, only the means to achieve the result were lacking in the past.

As I said before, the research with embryonic stem cells HAS provided incredible insight in many previously unknown developmental mechanisms which WILL lead to great discoveries. And the US is fortunate enough to generate such an enormous wealth as a country and be able to fund this necessary research.

On the other hand, how many military projects that end up nowhere are funded with Billions instead of millions? B-70 Valkyrie anyone? Maybe the V-22 Osprey?

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 25):
If you haven't noticed, we are still running a deficit, and pet projects with no clear goal must go into the "nice to have, but don't need it" category

When I was living in the USA (1996-2001) there was actually a surplus. Where did that money go? Who is to blame for the deficit? Certainly not NIH and the stem cell research....  Yeah sure

Alex
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frequentflyer
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:25 am

Political misjudgment mixed with "religious" dogmatism.

Time for brains in the WH.

Am sure the people impaired by maladies who could benefit form such research will appreciate as well.

Reminds me of Reagan and AIDS.
Take off and live
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:40 am

Can anyone explain how embryonic stem cell research is against Bush's religious values?
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
NIKV69
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:56 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 29):
A recent USAToday/Gallop poll suggests otherwise:

Yea where were all those people in 04' when it was time to vote for Kerry? Kind of tells you something doesn't it? The people that particiapte in gallop polls are mostly liberals so you are going to get that result. When it counts the majority argree with Bush. Nice try tho.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):
Yea where were all those people in 04' when it was time to vote for Kerry? Kind of tells you something doesn't it? The people that particiapte in gallop polls are mostly liberals so you are going to get that result. When it counts the majority argree with Bush. Nice try tho.

That's so weak of you.

"Bahhh... them' all be just a bunch' of commie libs participating in that poll." Talk about an intellectually dishonest argument.  Yeah sure

I'd ask you to provide SOME proof that the majority of the people were liberal... but lets face it... when have you ever been known to make an intellectual argument? See, because had you actually done research, you would have found that it wasn't just Gallop who released similar findings.

A Rasmussen poll (an organization respected on both sides, and considered "fair" by the Republicans) found:

Quote:
The survey found that 66% of Americans believe that "embryonic stem cell research" is at least somewhat likely to lead to cures to previously incurable diseases. This figure includes 72% of Democrats, 59% of Republicans, and 69% of those not affiliated with either major political party. Americans under 30 were a bit more optimistic than their elders about the potential of such research.

However, 30% of Americans believe that embryonic stem cell research is morally wrong. That view is held by 46% of Republicans, 18% of Democrats and 28% of unaffiliateds. Overall, 47% of all adults take the opposite view and say it is not morally wrong, 23% were undecided.

So, Nick... you need to use your BRAIN. The reputable companies don't just jump on the phone and call random people. They break it down by calling democrats, and republicans and independents. I'll grant you that some tilt their findings to a particular political agenda. What are ya' gonna do? But when every major poll is showing that nearly 2/3 of America supports stem-cell research... you can't keep burying your head in the sand. And you certainly can't dismiss the findings as, "oh they're just all liberals taking those polls, anyhow."

And like I said earlier.... it's YOUR definition! If politicians in Washington are suppose to be doing the bidding of the American public... then why aren't they supporting stem cell research?? The people want it, so why aren't they complying with their wishes?

Would you like to debate this intelligently, or are we going to remain at a third grade level?

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:35 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 34):

And like I said earlier.... it's YOUR definition! If politicians in Washington are suppose to be doing the bidding of the American public... then why aren't they supporting stem cell research?? The people want it, so why aren't they complying with their wishes?

Would you like to debate this intelligently, or are we going to remain at a third grade level?

 checkmark  checkmark 

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 33):

Yea where were all those people in 04' when it was time to vote for Kerry? Kind of tells you something doesn't it?

 redflag 

Newsflash: the misadventures of John Kerry have nothing to do with the stem cell debate. Nice attempt at dropping a red herring in the barrel though.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
NIKV69
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:07 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 34):
I'd ask you to provide SOME proof that the majority of the people were liberal... but lets face it... when have you ever been known to make an intellectual argument? See, because had you actually done research, you would have found that it wasn't just Gallop who released similar findings.

Oh yea Gallop polls and exit polls. They are so reliable.

If the majority of this country had the ideals that did not agree with GW then he wouldn't be president. Fact is the people that feel the same way as he don't particpate in these liberal polls. For you to sit there and try to make the government out to be something remember that it was YOU and me that put them there.

Quoting Aaron747 (Reply 35):
Newsflash: the misadventures of John Kerry have nothing to do with the stem cell debate. Nice attempt at dropping a red herring in the barrel though

Not at all I jsut got done destroying a lame argument that is trying to say that most of the country doesn't think the same way GW does. If that was the case, Kerry would be in office and this bill would be signed. Your lame attempt at a poll to try to make people think otherwise is laughable.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:14 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 36):

Not at all I jsut got done destroying a lame argument that is trying to say that most of the country doesn't think the same way GW does. If that was the case, Kerry would be in office and this bill would be signed. Your lame attempt at a poll to try to make people think otherwise is laughable.

Your propensity for throwing out fallacy after fallacy is impressive. I'm going out on a really big limb here...they didn't teach critical thinking in golf class, did they? tsk tsk...
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
mdsh00
Topic Author
Posts: 4058
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:16 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 24):

 checkmark 
Another voice of reason.
There are so many complexities of embryonic development that unless research isn't done to find out what does what and at what time, we will never know and be able to apply this information.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 25):
Let the universities and medical foundations fund that if they want. But we are talking about government funding for these programs, and if my tax dollars are going to research, I expect that it is for the purpose of finding cures and treatments. If you haven't noticed, we are still running a deficit, and pet projects with no clear goal must go into the "nice to have, but don't need it" category.

If you were to go back and research how much money is being poured into dead end research, or research that never ends up producing a cure, it provides a means of expansion. Like flyingbabydoc said, it is embryonic research that has found many of the growth factors that have benefitted adult stem cell research. Adult and embryonic stem cells are not two different entities and work off of each other. In the end, maybe omnipotent lines harvested from embryos can be cultured and kept around without having to destroy more embryos; but we will never be able to try achieving that if Bush stifles research. And again, government grants vastly outnumber the amount of money in the private sector. What you are talking about results sounds more like impatience and the need to see quick and tangible results. And concerning cures and treatments, only a small percentage of money put into research ever comes out to a viable drug or treatment (im talking at most 10%, and that is probably and overestimate); still that doesn't mean we shouldn't engage in scientific pursuits. Would you rather the money be spend over some bullshit pork project? Lots of medical research has come up with no "cures" yet (HIV), but they don't get the same scrutiny as embryonic stem cell research, simply because religious conservatives have decided to make it an issue.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 32):
Can anyone explain how embryonic stem cell research is against Bush's religious values?

Usually those people are along the same lines as those against abortion.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:25 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 36):
If the majority of this country had the ideals that did not agree with GW then he wouldn't be president.

So you're of the opinion that it is impossible for people who voted for Bush to disagree with him on some issues? Give us a call when you're back to reality.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 36):
I jsut got done destroying a lame argument

I don't know about destroying, but you're certainly doing a lot of creating.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
sw733
Posts: 5884
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 6:19 am

RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 7:50 am

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 32):
Can anyone explain how embryonic stem cell research is against Bush's religious values?

Yes, he sees it as ending a human life. The whole debate is whether or not it is a human life yet or not, thus the whole hulabaloo.
 
QantasA332
Posts: 1473
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:47 pm

RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 36):
Not at all I jsut got done destroying a lame argument that is trying to say that most of the country doesn't think the same way GW does. If that was the case, Kerry would be in office and this bill would be signed. Your lame attempt at a poll to try to make people think otherwise is laughable.

Ahh, the fail-safe fall-back argument. If people really don't support Bush in such endeavours, then he wouldn't have gotten elected in the first place! Foolproof! I get it!

That pathetic argument falls apart when you consider that there's a good chance Bush wasn't elected. And for those people who wouldn't dare consider such a slanderous accusation, at least acknowledge the closeness of both elections.  Yeah sure
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 36):
If the majority of this country had the ideals that did not agree with GW then he wouldn't be president. Fact is the people that feel the same way as he don't particpate in these liberal polls. For you to sit there and try to make the government out to be something remember that it was YOU and me that put them there.

I'll be honest... I'm not even sure I ought to keep debating you. You and I have never really talked before... but I am beginning to understand why so many others have warned against it. You're impossible to talk too.

**sigh** look, people don't vote on single issues. Hell, back in 2004, on the list of most important issues to voters, stem-cells were not even in the top ten. Just because you vote for a person does not mean you cannot disagree with them on certain issues.

Why is it difficult for you to understand that people who voted for President Bush, may not agree with his position on stem-cell research???

(BTW, Nicky, it's President Bush. I find it odd that this is a man whom you deeply support, yet you cannot even pay the proper respect to office he holds.)

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 36):
Not at all I jsut got done destroying a lame argument that is trying to say that most of the country doesn't think the same way GW does. If that was the case, Kerry would be in office and this bill would be signed. Your lame attempt at a poll to try to make people think otherwise is laughable.

I mean really, it's such a silly, and one dimensional argument, that I am having a hard time believing you're being serious.

You don't like Gallup? Fine. But you're ignoring the other agencies - even the more conservative ones - who are reporting the same findings?

Nicky, do you believe it's some sort of grand conspiracy, on the behalf of all polling agencies, to fabricate this giant lie. To produce phony evidence that the majority of Americans support easing laws on SC research.... do you????  rotfl 

lol... when you get a better argument, come back to us. Otherwise, you've been totally sunk.


-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 11:26 am

Quoting QantasA332 (Reply 41):
That pathetic argument falls apart when you consider that there's a good chance Bush wasn't elected. And for those people who wouldn't dare consider such a slanderous accusation, at least acknowledge the closeness of both elections.

Both elections were close, but Bush was elected, pure and simple. Even in 2000. You can talk about whether it is right that a candidate would win the popular vote but not the electoral college, and that viewpoint has some merit, but under the system that was (and still is) in place, Bush is the rightful occupant of the White House. Whether the system is fair or not is a subject for another thread.

You are, in a sense, making the same (fatally flawed) argument that NIKV69 is in reverse - since the country disagrees with Bush on this issue, there is a good chance that he wasn't elected. And it holds no more water than his does.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
NIKV69
Posts: 14335
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:11 pm

Quoting QantasA332 (Reply 41):
That pathetic argument falls apart when you consider that there's a good chance Bush wasn't elected

Oh my  faint 

Yea I forgot he stole the election.

Quoting Mir (Reply 39):
So you're of the opinion that it is impossible for people who voted for Bush to disagree with him on some issues? Give us a call when you're back to reality.

No not at all, but you are trying to say the country is full of people that think a certain way just because you poll heavlily laden liberal areas. This is not the case. Bush's views are shared by much more people than you give credit for (or are willing to).

Quoting QantasA332 (Reply 41):
at least acknowledge the closeness of both elections.

Oh yea real close. Yet Bush still won. I mean you all swore he had zero chance in 04' and that Kerry was a sure winner. Well Bush won and it wasn't even debatable. Get over it and stop the dilusions already. For once admit that this country didn't want a liberal in the white house.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 42):
You're impossible to talk too.

OIC if someone doesn't agree with your view you can't talk to them? Typical liberal.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 42):
**sigh** look, people don't vote on single issues. Hell, back in 2004, on the list of most important issues to voters, stem-cells were not even in the top ten.

No kidding, but it boils down to the same as abortion, ending a life that some view is a life. It's an issue that has been key in politics. Or haven't you noticed?  sarcastic 

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 42):
Why is it difficult for you to understand that people who voted for President Bush, may not agree with his position on stem-cell research???

See above.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 42):
(BTW, Nicky, it's President Bush. I find it odd that this is a man whom you deeply support, yet you cannot even pay the proper respect to office he holds.)

OMG I can't believe your serious. You going to check under my nails and see if I washed my hands after dinner? It's a message board. People omit tons of stuff in the name of effeciency.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 42):
I mean really, it's such a silly, and one dimensional argument, that I am having a hard time believing you're being serious.

You don't like Gallup? Fine. But you're ignoring the other agencies - even the more conservative ones - who are reporting the same findings?

Nicky, do you believe it's some sort of grand conspiracy, on the behalf of all polling agencies, to fabricate this giant lie. To produce phony evidence that the majority of Americans support easing laws on SC research.... do you????

lol... when you get a better argument, come back to us. Otherwise, you've been totally sunk.

What you can't believe is that someone called BS on your crap about trying to make everyone believe that the vast majority of the country wants stem cell research because you want it? Along with a Gallup poll that is flawed at best. Go to the bible belt or texas or somewhere where the majority don't want stem cell research and do a poll. You will get the exact opposite results. When it came time to go to the REAL polls in Nov of 2004 this country voted in a president (President BUSH, you happy a president they knew would veto things like this Bill. Who supports Life and not ending it. It is your argument that is lame pal. Face it.
90 Day Fiancé has taught me that Russian woman are excellent.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:37 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 44):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 42):
You're impossible to talk too.

OIC if someone doesn't agree with your view you can't talk to them? Typical liberal.

 spit  UH60 is a liberal. Oh, that's a good one.  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

NIKV69, ladies and gentlemen! He'll be here all week.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
jpetekyxmd80
Posts: 4330
Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2003 3:16 am

RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:44 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 45):

spit UH60 is a liberal. Oh, that's a good one. rotfl rotfl rotfl

Hah! I noticed that too.


Nick is unbelievably clueless, unbelievably whacked out.

Why don't you go ask your boy Jonathan Karl about this one, Nicky? Hopefully he'll add some shades of competency to your arguments.
The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
 
AirCop
Posts: 5553
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 2:39 am

RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:38 pm

Okay, NIKV69 took me a couple of seconds found a poll from Texas;

HOUSTON-(Sept. 7, 2004)-Nearly two in three (65 percent) of Americans support the use of discarded embryos for stem cell research, says a new poll commissioned by The University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston and conducted by Zogby International.

The nationwide, 61-part survey on health issues also found that 72 percent of those polled support the use of stem cells for finding treatments for Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's or juvenile diabetes; while more than half (55 percent) do not believe it is "ethical" to conceive a child to harvest stem cells to save an existing child's life.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 44):
Go to the bible belt or texas or somewhere where the majority don't want stem cell research and do a poll.

Care to reevaluate your statement.
 
mdsh00
Topic Author
Posts: 4058
Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 11:28 am

RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting AirCop (Reply 47):
HOUSTON-(Sept. 7, 2004)-Nearly two in three (65 percent) of Americans support the use of discarded embryos for stem cell research, says a new poll commissioned by The University of Texas Health Science Center at Houston and conducted by Zogby International.The nationwide, 61-part survey on health issues also found that 72 percent of those polled support the use of stem cells for finding treatments for Parkinson's disease, Alzheimer's or juvenile diabetes; while more than half (55 percent) do not believe it is "ethical" to conceive a child to harvest stem cells to save an existing child's life.

No! That has to be wrong, since UTHSC most likely went and polled a majority of liberals in this poll.

Signed,
NIKV69
 
UH60FtRucker
Posts: 3252
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:15 am

RE: Bush Vetoes Stem Cell Research Bill

Fri Jun 22, 2007 6:36 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 44):

OIC if someone doesn't agree with your view you can't talk to them? Typical liberal.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Wow. You're the first anetter to ever call me liberal!!!

You're head has apparently been in the sand for longer than I thought.

lol... you're too funny.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 44):
No kidding, but it boils down to the same as abortion, ending a life that some view is a life. It's an issue that has been key in politics. Or haven't you noticed?

Well... apparently you're wrong. AGAIN.

Stem-cell research was not even in the top ten biggest issues on voters minds.

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 44):
People omit tons of stuff in the name of effeciency.

Oh... I get ya... you're just lazy. You must be one of those damn liberals!

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 44):
What you can't believe is that someone called BS on your crap about trying to make everyone believe that the vast majority of the country wants stem cell research because you want it?

I want it? ME???

Nicky, I want you to go back through this thread, and show me where I ONCE said I supported stem cell research!!

All I did was call you out on your BS post, where you said that the majority of people were opposed to this research. Because it was obvious you were too intellectually lazy (hey, there's that word again. Am I detecting a pattern with you?) Because had you done some research, you would have found out you were wrong.

...so I just gave you a friendly hand in helping to show you that you're totally wrong.  Smile

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 44):
Along with a Gallup poll that is flawed at best. Go to the bible belt or texas or somewhere where the majority don't want stem cell research and do a poll. You will get the exact opposite results.

Hey, like I already told you - forget about the Gallup poll. I will stipulate for the sake of this argument that they might be politically motivated.

HOWEVER, we've given you multiple sources. Are you telling me that Rasmussen - a conservative trusted and respected agency - is also lying? How about Zogby? Or how about Quinnipiac University? Or how about American Research Group?

Are ALL of those companies conspiring with liberals to release phony polling results?

Face, Nicky, you've been totally shot out of the water.

-UH60
Your men have to follow your orders. They don't have to go to your funeral.

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