ag92
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Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:28 pm

What are your views on the Death Penalty.

Personally I feel that there should be none, because if one day by a miracle they manage to find some evidence that he didnt do it, then he/she would be dead and nothing can be done.

And I feel that killing someone because they did harm to the comminity is alot to suffer.

Regards
Ag92
 
ShyFlyer
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:34 pm

Personally, I'm conflicted.

One one hand, I think that people found guilty of some crimes just don't desirve to continue to live on the taxpayer dime (i.e. murderers). On the other, the death penalty really hasn't done much to deter such crimes.

Further, as a Christian, I'm not so sure God has given us the right to determine who lives or dies, even if they have committed a horrendous crime.

 confused 
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kiwiinoz
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:35 pm

In general I am against it. Whether the person is innocent or not, it is difficult to justify the merit in taking a life. Revenge, deterrent, preferable to letting them rot in jail etc....whilst they are easy rationale to cite in a state of outrage, to have the state perform a clinical killing to achieve any of these goals does not sit well with me.

Contrary to this, I have heard of cases where I feel that the perpetrator deserves death, (eg particularly violent murders/sexual assaults etc). But that is an overly emotive response and I guess justice needs to be balanced and rational as opposed to emotional and reactive.

I notice you live in Singapore....always an interesting topic of discussion there. Anything in particular cause you to raise the issue, (you will find many previous threads on this)
 
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ManuCH
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:45 pm



This thread will turn into a flamefest in 3... 2... 1...
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FlyingTexan
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:55 pm

When was the last time we executed a rich white person?
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FlyUSCG
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:12 pm

I'm for it for all murders (pre-meditated, intentional, etc...) and those really heinous crimes. I dont care if it deterrs crime or not. It's meant to punish the criminal in a manner proportionate to their crime. If you kill someone, we kill you. Simple as that. Why should you get the luxury of living out the rest of your life?
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CO7e7
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 1):
Personally, I'm conflicted.

Same here....
 
baroque
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:29 pm

Quoting Ag92 (Thread starter):
if one day by a miracle t

I guess miracles come quite commonly in India, because conviction of persons later found to be innocent are far from rare. But I do see your point. The person found innocent feels it is a miracle. Although there is a recent case of a couple being found guilty and the woman was found innocent after her partner (equally innocent and for more or less the same reasons) had been executed.

I do concede that with the current crop of persons jailed for so-called terrorist acts, we have a different problem. Most persons who kill do in circumstances that will probably not recur (mass murderers excepted). However, these guys manufacture the circumstances of their intended or actual crimes. They might see the light after a few years in jail and they might not. Even so, executing them will not help. Especially if you execute some innocent ones - as seems highly likely given the track record of justice systems.
 
ZakHH
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 3:47 pm

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 1):
Further, as a Christian, I'm not so sure God has given us the right to determine who lives or dies

Why are you only "not sure"? What makes you doubt?
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JGPH1A
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:01 pm

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 4):
When was the last time we executed a rich white person?

Come to think of it, when was the first time ?

I oppose the death penalty, on the grounds that you can never be 100% certain that an innocent person won't ever be executed. While some crimes are so awful that the instinctive reaction is that the perpetrator deserves to die (and in some cases they do), unless human justice becomes infallible, we don't have the right to impose this ultimate sanction.
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Springbok747
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:11 pm

I'm for it, in cases of premeditated murder, child murders and other heinous crimes (serial killings, terrorists). People who intentionally kill others should not be allowed to have the luxury of life themselves. Period.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 7):
They might see the light after a few years in jail and they might not.

Lately everyone seems to be seeing the light, but that still doesn't spare them from the fact that they intentionally killed someone. They should pay for their crimes.
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dw9115
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:12 pm

"Elijah Page died from lethal injection at 10:11 p.m. Wednesday, the first person executed in South Dakota in 60 years. With an undisclosed number of witnesses looking on, the 25-year-old Athens, Texas, man died after being administered a lethal combination of three drugs at the state penitentiary in Sioux Falls. Asked before the execution by Warden Doug Weber if he had any last statement, Page said, "No." When Weber asked Page to confirm that he had nothing to say, witnesses said the inmate firmly responded, "Yes, no last words." Page, dressed in an orange prison jumpsuit, was moved from his holding cell at 9:40 p.m., placed on the table in the execution chamber at 9:41 p.m., and put into restraints at 9:43 pm. Leather straps were secured across his chest, midsection and feet, witnesses said. A sheet covered the lower half of his body. Once Page was strapped to the table, intravenous lines were placed into each of his arms during the next six minutes. The witnesses then entered the viewing room at 9:51 p.m., and after Page declined to comment, the drugs began flowing at 10:02 p.m., administered by two people trained to carry out the injections. Their identities were not released. Carson Walker of The Associated Press, one of two reporters to witness the execution, said after Page declined to comment, it was just seconds before the drugs began having an effect. The inmate first received sodium pentothal through one of the IV lines to render him unconscious. He then was given pancuronium bromide to stop his breathing and potassium chloride to stop his heart. "It was just a matter of seconds. ... and we didn't see anything or hear anything," Walker said. "The next thing we heard were several gasps, almost like a snoring. His chest heaved three times." Bill Harlan, a reporter for the Rapid City Journal who also witnessed the execution, said once the drugs were started, there was 10 to 15 seconds of breathing on Page's part, then silence. "There was no movement," Harlan said. Walker added that from 10:02 until Page's death was announced at 10:11 p.m., "nothing happened." The inmate's eyes were closed and within minutes, his skin started to turn color, the two reporters said. At Weber's direction, an emergency medical technician then checked Page's body and said: "I have no breathing. I have no heartbeat. The time is 10:11." Minnehaha County Coroner Dr. Brad Randall said the official pronouncement of Page's death was made by the prison EMT because American Medical Association ethics rules prohibit doctors such as himself from actively participating in an execution. Randall did certify the death, however. Following the execution, Page's body was taken to the morgue at Sanford USD Medical Center. An autopsy was planned for this morning, which Randall said is standard procedure for any inmate who dies in prison. The ultimate destination of Page's body was unknown early today. "The disposition of the body after the autopsy, I do not know at this point," Randall said. Among the witnesses to Page's death was Dottie Poage, mother of murder victim Chester Allan Poage. Page was put to death for his role in the March 13, 2000, murder of Poage in Higgins Gulch outside of Spearfish. "Elijah Page had the ultimate penalty for the ultimate crime, and for that I'm proud of the state, the attorney general, the governor and everyone at the state penitentiary for doing a job well done," Dottie Poage said afterward. "I'm proud to be an American." Attorney General Larry Long witnessed the execution, as did Lawrence County State's Attorney John Fitzgerald, who prosecuted Page and insisted on the death penalty. "His debt to the state of South Dakota is now paid in full," Fitzgerald said. Lawrence County Sheriff Richard Mowell, who watched the execution as well, said the death penalty was the appropriate penalty for what he called "a brutal, torturous murder." "I can assure you that Elijah Page had a much quieter, quicker and apparently painless death," Mowell said. "But I can assure you he will never be able to do this again." A full list of witnesses must be filed in Lawrence County and thus available to the public within 10 days, though it could come sooner, spokesman Michael Winder of the state Department of Corrections said. Page's lawyer, Mike Butler of Sioux Falls, attended the execution as well and said he had phone numbers for Rounds and Supreme Court Chief Justice David Gilbertson in case Page asked to stop the execution, even up to the time the drugs were to be administered, though he didn't have to follow through. Page was the 15th person executed in South Dakota since 1877. The last man executed, George Sitts, was electrocuted on April 8, 1947. Outside the prison, protesters showed up throughout the day, and by 10 p.m., there were 100 people opposing the death penalty and 10 supporting it. Page, who had given up his appeals and had asked to die, was put in a holding cell just down the hall from the death chamber several days ago. He was under constant guard since being transferred, and his last visit with friends and family was at 4 p.m. Butler had access to Page until one hour before the execution. Page requested a last meal - served about four hours before his execution - of steak, jalapeno poppers with cream sauce, onion rings, and a salad with cherry tomatoes, ham chunks, shredded cheese, bacon bits, and blue cheese and ranch dressing. He wanted lemon iced tea and coffee to drink and ice cream for dessert. His father, Kenneth Chapman, said before the execution that he visited his son every day for the past week at the penitentiary and told him he loved him. According to Chapman, his son was remorseful. "He wants everybody to know he feels bad for what happened. He's not a cold-hearted person like they're making him out to be," Chapman said. Page, Briley Piper and Darrell Hoadley were convicted of stabbing and kicking Poage, bashing him with large rocks and forcing him to drink hydrochloric acid. The torture lasted two to three hours. Hoadley received life in prison. Briley also was sentenced to die and now sits on death row with Charles Rhines and Donald Moeller. Page's execution apparently had been scheduled for weeks to be at 10 p.m. Tuesday. But Rounds' spokesman, Mitch Krebs, confirmed Wednesday that the governor delayed it 24 hours out of respect for the family of Staff Sgt. Robb Rolfing, killed June 30 in Baghdad and buried Tuesday at Woodlawn Cemetery in Sioux Falls. "The governor had a conversation with the Rolfings and came to the conclusion that it (Tuesday) was Robb's day," Krebs said. It was the second delay in the execution. The governor postponed Page's planned Aug. 29, 2006, execution because of concerns that a 1984 state law requiring the use of two drugs for lethal injection could put prison officials at legal risk if they instead administered a three-drug combination that now is considered standard. State lawmakers amended the law the last legislative session to allow prison officials to use whatever lethal injection mixture they choose. Of the 38 states that have death penalty statutes since capital punishment was reinstated in 1976, only four now have not executed anybody, according to the Death Penalty Information Center, a nonprofit organization based in Washington, D.C. Those states are Kansas, New Hampshire, New Jersey and New York."
 
NIKV69
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:20 pm

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 4):
When was the last time we executed a rich white person?

What a foolish statement.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 9):
on the grounds that you can never be 100% certain that an innocent person won't ever be executed.

Ever hear of the appeal process?
Nikon from day one, Nikon till I die.
 
Andreas
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:32 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 12):
Ever hear of the appeal process?

And THEN you feel 100% certain??

Wow...let me answer by quoting you:

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 12):
What a foolish statement.
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RobertNL070
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:51 pm

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 11):

I see quotation marks. Source? And maybe you could chop your epistle into paragraphs to make it readable.

Robert
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SQ948
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:13 pm

I am completely against it.

I do not see any benefit of the death penalty. It's neither cheaper than life imprisonment (well, that argument is inhuman anyway) nor does it have any influence on the crime rate.
 
ag92
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:23 pm

Quoting KiwiinOz (Reply 2):
I notice you live in Singapore....always an interesting topic of discussion there. Anything in particular cause you to raise the issue, (you will find many previous threads on this)

In school we generally have these sort of forums where we discuss issues such as these. I was wondering what the opinion of you guys were.

I did search Death Penalty but didn't find one in the recent past. Sorry if it has been posted in the recent past  ashamed 

Regards
Ag92
 
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ManuCH
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:35 pm

Quoting Ag92 (Reply 16):
I did search Death Penalty but didn't find one in the recent past. Sorry if it has been posted in the recent past

Oh, don't worry, my post wasn't intended in a negative way ... I'm not sure if it has been discussed "recently" (I think a few months have passed already), but whenever these topics come up, there are 2 very opposite views of the issue, and after a while, things might get personal and/or off-topic. Hopefully it'll remain civilized this time, because it's actually a very interesting topic.

My view on it? I'm honestly not sure.

My arguments pro death penalty:
- the criminal gets what he deserves (according to the human "get even" principle)

My arguments against death penalty:
- there might be legal errors which are never found out, not even during the appeal process
- I'm not sure the "get even" principle should be applied in law
- we don't have the right to decide when someone has to die, based on what he did

Therefore I remain undecided.
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Arniepie
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:56 pm

I'm not for it for the simple reason that it serves no other purpose but revenge and that's not a good enough reason IMHO.

What strikes me most is that those advocating the death penalty vigorously in the US are almost always very devoted Christians and conservatives that don't seem to realize that the death penalty goes directly against one of their most holy commandments namely; "you shell not kill", it is one of the 10 commandments (which are practised by all 3 big religions BTW) given to you directly by GOD and therefor not ambiguous or in any other way open for debate.
[edit post]
 
aloges
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:02 pm

I can imagine one circumstance under which I could live with someone being sentenced to death: if the person asks for it, rather than lifelong imprisonment. People should be able to do what they want with their own lives, even to this extreme.

Other than that, the death penalty is on the very same level as lynch law. Justice does not mean getting "even" with people unless one applies medieval ideas and principles; I should think we are well past those nowadays.
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JGPH1A
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:03 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 12):
Ever hear of the appeal process?

Human justice is fallible. End of story. It should NEVER be too late to undo a miscarriage of justice.

Look at the guy accused of the Lockerbie bombing - a terrible crime, absolutely unforgiveable right ? If the US had tried him and found him guilty on the basis of the evidence presented, he'd have been executed, no question. Now, it appears, he has grounds for an appeal, 10 years or whatever afterwards - what now ? There may now be grounds for reasonable doubt, who knows - the appeal will decide. If (and it's a big if) it turns out he didn't actually do it, at least he's not dead.
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NIKV69
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting SQ948 (Reply 15):
I do not see any benefit of the death penalty. It's neither cheaper than life imprisonment (well, that argument is inhuman anyway) nor does it have any influence on the crime rate.

Then why is places like Singapore is the crime rate so low? Because all drug, rape and murder crimes get death. End of story.
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Halcyon
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 7:58 pm

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 18):

Right, do I smell a wee bit of bias?  Wink The Bible shows that murder is wrong, but the death penalty imposed by a government is sanctioned. It's not good to have vigilantes running amok, of course.

Also, Christians are subject to the government to a point, and the government is allowed to make its own rules. In any case, the death penalty was allowed and has never been revoked in the Bible, so it's certainly not as cut and dry as you make it to seem, although the point can be debated.

As far as my personal beliefs go...some people do not deserve to live. There was a thread a bit ago about some punk beating a random passerby to death (With a baseball bat I believe.) without a cause and being caught on camera, IIRC. In cases like this, where the proof is so solid and the crime so heinous and random, I have no person with the person being swiftly put away. Just my  twocents  .
 
aloges
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:03 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 21):
Then why is places like Singapore is the crime rate so low? Because all drug, rape and murder crimes get death. End of story.

Cute... "end of story".  Silly I urge everyone not to counter this post, it's meritless.  Wink

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 22):
the death penalty was allowed and has never been revoked in the Bible

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" anyone? I can never help but notice how so many Christians forget about this lesson taught by Christ himself... and I'm not even actively religious!

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 22):
As far as my personal beliefs go...some people do not deserve to live.

Who are men to decide who deserves life and who does not? Isn't that about the most divine decision that can be made?
Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened.
 
Arniepie
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:22 pm

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 22):
the death penalty was allowed and has never been revoked in the Bible, so it's certainly not as cut and dry as you make it to seem, although the point can be debated.

It sure can be debated.
If the Bible allows the death penalty than it is a book of lies because its fundamentals (which are definately the 10 commandments) are NOT open for debate, they are absolute and everyone should act upon them.
Personally I'm not in any way a religious person but that doesn't mean I know nothing about religion.
What strikes me as odd is that those who claim to have God on their side because they follow any given religion always seem to know exactly what God meant when he commanded something and how it should be interpreted and when there are exceptions to the rule.
[edit post]
 
miamiair
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:25 pm

If the crime is heinous, the guilt is absolute, then the death penalty is justified, IMO.

Edited for spelling

[Edited 2007-07-12 13:26:40]
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ag92
Topic Author
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:39 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 21):
Then why is places like Singapore is the crime rate so low

Because of the harsh penalties imposed on any event. For example IIRC the penalty of file sharing is like a maximum S$20,000 dollar fine and/or 10 years in prison.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 23):
I urge everyone not to counter this post, it's meritless

I had to reply, I dont want people to think that because of rape etc the crime rate is low. Its due to many different factors.

Again IIRC, my teachers were telling me like 1 - 5 person(s) get killed every day due to the death penalty, not once in 60 years like S. Dakota

Regards
Ag92
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:57 pm

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 1):
people found guilty of some crimes just don't desirve

the question is NOT what the culprits might deserve, but what is good for the country, the population, in general. There of course are culprits who might "deserve" to get executed four times, but such should not be the basis of considerations.
-

Quoting FlyUSCG (Reply 5):
I'm for it for all murders (pre-meditated, intentional, etc...) and those really heinous crimes.

-
Nobody considers the death penalty for pocket-thieves, so that you are in favour of it
-
 
frequentflyer
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:00 pm

Quoting ShyFlyer (Reply 1):
Further, as a Christian, I'm not so sure God has given us the right to determine who lives or dies, even if they have committed a horrendous crime.

Same here. At times my gut tells me Yes, but we are not God so...

On the other hand, I would advocate harsher regimen for the cruelest individuals. If they are given the chance to keep on living, then make sure they redeem themselves and they expiate their wrongs in a tougher way.
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vc10
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:03 pm

I am against the death penalty for the "never sure" reason as many have already expressed, but if a crime would have warranted the death penalty then the person should be given life imprisonment with hard labour, and should this be mind numming then so be it.

Obviously the labour regime must not be inhuman, but should be hard, and if in the future the person is found innocent then they can be compensated for their imprisonment.

littlevc10
 
FlyingTexan
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:43 am

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 12):
Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 4):
When was the last time we executed a rich white person?

What a foolish statement.

That statement is reality rhetoric, not foolish.
"Wouldn't your boss like to fly home nonstop at 4:30 on a Friday afternoon?" -Airline Exec to Congressional Staffer
 
stlgph
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:57 am

I've no problems with the death penalty.

However, I do.

So, someone walks in to a house, brutually tortures and axe murders someone to death ... say over the course of 3 hours, hella pain, gruesome, brutal, etc. Person goes to trial, is found guilty. Hangs out in prison. Health care, writes letters, does this, does that, heads down death row, gets a last lobster dinner, says goodbye to family and friends where the murder victims weren't able to enjoy a last lobster dinner or say goodbye to their family and friends, lays down on a strap gurney, an IV is carefully inserted as to not cause "pain or discomfort," and then they slowly go into unconciousness and then their heart stops and they peacefully die.

Flippin' spare me.

They should be bound, gagged, tortured, and locked in a sterile cement blocked room and made to suffer for as long as possible.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
USCGC130
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:10 am

Quoting Ag92 (Thread starter):
What are your views on the Death Penalty.

Strap 'em and zap 'em, and then stack 'em like cordwood! Stick 'em and bag 'em! Put 'em to sleep like the dogs they are!

Er......sorry.

Seriously, I'm all for it. Opponents of capital punishment insist that:

o It isn't a deterrent.

It doesn't have to be a deterrent. It's first and foremost a punishment; that's why it's called the death *penalty* and not the death *deterrent.* Any deterrent effect is icing on the proverbial cake.

o If killing is wrong, then it's wrong for the government to engage in it, too.

It isn't killing that's wrong; it's *murder* that's wrong. Murder is defined as the unlawful taking of human life, usually with malice aforethought. Capital punishment, by definition, is not unlawful. (And as an aside, meat is obviously not "murder.")

o The death penalty (as opposed to incarceration for life) might be used for political reasons.

Like what, for instance? Pandering to prevailing opinion? Sounds to me like democracy in action to me.

o The wrong person might be executed.

I find this to be the most compelling argument against capital punishment. Then again, we can't let it stand in the way of justice being done. It's society's responsibility to do all it can to ensure that no one is executed by mistake, and that's exactly what's done -- and at considerable expense.

I'd find this objection more convincing if it didn't seem to be an afterthought with so many opponents of capital punishment. It's obviously the last reason they think of, an "Oh, yeah, and..." sort of thing.

I seem to recall reading someplace that despite all the investigations by foes of capital punishment, not a single instance of mistaken execution has ever been uncovered in the U.S. Anybody have any information on this, either pro or con?

Oh, and Dw9115: paragraphs are a *good* thing. They enhance both readability and credibility. Please consider writing in paragraph form.
 
don81603
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:14 am

In a case where there in incontrovertible evidence showing murder (security video, police dash camera video, etc), then yes. Anything else, no. Eye witnesses are iffy at best, forensics can only go so far, and circumstantial evidence,is open to interpretation. Add all 3 together, and you can get to about 99.999% sure of what happened, but that's still not enough. As the old saying goes, better to err on the side of caution.

On a side note, I still think the state of our prison system needs a serious overhaul. The inmates live better lives than we do for the most part. Cable TV, 3 squares a day, air conditioned comfort. They're becoming more like luxury hotels (less the freedom to wander around) than correctional facilities.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
 
dw9115
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting RobertNL070 (Reply 14):
I see quotation marks. Source?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19720781/

Quoting USCGC130 (Reply 32):
paragraphs are a *good* thing. They enhance both readability and credibility.

what ever some people just have to nit pick everything.
 
USCGC130
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 2:54 am

Quoting Dw9115 (Reply 34):
what ever some people just have to nit pick everything.

It isn't a nit. A long, unbroken screed is not only tedious to read, it comes across like the rantings of a crazy person.
 
N231YE
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:32 am

For it, with limitations. For the single murderer, or other crime, yeah, its open for debate.

For those who rape, torture, then kill children; for those that kill randomly; for those that kill a large amount of people (i.e., serial killer), the hell with them.

Of course, I'd love to see more DNA tests and better things in place to reduce the amount of wrongful imprisonments and death penalty fates. However, for those where the evidence (and witnesses) is damning:

I don't care about the "who gives one the right to take another's life" argument, as this can be directed back , "Who gave this criminal the right to take someone's life." In addition, with U.S. prisons filling up, and tax dollars going to keep these people alive...I'd much rather spend tax money on the homeless and needy than a messenger of Satin (in that sense).

I bet most of the anti-capital punishment crowd would change their mind if someone murdered their own loved one(s).

[Edited 2007-07-12 20:43:53]
 
Halcyon
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:47 pm

RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting Aloges (Reply 23):
and I'm not even actively religious!

And it shows. You have a clear misunderstanding of the Bible.

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 24):
If the Bible allows the death penalty than it is a book of lies because its fundamentals (which are definately the 10 commandments) are NOT open for debate, they are absolute and everyone should act upon them.

Incorrect again. There is a difference between murdering a person because you are evil and executing a person because they are harmful to society. The latter is only allowed when it is decided by society that the person would cause harm if allowed to live. That's still sanctioned, though. And, if it's not clear to you, I am allowed to feel that a person should not live. I'm NOT allowed to go out and SLAY someone because I feel he should not live. The Bible has put in a clear difference that isn't hard to understand.
 
LHMark
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 3:44 am

My view is this: The death penalty does not work as a deterrent. The lion's share of people who commit capital murder figure they won't be caught, or don't think of it at all, being too impulsive, high, or mentally incapable of considering it the way a rational person would. At any rate, states with the death penalty still have high murder rates.

My other problem with it is that we have to rely on the infallibility and integrity of the justice system to ensure it's properly carried out. We've seen enough cases of people exonerated by DNA evidence to show that the system is not infallible, and the fact that a notable amount of prisoners are being exonerated by DNA evidence suggests a certain lack of integrity, or at least rampant legal corner-cutting, in the system. I don't trust that it's fair and honest, and I don't think people should pay for a quick and easy trial with their lives.

The one point I can make for the death penalty is that it removes really bad people from among us. But I think its detriments are greater than its benefits.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1445
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:00 pm

RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 37):
Incorrect again. There is a difference between murdering a person because you are evil and executing a person because they are harmful to society. The latter is only allowed when it is decided by society that the person would cause harm if allowed to live.

Quote me that part out of the bible (not saying it is not in the book) and you immediately have proof that the book is not true towards its own believes.
According to the Old testament (which is a fundamental part in all 3 mayor religions) God did not say to Mozes when he was on the mountain;
"Thy shell not kill, except rapers, murderers,other type of criminals".
He was pretty clear and straightforward about it and made no exceptions.

Also the part where you state:

Quoting Halcyon (Reply 37):
The latter is only allowed when it is decided by society that the person would cause harm if allowed to live

makes the whole issue of the death penalty clear to Christians, it is proven that the death penalty as such has no positive effect on society and does not create any added safety whatsoever and therefor it should not be used.
[edit post]
 
Halcyon
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:47 pm

RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:36 am

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 39):

Quote me that part out of the bible (not saying it is not in the book) and you immediately have proof that the book is not true towards its own believes

About governments and their allowance to punish:

Romans 13:1-5.

"1: Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2: Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3: For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5: Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake."

The OT is very different from the NT. However, for an OT scripture:
Genesis 9:6


"Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed; for in the image of God has God made man."

About vendettas:

“You shall not take vengeance, nor bear any grudge against the sons of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself; I am the LORD” Lev. 19:18

So governments are ordained to do so, but personal vendettas are not allowed. Hope this helps, and I'm not trying to be a self-righteous snot or anything.

The 10 C were personal commandments for us to practice in line with Lev...personal issues are not to be dealt with by ourselves, but with a justice system. Now, it's my birthday and I am outta here! Hope that helped enough for now.  Smile

Cheers,
Lucas
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 30050
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:05 am

Quoting Ag92 (Thread starter):
Personally I feel that there should be none, because if one day by a miracle they manage to find some evidence that he didnt do it, then he/she would be dead and nothing can be done.

"Unless proven guilty,considered Innocent " Is the Magic words.
regds
MEL
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
Yellowstone
Posts: 2821
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 3:32 am

RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting ArniePie (Reply 39):
According to the Old testament (which is a fundamental part in all 3 mayor religions) God did not say to Mozes when he was on the mountain;
"Thy shell not kill, except rapers, murderers,other type of criminals".
He was pretty clear and straightforward about it and made no exceptions.

The Israelites were never terribly good at following all the commandments, as a cursory reading of the Bible will show. They were especially bad at the "thou shalt not kill" one. They generally interpreted it to mean (to paraphrase George Carlin) "Thou shalt not kill, unless the person in question believes in a different invisible man in the sky than you do, or he did something you really don't like." Personally, I think that the Gospels give a much stronger condemnation of the death penalty, since it goes very much against the whole "love your enemy" ethic that Jesus calls for.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
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RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:51 am

I believe that in order to protect the innocent in our society, criminals that pose the most hazardous threat must be permanently removed. Therefore, I believe the death penalty is warranted in the cases of:

- Repeat sex offenders that cannot be rehabilitated
- Serial killers that cannot be rehabilitated
- Persons convicted of treason
- Persons convicted of crimes against the state (terrorism, enemy combatants, etc.)
- Persons convicted of crimes against humanity

Also, in times of war, I believe desertion should be punishable by death.

[Edited 2007-07-12 22:53:29]
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
seansasLCY
Posts: 1017
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:55 am

I used to agree with the death penalty but then i saw the last words of a death row inmate and it changed my mind what he said was right,

"Tonight we tell the world that there are no second chances in the eyes of justice ... Tonight, we tell our children that in some instances, in some cases, killing is right."

"No one wins tonight. No one gets closure. No one walks away victorious."
- NAPOLEON BEAZLEY executed may 28th 2002 for murder aged 17.

And this changed my mind as i agree with him , how can we say it is wrong to kill but then do the same thing to the killer.
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1445
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:00 pm

RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 6:09 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 43):
- Persons convicted of treason



Quoting TheCol (Reply 43):
Persons convicted of crimes against the state

As said before I'm personally not for the death penalty but do respect other people's opinion of it but off all reasons these two are among the worst.
Treason or crimes against the state are way to much open for interpretation (just look at how the old USSR ,China and so many other countries have abused exactly these "vague" reasons to get rid of some annoying protesters.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 43):
Also, in times of war, I believe desertion should be punishable by death.

Does this also include they who got drafted for fighting in an unjust war or for an unjust cause and made the bold decision to desert (and basically break with everything in their lives and heavily handicapping their personal futures ) rather than fight for all the wrong reasons?

P.S. I'm not talking about any specific war but speak in very general terms.
[edit post]
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:59 am

Quoting FlyingTexan (Reply 4):
When was the last time we executed a rich white person?

Given the extreme rarity of upper income individuals committing capital offenses, it's not very common at all.

Let's nip the race card int he bud, shall we?

Death Row inmates by race:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/drrace.htm

Homicide offenders by race:
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/homicide/tables/oracetab.htm

So you can see. The homicide rate by African Americans is much higher than by Caucasians, but there are more Caucasians on death row than African Americans.

Race card whip reversed.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
USCGC130
Posts: 201
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2007 8:30 am

RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:44 am

Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 44):
And this changed my mind as i agree with him , how can we say it is wrong to kill but then do the same thing to the killer.

As I explained in a previous post, it's a matter of who does the killing and under what circumstances.

Murder is defined as "the unlawful taking of human life, usually with malice aforethought." Execution by the state as punishment for a capital crime, following a fair trial, is not at all hypocritical.

It's sad that in the example you cite, the executed criminal was only 17. But it's sadder still that someone died at his hand. Let's put the sympathy where it belongs, shall we?

Look at the bright side: maybe there really is such a thing as reincarnation, and next time around the kid will come back as a moderately higher form of life -- a toaster, say, or a liberal Democrat.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:33 pm

If the crime is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt......then it's the right punishment for a capital crime.

It removes the offender from society forever, and it shows there are ultimate consequences to certain actions.

As to the people who say it serves no purpose, well that's difficult to prove. It certainly, beyond a doubt, prevents that person from offending society again.

Quoting SeansasLCY (Reply 44):
how can we say it is wrong to kill but then do the same thing to the killer.

the same reason that it's acceptable to our society for a soldier to kill the enemy in combat.....because we say it is....we are defending our society....


I respect the views of people who are against capital punishment....I disagree with them. I also find it interesting that many of the anti-capital punishment people are pro-abortion.....it's something of a dichotomy in philosophy brought about by politics and a willingness to suspend logic. It's ok to kill innocents, but not ok to kill murderers. Humans are funny.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
iflykpdx
Posts: 255
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 8:42 am

RE: Your Views On Death Penalty

Fri Jul 13, 2007 1:11 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 48):
I respect the views of people who are against capital punishment....I disagree with them. I also find it interesting that many of the anti-capital punishment people are pro-abortion.....it's something of a dichotomy in philosophy brought about by politics and a willingness to suspend logic. It's ok to kill innocents, but not ok to kill murderers. Humans are funny.

I realize this is off topic, but I don't think anyone would say they are "Pro-Abortion." No one wants to have to see an abortion performed, or go through with one. The only argument is whether or not is should be legal. I'll just go with what Clinton said: Abortion should be safe, legal, and rare.

I also am against the death penalty, but my reasons have already been stated by others.
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