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Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Wed Jul 04, 2007 8:59 pm

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 49):
History has taught me not to dismiss "rampant nationalism", because as mindless as it may be at times it is also potentially explosive

You really think that someone whose country includes Northern Ireland would be unaware of that?

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 49):
I'm sure you'd agree that in-principle passive nationalistic support for an independent (and sustainable) Scotland is a reasonable aspiration.

Depends. Are you now saying Scotland is a country?  Wink

More seriously, advocating a separate Shetland Islands is a reasonable position to take. People can do what they want, as long as they aren't violent. But just because people are entitled to take any view they want doesn't stop some of those views being stupid. If you ask most Scots, they'll tell you that belief in full independence for Scotland is a stupid position to take. And viewed from England, it's a mind-bogglingly stupid position. Hey, what do we care, if they want to go, they can go. But it's still stupid. And it's still very unlikely, because contrary to popular belief, the Scots aren't stupid.
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Thu Jul 05, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 50):
You really think that someone whose country includes Northern Ireland would be unaware of that?

I know you're aware of Northern Ireland, which is why I'm somewhat surprised that you're looking at the issue from a completely practical point of view. Self-determination isn't always a practical decision, it's often an emotional or nationalistic one. Emotions and nationalism are both significant factors which can't be dismissed, no matter how impractical their practical application may be.

Quoting Banco (Reply 50):
Depends. Are you now saying Scotland is a country?

No, I'm not saying that.  Wink

QFF
 
exFATboy
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:15 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:16 am

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 30):
Quoting Banco (Reply 29):
No. A republic isn't even remotely on the radar.
Really? Not even within the ranks of the SNP?

Being both part-Scots and part-English (as well as parts Dutch and Cherokee...lord, I'm a mutt), I've been following this for some time. Judging by the wording in theirr manifestos over the years, the SNP does have a republican streak, but the republican and monarchist factions have agreed to set the question aside for the moment. The last manifesto I read cover-to-cover (I believe it was from the last election for Westminster) promised a referendum on the question.

Quoting QANTASFOREVER (Reply 40):
Germans are the most inconsiderate people when it comes to hotel swimming pools.

Having lived in Florida at one point, I can attest to this....German tourists simply do not understand the "swimsuit coverage must increase with bodyfat percentage" rule. (Older Italian men are also bad about this.) When you see a German by the pool and you're not actually sure whether he's wearing a Speedo or not because his stomach hangs entirely over that area, it's a scary moment.  Silly

I oppose Scottish independence, as Union has worked well for both parties...most of the Scots that I know sum up their feelings like this: "Scotland is my country, the United Kingdom is my nation" and believe in both. And - with a few more constitutional adjustments to solve the Midlothian Question once and for all - that seems to be perfectly sustainable.

Also, as a purely practical matter, I oppose it because so far no one has presented a model for it that doesn't involve Scotland having to cozy up to the EU to the point where Scotland would be less free to determine its own laws and ways than is now. A Scotland that's part of the United Kingdom is part of the 4th largest economy in the world, and part of a nation-state that always has the option, should the EU go once more down the road to the "superstate", of simply saying "no thanks" and withdrawing. An "independent" Scotland would not have that option, at least not without consigning themselves to economic self-destruction.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:31 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 52):
A Scotland that's part of the United Kingdom is part of the 4th largest economy in the world, and part of a nation-state that always has the option, should the EU go once more down the road to the "superstate", of simply saying "no thanks" and withdrawing. An "independent" Scotland would not have that option, at least not without consigning themselves to economic self-destruction.

You shouldn't kid yourself - the days of unlimited cherry-picking for Britain are nearing their end anyway; The new rules according to the recently approved constitution (which is now just not named "constitution"  Yeah sure ) will conceivably lead to the core nations progressing faster than the likes of Britain or (at least for now) Poland, with the benefits increasingly restricted to those who actually participate and the rest increasingly left behind.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Thu Jul 05, 2007 1:44 am

Quoting ExFATboy (Reply 52):
I oppose it because so far no one has presented a model for it that doesn't involve Scotland having to cozy up to the EU to the point where Scotland would be less free to determine its own laws and ways than is now.

This also goes for other "countries" with independence aspirations in Europe (e.g. Scotland, the Basque Country, Catalunia and BTW Bavaria). They would have about the same political clout as Luxemburg would have, if they didn't have the money. As part of a bigger organisation they'll have much more influence (and AFAIK the Scottish oil and gas fields have reached their peak a few years ago).

Jan
 
gkirk
Topic Author
Posts: 23455
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Thu Jul 05, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 41):
You should be concerned. If the English are sufficiently pissed off to cut off the flow of all that lovely money, you might not be laughing as much.

Well, we'll take all of the oil and gas money that you English sods are stealing from us then.  Yeah sure

Quoting Banco (Reply 44):
gets whacking great subsidies from England,

Aye right...

Banco, you really need to remove that chip from yer shoulder  Wink  duck 

Anyway, for the time being, there's more serious matters to be dealt with...
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Thu Jul 05, 2007 4:32 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 55):
Well, we'll take all of the oil and gas money that you English sods are stealing from us then.

That would be the oil and gas that's split between English and Scottish waters,
would it?

You get it back and far more. The only reason it seems a lot of money now is because oil is so expensive.
 
Bongodog1964
Posts: 3542
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 6:29 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Thu Jul 05, 2007 8:35 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 41):
Why? You've never come up with a single decent reason. By the way, that "independent" Scotland (you know, the one with the Euro and bugger all power either in the EU or elsewhere), can wave goodbye to free higher education, free prescriptions, free residential care for the elderly, free eye tests, all those expensive drugs you get that the English don't.

I get the impression the the SNP look over the water at Eire, and trust that as an independent small nation they will receive, the huge sum in grants thet Eire has had over the past 20 years
 
dsa
Posts: 679
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:22 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Thu Jul 05, 2007 9:23 pm

Scotland is nowhere near ready for independence, the SNP needs to concentrate on improving the region itself before it can even consider independence. You only have to look at the stagnant economy, violent crime and increasing number of people flocking south of the border to know that its not yet ready. I as you may have guessed am a Unionist and I always will be because I believe in the United Kingdom and all the benefits it has brought to England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The SNP is a Socialist party and as far as I'm aware supports the EU, and with the current direction of the EU and its obsession with a superstate Scotland would no doubt gain independence only to have it snatched away.

Long live the United Kingdom!

DSA
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Thu Jul 05, 2007 11:07 pm

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 57):
Quoting Banco (Reply 41):
Why? You've never come up with a single decent reason. By the way, that "independent" Scotland (you know, the one with the Euro and bugger all power either in the EU or elsewhere), can wave goodbye to free higher education, free prescriptions, free residential care for the elderly, free eye tests, all those expensive drugs you get that the English don't.

I get the impression the the SNP look over the water at Eire, and trust that as an independent small nation they will receive, the huge sum in grants thet Eire has had over the past 20 years

Only if Scottland joins the EU, which will take time, and by 2014 the new voting rules in the EU (no more veto power, but double concensus, 65% of the EU population and 65% of the country's votes required) will be in place. Gues where Scotland will be in this category. Also, Scotland WILL have to join the Eurozone, the option of opting out only existed for those countries which were EU members BEFORE the Euro was introduced.
While I think that being a member of a big organisation like the EU makes it necessary to look back at local traditions and cultures (even on village level, e.g. the village I'm living in had their heritage days last weekend, with a parade showing rural life in the Hunsrueck hills 100 years ago), I think politically and economically splitting up into smaller entities makes no sense. The only countries in Europe, which are surviving while being small, are those which had a history of being tax havens. This option also does not exist for new EU members.

Jan
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Fri Jul 06, 2007 10:38 pm

Quoting Dsa (Reply 58):
You only have to look at the stagnant economy

But the nationalists will claim they can fix that.  Smile

Quoting Dsa (Reply 58):
increasing number of people flocking south of the border

I don't know what the statistics are but there seem to be a heck of a lot of English people in Edinburgh.
 
gkirk
Topic Author
Posts: 23455
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting Dsa (Reply 58):
Long live the United Kingdom!

 Yeah sure

I wish you English people would start frigging feeling good about yerselves and not hold onto this UK thing...the sooner English people think of themselves as English and not as British, the better. That's the biggest thing that annoys me about English people, they ain't passionate enough about their country...
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Fri Jul 06, 2007 11:55 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 61):
That's the biggest thing that annoys me about English people, they ain't passionate enough about their country...

Come on, now - never seen English football supporters?.  Smile

You can have both, in the same way that people from Edinburgh dislike Weegies (and vice versa) but still feel "passionately" about Scotland. And in the same way that I'm proud to be Scottish (barring the politics) and British.

In any case, a lot of people in England (and some in Scotland) do regard the UK as their country. I don't see what's to be gained by forcing them to chose a smaller subset of it.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Sat Jul 07, 2007 4:58 am

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 61):


You're dream isn't any different from those Quebec separatist or "Canadian republic" fantasies. It's proof that nationalism can take precedent over common sense.

[Edited 2007-07-06 21:59:35]
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:05 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 62):
You can have both, in the same way that people from Edinburgh dislike Weegies (and vice versa) but still feel "passionately" about Scotland. And in the same way that I'm proud to be Scottish (barring the politics) and British.

Exactly. Something Graham seems to find hard to comprehend. Yes, I'm English, but I'm British as well, and extremely happy with both.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:48 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 62):
In any case, a lot of people in England (and some in Scotland) do regard the UK as their country. I don't see what's to be gained by forcing them to chose a smaller subset of it.

Not to mention those of us who regard the EU as their country (though we are often not happy how the actual political setup has been done).

Jan
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:25 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 63):
You're dream isn't any different from those Quebec separatist or "Canadian republic" fantasies.

I would hesitate to compare the republican movements of Canada with those of Scotland. Vastly different reasoning and arguments there.

QFF
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Sat Jul 07, 2007 8:43 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 66):
Quoting TheCol (Reply 63):
You're dream isn't any different from those Quebec separatist or "Canadian republic" fantasies.

I would hesitate to compare the republican movements of Canada with those of Scotland. Vastly different reasoning and arguments there.

QFF

Ok, but what about the Quebec nationalists, with an ideology based on language?

Jan
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:02 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 67):
Ok, but what about the Quebec nationalists, with an ideology based on language?

And that's an issue once more removed from Scottish independence. I don't speak for Canadians, so I won't comment on the merits of an independent Quebec - but I'll just repeat that the debate over Canada's constitutional status is an entirely different one from devolution and an independent Scotland. For one, Canada IS already independent.

QFF
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Sat Jul 07, 2007 9:10 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 68):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 67):
Ok, but what about the Quebec nationalists, with an ideology based on language?

And that's an issue once more removed from Scottish independence. I don't speak for Canadians, so I won't comment on the merits of an independent Quebec - but I'll just repeat that the debate over Canada's constitutional status is an entirely different one from devolution and an independent Scotland. For one, Canada IS already independent.

QFF

Sure, but I'm speaking about a French-speaking Quebec independent from majority English-speaking Canada, based alone on history (French clonialisation versus British colonialisation 2-300 years ago). Would e.g. an independent Quebec be economically viable? I'm not a specialist on Canada, but I think there are many similarities, with the driving force of the Scottish (and also the Basque and Catalan) nationalist movements acting mostly based on the fact that their countries (or today provinces) used to be independent kingdoms centuries ago.

Jan
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5791
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:17 am

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 69):
Would e.g. an independent Quebec be economically viable?

I'm neither a Canadian economist nor an economist specialising in Canadian provincial economies. I simply cannot say.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 69):
I'm not a specialist on Canada, but I think there are many similarities

Somewhat true.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 69):
with the driving force of the Scottish (and also the Basque and Catalan) nationalist movements acting mostly based on the fact that their countries (or today provinces) used to be independent kingdoms centuries ago.

Quebec was never a Kingdom. It does have a long european history, but the complexities associated with the development of the Canadian Dominion, as well as the impact of the relative geographic distance from Europe complicate the matter, making any sort of direct parallel between the Scottish and Quebecois republican movements negligible. In general terms there are perhaps some tonal similarities - but I wouldn't press it further.

My original objection was to a suggestion that Canadian republicanism can be likened to the Scottish independence movement.

QFF
 
exFATboy
Posts: 1887
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 11:15 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Sun Jul 08, 2007 12:15 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 69):
Would e.g. an independent Quebec be economically viable?

This would depend on large part on:

*The terms of secession, particularly:
(1) whether independent Quebec takes on a share of Canada's public debt based on a pro-rata split, value of Federal assets within Quebec, etc., and
(2) Whether the new Quebec had to give up any territory, particularly any resource-rich areas of the North, Anglophone areas of Montreal (which, in turn, might not be economically viable outside Quebec), or the Hull region, where polls have suggested that the residents might choose to split from Quebec and remain within Canada, in no small part due to Federal employment. Chretien said, to broad agreement outside Quebec, that "if Canada is divisible, then Quebec is divisable," particulary the First Nations lands, which were not part of pre-British Quebec. If the First Nations voted to remain in Canada (as polls suggest most of them would), Canada would be obliged to enforce their rights.

* Whether or not the new Quebec became part of NAFTA

* Whether or not the new Quebec retained the Canadian dollar, or instituted their own, potentially less stable, currency.

One of the reasons support for independence has softened since the last referendum is that the position of the rest of Canada has hardened on these issues - in the run-up to that vote, the "soverignist" forces made it sound as if an independent Quebec would automatically accede to NAFTA, would be able to use the Canadian dollar, would take on no additional debt...hell, they even said Quebecois would retain Canadian passports. (Of course, they weren't being entirely honest on whether they were going to declare independence , but that's another story.) Well, all three existing members of NAFTA have to agree to new members, and there's no provision for seceded areas of existing members to automatically be in - and, if for no other reason than pure spite, Canada might block Quebec's entry.

There's a lot of variables here, and it's impossible to say how well an independent Quebec would fare. I would hazard a guess that, in the long run, it would be viable in the sense that its citizens would have an economy that affords them a decent standard of living. In the short run, there could be a lot of economic dislocation, especially if Canada blocked their entry into NAFTA.

I do think a truly independent Scotland - independent of both the UK and the EU - would be a poor country. And since the SNP is very pro-EU, I think it's safe to conclude they agree. My fear is that an "independent" Scotland within the EU would not fare much better, in that it would have to adopt the euro (no flexibility of interest rates), and without transfer payments from the rest of the UK would have to have either very high taxes or a sudden, wrenching adjustment to a lower-service government.
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:14 pm

Quoting QANTASforever (Reply 68):
For one, Canada IS already independent.

And Britain isn't?
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 72):
For one, Canada IS already independent.

And Britain isn't?

No, you are not! You are in the EU! Muawahahaha! (German evil laugh)
:D

Jan
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Scottish Parliament Opened By Queen

Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:42 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 73):
No, you are not! You are in the EU! Muawahahaha! (German evil laugh)

 rotfl   devil 

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