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gkirk
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Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Sat Jun 30, 2007 10:48 pm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6255222.stm
The dawn of a new, SNP-led era for Scotland  Smile
And the fight for independence continues...
 
jycarlisle
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:16 am

With all due respect (and nothing personal), ... she will never be Queen of Scotland as much as she claims lineage back to the Scottish monarch.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:30 am

Quoting Jycarlisle (Reply 1):
she will never be Queen of Scotland as much as she claims lineage back to the Scottish monarch.

Except, of course, that she is, regardless of your frankly bizarre assertions to the contrary, based on your claimed lineage stretching back to Robert the Bruce. I don't know how the Bruces connect up with the Stuarts, who were the last line of monarchs of an independent Scotland, who took over the crown on England with James VI (1st of England) in 1603, but the Stuart line officially ended with Queen Anne who died childless in 1714. Seriously, accept it.

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter):
And the fight for independence continues...

Did all the SNP MP's swear the oath of loyaltly like good little subjects ? Independence - tee hee...
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:36 am

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter):
And the fight for independence continues...

Independence inside or outside the EU? (especially with the knowledge that the North Sea oil/gas will not last forever).
And you know that as a new EU member you'll have to become part of the Eurozone...  smirk 

Jan
 
gkirk
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:48 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
And you know that as a new EU member you'll have to become part of the Eurozone... smirk

We'll pledge allegiance to the USA  Wink
 
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LTU932
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:12 am

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter):
And the fight for independence continues...

What fight for independence? I didn't know that Edward the Longshanks was still in power and you're William Wallace, Graham.  stirthepot   duck 
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 3):
Independence inside or outside the EU? (especially with the knowledge that the North Sea oil/gas will not last forever).
And you know that as a new EU member you'll have to become part of the Eurozone...

Something the SNP seem curiously silent on.

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter):
And the fight for independence continues...

Piece of cake. First, try to persuade the Scots that independence isn't a completely insane idea...

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 5):
I didn't know that Edward the Longshanks was still in power and you're William Wallace

Ah, yes. That would be the battle where there were more Scots on the so-called "English" side than there were on the "Scottish" one.  Yeah sure
 
gkirk
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:04 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):
Ah, yes. That would be the battle where there were more Scots on the so-called "English" side than there were on the "Scottish" one. Yeah sure

Considering that you were born around that period, then you should know...  Wink
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter):
And the fight for independence continues...

And yet you strangely assert that Scotland is already a "country", thus deminishing your struggle toward independence.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 4):
We'll pledge allegiance to the USA

Who says you should pledge allegiance to anybody? That's a very English way of thinking if I may say so.  Wink

QFF
 
gkirk
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:36 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 8):
Who says you should pledge allegiance to anybody? That's a very English way of thinking if I may say so. Wink

Well, it would put us in a perfect position if the US ever decided to bomb/invade England. We'd happily let them launch from Scotland  Wink

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 8):
And yet you strangely assert that Scotland is already a "country"

Which it is. Unfortunately it's not yet an independent country.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:58 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 9):
Which it is. Unfortunately it's not yet an independent country.

Have you personally considered the practical implications of an independent scotland? Have you considered a new constitution and do you have a preferred model? I'm not asking you to recite exactly what you would like to see happen - but I'm curious to know just how far you've gone with regard to considering what would practically have to change.

QFF
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 5:53 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 10):
Have you personally considered the practical implications of an independent scotland?

Has he hell. He can't even come up with any practical advantages to it - I asked him a while back. It's one of the stupidest ideas anywhere, an exercise in dick-waving rather than a considered necessity. And the worst part of it is, that the English are so fed up with the Scots takling all the money, having self-rule, and still whinging, that support for an independent Scotland is higher in England than it is north of the border.  Yeah sure
 
cornish
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 6:19 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 11):
It's one of the stupidest ideas anywhere, an exercise in dick-waving rather than a considered necessity.

 rotfl 

Quoting Banco (Reply 11):
And the worst part of it is, that the English are so fed up with the Scots takling all the money, having self-rule, and still whinging, that support for an independent Scotland is higher in England than it is north of the border.

 checkmark  Yep if anyone should have a gripe its the English for all those Scottish MPs that can vote on England only legislation. and yet the Scots permanently whinge THEY'RE being ruled from London.


I think Kirkie wants independence under the impression that Deep Fried Food is enough to generate a vibrant economy  Wink
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:51 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 11):
Has he hell. He can't even come up with any practical advantages to it - I asked him a while back.

Well, it perhaps isn't a practical decision - more of an aesthetic or cultural one. That doesn't necessarily diminish its importance. In theory, the Irish could have remained a Commonwealth realm but they chose to become a republic for socio-historical reasons. No one doubts the success of the Irish free state. Perhaps Scotland would prosper as a Republic too, who can say?

Quoting Cornish (Reply 12):
Yep if anyone should have a gripe its the English for all those Scottish MPs that can vote on England only legislation. and yet the Scots permanently whinge THEY'RE being ruled from London.

Why does England not devolve and have an exclusive English parliament?

Honestly, the sooner you guys embrace federalism like we have - the better. I can so see it working for you. There's be a British Prime Minister and Scottish, Welsh, and Nothern Irish premiers with their own state governments and concerns. (Almost) everyone's happy.

QFF
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:59 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 13):
Well, it perhaps isn't a practical decision

Exactly. And that's fine. But what you need to understand is that the rest of the country is starting to get seriously fed up with all the moaning and would rather like them to piss off. A recent survey found exactly that.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 13):
Why does England not devolve and have an exclusive English parliament?

Because the Labour government is in a minority in England, that's why, and wouldn't be able to get any of its programme though. The Conservatives, for entirely selfless and noble reasons to do with constitutional sustainability (and nothing at all to do with their inbuilt permanent majority in England, oh no) will ban Scottish MPs from voting on English affairs if elected.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 13):
Honestly, the sooner you guys embrace federalism like we have - the better

No need. You just need a balanced system - as we had for several hundred years before the current lot did half the job and left it a mess.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:10 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
But what you need to understand is that the rest of the country is starting to get seriously fed up with all the moaning and would rather like them to piss off. A recent survey found exactly that.

I think some of the problem has been demonstrated. To many Scots, Scotland is already a "country" despite the fact that it actually is not. If Scots perpetuate this myth then there will be no impetus for change. Scotland needs to present itself as an historically independent country that was dominated by the English hundreds of years ago, and despite the advancements made since then - the arrangement has endured. If Scots (I presume I'm talking about the SNP) can succeed in this, a sufficient amount of Scottish nationalism and anti-Union sentiment will set the scene for a successful republican referendum.

But there's a long to go before that. Scotland needs to develop a republican constitution by holding a constitutional convention. It needs to engage with its own people to highlight the issue's importance through a concerted advertising campaign. It needs to identify its best and brightest to negotiate a withdrawal from the British government. This is phenomenally complex, and it requires action on the part of Scots.

If they are unwilling to do all this (because "Scotland IS a country") then it will never happen. Take it from someone who knows.

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
Because the Labour government is in a minority in England, that's why, and wouldn't be able to get any of its programme though.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. If you keep the national parliament as it stands in London, and say - open a new English parliament in (I don't know) Bristol - you may find that the political climate will be significantly different. In Australia, as in other federations, people will vote one way in state elections and another federally.

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
The Conservatives, for entirely selfless and noble reasons to do with constitutional sustainability (and nothing at all to do with their inbuilt permanent majority in England, oh no) will ban Scottish MPs from voting on English affairs if elected.

I'm not altogether opposed to that. Are you?

QFF
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 15):

First of all, you're talking as though Scottish independence is automatically a good thing. It isn't anything like that. Nor is it part of any long standing desire to win freedom or any other such Braveheart inspired bollocks. Scotland has done extremely well, thank you very much, out of the Union, and most Scots are firmly of the opinion that the SNP believers have taken leave of their senses.

Secondly, Scotland is a country. As is England. It is Britain that is the artificial construct layered on top of them. Comparisons with states or provinces is nonsensical, because these countries are recent developments, settled from afar very often, not established nations with 1,000 years of history behind them.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 15):
I don't think that's necessarily the case

Oh yes it is. You see, Westminster is the English Parliament, the one they gave up to become the British one. So the idea of a new English Parliament elsewhere automatically comes back to "Why do we have to have a new one, when we gave the ungrateful bastards our own. Let's just take that back".

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 15):
I'm not altogether opposed to that. Are you?

Not in the sliightest. I was just making the point that the Tories aren't saying so because they are guardians of political fairness.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:32 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
First of all, you're talking as though Scottish independence is automatically a good thing.

I don't know that is isn't. I'm aware that a lot of tax pounds are sent north to Scotland and that without that money Scotland would potentially be in serious trouble. That said, Scottish independence does have benefits - perhaps not in terms of the economy or making trains run on time - I don't know exactly. What I do know is that the UK is devolving more and more - and it's important that the limitations of that are recognised and the future of that momentum is directed toward something healthy, stable, and long-term.

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
Nor is it part of any long standing desire to win freedom or any other such Braveheart inspired bollocks.

The point I was making is that that sort of furver would be politically necessary to win a republican vote.

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
Secondly, Scotland is a country.

Well, not in a traditional sense. It's not a sovereign nation, nor does it deal independently with other countries. There is so Scottish embassy in Canberra. I understand that historically Scotland WAS a country, but it's at most a state or province under the current arrangements.

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
It is Britain that is the artificial construct layered on top of them.

This is interesting - I've spoken to a number of Britons who claim that a lot of their fellow countrymen don't actually think of the UK as a "country" in the same way that a Malaysian would think about Malaysia or a Dane would think about Denmark. One is English, or one is Scottish etc as opposed to British (in general parlance anyway). Is this fair?

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
You see, Westminster is the English Parliament

I know, but the reality of the current arrangements must be taken into account. It is entire impractical while Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are part of the UK for some "English authority" to kick all non-English members out of parliament. I know it's not fair on England, but you'd have to build your own parliament if you ever wanted one. It's the price you have to pay (historically) for previous conquests.

QFF
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:40 pm

Berlin is at the same time a state, with it's own parliament (in the "Rotes Rathaus"), and the seat of the federal parliament (in the Reichstag).

Jan
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:48 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 17):
Well, not in a traditional sense.

Yes, exactly in a traditional sense. It's only the Johnny-come-latelys like (forgive me) Australia who would think it's all about having an embassy on the other side of the world. Scotland is a country because it's always been one. The political structure above it alters that not a whit.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 17):
This is interesting - I've spoken to a number of Britons who claim that a lot of their fellow countrymen don't actually think of the UK as a "country" in the same way that a Malaysian would think about Malaysia or a Dane would think about Denmark. One is English, or one is Scottish etc as opposed to British (in general parlance anyway). Is this fair?

Partly. It's certainly true that we wouldn't think of the UK as a single nation in the way others might do, because the UK is just one element of their nationality.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 17):
It is entire impractical while Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland are part of the UK for some "English authority" to kick all non-English members out of parliament

No, that's not what's advocated. What is, is for English MPs to vote on English-only affairs. Currently, the Scottish Prime Minister can enact legislation, affecting England only, which is rejected by a majority of English MPs, who have no say over equivalent proposals in Scotland, but whose constituents also fund that Scottish advantage.

No surprise the English are feeling angry.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 17):
It's the price you have to pay (historically) for previous conquests.

Scotland was not conquered. It was a free union of equals. In fact, biased towards Scotland. And this is the usual problem. People from afar look on as though Scotland was some form of English colony. That's bull.
 
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moo
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:18 am

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter):
And the fight for independence continues...



Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 15):
Scotland needs to present itself as an historically independent country that was dominated by the English hundreds of years ago

Your whining about the subjugation of Scotland by England takes a significant hit with the fact that on the 24th March 1603 the English crown passed to the Scottish King James VI who became the English King James I and who voluntarily kept the union of the countries despite being able to do otherwise.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:37 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
It's only the Johnny-come-latelys like (forgive me) Australia who would think it's all about having an embassy on the other side of the world.

Well, I dare say that most people born during the 20th century have come to see a "country" as an autonomous independent state. But that is a debate about words. Perhaps a more appropriate word for England and Scotland should be chosen in light of the general perception of the word "country"?

My country is a country alongside China, the United States and Canada. It is not a country alongside Wales or Scotland. Yes this is a contemporary distinction, but an extremely relevant one, surely.

Can I also just say that I'm not automatically inclined to support a Scottish republic because of my Australian political views. Each country is different, and in some instances I support a monarchy over a republic and vice versa.

Quoting Moo (Reply 20):
Your whining

Whining? Why would I whine about something that doesn't affect me in any way? If you were capable of discerning tone and comprehending context you would see that I wasn't representing my own opinion of historical reality, but proposing strategy for a foreign political movement with which I am in no way involved.

Are you so bored in the Falklands that you're just picking fights these days? Banco and I are having an interesting discussion, if you don't mind.

QFF
 
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moo
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 12:49 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 21):

Whining? Why would I whine about something that doesn't affect me in any way? If you were capable of discerning tone and comprehending context you would see that I wasn't representing my own opinion of historical reality, but proposing strategy for a foreign political movement with which I am in no way involved.

Yes it was whining. Scotland already presents itself as a historically independant country, and anyone that knows the slightest about that history knows that Scotland ceased to be dominated in any way shape or form when James the VI decided to retain the union rather than take Scotlands independance. After that point the union was a choice. That was over 400 years ago.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 21):
Are you so bored in the Falklands that you're just picking fights these days? Banco and I are having an interesting discussion, if you don't mind.

Yes, that was so needed. Don't like the comment so attack the person making it. Nice discussion technique.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting Moo (Reply 22):
Scotland already presents itself as a historically independant country

I'm aware of this. Again, are you completely unable to understand that the comment I made wasn't my opinion, but rather it was a suggested potential strategy for a Scottish political movement?

Quoting Moo (Reply 22):
Yes, that was so needed. Don't like the comment so attack the person making it. Nice discussion technique.

Well, you said I was "whining" when I suggested a strategy for proponents of scottish independence. It wasn't even advice, I was stating prerequisites for a successful vote. It has nothing to do with telling history with great accuracy.

Are you still none the wiser as to what I was saying, or are you going to throw another fit? I'm not sure if I can make this any clearer for you without drawing some sort of diagram.

QFF
 
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moo
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 23):
I'm aware of this. Again, are you completely unable to understand that the comment I made wasn't my opinion, but rather it was a suggested potential strategy for a Scottish political movement?

In the following block, even taking the full context into account, you never, not once, stated that - as read, it certainly comes across as 100% opinion on your part as to what should happen.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 15):
I think some of the problem has been demonstrated. To many Scots, Scotland is already a "country" despite the fact that it actually is not. If Scots perpetuate this myth then there will be no impetus for change. Scotland needs to present itself as an historically independent country that was dominated by the English hundreds of years ago, and despite the advancements made since then - the arrangement has endured. If Scots (I presume I'm talking about the SNP) can succeed in this, a sufficient amount of Scottish nationalism and anti-Union sentiment will set the scene for a successful republican referendum.

How does that *not* read as opinion on your part? You didn't indicate in the comment that it was anything but.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 23):

Are you still none the wiser as to what I was saying, or are you going to throw another fit? I'm not sure if I can make this any clearer for you without drawing some sort of diagram.

Im not the one having a fit here, but you certainly seem to need your nappy changing.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:25 am

The Bavarians in Germany behave in a similar way (BTW, like the Scots they pronounce the "R" with a rolling sound, dress weirdly and live in the hills).
Happily taking federal money (and happily forgetting that until the 1950s they were a poor agrarian state, they only got propped up by money from the German structural funds, which at this time came mostly from the heavy industry belt in the Ruhr area, plus that companies forced out of communist East germany settled in Bavaria, because back then land prices and wages were low), but constantly insisting on being different from the rest of us (like not having the Bundespolizei / Bundesgrenzschutz (Federal Police / Border police) but a "Bavarian Border Police", not having a German red Cross, but a Bavarian Red Cross etc.). Under the Bavarian prime minister Strauss in the 1970s they even tried to set up Bavarian embassies in some African countries until it got stopped by the fderal department of foreign affairs.

Jan
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:30 am

Within the quote I said this:

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 15):
Scotland needs to present itself as an historically independent country that was dominated by the English hundreds of years ago, and despite the advancements made since then - the arrangement has endured.

How that can be construed as my opinion is rather baffling. It would be like me saying that "Mr. X needs to present himself as a saint if he wants to win the election". I don't necesarrily *think* that he's a saint, I just think he needs to present himself as such to be successful.

Here's what I don't like about what you've done. You jumped to an unsubstantiated conclusion, had a go at me, and demonstrated your ignorance all in the one post. That's quite a feat. Now you're being vulgar.

And that *is* my opinion.

QFF
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 21):
But that is a debate about words.

Which is pretty much the point of course. Because whenever someone says something about a "country" the truth is that there is no UN defined terminology. It means what people want it to, and so you have "nation" (for example) used interchangeably. So you have a Bantu nation, a native American nation as well as the more obvious usage. Then you could always have tried telling the people of Ukraine, circa 1980, that it wasn't a country and see whether you escaped alive.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 21):
but an extremely relevant one, surely.

I don't know that it is. You see, few would equate England or Scotland directly to Australia or the US; obviously, that's the UK. But then, neither is it remotely equivalent to states or provinces. It's an entirely different thing, separate countries choosing to band together.

Quoting Moo (Reply 22):
and anyone that knows the slightest about that history knows that Scotland ceased to be dominated in any way shape or form when James the VI decided to retain the union rather than take Scotlands independance. After that point the union was a choice. That was over 400 years ago.

This is more or less true. Scotland in fact wasn't remotely "free" beforehand, being little more than a vassal state of France. The union of the crowns didn't actually mean that the two nations were inextricably bound, as the execution of Charles I highlighted.

Nevertheless, the Act of Union fundamentally came about because Scotland had bankrupted itself with the disastrous attempt to establish a colony in Panama, and England effectively wrote off the debt. With English money behind them, Scotland thrived as a nation, making a global contribution out of all proportion with its size. But it wasn't any kind of conquest, it was a choice, and Scotland has done unbelievably well out of it. As part of the "deal" the English effectively eliminated their nationality as a separate entity under the guise of all being British.

This is why, to the disbelief of modern readers, English and British were used interchangeably in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. The English as a separate group had effectively ceased to exist. It's been the last 30 years that has changed, and the great irony is that it is largely down to the Scots.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
like the Scots they pronounce the "R" with a rolling sound, dress weirdly and live in the hills

That is probably the finest summation of the Scottish people I think I've ever read.

Quoting Banco (Reply 27):
Then you could always have tried telling the people of Ukraine, circa 1980, that it wasn't a country and see whether you escaped alive.

Well, (and GKirk has tried to do this on a number of occasions  Wink ) I can't say that I'm generally swayed toward or against any particular opinion out of fear of violent reprisals. I think that's daft.

Quoting Banco (Reply 27):
But then, neither is it remotely equivalent to states or provinces.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree there, because to me the similarities are striking.

Quoting Banco (Reply 27):
It's been the last 30 years that has changed, and the great irony is that it is largely down to the Scots.

Do you think this whole recent change will contribute to devolution to the extent that we'll see a Scottish republic?

QFF
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:49 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 28):
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree there, because to me the similarities are striking.

Only administratively. And this is always the problem when you talk about "nations" - it's a state of mind as much as anything else, particularly in the absence of distinct ethnic or linguistic groupings.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 28):
Do you think this whole recent change will contribute to devolution to the extent that we'll see a Scottish republic?

No. A republic isn't even remotely on the radar. The monarchy, in England or Scotland, remains as an institution very popular. That wouldn't be affected in the slightest even if Scotland drifted towards independence - or the English did. What would happen after any independence, who knows. But I actually still think Scottish independence is extremely unlikely, because it's a completely wild jump into the unknown, without the slightest benefit.
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:55 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 29):
Only administratively.

True, because in my country (and in others) the words "nation" and "country" are exclusively administrative. Now, if you were talking about one's "land" - then you'd be speaking my language.

Quoting Banco (Reply 29):
No. A republic isn't even remotely on the radar.

Really? Not even within the ranks of the SNP?

Quoting Banco (Reply 29):
But I actually still think Scottish independence is extremely unlikely, because it's a completely wild jump into the unknown, without the slightest benefit.

Heh - would be interesting (hypothetically) to see what happens to devolution if Britain as a whole became a republic. The chances of that are slim, I know - but it would sort out those who want a republic for Scotland from those that just dislike a royal family populated by the English.

QFF
 
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moo
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RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:03 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 26):

How that can be construed as my opinion is rather baffling.

How you can continue to maintain that it does not come across as opinion is what is baffling.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 26):

Here's what I don't like about what you've done. You jumped to an unsubstantiated conclusion, had a go at me, and demonstrated your ignorance all in the one post. That's quite a feat. Now you're being vulgar.

My conclusion was not unsubstantiated, I did not have 'a go' at you, and I demonstrated knowledge about the history of Scotland and the British union which many people in this thread seemed to lack either through deliberate omission in their opinions or through accidental ignorance.

You then went on to claim I was having a fit, where as you are the one having the issue here and throwing a tantrum while trying to explain away your previous posts as a 'non opinion' (something that does not infact alter in any way my original point).

Its quite obvious that you are not infact interested in having an actual discussion of any sort, and would rather try and belittle me than answer my points.

You would make a fine politician, have a nice day sir for I am done here.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 28):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
like the Scots they pronounce the "R" with a rolling sound, dress weirdly and live in the hills

That is probably the finest summation of the Scottish people I think I've ever read.

I forgot to put a  Wink behind this sentence

Jan
 
gkirk
Topic Author
Posts: 23454
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:17 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 11):

 Yeah sure

Whilst I would absolutely LOVE to see an independent Scotland, if people vote to remain part of the UK, then so be it.
Although, saying that, it is hilarious how we can meddle in English affairs and they can do sod all about us Big grin

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 30):
Really? Not even within the ranks of the SNP?

Nope, not even the tiniest thought. You see, we aren't really bothered about the Monarchy, they usually keep theselves to themselves and you rarely hear about them.
 
User avatar
LTU932
Posts: 13725
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:23 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 33):
an independent Scotland

...ain't gonna happen. Scotland is and will continue to be British.  mischievous 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/800px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png
 
gkirk
Topic Author
Posts: 23454
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:27 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 34):
...ain't gonna happen. Scotland is and will continue to be British. mischievous

I would reply to that, but I would probably get banned for a long time so I wont  Wink
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 33):
You see, we aren't really bothered about the Monarchy, they usually keep theselves to themselves and you rarely hear about them.

Right. Get back to me in about 20-30 years. I can hear the storm rumbling off in the distance...

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 35):
I would reply to that, but I would probably get banned for a long time so I wont

At times, we are kindred spirits you and I.

QFF
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 10:50 am

Another similarity between Bavarians and Scots: Both like to drink lots of beer... and then like to do weird sports, like armwrestling, throwing of sledge hammers and tree trunks... and they like to sing loudly when drunk...  Wink

Jan
 
gkirk
Topic Author
Posts: 23454
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:14 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 37):
Another similarity between Bavarians and Scots: Both like to drink lots of beer... and then like to do weird sports, like armwrestling, throwing of sledge hammers and tree trunks... and they like to sing loudly when drunk... Wink

Whereas you Germans like to put towels down on sunbeds and go to bed at 6pm. You miserable sods  Wink
 
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LTU932
Posts: 13725
Joined: Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:34 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 4:33 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 38):
Whereas you Germans like to put towels down on sunbeds and go to bed at 6pm. You miserable sods

Come on, Graham, don't generalise.  Wink At least we have don't eat cooked animal guts wrapped in a sheep's stomach.  duck 
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:05 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 38):
Whereas you Germans like to put towels down on sunbeds and go to bed at 6pm. You miserable sods

I'm sorry, but GKirk is NOT generalising. Germans are the most inconsiderate people when it comes to hotel swimming pools.

QFF
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:43 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 33):
Whilst I would absolutely LOVE to see an independent Scotland,

Why? You've never come up with a single decent reason. By the way, that "independent" Scotland (you know, the one with the Euro and bugger all power either in the EU or elsewhere), can wave goodbye to free higher education, free prescriptions, free residential care for the elderly, free eye tests, all those expensive drugs you get that the English don't.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 33):
it is hilarious how we can meddle in English affairs and they can do sod all about us

You should be concerned. If the English are sufficiently pissed off to cut off the flow of all that lovely money, you might not be laughing as much.
 
RobertNL070
Posts: 4164
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:29 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 5:52 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Thread starter):
Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Has Freddie Mercury been resurrected?  silly 
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:26 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 41):
Why? You've never come up with a single decent reason.

I'm sure in his heart he is a Scot, and he simply would prefer Scotland to be ruled by a fellow Scot. I think that's a decent reason on his part.

Of course, there's probably little practical use - but there are reasons, Banco.

QFF
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 6:40 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 43):
I'm sure in his heart he is a Scot, and he simply would prefer Scotland to be ruled by a fellow Scot.

Er. It is. And so is Britain, by the way. .

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 43):
Of course, there's probably little practical use - but there are reasons, Banco.

Yes. Stupid ones, involving rampant nationalism and an over reliance on Mel Gibson. This is the ridiculous thing. Scotland runs its own affairs, has a massive say in British affairs, out of all proportion to the population, which is less than a tenth of the UK, gets whacking great subsidies from England, has a Scottish Prime Minister and STILL they bitch and whinge.

Which is exactly why more of the English are suggesting that they piss off (something I'm not happy about, by the way). The greatest threat to the union right now is not Scotland, it is an England seething with a sense of injustice.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 7:52 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 39):
Quoting Gkirk (Reply 38):
Whereas you Germans like to put towels down on sunbeds and go to bed at 6pm. You miserable sods

Come on, Graham, don't generalise. Wink At least we have don't eat cooked animal guts wrapped in a sheep's stomach. duck

But on the other hand almost all Scottish women I met so far (and we have quite a few of them among our hosties) are very sweet!  cloudnine 

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 40):
uoting Gkirk (Reply 38):
Whereas you Germans like to put towels down on sunbeds and go to bed at 6pm. You miserable sods

I'm sorry, but GKirk is NOT generalising. Germans are the most inconsiderate people when it comes to hotel swimming pools.

QFF

I wouldn't know, never used a hotel swimming pool. But then, who forces the Scots to go on the p#ss until early morning, passing out until well into the afternoon, the early bird gets the worm... he he  smirk 

Jan
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:05 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
The Conservatives, for entirely selfless and noble reasons to do with constitutional sustainability (and nothing at all to do with their inbuilt permanent majority in England, oh no) will ban Scottish MPs from voting on English affairs if elected.

I'd be very suspicious of any party who considered such a major change "for purely unselfish reasons"  Smile . If Scotland and Wales can have it, the English should be allowed a devolved parliament of their choice. I really think England must have a devolved parliament.

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
But what you need to understand is that the rest of the country is starting to get seriously fed up with all the moaning and would rather like them to piss off. A recent survey found exactly that.

But that would be a bit unfair on the majority of Scots, who either don't want independence or just don't care.

Quoting Banco (Reply 16):
Oh yes it is. You see, Westminster is the English Parliament, the one they gave up to become the British one. So the idea of a new English Parliament elsewhere automatically comes back to "Why do we have to have a new one, when we gave the ungrateful bastards our own. Let's just take that back".

OK, that's one way of looking at it but it is the UK parliament now.  Smile

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 17):
One is English, or one is Scottish etc as opposed to British (in general parlance anyway). Is this fair?

It depends. For example, during the Falklands war, you wouldn't have heard any Scots saying what a good job the English had done or that they hoped the English got a damned good hiding - it was a very "British" thing. When it comes to football, it's another matter entirely. Cricket would be less complicated if the national side just changed their name to what they actually represent - the United Kingdom.

Quoting Banco (Reply 19):
Scotland was not conquered. It was a free union of equals. In fact, biased towards Scotland. And this is the usual problem. People from afar look on as though Scotland was some form of English colony. That's bull.

 checkmark 

Quoting Moo (Reply 20):
on the 24th March 1603 the English crown passed to the Scottish King James VI who became the English King James I and who voluntarily kept the union of the countries despite being able to do otherwise.

But it was the Union of the Parliaments, in 1707, that brought about the situation we're discussing. Had we shared a monarch but kept separate parliaments, there would be no issue to discuss... especially after the Civil War, when the Crown lost so much power.

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 28):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 25):
like the Scots they pronounce the "R" with a rolling sound, dress weirdly and live in the hills

That is probably the finest summation of the Scottish people I think I've ever read.

Something like 50% of the population live in the Forth-Clyde valley and kilts were never worn much outside the Highlands. The English accuse us of "rolling" the "R" while we think they just don't pronounce it at all... except when it doesn't exist, e.g. between a word that ends in a vowel and one that starts eith a vowel, such as "That was Abba-r-and Waterloo".  Smile

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
I forgot to put a  wink  behind this sentence

Ah, OK.  Smile

Quoting Banco (Reply 41):
You should be concerned. If the English are sufficiently pissed off to cut off the flow of all that lovely money, you might not be laughing as much.

Yup. It would be funny if not for the possible consequences.  Smile

Scotland may be "dictated to" by Westminster but so are Northumberland, Cornwall, etc.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 41):
By the way, that "independent" Scotland (you know, the one with the Euro and bugger all power either in the EU or elsewhere), can wave goodbye to free higher education, free prescriptions, free residential care for the elderly, free eye tests, all those expensive drugs you get that the English don't.

Actually you get your NHS paid through your tax, we pay our governmental health insurance contributions, which are listed seperately. In the end it is more or less the same. Ok, our government charges us a small sum we have to pay to the doctor or chemist ourselves, but this was more intended to stop abuse of the system (people going to the doctor even if they were not sick just to have a day off because they didn't feel like working, if you have to pay ten Euros you'll think twice).
Same for residential care.
Concering tution fees for higher education, in Germany it dependes on which state you are living in, education is a state matter and they decide how to finance their universities.

Jan
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:24 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 46):
I really think England must have a devolved parliament.

Trouble is, no party will advocate it. But the ridiculous nature of the present position where every UK country has a Parliament, except the one that comprises 80% of the population, is unsustainable.

Quoting David L (Reply 46):
But that would be a bit unfair on the majority of Scots, who either don't want independence or just don't care.

Precisely. That's why I say the biggest threat to the union is the disgruntled English, pushing Scotland towards independence. The problem is that the system is so skewed, so manifestly unfair, that the separation of England and Scotland is being emphasised by the English. Now, picture the scene where the English elect a Conservative UK government who decide to cut all the subsidies Scotland has because it pleases their English constituents. How would that go down in Scotland? Not well, I suspect, and there you have your casus bellum.
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:46 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 44):
Er. It is. And so is Britain, by the way. .

Banco, I'm aware of Mr. Brown's heritage, but I'm also aware of Queen Elizabeth II's - just as you are.

Quoting Banco (Reply 44):
Yes. Stupid ones, involving rampant nationalism and an over reliance on Mel Gibson.

History has taught me not to dismiss "rampant nationalism", because as mindless as it may be at times it is also potentially explosive. I'm sure you'd agree that in-principle passive nationalistic support for an independent (and sustainable) Scotland is a reasonable aspiration.

Quoting Banco (Reply 48):
Trouble is, no party will advocate it.

Not yet.  Smile

QFF

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