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Halcyon
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Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:48 pm

While scanning the glorious interwebs after work, I came across this link to an AP piece on some recent events in Venezuela:

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8PVLEN80&show_article=1

Basically, Chavez is buying billions of dollars of weapons from Russia (Oh, Putin, Putin, Putin, you are a great man...) and telling his troops to prepare for a "guerrilla-style war against the United States." At the same time, he claims that we're going to be the aggressors, and that we're (America)also launching psychological warfare campaigns against the Fatherland. Since we did launch the anti-Persian campaign against Iran (Codenamed "300"), I can really feel for this guy.  Yeah sure

Anyway, I thought that you might all like to see what's been going on...especially the "Fatherland, Socialism, or Death" part of it. Certainly sounds friendly, no.

As of this point, I'm interested in what people think a good solution for this is. I really feel bad for our Venezuelan friends, and I'd be glad to hear people's thoughts on this issue.

I'd like to see this thing nipped in the bud (If that is still possible.), but I don't know how that can be accomplished.
 
LHMark
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:55 pm

Since we're not going to invade Venezuela, there won't be a "resistance war." Chavez is just using a tried and true method of holding power. The world will probably just have to wait for him to go away.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
Halcyon
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:58 pm

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 1):
The world will probably just have to wait for him to go away.

Aye, it's too bad that there is no magic button you can push to make people like him just disappear.  Sad
 
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bwest
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:12 pm

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 1):

Aye, it's too bad that there is no magic button you can push to make people like him just disappear. Sad

I'm sure the good people in Langley agree with you... "if only we had this button for the last 40 years" I hear them thinking "it would've saved us lots of nasty undercover ops in S-America like FUBELT & PBSUCESS"

Still, Chavez was chosen through democratic elections...now that his presidency taking a turn for the worse, we can only hope that the people of Venezuela will get the chance of another free election to show him the backdoor... I don't think military intervention would be a good idea, or even an option, with the American military already heavily engaged in other conflicts.
 
LHMark
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:14 pm

Quoting Bwest (Reply 3):
we can only hope that the people of Venezuela will get the chance of another free election to show him the backdoor

Luis Sojo for President of Venezuela!
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
Kieron747
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 2):
Aye, it's too bad that there is no magic button you can push to make people like him just disappear.

I believe this woman has such a button.



Kieron747
Airliners.Net - The Jam Rag Of The Web.
 
Halcyon
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Mon Jun 25, 2007 10:47 pm

Quoting Bwest (Reply 3):
I'm sure the good people in Langley agree with you..

Hopefully a lot of people would agree with me, but...

Quoting Kieron747 (Reply 5):
I believe this woman has such a button.

...Kieron was much closer.  Wink

I don't think that Venezuela is going to see the end of this soon.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Mon Jun 25, 2007 11:30 pm

Thirty or more years ago, the USA would have sent in troops or CIA persons to kill Chavez. We can't do that anymore and we sure can't do without the oil from Venezuela. They also control a major oil company in the USA (Citgo). Evenetually the people of Venezuela will turn against this tryant and find a more balanced leader.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:11 am

Doesn't Venezuela have some disputed borders with it's neighbours? I assume that sooner or later Chavez will try to "liberate" some provinces of neighbouring countries (Colombia comes to mind). Since in these cases the US will most likely be obliged to lend a hand, this might then be the start of the "guerilla agaibst the US", claiming that the "liberated" territories have been an integral part of Venezuela, the war could be used propagandawise as "defensive", since then any action to reclaim the land could be seen as "invasion of souvereign Venezuelian territory".

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
PPVRA
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
Doesn't Venezuela have some disputed borders with it's neighbours?

With Guyana I believe  checkmark 

Side note - I've heard **rumors** that the Netherlands (!!!) have beefed up military arsenal in Aruba. I don't know how to verify that, however.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
flyorski
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 3:33 am

He was elected by the people, and so it is up to them to decide when enough is enough, and kick him out of office.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
TheCol
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting Halcyon (Thread starter):
Chavez is buying billions of dollars of weapons from Russia (Oh, Putin, Putin, Putin, you are a great man...)

I doubt that will surprise anyone. Personally, I am surprised that Chavez hasn't started buying from China yet.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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gunsontheroof
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 7:56 am

Quoting Halcyon (Thread starter):

Basically, Chavez is buying billions of dollars of weapons from Russia (Oh, Putin, Putin, Putin, you are a great man...) and telling his troops to prepare for a "guerrilla-style war against the United States." At the same time, he claims that we're going to be the aggressors, and that we're (America)also launching psychological warfare campaigns against the Fatherland.

Well...a "guerrilla-style" war certainly would require an invasion...not sure why you're finding that shocking.

As for invading sovereign nations *cough*Iraq*cough* and launching covert warfare campaigns (psychological and otherwise) to undermine elected governments, you're clearly unacquainted with the history of U.S. military interventions abroad. I'm not nuts about Chavez either, but he's got more than a few reasons to plan for a U.S. invasion (the Bush Administration already backed one coupe attempt against him and backed opposition parties during the 2006 elections, violating both U.S. and Venezuelan law).

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 4):

Luis Sojo for President of Venezuela!

His inside the park homer for the Mariners against the Angels during the AL West Championship tie-breaker in 1995 won my vote. Viva Luis!
Picked a hell of a week to quit sniffing glue.
 
Halcyon
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:27 pm

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 12):
Well...a "guerrilla-style" war certainly would require an invasion...not sure why you're finding that shocking.

We're also clearly stretched thin right now. And we're also clearly not doing too much about it.

This is a lot closer to our relationship with Cuba than with Iraq, I do believe.

Covert CIA operations I would not be surprised about, however.
 
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bwest
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 5:01 pm

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 13):
And we're also clearly not doing too much about it.

And you shouldn't... Venezuela is a sovereign nation, and though its ruler doesn't like the US government, that's not really a reason to attack the country. Venezuela is at the moment not a threat to the US, and is not very likely to become one. Certainly not in a military sense, there are no WMD's or whatever (well... mabye in the future there'll be imaginary ones like in Iraq).

They might decide to break all economic ties with the US (what would be a stupid thing to do, and would hurt them more then it would the US), but even that wouldn't really justify an attack.
 
Halcyon
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:39 pm

Quoting Bwest (Reply 14):

They might decide to break all economic ties with the US (what would be a stupid thing to do, and would hurt them more then it would the US), but even that wouldn't really justify an attack.

I never said that I wanted to attack.  eyebrow 

I said that I'd like to see it nipped in the bud, but was not aware of any possible way for that to be done.

What you just quoted me on (being stretched thin), you may have mistook. I meant that we're not doing anything about wrapping up our current situation, not about going to Venezuela. There is no reason for military action there currently, and the country has many good and sensible people. If there was some way we could help them, I'd love that, and that was my concern in the OP. Personally, I don't feel any need to go into other countries unless they're going to attack us. I'd rather America police itself before it polices the world.
 
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bwest
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:07 pm

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 15):
Personally, I don't feel any need to go into other countries unless they're going to attack us. I'd rather America police itself before it polices the world.

My apologies then for the misunderstanding  Wink
 
Halcyon
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:11 pm

Quoting Bwest (Reply 16):

My apologies then for the misunderstanding

Don't worry about it Bwest, I should have made myself clearer. (As usual.)  Silly
 
dl021
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
Doesn't Venezuela have some disputed borders with it's neighbours?

With Guyana I believe

Side note - I've heard **rumors** that the Netherlands (!!!) have beefed up military arsenal in Aruba. I don't know how to verify that, however.

Well, any ideas he gets about grabbing land in Guyana or the Netherlands Antilles would bring a fairly quick reaction. He can't do it if the Dutch or British (or, hell, the US) decides he shouldn't. Guyana is an independent republic, but it's also a member of the Commonwealth, and could probably count upon assistance if it was under attack from (both political and in the realm of military supply, perhaps even physical assistance) and the Netherlands is capable of defending the islands (mostly because the Venezuelan navy would be hard pressed to assault NATO since some of those islands are Dutch sovereign territory).

But realistically none of this will happen. I think Chavez is intent on keeping his own land under his thumb, as well as however much of Easter Colombia he can manage to snatch.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting Halcyon (Thread starter):
what people think a good solution for this is

Mr Chavez may be on his way to become a Cuba style dictator
Mr Chavez may be eliminating freedom in his country which is equally bad
Mr Chavez may ruining the economy of his country which is bad also
-
BUT your contribution above simply is a demagogic rant
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:30 pm

Quoting Halcyon (Thread starter):
what people think a good solution for this is

Mr Chavez may be on his way to become a Cuba style dictator
Mr Chavez may be eliminating freedom in his country which is equally bad
Mr Chavez may ruining the economy of his country which is bad also
-
BUT your contribution above simply is a demagogic rant

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 1):
The world will probably just have to wait for him to go away.

WHEN ?
-

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 9):
beefed up military arsenal in Aruba

well, when Guyana has been "liberated" and "venezuelanized" and the language there officially changed from English to Spanish, Surinam may face a problem.
-

Quoting Bwest (Reply 14):
there are no WMD's or whatever

sure about this ? I think I have a vision of GWB declaring to have "increasing evidence ............." !
-
 
Halcyon
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:45 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 19):
BUT your contribution above simply is a demagogic rant

Idiot.

I asked for opinions on what the best way to help Venezuela might be, and asked for all opinions. I also said that I'd like this crazy man stopped from making anything worse. I never said anything beyond that; my intentions were honorable and I worded my thread so that people would have no reason to go making the foolish statements like what I quoted from you. Lastly, I stated the facts as reported. "Demagogic rant" eh? No wonder you're always being attacked MAF, you don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Now take you BS and shove it, you narrow-minded tool.

Lucas

PS-A good solution could equal: economic sanctions, sending aid personally to people you know there in case things get bad, etc, etc. God your crap pisses me off sometimes. "He's having a demagogic rant because he feels bad for people in a situation that's spiraling out of control! Look at him! "

PPS-Idiot.
 
Queso
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Tue Jun 26, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 2):
too bad that there is no magic button you can push to make people like him just disappear.

There is, but there are too many peaceniks around these days to use it.
 
ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
Joined: Fri May 31, 2002 12:05 am

RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 21):
the best way to help Venezuela might be

this question was rather hidden in your rant. To be quite clear about it, a military "intervention" would not be a good help for Venezuela. One thing is for the USA and the UN to abstain from sanctions and embargoes. Another way to help would be to establish a base-ship with a TV-station in the Curacao-region broadcasting independent news in Spanish for a regional audience, to be received by normal antennas. And, just as a Maltese internet provider for many years served Libyan visitors with an internet-account reachable from Libya via phone, a similar scheme from Curacao might help Venezuelans to circumvent certain problems.
-
 
Halcyon
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Wed Jun 27, 2007 12:07 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 23):

Which I think I did more than enough to clarify in my reply to Bwest.


Nice to see that my rant has been demoted from demagogic.

Quoting Queso (Reply 22):
There is, but there are too many peaceniks around these days to use it.

I have this friend who added on a story to his house. He installed a new bathroom and put in a urinal. Beside the urinal he placed a red presidential phone. I think he wanted that button you're referring to there, also.  Wink

[Edited 2007-06-26 17:08:53]
 
baroque
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Wed Jun 27, 2007 1:21 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 1):
Since we're not going to invade Venezuela, there won't be a "resistance war." Chavez is just using a tried and true method of holding power. The world will probably just have to wait for him to go away.

Well it has worked for elections in Aus, the UK and the US, so why deprive Hugo of a perfectly effective tactic. You know it has been so difficult for so many politicians since Russia unilaterally wrecked the reds under the beds story for the kiddies. So let us make Hugo into an ogre, he is close which makes him bigger!

I think Guns forgot to add Bay of Pigs to his list???
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
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RE: Fatherland, Socialism, Or Death.

Wed Jun 27, 2007 4:51 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 19):
BUT your contribution above simply is a demagogic rant



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 20):
sure about this ? I think I have a vision of GWB declaring to have "increasing evidence ............." !

 Yeah sure
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.

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