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EWRCabincrew
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At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:12 am

I started this thread as I did not want to tarnish the thread started in civ. av. about two helicopters that had crashed and those who were killed.

A man stole a utility vehicle, drove erratically and a chase ensues. News copters were out in force to cover this. Two copters collide and crash into Steele Indian School Park here in PHX. A channel 3 reporter made it seem like the man who stole the vehicle caused the copters to crash.

My question is why is it necessary for live coverage of a car chase in the first place? Do we really need to be barraged with 'in your face' news about the stupid shit that people do?

Police copters, I can understand for a high speed chase. Police cars in pursuit, I can understand for a high speed chase. News copters, not so much for a high speed chase.

It is truly a sad loss for such a low key event as a car chase. The general public is "hungry" for exciting news. The bigger, the gorier, the better. What is really sad is that this crash will not stop the need for a seemingly insatiable need for "up to the minute" news.
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DeltaAVL
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:24 am

STLGph should have fun with this one...

[Edited 2007-07-28 00:25:41]
 
stlgph
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:42 am

I sure will. And I've gotta get ready to do my 6. Be back.
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bristolflyer
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:48 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Thread starter):
I started this thread as I did not want to tarnish the thread started in civ. av. about two helicopters that had crashed and those who were killed.

A man stole a utility vehicle, drove erratically and a chase ensues. News copters were out in force to cover this. Two copters collide and crash into Steele Indian School Park here in PHX. A channel 3 reporter made it seem like the man who stole the vehicle caused the copters to crash.

My question is why is it necessary for live coverage of a car chase in the first place? Do we really need to be barraged with 'in your face' news about the stupid shit that people do?

Police copters, I can understand for a high speed chase. Police cars in pursuit, I can understand for a high speed chase. News copters, not so much for a high speed chase.

It is truly a sad loss for such a low key event as a car chase. The general public is "hungry" for exciting news. The bigger, the gorier, the better. What is really sad is that this crash will not stop the need for a seemingly insatiable need for "up to the minute" news.

I absolutely agree. I live in Phx and there's always copters overhead making a racket and contributing to the brown cloud (pollution). I hate it, there's maybe a need for one, but not more than one. Quite often there are 5 or 6 of them all reporting the same thing from different angles. Then there are the inherent risks associated with so many aircarft jockeying for the best position...
Fortune favours the brave
 
DeltaAVL
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 7:56 am

Quoting BristolFlyer (Reply 3):
I absolutely agree. I live in Phx and there's always copters overhead making a racket and contributing to the brown cloud (pollution). I hate it

You're worried about contributing to the pollution, and yet you're an avid aviation enthusiast.  Confused
 
OPNLguy
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Thread starter):
The general public is "hungry" for exciting news. The bigger, the gorier, the better. What is really sad is that this crash will not stop the need for a seemingly insatiable need for "up to the minute" news.

Therein is the problem: The media is only providing what the public has come to desire/expect, and the entire issue is akin to the old "Which came first; the chicken or the egg?" joke. Did the media provide it (and then we started watching), or did we ask for it (and they then started providing it)? It's a vicious circle.

Irrespective of whether a media helicopter is owned by the station itself, or owned/leased by another outfit and contracted to the station, helicopter ops are expensive. If you have the asset, I would think think the natural default inclination is to use it. In some cases, the story itself might not warrant it, and you might not want to use the helicopter, but if the other stations have launched theirs, you have to keep up with the competition. You also have to wonder about budgetary considerations, i.e. "If we don't use it X-number times a week/month/year, the budgeting for it may be reduced/eliminated."

Now that the NTSB has announced they're going to investigate this accident, I'm curious as to what their final recommendations will end up being....

On an unrelated note, I wonder if the crash video will be rebroadcast as often as often as the Virginia Tech gunman's was....
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
bristolflyer
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:26 am

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 4):
you're an avid aviation enthusiast

Said who?
Fortune favours the brave
 
AirTranTUS
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:39 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 5):
helicopter ops are expensive.

That's one reason why TUS does not have any news choppers anymore. Our CBS affiliate, KOLD 13, had one a few years ago, but have since sold it.

I think the reason American's like car chases are because of shows like COPS where they are dramatized. I am guilty of this as well, as I enjoy watching car chases. I still enjoy them after today, but with a new awareness of the news helicopters following them. I never before imagined 5 helicopters following a chase, even in an LA chase.
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stlgph
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:41 am

As I said in the other thread, this is a case of pilot error.

Well, there's two folds there ... there's one side that is going to blame this all on the news copters trying to be the best in the news business, which is horsewaller, and then there's the other side which is the basic errors or issues that any pilot faces every time they take to the skies, which is what this is.

From the video clips I've seen thus far on our news servers, it sounds like since space was tight, one copter decided to fly above another one. However, all the copters, and you can hear them, were in communication with one another. One copter told the other that they were going to fly above them ... and then it can be guessed that the one that was underneath, after acknowledging, disregarded, lifted up and then the two collided.

The Fox copter was also in the air. Look up the Fox Phoenix website and listen to the helicopter reporter's report if it is on there.

In the end, if there's anything to be glad about in this incident, be thankful they came down in a park and not anywhere else.


Quoting EWRCabincrew (Thread starter):
The general public is "hungry" for exciting news. The bigger, the gorier, the better. What is really sad is that this crash will not stop the need for a seemingly insatiable need for "up to the minute" news.

So what is it about? Pilot error or the need for news?

In that case let's blame ALL aviation deaths on the insatiable need for "needing to get somewhere as fast as possible."

Can't wait to hear what you want to blame car wrecks on.
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:49 am

From personal experience, news choppers are generally a pain in the ass. They have a way of hindering our EMS and rescue efforts.

Many times, family members have shown up on the scene of a nasty crash because they recognized a loved one's crashed vehicle thanks to a ratings-grabbing "BREAKING NEWS" broadcast via a TV news chopper and chose to show up on-scene. Why the fuck do they have to zoom in so tight that license plate numbers can be seen clearly?

Other times the noise of the chopper hinders verbal and radio communication during crucial periods during a rescue. I've also had to tell inbound EMS helicopters to go-around because a news chopper has darted into the path of its approach.
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stlgph
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:51 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 9):
Why the fuck do they have to zoom in so tight that license plate numbers can be seen clearly?

If Joe Blow can happen by the scene on circumstance and see the scene, so can the camera.
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AsstChiefMark
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 8:59 am

But why do they blur the license plate numbers on news documentaries and not on the local news?
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OPNLguy
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:01 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 8):
As I said in the other thread, this is a case of pilot error.

Don't you think (with the wreckage not even being cooled-down yet) that it's just a teensy-weensy bit early for this kind of definitive statement?  Yeah sure

If not, by all means call the NTSB and save us taxpayers all that money on the investigation...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
stlgph
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:02 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 11):

I asked that question once and went after specifics ... and it was a while ago and I kind of forget a lot of the details but I want to say it comes back down to validity of "being in the place at the time," etc. etc. sort of thing.

Next time I speaketh to my "God," I'll inquire.
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DeltaAVL
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:36 am

Quoting BristolFlyer (Reply 6):
Said who?

Says your 1,417 posts on an aviation enthusiast website.
 
kiwiinoz
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 10:34 am

News comes to us at a great cost, quite often the lives of those bringing it to us. However this cost is worth paying, as a good journalist, with no political agenda, is one of the most effective tools we have today of holding people accountable and broadening people's perspective.

The case, (with the choppers) however is an entirely different story. This is consumer driven live reality TV with no real news merit. Thse guys died attempting to entertain people, which is just as tragic.
 
bristolflyer
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sat Jul 28, 2007 11:50 pm

Quoting DeltaAVL (Reply 14):
Says your 1,417 posts on an aviation enthusiast website.

Most are on Non-Av and have nothing to do with aviation. I have a general interest in aviation, this does not mean that I am not concerned about pollution/environmental issues.
Fortune favours the brave
 
stlgph
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 12):
Don't you think (with the wreckage not even being cooled-down yet) that it's just a teensy-weensy bit early for this kind of definitive statement?

As I mentioned in reply 8, you can hear the communications between the pilots on the air as they were following the chase. Please read more thoroughly.
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AGM100
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:22 am

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Thread starter):
My question is why is it necessary for live coverage of a car chase in the first place?

Spot on , It is totally unnecessary IMHO. All that money spent for the aircraft so that someone can watch a clip of some crazy ass endangering the public is foolish. I think it is safe to assume that the rules may change now . The only helicoptor operating above these high speed chases should be a AH-64 ,,and just long enough to put a hellfire up thier ass.
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stlgph
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:30 am

if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
ThePRGuy
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting BristolFlyer (Reply 3):
I hate it, there's maybe a need for one, but not more than one.

Meh, I think the one is too much. If I want to watch police chases, I will wait for "Road Wars" or "Police Camera Action" to come on the tv, I don't want to watch FOX or SKY in the hope of a car chase coming on, it's not valuable news, it devalues the truly important stories, and its offensive that so many people watch news channels that provide these lacklustre reportings. Why on earth would you switch on the news (and keep it turned on), if you see some hick driving an '87 Bronco at 60 on the wrong side of the freeway? The news is not public entertainment, its public information and it is for public knowledge. These men died due to the boom in "reality" entertainment that even some of the "highest calibre" news companies have started embracing. Pathetic.

Alex
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seb146
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 1:52 am

I agree with:

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Thread starter):
Police copters, I can understand for a high speed chase. Police cars in pursuit, I can understand for a high speed chase. News copters, not so much for a high speed chase.

Maybe it is just the fact that I live in PDX and we don't have high speed car chases, but when I see them being televised, I wonder why they are being broadcast at all. Theft and evading aside, what is the point of showing something like that? So, someone who broke the law is trying to get away from cops. It happens. I don't agree with it, but those who just committed a crime run. Let the police do their job. Why not have just one news copter out there sharing their feed with all the other news outlets and rotate it for every story like this? That way, there would only be the news copter and the police copter.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Thread starter):
It is truly a sad loss for such a low key event as a car chase. The general public is "hungry" for exciting news. The bigger, the gorier, the better. What is really sad is that this crash will not stop the need for a seemingly insatiable need for "up to the minute" news.

Maybe televising high speed chases can be summed up in one word: Ratings. There were shots fired at a high school about three blocks from where I was working. Three news copters were there circling the area and every policeman in Gresham had the school surrounded. The FOX copter arrived first and stayed the longest, but after a few good shots from the air, the other two left. More information was gained by the news vans on the street and people actually going to someone in charge and asking questions. But, I am guessing since the FOX affiliate was there first and interrupted their daily dose of Judge Judy, they thought they had the highest ratings for that story. It's all about the Benjamens.

Disclaimer: The people in the PHX copters were doing their job. Because their superiors want profit does not diminish what they in the copters did or make their deaths less tragic.
You bet I'm pumped!!! I just had a green tea!!!
 
graphic
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:03 am

I realize you're just defending your occupation, but:

Quoting STLGph (Reply 8):
As I said in the other thread, this is a case of pilot error.

Don't blame us when you guys chock the sky so full of metal that it sometimes comes down in shower form.
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stlgph
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:07 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 22):

Don't blame us when you guys chock the sky so full of metal that it sometimes comes down in shower form.

Right. I totally agree. We'd better shut down major airports then, too.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 21):
Why not have just one news copter out there sharing their feed with all the other news outlets and rotate it for every story like this?

Union embargos.

Quoting ThePRGuy (Reply 20):
I don't want to watch FOX or SKY in the hope of a car chase coming on, it's not valuable news, it devalues the truly important stories

The chase started during the noon hour when all the stations have news broadcasts on and will send their copters up for traffic reasons, construction updates, and anything else that is going on.
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itsjustme
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:14 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 7):
I never before imagined 5 helicopters following a chase, even in an LA chase.

The California media ceased breaking into regular programming to show live footage of police pursuits quite some time ago. Now, the only time you'll see live footage is if a chase is occurring during an actual news broadcast. That being said, there have been times when we've actually been assisted by a media helicopter in tracking a fleeing motorist, usually a motorcycle, who has managed to evade our ground units before we could get an airship in the area. I don't have a problem with them filming a pursuit as long as they don't hinder law enforcement while doing so. Let's face it, people watch those pursuits hoping to see something spectacular, like a crash and I can't fault the media for feeding that desire.

I haven't read anything today but yesterday I was reading that the agency who had jurisdiction when the collision and deaths occurred are considering somehow linking responsibility to the guy who was running from the cops. That's a bit of a stretch, if you ask me. Yes, I know AZ has some state law that holds those responsible if a death occurs during their commission of a crime (AirCop, can you shed some light on this?) but linking the deaths of the 4 media personnel to the actions of the guy who was fleeing seems like a bit of a reach.
 
graphic
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 23):

Right. I totally agree. We'd better shut down major airports then, too.

False pretense.

Major airports have air traffic controllers, they direct traffic down exact paths at exact altitudes and space them evenly apart. Their sole job is to keep traffic flowing smoothly, re: not hitting anything. When you get these car chases, the helicopter pilots are directing traffic on their own, without an observer to guide them. When the airspace gets very clogged, it becomes very dangerous (I know because I've flown in similar conditions), and often you only have milliseconds between "safe distance" and "paint swap."
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stlgph
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:19 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 25):
False pretense.

Not at all.


And you obviously didn't watch the interview on the Fox station link with their helicopter pilot.

And you obviously didn't read reply #8.
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graphic
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 2:44 am

I read the reply and watched the link. I think the statement says it all: "We do our own Air Traffic Control." The busier it gets, the more dangerous that becomes, and the only reason the helicopters were in a position to cause the accident they did is because the news agencies put them there. If you really want the story, why not have one helicopter that sells their footage to every station?
Demand Media fails at life
 
stlgph
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:08 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 27):
"We do our own Air Traffic Control."

And yet you missed #8.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 8):
From the video clips I've seen thus far on our news servers, it sounds like since space was tight, one copter decided to fly above another one. However, all the copters, and you can hear them, were in communication with one another. One copter told the other that they were going to fly above them ... and then it can be guessed that the one that was underneath, after acknowledging, disregarded, lifted up and then the two collided.

It's a pilot thing. Not a news thing.

Reminds me of this --

http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/1997/AAR9704.pdf
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OPNLguy
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 8):
As I said in the other thread, this is a case of pilot error.



Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 12):
Don't you think (with the wreckage not even being cooled-down yet) that it's just a teensy-weensy bit early for this kind of definitive statement?



Quoting STLGph (Reply 17):
As I mentioned in reply 8, you can hear the communications between the pilots on the air as they were following the chase. Please read more thoroughly.

My reading comprehension skills are just fine (thank-you very much), and I saw/heard the same clips that you did.

It's obvious that the two aircraft made contact, but you're presuming to be omnipotent enough to know why they did so, i.e. it was "pilot error", without any shred of doubt or even proof. It may well have been a loss of situational awareness, etc., but could a mechanical problem that had developed been a distraction that caused a loss of situational awareness and contact with the other helicopter? No, there wasn't any "distress call" mentioning a problem, but not every problem is clearly announced by a big red warning light and blaring klaxon horn--some are subtle and have to first be recognized before they can be reacted to. I have no idea what actually happened, and more importantly, neither do you.

With all due respect, how about your demonstrating some objectivity as an impartial journalist, concentrating on reporting the news, and leaving accident investigation to the folks at NTSB/FAA?

[Edited 2007-07-28 20:40:29]
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
stlgph
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:44 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 29):
With all due respect, how about your demonstrating some objectivity as an impartial journalist, concentrating on reporting the news, and leaving accident investigation to the folks at NTSB/FAA?

They're going to hear the same tapes I did which you can also hear yourself.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 8):
However, all the copters, and you can hear them, were in communication with one another. One copter told the other that they were going to fly above them ... and then it can be guessed that the one that was underneath, after acknowledging, disregarded, lifted up and then the two collided.

...and based on reports of other choppers in the area and what they saw and heard on the radios, and the audio that has been released since then, this is what happened.

You'd have to be retarded in order not to piece this together and with all due respect, I'm not retarded.
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2H4
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:59 am




Quoting STLGph (Reply 30):
based on reports of other choppers in the area and what they saw and heard on the radios, and the audio that has been released since then, this is what happened.

Can these sources confirm that there was definitely no mechanical, meteorological, or other factors that contributed to the accident? No, they can't. Nor can they confirm that a bird didn't fly into the intake of one of the helicopters.

Is it likely that pilot error was the sole cause of the accident? Probably. But until an official investigation can be carried out in its entirety, everything remains speculation and nothing more.

You may not be retarded, but you demonstrate an alarming tendency to jump to conclusions and accept them as fact. I hope your reporting doesn't reflect these tendencies.


2H4

Intentionally Left Blank
 
AirframeAS
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:08 am

I feel like I need to say this before MDorBust comes on and starts the usual "Who is to blame" rant and the Felony Murder Law: News helicopters are NOT emergency vehicles nor are they designated as official vehicles.

Someone stated earlier that there will probably be new airspace rules set in place. This, I agree with. There needs to be some airspace rules for news choppers. One of them should be about the amount of news choppers in the air covering a single event at a time. You do NOT need 5-12 news choppers covering a single event. 1-2 will do just fine. Emergency vehicles have the right of way 100% of the time over a news chopper.

Just my  twocents 
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OPNLguy
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:19 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 30):
You'd have to be retarded in order not to piece this together and with all due respect, I'm not retarded.

The NTSB sure isn't. Unlike some, they don't make immediate, definitive statements as to what "caused" a crash, preferring to take their time and investigate a range of possible causes, and by process of elimination, come to an eventual probable cause--a probable cause which may well be different from what self-pronouced "experts" had cited months earlier.

One of the areas I think is going to be looked at during the investigation are the various letters-of-agreement (LOAs) that various facilities have concerning these kinds of operations. Despite helicopter-to-helicopter communications for the purpose of maintaining their own separation from one another, the proximity can be close. Between using 2 VHF radios (ATC, and air-to-air with the other helicopters), an intercom with the photographer, a radio to the studio folks, and maybe tossing in some police/fire/EMS scanners, information overload and task saturation are not hard to envision as possibilities. Add a possible mechanical or weather-related issue, and it can get even easier to tip over the apple cart.

I suspect one of the NTSB's eventual final report recommendations will be that media operations should consist of a minimum crew of three (pilot, photographer, and reporter), or two (a pilot, and a photographer/reporter), the common element being that the pilot flies, and does nothing else.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
stlgph
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:25 am

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 32):

News has always gone higher than lifeflights/police copters.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 31):

And I can also sit here and watch the video of the two copters colliding, too, and stick with what I see and what's going on on the audio. KSAZ has the whole thing on tape.

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 33):
the common element being that the pilot flies, and does nothing else.

And that's no different than it is now.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
OB1504
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:31 am

Does anybody else think that this would make a really good Law & Order episode, focusing on one of the ADAs trying to charge the suspect with the deaths of the pilots and reporters?
 
2H4
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RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:32 am




Quoting STLGph (Reply 34):
And that's no different than it is now.

....Not according to a pilot for KHOU:

If it’s a big story, then the station will break-in to the regular programming, and take your video, and if the pilot is under contract to talk, his live report of what is going on at the scene.

Of course, you will be doing all the “pilot” things like dealing with Class B airspace areas, talking to control towers to get clearance into their airspace and keeping track of the police helicopters, EMS helicopters, private aircraft and traffic reporting airplanes. Add to that the news producer talking in your ear telling you "30 seconds until your live shot" and you have a very high workload that you must be able to handle and respond to quickly.

To make the "big bucks" as an ENG pilot, you need to do a bunch of "on-the-air" reports and become part of the news team.

If you want to do on-the-air and fly, you will need to sell you "reporter" skills and voice talent to the station. Make a promo tape of yourself. If you can do audio and video, while flying, would be best.



2H4

Intentionally Left Blank
 
graphic
Posts: 1293
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2006 10:41 am

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:51 am

Gavin, you're typical of american media today: Report first, ask later...if it matters.
Demand Media fails at life
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9865
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 4:52 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 34):
News has always gone higher than lifeflights/police copters.

Not always....see here:

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 9):
Other times the noise of the chopper hinders verbal and radio communication during crucial periods during a rescue. I've also had to tell inbound EMS helicopters to go-around because a news chopper has darted into the path of its approach.

 checkmark  This happens quite frequently, STLGph.

In the other thread in Civ-Av, somebody write a post about rotor-wash. A copter was covering an accident and the news copter's rotorwash went all over the scene. That copter's pilot was forced to land and was ticketed for alot of violations including interfering with an investigation and also for obstruction of justice. This exactly WHY we need a regulated airspace. News choppers have no respect for these kinds of things. Tucson Police Department is spot on with their use of choppers policy.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11269
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:00 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 37):

Yeah, it'd be really awesome if all the video and audio changed over time. It'd really prove the hell out of that evolution theory now wouldn't it.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 36):

The pilot taking part in the action is no different than a cameraman being there and taking part of the action as well. The cameraman for a ground crew's job is to primarily make the shot and make sure the audio is working at the point of filming. But since they are there and out in the field and get the "first hand experience," of course they will contribute to the overall element of the scene. If you've ever driven in a car through heavy traffic and have been on your cell phone or been talking to other passengers in the car, then it is the same type of scenario.

The one thing addressed in the article that I do not agree with or like is the practice of split shifts that some stations do. Send them up from 530am-830am and then again from 430pm-730pm.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
AirTranTUS
Posts: 3313
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 9:12 am

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:11 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 34):
And I can also sit here and watch the video of the two copters colliding, too, and stick with what I see and what's going on on the audio. KSAZ has the whole thing on tape.

You may see that, but the video does not show any other contributing factors that 2H4 mentioned. You can also listen to the ABC 15 reporter during the crash, but that does not disprove problems with the Channel 3 chopper.

Pilot error cannot be assumed just yet. Like 2H4 said, it is likely, but we do not know all the facts.
I love ASO!
 
stlgph
Posts: 11269
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:12 am

Quoting STLGph (Reply 39):
The pilot taking part in the action

is also attributed to the fact that communications between pilot and photographer on board is what is channeled into the studio's audio system.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:17 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 33):
the common element being that the pilot flies, and does nothing else.



Quoting STLGph (Reply 34):
And that's no different than it is now.



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 36):
....Not according to a pilot for KHOU:

If it's a big story, then the station will break-in to the regular programming, and take your video, and if the pilot is under contract to talk, his live report of what is going on at the scene.

You beat me to it... I've seen a video report since the PHX crash where a small fixed camera with a wide-angle lens is focused on the pilot as he is flying along, and he's narrating pretty much the same stuff that was in the article you quoted.

While it appears that it's done both ways, I wouldn't be surprised to see a NTSB recommendation to FAA to codify piloting-only duties in the FARs, so everyone does it the same way.

If the NTSB ends up recommending more restrictions, I'm sure the media industry will, in response, try to spin PHX as an isolated event. True, it may have never happened before, but it has now, and if it can happen once, it can again happen again.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:18 am




Quoting STLGph (Reply 39):
The pilot taking part in the action is no different than a cameraman being there and taking part of the action as well. The cameraman for a ground crew's job is to primarily make the shot and make sure the audio is working at the point of filming. But since they are there and out in the field and get the "first hand experience," of course they will contribute to the overall element of the scene. If you've ever driven in a car through heavy traffic and have been on your cell phone or been talking to other passengers in the car, then it is the same type of scenario.

In reply 34, you claimed that the pilots fly, and do nothing else.

Then, in reply 39 (above), you contradict yourself, and describe how pilots multitask, and liken it to talking in a cell phone in a car.

Based on the account of an actual news pilot I posted, I think it's pretty clear that they are having to concentrate on significantly more than flying the aircraft. In my opinion, this places people at a higher risk than necessary, and the news tasks should be divided from the flying duties.


2H4

Intentionally Left Blank
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 43):
and describe how pilots multitask, and liken it to talking in a cell phone in a car.

..and we all know just how well that works....  Yeah sure

Could it be that's why some states are banning driver cellphone use while the car is in motion? Nah, couldn't be...

Additionally, with driving with a cellphone, you're looking at just two activities. With the media helo pilot, you're looking at the flying itself, maintaining separation from those nearby (with restricted visibility aft), listening to multiple audio sources (ATC, air-to-air, intercom, link to studio, etc.) and also trying to maneuver to the aircraft so the photographer can get/keep the shot.

Sounds like it would be a common-sense regulation to me...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
AirframeAS
Posts: 9865
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 3:56 pm

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:38 am

Quoting OPNLguy (Reply 42):
I wouldn't be surprised to see a NTSB recommendation to FAA to codify piloting-only duties in the FARs, so everyone does it the same way.

I agree. The F.A..A. will post out a NPRM in the light of this before it becomes a F.A.R. I hope there will be changes in the law. The pilot is there to fly, not report the news, plain and simple. It's common sense!
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
stlgph
Posts: 11269
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 43):
In reply 34, you claimed that the pilots fly, and do nothing else.

And you do need to listen closely to the broadcasts of the pilots when you watch these shots from now on because this is still the case.

When I went up in the copters in St. Louis, the pilot would often relay the information verbally on what he was seeing ... almost like giving a narrative as he was driving along a road. The reason for this being is that when he was speaking, the channels would be heard by the photographer who would adjust the on board cameras or alert him turns he was making etc etc. If he saw something explode or action happening, he'd verbally state what he was seeing and where he was going with the craft. This also not only served as a good communication tool with the photographer, but the channels would be heard by the other pilots as well and thus everyone else in the air would know where they are going.

In many stations with air copters, the photographer is just as much of a pilot as the pilot and they'd hand off control as necessary. You'll rarely hear more than one voice out of a news helicopter talking to someone that is -not- in the helicopter.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:52 am




Quoting STLGph (Reply 46):
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 43):
In reply 34, you claimed that the pilots fly, and do nothing else.

And you do need to listen closely to the broadcasts of the pilots when you watch these shots from now on because this is still the case.

So is the pilot from KHOU I quoted lying, or simply unclear on what he does for a living? Because, according to him, his duties consist of significantly more than just flying the aircraft.

Quoting STLGph (Reply 46):
You'll rarely hear more than one voice out of a news helicopter talking to someone that is -not- in the helicopter.

It doesn't matter who the pilot talks to, or whether that party is inside or outside of the machine. If he or she is dividing his or her attention away from the duties of flying the aircraft, it's unsafe. Period.


2H4

Intentionally Left Blank
 
stlgph
Posts: 11269
Joined: Tue Oct 12, 2004 4:19 pm

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:11 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 47):
If he or she is dividing his or her attention away from the duties of flying the aircraft, it's unsafe. Period.

And that brings us back to a pilot error issue that I addressed earlier.

But at any rate, you keep that little tid bit of information with you the next time you're driving down the street and riding in a car talking to the passenger/and/or driver. Or listening to the radio.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 47):
So is the pilot from KHOU I quoted lying, or simply unclear on what he does for a living? Because, according to him, his duties consist of significantly more than just flying the aircraft.

Which brings us back to what I mentioned above about sharing duties with another person.

Read what you quoted more thoroughly.

To make the "big bucks" as an ENG pilot, you need to do a bunch of "on-the-air" reports and become part of the news team. Some pilots receive two checks, one from the helicopter company and one from the TV station for a total of more than $100,000+ per year.

The only way to receive two checks is to get hired as a pilot *and* as a news photographer.

So yes, because of the sharing, a person could receive two checks. One as a pilot and then he is also hired as a reporter working full time for the station. The other guy who flies with him is just a pilot and doesn't make quite as much. Most of the time a second pilot is contracted out by the news agency from a flying service or general aviation facility.

And often times, tv affiliates contract all their flying services out in general through this company ...

http://www.metronetworks.com/

And if you're good enough to report and co-pilot/pilot, you can negotiate two separate deals and make a nice chunk of change a la Bill Houska at KSDK in St. Louis.
if assumptions could fly, airliners.net would be the world's busiest airport
 
PAHS200
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:06 am

RE: At What Cost Do We Really Need News?

Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:22 am

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 7):
I enjoy watching car chases.

I enjoy watching the report and there guest make an ass out of themsleves

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