From another thread, we were discussing the Phoenix helicopters that crashed while filming a police chase. I advocate ending police chases completely, unless there is probable cause to believe that a life-endangering crime is about to occur absent immediate apprehension of the suspect.

The reason is that police chases inherently increase the risks to everyone else on or near the road, and almost always end in a wreck. Many innocent people have died on roads, particularly in California, when they were hit by a suspect or a cop during a high speed pursuit. That suspect could be apprehended later, so why put people at risk now?

We've had several instances of late with police chases and innocent people being hurt or even killed up here. It always comes down to police discretion.

Here in YYZ, i would like to see a police helicopter in the air, but the mayor flat out refuses to even listen to advocates of a chopper. Baffling.

Quoting D L X (Thread starter): and almost always end in a wreck.

Source?? I find it real hard to believe that they "almost always end in a wreck"

Quoting D L X (Thread starter): Many innocent people have died on roads

SOME innocent people have died - certainly. As have innocent people died from plane crashes, car wrecks, and athletes participating in sporting events. Should we end air travel, car travel, and sports? Hell, those examples don't even end up putting a bad guy behind bars, and many a police chase do.

Quoting D L X (Thread starter): That suspect could be apprehended later

Maybe, maybe not. The alternative would be that the thugs would realize that they are not going to be chased, and crime would go up IMO.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2): Source??

Gene Burns, a San Francisco radio show host, complaining about too many car chases in California. (And logic. There's only two ways for them to end: crashing, and surrender. More than half are the former.)

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2): SOME innocent people have died

No, MANY. But if you're going to argue the difference between "some" and "many" I think it's time to give us your next best argument.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2): As have innocent people died from plane crashes, car wrecks, and athletes participating in sporting events. Should we end air travel, car travel, and sports?

Terrible analogy. People who died in plane crashes, car wrecks (of the non-police chase variety) and sporting events were not involved in anything initiated by law enforcement. This discussion is about the actions of law enforcement raising risks to innocent people.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2): Maybe, maybe not. The alternative would be that the thugs would realize that they are not going to be chased, and crime would go up IMO.

The evidence goes the other way. Virginia doesn't have police chases, and yet has lower crime.

Quoting D L X (Thread starter): and almost always end in a wreck.

  

Don't count the perpetrator crashing and burning . . . if the moron is running from the po-po and crashed, all the better.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3): Gene Burns, a San Francisco radio show host, complaining about too many car chases in California. (And logic. There's only two ways for them to end: crashing, and surrender. More than half are the former.)

So. See my immediate above.

The perp crashes . . . maybe gets killed . . . as long as an innocent is taken along for the ride - who gives two craps.

does anyone have any real statistics on this? Let's start with the two basic figures:

1. How many innocent people were injured last year in police chases?
2. How many police chases occured last year?

We can debate policy but our arguments should be based in fact.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4): The perp crashes . . . maybe gets killed . . . as long as an innocent is taken along for the ride - who gives two craps.

I care.

Signed, We're Nuts - Advocate for plush jails for criminals

I'm all for ending high speed chases. That way when I commit a crime, all I have to do is drive fast and the police will cease chasing me.
signed, every criminal with a vehicle capable of going over 50 mph.

While we're at it, let's stop going after someone committing a crime with a firearm. He may shoot someone if the police get involved.

Hey, there's one way to stop high speed chases: STOP when the police try to pull you over or even better: DON'T commit any offense that may require the police to stop you.

What a novel idea.

[Edited 2007-07-31 21:17:19]

Quoting D L X (Thread starter): That suspect could be apprehended later, so why put people at risk now?

  

That's a good one.

As I've said before on this often recycled topic:

1) We don't really know who they are. Sure, we might know the license plate of the car (maybe), but that doesn't tell us who the driver is. You can't go pick someone up later if you don't know who they are.
2) Letting them go only allows them to get to a location where they can arm up, fortify and take hostages.. making the situation worse.
3) Just because we aren't chasing doesn't mean they aren't going to run like mad anyways.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3): (And logic. There's only two ways for them to end: crashing, and surrender. More than half are the former.)

3) Automotive failure (out of fuel, transmission failure, tire failure etc.)
4) Forceful non-crash termination by police vehicle intervention
5) Rabbited into a dead end.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3): The evidence goes the other way. Virginia doesn't have police chases, and yet has lower crime.

This is the second time in this thread you have claimed there are not police pursuits in VA.

How do you explain the first result of a google search for "virginia police pursuit"
http://www.wvec.com/news/local/stori...ocal_072307_fatal_ax.a431cf71.html

Quote: A man died Sunday night after flipping a car during a short police pursuit. Around 11:00 p.m. police were called to a car accident on the 1000 block of Great Fork Road in Suffolk. The car was in a ditch, and a man and woman were at the scene. The woman said that she had been driving the car at the time of the accident.

Here's another one
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19373591/

And another
http://www.wdbj7.com/Global/story.asp?S=6789971

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 7): I'm all for ending high speed chases. That way when I commit a crime, all I have to do is drive fast and the police will cease chasing me. signed, every criminal with a vehicle capable of going over 50 mph.

   Exactly my thoughts too!

R

Just my 2 cents, but I don't think the need for police chases (or other non-chase high-speed driving) can ever be totally eliminated, as I just don't think it's realistic. That said, there are some departments with varying degrees of restrictive chase policies, and each agency is in the best position to determine what its local citizenry wants/needs/expects of them, and I don't think a one-size-fits-all restriction works everywhere.

If a person is running for a non-violent crime, or is arguably not a risk to the public, of course a pursuit shouldn't take place. One innocent life is too many to placate the egos of the police.

You'll always have someone that wants to flee. As for chase policies, that should be left up to the individual agencies. Most of the agencies I am familiar with will not chase unless the person has committed a violent crime or presents a credible danger to others (DUI, person with gun).

Quoting D L X (Reply 3): Gene Burns, a San Francisco radio show host, complaining about too many car chases in California.

   A liberal amongst liberals. Nice, reliable, unbiased source you have there, DLX!

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8): As I've said before on this often recycled topic:

All of MDorBust's accurate comments pretty much sum it up. Eliminating police chases is a ridiculous notion.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4): Don't count the perpetrator crashing and burning . . . if the moron is running from the po-po and crashed, all the better.

No, not all the better. And not just for my normal pro-life reason, but rather because we as a society do not want projectiles hurling down our roads and freeways. If we know that the moron will likely be injured or killed, we also know that the risks for the non-morons nearby are escalated as well. Situations that cause wrecks are dangerous for everyone.

Quoting Pope (Reply 5): 1. How many innocent people were injured last year in police chases? 2. How many police chases occured last year?

Those aren't the right questions. Those questions try to measure a ratio of innocent injuries to chases ensued. The correct thing to measure is how many innocent injuries incurred to how many innocent injuries AVERTED by the chase. I posit that extremely few injuries are averted by a chase.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 7): I'm all for ending high speed chases. That way when I commit a crime, all I have to do is drive fast and the police will cease chasing me.

Doesn't mean you won't get caught. The VAST majority of convictions are NOT the result of a police chase.

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 7): While we're at it, let's stop going after someone committing a crime with a firearm. He may shoot someone if the police get involved.

Another bad analogy. No one has ever said do not try to apprehend criminals. (DUH!!) This thread is about high speed chases. Furthermore, if someone is using a gun while committing a crime, doesn't that suggest to you that there may be probable cause that someone's life is endandged absent immediate apprehension? (Which of course as I said in the OP is the exception for initiating a chase.)

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8): That's a good one.

I'm glad you liked it. The old "I will laugh at you, and therefore defeat your argument" trick. Well done.  

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8): 1) We don't really know who they are. Sure, we might know the license plate of the car (maybe), but that doesn't tell us who the driver is. You can't go pick someone up later if you don't know who they are.

There are other ways to catch a crook that have worked for as long as we've had crooks.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8): 2) Letting them go only allows them to get to a location where they can arm up, fortify and take hostages.. making the situation worse.

Speculation. You don't even know if this is a violent offense yet.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8): 3) Just because we aren't chasing doesn't mean they aren't going to run like mad anyways.

More speculating. (But it should be pretty obvious to those playing at home that people who aren't being chased don't have as much incentive to run.)

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8): This is the second time in this thread you have claimed there are not police pursuits in VA

No it's not... look again.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8): How do you explain the first result of a google search for "virginia police pursuit" http://www.wvec.com/news/local/stori....html

I see a chase that ended in a crash. Actually, I see three chases that ended in crashes.

I stand corrected that Virginia police never use chases, but I maintain that Virginia police use the chase much more sparingly than other jurisdictions. Additionally, your sources show that these chases indeed endangered lives.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 13): A liberal amongst liberals. Nice, reliable, unbiased source you have there, DLX!

Are you freakin' serious?!

Dude, for one,    because you try to defeat an argument by saying "he's a liberal, so he must be wrong."

Secondly,    because he is most definitely and outwardly NOT a liberal. You didn't do your homework.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14): The VAST majority of convictions are NOT the result of a police chase.

That's far too sweeping a statement to hold any credibility whatsoever. You need to refine it to chases that have resulted in a conviction and then supply some reliable (not liberal radio hosts) unbiased sources.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14): There are other ways to catch a crook that have worked for as long as we've had crooks.

I'd like to see the list, with sources.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14): Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4): Don't count the perpetrator crashing and burning . . . if the moron is running from the po-po and crashed, all the better. No, not all the better.

Yes, all the better. No tax dollars to waste prosecuting and housing the moron. . . .and it's a self-inflicted wound. Crashed while running from the police . . .    Too Bad, So Sad . . .

Still haven't seen a source to back this up:

Quoting D L X (Thread starter): almost always end in a wreck.

Quoting D L X (Thread starter): Many innocent people have died on roads, particularly in California, when they were hit by a suspect or a cop during a high speed pursuit.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3): Gene Burns, a San Francisco radio show host

Well, there goes your credibility, sunshine.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3): There's only two ways for them to end: crashing, and surrender. More than half are the former

Hmmm... Maybe in California, where everytime a dog shits there's a news helicopter there to catch it live for the sensationalism-loving subhumans.

Here, in the Twin Cities metro area, maybe 5% of all chases end in a crash. And very few of them end with anyone getting hurt.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 12): Most of the agencies I am familiar with will not chase unless the person has committed a violent crime or presents a credible danger to others (DUI, person with gun).

Which as I mentioned are the sensible reasons to initiate a chase (if there is probable cause that the person with a gun might use it).

I'm actually kind of surprised with the responses here from the pro-gun people. I would think you'd say "let him run! Since there are so many of us law-abiding gun toters, we'll just shoot him ourselves when we see him."  

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 18): Quoting D L X (Reply 3): Gene Burns, a San Francisco radio show host Well, there goes your credibility, sunshine.

Do you even know who Gene Burns is? Go do your homework.


(Here's a hint: he's a conservative/libertarian!)

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 16): That's far too sweeping a statement to hold any credibility whatsoever.

Are you kidding me?

Do the math: how many police chases are there in a day? Compare that to how many arrests there are in a day.

Q.E.D.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17): Still haven't seen a source to back this up:

That will take time. I'll look at it when I'm not at work. But, all the news stories we've seen on this thread as "evidence" back up my claim. (Cue MDorBust going on google looking for news stories saying the opposite.)

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 18): Here, in the Twin Cities metro area, maybe 5% of all chases end in a crash. And very few of them end with anyone getting hurt.

Since we're calling out sources, I call this one out.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17): Still haven't seen a source to back this up: Quoting D L X (Thread starter): Many innocent people have died on roads, particularly in California, when they were hit by a suspect or a cop during a high speed pursuit.

www.kristieslaw.org

Biased, but disagree with facts if you want. More than 2500 innocent people killed since 1982 in chases, apparently. More than 100 police officers.

Once again, if they're not running from a violent crime, or aren't a violent risk to the public, don't chase them.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 13): A liberal amongst liberals. Nice, reliable, unbiased source you have there, DLX!

Quoting D L X (Reply 15): Secondly, because he is most definitely and outwardly NOT a liberal. You didn't do your homework.

I think he goes as a libertarian...but the station is the most listened to talk station in San Francisco, perhaps the most liberal city in America.

Quoting D L X (Reply 15): Dude, for one, because you try to defeat an argument by saying "he's a liberal, so he must be wrong."

He's not trying to defeat it, he's trying to show that just beacuse a one-sided talk show host says it doesn't mean it's true...it would be like Lou Dobbs or Ann Coulter saying it was true - clearly, that doesn't mean it's true.

Quoting SW733 (Reply 22): He's not trying to defeat it, he's trying to show that just beacuse a one-sided talk show host says it doesn't mean it's true...it would be like Lou Dobbs or Ann Coulter saying it was true - clearly, that doesn't mean it's true.

On the contrary. He is saying "because he is a liberal amongst liberals, I don't have to bother listening to him -- he's already wrong."

Funny thing is, I didn't realize this was a liberal vs. conservative thing at all. Anyone who argues that "if it was said by a liberal, it is wrong" gets a big   .

Quoting D L X (Reply 20): Since we're calling out sources, I call this one out.

How about 28 years of personal experience. Good enough?

Quoting D L X (Reply 20): Do you even know who Gene Burns is?

An anti-government loudmouth. He reminds me of an old antiestablishmentarian that forgot this is the 21st century.

Quoting D L X (Reply 23): On the contrary. He is saying "because he is a liberal amongst liberals, I don't have to bother listening to him -- he's already wrong." Funny thing is, I didn't realize this was a liberal vs. conservative thing at all. Anyone who argues that "if it was said by a liberal, it is wrong" gets a big .

Can you prove that's what he was saying, or are you going off how you translated it? Because I don't see anywhere after that where he said "because he is a liberal amongst liberals, I don't have to bother listening to him -- he's already wrong". If that's how you translated it, and I wrote how I translated it, why am I wrong? There are liberal and biased news hosts out there...doesn't mean they're right or wrong, but it does mean they usually have a specific agenda.

Ok, so IFEMaster did bring up the liberal topic, but it didn't become a liberal vs. conservative topic...it became a biased vs. unbiased topic. Don't feel attacked just because people are questioning your possibly questionable source.

[Edited 2007-07-31 22:55:30]

D L X, in the PHX Helicopter crash thread, you said, among other things, "I think that the police should almost NEVER initiate a chase", and "The cop has radioed in your license plate number before he ever stops you. So, this plan of speeding off because you don't want a traffic ticket would mean you can never go home, since the cops will meet you there." and "A chase should NEVER EVER ensue over a simple traffic stop. Never.".

With regard to the first statement, I agree 100% with you and you should know, we truly never ("NEVER") initiate a chase. The criminal fleeing from us initiates the chase. Your second statement regarding the plate number being radioed in is not always accurate. It's possible that "A" plate number has been radioed in (assuming the vehicle in question actually has a plate on it) but that's no guarantee the plate on the vehicle is the one that belongs there. Quite often, crooks will replace a vehicle plate with a stolen plate, prior to committing a crime. The reasons for this are obvious. Some crooks will actually steal a plate off a vehicle of the same make and year (or as close as they can get) so that when an officer runs the plate, it appears to come back to the vehicle it's currently on (which is why when we get plate info back, it not only lists the type of vehicle it should be on but also the registered owner and the VIN of the vehicle it's registered to). Crooks who don't want to go to the trouble of switching plates will simply steal a car, do their crime, and then dump the car. Point being, your assumptions that just because the vehicle we're pursuing has a plate on it means we automatically know the identity of the person fleeing is incorrect. With regard to your feelings that chases should never ever ("NEVER EVER") ensue over a simple traffic stop, sir you simply don't have the knowledge or experience to make such a sweeping statement. Any cop will tell you that a significant number of "good" arrests (ie: wanted felons or those who plan to or have just committed a felony) come from the "simple traffic stop". Also, as strange as it may seem, rarely if ever do wanted felons walk up to an officer and say, "I just carjacked this vehicle and shot the owner to death....arrest me please". And here's a little insight for you; criminals typically don't take care of their vehicles; meaning they'll be late renewing their registration (usually due to outstanding warrants or not having insurance), or they'll let a burned out headlight go unchanged, or they'll let that broken tail light go unfixed and quite often, it's these simple equipment violations that can and do lead to taking a dangerous felon off the street. As I have stated in several previous threads, I despise the phrase, "routine traffic stop" or as you stated, a "simple" traffic stop. There is no such animal. Traffic stops will get an officer injured or killed just as quickly as any violence run he/she is sent to handle (I don't have current stats but they very well could be the #1 cause of officer's being killed in the line of duty).

Most, if not all departments now have strict policies that address vehicle pursuits. Several factors are taken into account by a supervising officer when making a decision as to whether or not to continue a pursuit. Those include, what is the person wanted for, traffic/road conditions, vehicle/pedestrian traffic, and current speeds of the pursuit. Quite often, more often than you can imagine, after these factors are taken into account, the pursuing officers are told to terminate the chase and we'll just "get him another day". But to simply say a chase should never ensue over a traffic stop is flawed, sir.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14): I'm glad you liked it. The old "I will laugh at you, and therefore defeat your argument" trick. Well done.

Yeah, it's almost like I didn't post anything else to counter you...

Oh wait..

Quoting D L X (Reply 14): The correct thing to measure is how many innocent injuries incurred to how many innocent injuries AVERTED by the chase.

That's also completely and totally unmeasurable.

So, you're saying that you think the proper measure for comparison, and the measure you will accept, is the measure which can't actually me quantified?

Quoting D L X (Reply 14): The VAST majority of convictions are NOT the result of a police chase.

The vast majority of convictions are in traffic court.

Pointless comparison.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14): There are other ways to catch a crook that have worked for as long as we've had crooks.

And we still apply other ways to catch crooks.

You must know that since you just said "The VAST majority of convictions are NOT the result of a police chase."

If we aren't using other methods, how are we catching these people?

Toolbox: Don't use the 20lb sledge to hang picture frames.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14): Speculation. You don't even know if this is a violent offense yet.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14): More speculating. (But it should be pretty obvious to those playing at home that people who aren't being chased don't have as much incentive to run.)

Speculation? No, personal experience. Been there done that, filed the report.
I've seen guys go to ground and gun up. I've seen (more technically heard via radio) guys TC without a single ground unit on him.

Quoting D L X (Reply 14): I see a chase that ended in a crash. Actually, I see three chases that ended in crashes.

Yeah, fleeing suspects killed themselves.

What's the problem?

Quoting D L X (Reply 14): Additionally, your sources show that these chases indeed endangered lives.

I hope you don't think that a random pull of news articles constitutes a valid statistical sampling of police pursuits.

The reason they made the news is because of how they ended. The ones that aren't so flashy don't make the news.

Quoting D L X (Reply 20): But, all the news stories we've seen on this thread as "evidence" back up my claim.

Oh well, you do think they are a valid statistical sample...

Nevermind, no point anymore.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2): Hell, those examples don't even end up putting a bad guy behind bars, and many a police chase do

So f'ing what? They are called Peace Officers for a reason. No unnecessary killing to keep the peace. The police can call off a chase and search alternate methods of capture, which pose a far smaller danger to innocent life.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2): SOME innocent people have died - certainly

Which is ridiculous. Even the CHP has admitted going to far at times.

Quoting 57AZ (Reply 12): Most of the agencies I am familiar with will not chase unless the person has committed a violent crime or presents a credible danger to others (DUI,

DUI isn't something I necessarily think chasing is a good thing for. While I agree with the basic premise of getting the person off the road as quickly as possible, I think you run into a problem when you end up have a drunk trying to play Speed Racer.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 13): A liberal amongst liberals. Nice, reliable, unbiased source you have there, DLX!

   Even if the dude was a liberal, why would his opinion not count?

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 16): That's far too sweeping a statement to hold any credibility whatsoever.

Not in the context of the quoted statement. Try reading that first.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 18): the sensationalism-loving subhumans.

Hey now, it is us sensationalism-loving subhumans who keep this country within any realm of solvency.

D L X.... Now I remember. He's that librarian libertarian guy that agrued with me and others a few weeks ago simply for the sake of arguing.

Oh no. Your not going sucker me into your game this time.

[Edited 2007-07-31 23:04:50]