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flyingbabydoc
Posts: 1059
Joined: Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:12 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:01 pm

Quoting GREATANSETT (Reply 7):
there is a difference between one who opposes the state of Israel and those who oppose Jewish people.

If you know any Jewish person, and particularly those that live in Israel, you will realize that there is no difference, actually. The state of Israel and the Jewish people cannot be separated from each other (albeit the State includes other people too).

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 12):
Israel was a "gift" to the Jews, and a way for the western nations to create an ally in a very important region of the world, politically, religiously and economically

Israel was a return to the land of the forefathers, lost in the Diaspora. Besides, the cold war was only getting "cooler" when Israel was created, so much so that the two German republics were created AFTER Israel. So no "gift" from the Western nations.

Quoting Dtwclipper (Reply 13):
And then who does. Jews have lived in the area for thousands of years, longer then anyone else? Did you miss that part of history?

Conveniently forgotten, as usual.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 14):
The violence that goes on today is because of the Creation of Israel, and it will not end until the Palestinians get a home for themselves, where the jews are willing to respect their right.

I am pretty sure most of the Israeli people have all the desire of acknowledging a Palestinian state with whom they can leave in harmony. However, the capability of the Palestinian people to govern themselves is at least questionable, in view of the recent clashes between Hamas and the Fatah. Don't you think?

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 20):
Isarel WILL cease to exist.

AS I mentioned in a similar thread a while ago, as long as there is one Jew alive there will ALWAYS be a State of Israel, even if it is only in the mind of that person (as it was for 2000 years). Israel will never cease to exist.

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:08 pm

are we talking about Zionism here? because at the end of the day this is the root of the problem! It's not the Jewish or Arab peoples that have the problem...its Zionists that support a homeland for the Jewish people no matter the cost. Haredi Jews actually oppose the state of Israel and support its dismantling and the removal of the Zionist regime. I remember seeing a documentary a while back which focused on self hating Jews, It showed how many Jews who dislike Zionism and spoke out against it where tagged with the label because of their political beliefs.

don't worry...the Jews do ok at targeting their own too! heaven forbid that you should have an opinion that disagrees with a Zionists!
 
flyingbabydoc
Posts: 1059
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 8:38 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 51):
It showed how many Jews who dislike Zionism and spoke out against it where tagged with the label because of their political beliefs

Zionism was important in the XIX Century for it has given birth to Israel, but not anymore. You will find a lot of people in Israel who are against the policy of "greater Israel", or, as you said, Zionism taken to the extreme (they were completely against the return of the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, for example). However, this extreme views have nothing to do with the wish and desire of the Israeli people to continue living in its own land in peace and harmony with neighbours that would be willing to live so.

Alex
Marriage is the art of turning a lover into a relative
 
NoUFO
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:56 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 26):
DTWclipper, I would like to ask you a question with the utmost sincerity, do you realize the the Israeli rule over the Palestinians in itself a Holocaust,

What is this gibberish supposed to mean? Do you actually compare the Shoa to the situation Palestinians are in? If yes, you, Sir, are an idiot, and let me tell you I rarely get upset.

Quoting GREATANSETT (Thread starter):
On one of my recent trips to Lebanon i was walking through a refugee camp in Tripoli

While I partially understand what you are trying to say, I have the feeling that you are confusing a couple of things.
Recently, most refugees from Palestine came from the Gaza strip as a result of Hamas' violence against Fatah members and sympathisers. I believe only Israel allows them to enter their country as Egypt has closes its border.
Most try to escape to the north, at the Erez border crossing. The Israeli built kind of a tunnel to protect Palestinians from other Palestinians, who however, sometimes manage to throw hand grenades into it.

Sure, I realize you were in Tripolis, Lebanon, but what exactly made you angry? That the government fails to integrate refugees quickly? That life for Palestinians in Israel usually better - unless another Palestinian blows him- or herself up (a favourtite spot in Tel Aviv is the former bus station, because of the high population density there. They doesn't seem to care that most of the residents there are Palestinians).

Or does it make you angry that Palestinians flee their "country", because both, Fatah and Hamas, could not and can not provide Palestinians a future?

The entire situation is way too complex to blame Israel for the situation refugees are in.

And next time you travel to Lebanon, tell them to finally stop firing missiles at Israel unless they really want to provoke another war.

Quoting GREATANSETT (Thread starter):
My question is, why do people use the second holocaust as justification of the state of Israel?

There's no such thing like a "second holocaust". There was one Shoa, and that one was more than enough. It absolutely makes no sense to invent a terminus that simply does not exist in historiography.
I support the right to arm bears
 
jfk69
Posts: 1197
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 14):
The violence that goes on today is because of the Creation of Israel,

Ummm yeah.....Keep telling yourself that. Israel was created in 1948......Hebron massacre of 1929 ring a bell?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Palestine_riots

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 20):
When the "West" realizes it wont be within their interest to support Israel, Isarel WILL cease to exist.

Wow...pretty brave statement sir.

Quoting GREATANSETT (Reply 7):
I constantly argue with people who accuse me of being anti-semitic yet it must be recognised that there is a difference between one who opposes the state of Israel and those who oppose Jewish people.

Israel is the Jewish state...it has to go hand in hand.
 
NAV20
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:10 pm

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 54):
Israel is the Jewish state...it has to go hand in hand.

For the life of me I can't understand why, JFK69.

Religion is about religion. Statehood is about politics.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:15 pm

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 54):
Israel is the Jewish state...it has to go hand in hand.

then its up to them to learn to live with the fact that people will see things differently...you can't keeping calling your fellow Jews/Man anti Semitic because they have an opposing view. Its inherently racist in itself.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 14):
The violence that goes on today is because of the Creation of Israel

in part..and the fact that the Zionist regime is propped up by the US, infact, if you at it closely the reason why terrorists are taking aim at us is because they're sick to death of us getting in the way of the scores they have to settle. The US protects Israel from the Arab world, the Saudi regime are protected by the US to a degree for the sake of the black shit from the ground, the Egyptian regime is protected because its a convenient outsource for torture...If you took the US protection away you'd have Palestinians being armed by Iran & Syria to the teeth and settling their scores with IDF, Bin Laden & Co will go to town on the house of Saud for being the infidel that allowed western forces onto the holy land and god knows what the rebellion will be like against the Mubarak regime.

pretty simple...we get out of their way and let them sort out their own business! but no, we continue to put ourselves in the middle of a shit fight that really isn't about us or our way of life.
 
jfk69
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:23 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 55):
For the life of me I can't understand why, JFK69.

Religion is about religion. Statehood is about politics.

This is not a tit for tat thing, but its the same way that the Muslim Countries are considered Muslim Countries. They do go together and not much in the room of debating that. One thing that you can't deny about Israel is the religious freedom of any religion that may want to participate.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 56):
in part..and the fact that the Zionist regime is propped up by the US, infact, if you at it closely the reason why terrorists are taking aim at us is because they're sick to death of us getting in the way of the scores they have to settle. The US protects Israel from the Arab world, the Saudi regime are protected by the US to a degree for the sake of the black shit from the ground, the Egyptian regime is protected because its a convenient outsource for torture...If you took the US protection away you'd have Palestinians being armed by Iran & Syria to the teeth and settling their scores with IDF, Bin Laden & Co will go to town on the house of Saud for being the infidel that allowed western forces onto the holy land and god knows what the rebellion will be like against the Mubarak regime.

pretty simple...we get out of their way and let them sort out their own business! but no, we continue to put ourselves in the middle of a shit fight that really isn't about us or our way of life.

I agree in theory but you know it would just end up being WW3 right?
 
NAV20
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:33 pm

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 57):
One thing that you can't deny about Israel is the religious freedom of any religion that may want to participate.

As far as I know, JFK69, anyone of the Jewish faith can emigrate to Israel any time they like, from any part of the world. A Muslim can't do that, even if he or she was born there and/or has married an Israeli citizen? Doesn't sound like 'freedom of religion' to me?

[Edited 2007-07-13 15:35:41]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
jfk69
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:16 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 58):
As far as I know, JFK69, anyone of the Jewish faith can emigrate to Israel any time they like, from any part of the world. A Muslim can't do that, even if he or she was born there and/or has married an Israeli citizen? Doesn't sound like 'freedom of religion' to me?

They may not be able to gain citizenship, but they are able to practice their respective religion if I am correct?

Can a muslim move to any of the Muslim countries and emigrate?? ( I am asking, i don't know).
 
NAV20
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:27 pm

As far as I know, they can't even get a visa to enter Israel in the first place, JFK69.

I don't know what 'any of the Muslim countries' do. All that I DO know is that no civilised country makes religion a criterion for immigration.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
jfk69
Posts: 1197
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:41 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 60):
As far as I know, they can't even get a visa to enter Israel in the first place

I do believe that is false. They may have extra scrutiny through security but they would be allowed in. They can trasnfer via CAI or transfer through a european country but they are allowed in. You may be thinking that if you have an Israeli stamp in your passport, you may have issues entering Muslim Countries.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 61):
I do believe that is false.

No, I'm afraid that it is exactly true:-

"In approving an effective ban on marriages between Israelis and Palestinians this week, Israel's Supreme Court has shut tighter the gates of the Jewish fortress the state of Israel is rapidly becoming.

"The judges' decision, in the words of the country's normally restrained Haaretz daily, was "shameful". By a wafer-thin majority, the highest court in the land ruled that an amendment passed in 2003 to the Nationality Law barring Palestinians from living with an Israeli spouse inside Israel -- what in legal parlance is termed "family unification" -- did not violate rights enshrined in the country's Basic Laws. And even if it did, the court added, the harm caused to the separated families was outweighed by the benefits of improved "security".

"Israel, concluded the judges, was justified in closing the doors to residency for all Palestinians in order to block the entry of those few who might use marriage as a way to launch terror attacks. Applications for family unification in Israel invariably come from Palestinians in the occupied territories who marry other Palestinians, often friends or relatives, with Israeli citizenship. One in five of Israel's population is Palestinian by descent, a group, commonly referred to as Israeli Arabs, who managed to remain inside the Jewish state during the war of 1948 that established Israel."


http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10321

[Edited 2007-07-13 16:58:33]
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:45 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:02 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 20):
Yeah, Israel really proved it's military might when they invaded Southern Lebanon, what a convincing victory it was for Israel. When the "West" realizes it wont be within their interest to support Israel, Isarel WILL cease to exist.

Maybe in your wet dreams. The United States will never let anything happen to Israel. And regardless, Israel has already whooped the armies of the Arab states that border it several times. Israel is here to stay.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 26):
DTWclipper, I would like to ask you a question with the utmost sincerity, do you realize the the Israeli rule over the Palestinians in itself a Holocaust,

Uh, no. It is not.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 39):
When the Palestinians held free elections which rooted out Fatah and voted in Hamas, the entire world was against the Palestinian voting decision. Why is that? You hold free elections, and then discredit the outcome, thats how the political process works.

Elections don't always equal success. How do you think the Nazis got into power? Hamas is a terrorist group, and terrorist groups do not need to be in charge of governing, particularly in the Middle East.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 42):
I'm sorry, the number's arent anywhere close, but the policies undertaken by Israel to prohibit the free movement of Palestinians, limiting their rights is similar to the policies during the horrors of the Holocaust.

Not even close. The Palestinians would be able to move more freely if they didn't try to blow themselves up all the time. Israel is taking defensive measures to protect itself from terrorism; the Holocaust was an offensive measure used to eradicate an entire race/religion of people.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 43):

Maybe you should ask a Palestinian who is has been stateless for two generations now.

And he'll still say no, if he isn't ignorant.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 49):
Have the Palestinians killed 6 million Jews? No. Have the Palestinians displaced millions into refugee camps? No.

No one is calling what the Palestinians are doing to Israel a "Holocaust." I don't see how this is relevant...?
 
jfk69
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:04 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 60):
As far as I know, they can't even get a visa to enter Israel in the first place



Quoting NAV20 (Reply 62):
Quoting JFK69 (Reply 61):
I do believe that is false.

No, I'm afraid that it is exactly true:-

Please stick to the topic. You said they can't get Visas to enter Israel and you show me an article regarding intermarriages. Let's not take comments out of text.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:15 am

You misunderstand, JFK69. Prior to 2003 they couldn't get a visa UNLESS it was for 'family reunification.' Now even that window has been closed by the Court.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:22 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 65):
You misunderstand, JFK69. Prior to 2003 they couldn't get a visa UNLESS it was for 'family reunification.' Now even that window has been closed by the Court.

While I understand the decision is a tragedy for many honest families, there is a reason for the decision, and I think you know that.
I support the right to arm bears
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:42 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 66):
there is a reason for the decision, and I think you know that.

I know the 'reason' for it, NoUFO, but in my opinion the thinking behind it is as stupid as the reasoning King Canute was up against.

All the great democracies have realised, over the centuries, that the first principle of any sort of just society is that religion must be kept separate from government and politics. It appears that the proponents of 'Fortress Israel' have yet to learn that lesson. It gives me no comfort that a lot of OTHER countries in the Middle East apparently have yet to learn it too.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 53):
If yes, you, Sir, are an idiot, and let me tell you I rarely get upset.

Yes, let the personal insults begin

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 54):
Keep telling yourself that. Israel was created in 1948......Hebron massacre of 1929 ring a bell

Yes, I'm sure Israel creation is recognized from 1929.

Quoting KSYR (Reply 63):
The Palestinians would be able to move more freely if they didn't try to blow themselves up all the time. Israel is taking defensive measures to protect itself from terrorism

There you go, it shows that the average image of an Arab is that of a gun-wielding terrorist bent on killing infidels, Im sure all Palestinians are thinking of ways to kill Jews at this instant. I wont disagree that senseless killings are committed by the Palestinians, but you ever think why they do it, besides the usual bullshit that the religion is telling them to do it? Maybe, you it is an act of desperation?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
PPVRA
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:08 am

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 50):
Israel was a return to the land of the forefathers, lost in the Diaspora.

I am nowhere near the point of deciding an opinion for myself on the issue, but I think this fact is correct, at least to a good extent.

Is it not a fact that many European Jews began immigrating to "that part of the world" to flee the NAZIs before WW2 even started?

I agree with NAV20 here, religion shouldn't be given any governing power or even any kind of "official" status. It only creates trouble.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:12 am

We are all assessing this situation from what we hear from the news/friends/people, if we are so de

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 69):
Is it not a fact that many European Jews began immigrating to "that part of the world" to flee the NAZIs before WW2 even started?

Yes, the idea of Zionism started in the late 1800, i believe around the 1870's, and small groups of Jewish people moved to reclaim there land, However as the Jews started emigrating is mass numbers, tensions became high.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 69):
I am nowhere near the point of deciding an opinion for myself on the issue, but I think this fact is correct, at least to a good extent.

Yes, but it doesnt justify kicking out thousands into "stateless" status
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 67):
I know the 'reason' for it, NoUFO, but in my opinion the thinking behind it is as stupid as the reasoning King Canute was up against.

That's ok, it's not that I am feeling comfortable with their decision. At the same time: Neither do the Israeli; the majority for the ruling was as slim as it could get. Against the backdrop of the situation the Israeli are in and the threat they face, I'm actually surprised that the ruling does not see a broader public support.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 67):
All the great democracies have realised, over the centuries, that the first principle of any sort of just society is that religion must be kept separate from government and politics.

I'm not sure if this really has something to do with religion. Those affected by the ruling are not necessarily devotional Muslims.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 68):
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 53):
If yes, you, Sir, are an idiot, and let me tell you I rarely get upset.

Yes, let the personal insults begin

You apparently refuse to really dig into the history of the Shoa, the "Third Reich" and Israel before throwing the Holocaust-Sledghammer against - of all nations - Israel. If what Israel does is compareable to the Shoa, you're saying that Hitler and his henchmen weren't that bad at all. That puts you close to Holocaust apologist, and now you are surprised that others, I for one, take offense in that.
Didn't you once said you're tired of 'political correctness'? There you have it.
I support the right to arm bears
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:22 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 48):

Fair enough.

Quoting Flyingbabydoc (Reply 52):

I believe that is the case. Once Hamas is rooted out in the West Bank, I suspect Israel will grant the Palestinians their own state.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:30 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 71):
against - of all nations - Israel.

Yes, that is indeed a punishable crime, speaking ill against Israel

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 71):
you're saying that Hitler and his henchmen weren't that bad at all.

Thankyou for making my deductions, have you ever been to the Palestinian territories, to witness the crimes against humanity as we speak?

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 71):
That puts you close to Holocaust apologist

Just because, i choose not to accept the legitimate existence of Israel doesnt make me all the following claims such as "anti-semite, Holocaust apologist, and so forth

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 71):
Didn't you once said you're tired of 'political correctness'?

Where did I say that?
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:35 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 73):
ave you ever been to the Palestinian territories, to witness the crimes against humanity as we speak?

Yes, have you? I find no reason to call it a Holocaust (genocide). Most Palestinians I've met with won't call it that either.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 73):
Just because, i choose not to accept the legitimate existence of Israel doesnt make me all the following claims such as "anti-semite, Holocaust apologist, and so forth

Then what should be done with Israel? Do you believe that Israel should be "wiped off the map"?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
LAXspotter
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting TheCol (Reply 74):
Yes, have you? I find no reason to call it a Holocaust (genocide). Most Palestinians I've met with won't call it that either.

Let's call it Apartheid, is that much better?

Quoting TheCol (Reply 74):
Do you believe that Israel should be "wiped off the map"?

Hell no, maybe my earlier statments against Zionism at first were taken to as "wiping it off the map", but I would like to see a viable two state solution, but it looks like now there has to be a three state solution, LOL.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:29 am

Well, regarding the original post: It's a fundamental fact that Israel uses the holocaust to justify every single bad thing they do. Many of their actions are genocidal-- while they might not have killed six million people, it's still wrong to exterminate groups of people based on their ethnicity.

And BTW, regarding NAV20's statement about restricting Arab and Israeli marriage-- that is a disgustingly racist law that sounds like something the Nazi's would have passed.


Andrea Kent
"Private Cowboy, Private Joker: As soon as you finish your bunks, I want you two turds to clean the head -- I want that head so sanitary and squared-away tha the Virgin Mary, herself, would be *PROUD* to go in there and take a dump!"
Gunnery Sergeant Hartman -- Full-Metal Jacket (1987)
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:45 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:37 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 73):
Thankyou for making my deductions, have you ever been to the Palestinian territories, to witness the crimes against humanity as we speak?

You mean the Palestinians that go around killing Palestinians? I've seen plenty of that in the news lately; Hamas really are a bunch of thugs.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 75):

Let's call it Apartheid, is that much better?

Well, it isn't Apartheid, but even if it was that is still MUCH better than Holocaust. Believe me, the Israeli-Palestinian crisis does not compare AT ALL to the Holocaust. Two different events of two vastly different scales. Equating one to the other would be like comparing the damage from a routine summer thunderstorm to that of 2004's Southeast Asian tsunami. It just isn't the same thing, nor will it ever be.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:42 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 73):
Just because, i choose not to accept the legitimate existence of Israel...



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 75):
...I would like to see a viable two state solution

Which one is it?

Do you not accept the right of Israel to exist, or do you want a two state solution (assuming one of those states is Israel)?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 76):
Many of their actions are genocidal-- while they might not have killed six million people, it's still wrong to exterminate groups of people based on their ethnicity.

Do you seriously believe that Israel is committing genocide?
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 78):
Do you not accept the right of Israel to exist

I believe it was created by illegal means that displaced hundreds of thousands, but as of present day, the only solution is a two-state solution, one that will be better for a better world.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 79):
Do you seriously believe that Israel is committing genocide?

What if a Jew believes that his/her country is committing genocide? Then infact could it be genocide? Because Andrea herself is a Jew who loathes how the Israeli government is treating the Palestinians, the so called second-class citizens who are denied basic human rights.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
jfk69
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2006 3:04 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:51 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 80):
What if a Jew believes that his/her country is committing genocide? Then infact could it be genocide? Because Andrea herself is a Jew who loathes how the Israeli government is treating the Palestinians, the so called second-class citizens who are denied basic human rights.

Denying your so called basic human rights is not Genocide. I am a Jew as well who loathes something as well. I loathe self hating Jews....Can I accuse them of mass genocide or any other far out accusal with out facts since I am "one of them"

Close this thread please.....way off topic.
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 80):
What if a Jew believes that his/her country is committing genocide?

Well, my father was a victim of the Holocaust and I certainly DON'T believe that Israel is committing genocide. My brother-in-law is an Israeli Jew and certainly doesn't believe Israel is committing genocide. And frankly, Andrea is not the person to really ask about personal opinions (ask her about 9/11). And Kent is not a Jewish surname.

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 81):
Close this thread please.....way off topic.

Good suggestion.
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:18 am

Quoting JFK69 (Reply 81):
am a Jew as well who loathes something as well. I loathe self hating Jews....

Yes, the classic "whoever hates Israel" is a Jew hater, Exactly.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 82):
And frankly, Andrea is not the person to really ask about personal opinions (ask her about 9/11)

Because she doesnt cater to your political agenda doesnt mean her opinions are worthless/BS. She isnt the only Jew who is against the policies undertaken by Israel.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:45 am

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 83):
Yes, the classic "whoever hates Israel" is a Jew hater, Exactly.

But what is Israel full of, by definition. You could also say that you hate Congress, but not its members. Or any company, but not its employees. Or you could simply come out and say 'I hate Israelis' and get the charade over with.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 83):
Because she doesnt cater to your political agenda doesnt mean her opinions are worthless/BS. She isnt the only Jew who is against the policies undertaken by Israel.

Have you been witness to her agenda? Just because you agree with her does not make either of you correct, either. And I doubt that she has even visited Israel, while I get my information from a brother-in-law who has his whole family there.
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:39 am

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 71):
I'm not sure if this really has something to do with religion. Those affected by the ruling are not necessarily devotional Muslims.

I'm never sure to what extent Israel's discrimination policies are based on religion, race, or even nationality, NoUFO - the terms seem to be interchangeable whenever the Israel question is discussed. But the essential thing is, as I understand it, under the so-called "Law of Return,' automatic residency and citizenship is available to virtually anyone who can prove that they are 'Jewish.'

It's one of the supreme ironies of modern life that, again as far as I understand the situation, the definition of who is 'Jewish' remains the one that was applied to Germany and Occupied Europe some years ago by one Adolf Schickelgrueber:-

"There is also fierce debate surrounding the question of “Who is a Jew,” and by extension, who is eligible to make aliyah under the Law of Return. At present, the definition is based on Hitler’s Nuremberg Laws: the right of Return is granted to any individual with one Jewish grandparent, or who is married to someone with one Jewish grandparent. As a result, thousands of people with no meaningful connection to the Jewish people theoretically have the right to immigrate.

"To make matters more complicated, the Israeli Rabbinate, a purely Orthodox body, is far more stringent about its definition of who is a Jew, leaving thousands of “Jewish” immigrants ineligible for marriage and unrecognized by the state authorities."


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Politics/return.html

Whatever - there is no room for doubt that Israel practises racial and/or religious discrimination on the grand scale, in its immigration policies and in many other areas, and has given it the force of law.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 71):
You apparently refuse to really dig into the history of the Shoa

What exactly is (or was) the 'Shoa'?
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 10:47 am

Kent is not exactly my real family's name. My great-grandfather when he came here through Ellis Island, had a different name, which reflected a Russian ancestry, but was rather terribly actually, translated somehow into Kent. My Great-Grandfather, all the way to my mother and father are not Jewish. Two of my aunts (through marriage) however were, and I got along with them both, and their respective families, and took an interest in the cultural differences, and along the way, converted to Judaism.


Andrea K
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:45 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 12:54 pm

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 80):
I believe it was created by illegal means that displaced hundreds of thousands,

Same with the United States. We displaced and killed countless Native Americans. Do you believe that we have the right to exist?
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 1:08 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 49):
Have the Palestinians displaced millions into refugee camps? No.



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 80):
I believe it was created by illegal means

By what standard? If there was a "Palestine" today in the same area where Israel is, would we be discussing millions of displaced Jews?

Quoting KSYR (Reply 87):
Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 80):
I believe it was created by illegal means that displaced hundreds of thousands,

Same with the United States. We displaced and killed countless Native Americans. Do you believe that we have the right to exist?

Interesting question. We displaced many, and brought war and disease they couldn't fight. But, yes, we do have the right to exist as we do as a country - that's life. One group, one society, one nation moves into another's territory, conflict erupts, and, voila, one wins and one loses. Until there's a 1-world government (and I loathe that idea), there will never be a secular standard by which anyone can say one group is right and the other wrong. Otherwise, we're left to choose sides, and if some person/group/nation thinks one group, namely Israel, is wrong for what they did in '48, they can either (A), join them, (B) fight them or (C) form their opinions and nothing more, like most of us do.

-R
Living the American Dream
 
LAXspotter
Posts: 3227
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 4:16 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 2:04 pm

Quoting KSYR (Reply 87):
Do you believe that we have the right to exist?

I never stated that Israel doesnt have the right to exist, i stated that it was created by what i feel illegally. Ofcourse Israel and the USA have the right to exist.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 88):
would we be discussing millions of displaced Jews?

No, and for good Reason, Jews didnt have "Palestine" as a Permanent home, before the turn of the 20th century"
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
elal 744
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Jun 21, 2000 1:19 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 6:05 pm

The State of Israel was created by an act of the United Nations in 1947.

It was also created by a moral necessity to give the Jewish People a homeland after the Holocaust and by our historical link to the land – but I will not discuss these issues and there are interesting and valid arguments on both sides, all of which have some justification and usually lead these conversations into dead ends, where passion overcomes our ability to understand.

Calling the existence of Israel illegal is a personal opinion, not one based on fact. One should read up on their facts (and be aware of the slant they are given based on who they get them from) and argue from a rational point, because Israel is not going to disappear from the map, no matter how hard anyone wished it. (Um, I am not going to into the nuclear war scenario).

Instead of harping on the past, let us talk about the future. Israel has reached a stage where the consensus is 2 states for 2 people. Now is the time to sit and talk about this future and move forward.

And to all here on Airliners.net who can have a civilized conversation here, I invite you all to Israel – and visit the Palestinian Authority - to see for yourself because there is not better way to understand what is going on but to see with your own eyes.
Vercere bracis meis
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:00 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 85):
What exactly is (or was) the 'Shoa'?

A synonym for 'Holocaust'. I prefer the term Shoa ('catastrophe') over Holocaust ('burnt offering' or 'punishment (from God)'), because the latter one refers to the Old Testament, which could imply that the atrocities committed by Nazis was an expression of God's will, which it clearly wasn't.
I support the right to arm bears
 
NAV20
Posts: 8453
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 7:49 pm

Thnaks for the explanation, NoUFO.

Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 90):
Israel has reached a stage where the consensus is 2 states for 2 people. Now is the time to sit and talk about this future and move forward.

Can't agree with that, ELAL 744, just on practical grounds. If the UN, or even the Zionists, had asked anyone with technical knowledge in the field, they'd have been told that the Palestine of 1947 was going to have difficulty supporting expected natural growth of the population it already had, leave alone millions of extra immigrants; simply because there wasn't enough arable land, natural resources, and above all WATER.

Setting up the state of Israel was therefore never a practical proposition from the start; because of excess population, over and above what the area could support from local resources, it was always going to require subsidies from outside sources. And the whole region was - and remains - too small to support two separate nations; one of them will always come off second best.

If you know the history of Israel's expansion you'll know that gaining control of the region's scarce water supplies - the Jordan, of course, via the West Bank, but also the Golan Heights and South Lebanon was always one of the primary objectives of the various expansionary wars that Israel has waged.

I'm not sure that the problem of over-population will ever be solved, starting from here; but it certainly won't be solved unless the whole population (Israelis AND Palestinians) work in the fullest cooperation from now on.

My solution would be to establish what the UN originally envisaged; effectively, a single federalised country divided into two self-governing states, with Jerusalem as an international zone. And, of course, equal rights and freedom of religion for everyone. Plus strict controls on net immigration to slow down any further population growth. And, inevitably, a lot of economic aid.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5197
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sat Jul 14, 2007 8:07 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 82):
my father was a victim of the Holocaust and I certainly DON'T believe that Israel is committing genocide

if your father is a victim of the holocaust then how are you here today?
 
Blackbird
Posts: 3384
Joined: Wed Oct 06, 1999 10:48 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 2:42 am

To ElAl744,

Keep in mind before the Israeli's actually had the deed to the land figuratively speaking, they were already carrying out attacks on settlers in the area to "make way" for the land they would eventually own, but did NOT own yet...


Andrea K
 
andessmf
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RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 4:04 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 93):
if your father is a victim of the holocaust then how are you here today?

He survived by pure luck, and bore the scars of the ordeal till he died.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting ELAL 744 (Reply 90):
And to all here on Airliners.net who can have a civilized conversation here, I invite you all to Israel – and visit the Palestinian Authority - to see for yourself because there is not better way to understand what is going on but to see with your own eyes.

Yes, I agree. I didn't even have an ounce of perspective on this issue until I saw it with my own eyes.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
raffik
Posts: 1564
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 9:50 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:44 am

The Jews turfed out families from their homes, stole their belongings, their land, their stock using brute force. They came armed from the ships and displaced a whole nation into Jordan, Syria and eventually, as noone would have them, Lebanon.

Lebanon is paying the price for the Palestinian situation. Our country is full of almost 400,000 of them! They don't work, they don't pay taxes, they steal electricity, water, phone lines, you name. The Lebanese army can't even enter these camps.They are like friggin cities! They have their own police system, their own army. It's ludricous.

The Palestinians fight Israel from OUR country, with all the retaliation destroying LEBANESE infrastructure. It's sickening.
Israel should never have been able to force so many Palestinians from their homes. Having been treated so poorly by those in Europe, how they can do the same to the Palestinians is beyond me.

The Palestinians deserve their homes back desperatley. They have been in Lebanon for too long. We shouldn't have to pay the price for Israel's mistakes. It's simply not fair.
- Alec
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5197
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 95):
He survived by pure luck, and bore the scars of the ordeal till he died.

fair enough...my cousins mother in law had a pretty harrowing experience and ended up in east Africa then Iran of all places. finally settling in Australia in the 60's. she's written a few books about her experiences.

http://www.austlit.edu.au/run?ex=ShowAgent&agentId=A0OI
 
andessmf
Posts: 5689
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2006 8:53 am

RE: Palestine And The Holocaust?

Sun Jul 15, 2007 9:49 am

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 98):

(I was born when my father was 57!!)

Our situation was a little different, as my father was never raised as a Jew and was not aware of any Jewish background. When it came to light, it ended up that my grandmother committed suicide over it, and this was during the beginning of the 30s.

My uncle ended up having had some association with the Nazi party (my dead grandma was quite the typical Aryan), but escaped Germany once it was realized that he would be persecuted. My father was in Holland at the time.

To make a long story short, my uncle ended up in prison in the US for his Nazi ties, and my father ended up in a concentration camp in Europe for being a Jew.

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