Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
D L X
Topic Author
Posts: 12717
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:14 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 44):
Still an invalid argument.

nice comeback. Care to add some meat to that bone?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 44):
You still haven't replied to those of us who have said that just because we see a car, doen't mean we know who the driver is.

Yes I have. I acknowledged that I am not as familiar with police practices as the cops on this thread, but I refuse to believe that any single one of you would GIVE UP hunting a crook if you didn't catch him as a result of a high speed chase. I wholeheartedly reject that loser of an argument. You have other techniques to hunt down a crook and you use them every day. I don't need to know what they are to know they exist.

What's your next argument?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 44):
Wait.. Me having seen these very things happen doesn't count towards knowing these things happen...?

No, your seeing them (and I believe you when you say it) says that it has happen. It does not prove as you intended it to, that it will happen, or is even likely to happen.

Besides that, if you know their next move, why the hell do you need to chase?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 44):
Umm. Never said anything about liberals.

Sorry if I made it sound like I was attributing that to you. The general sentiment of the pro-police chase people here (with some exceptions) was that they don't have to give a counter argument because the source is biased, and because the source is biased, they can assume the statement to be untrue.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 43):
but he does not have the expertise to comment on issues like these.

How much expertise does it require to present a fact? You're not a cop, yet if you present a fact on this thread, I believe it. I present a counter argument to your arguments, not your facts.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
Criminal on the loose because chase was called off means risks to the people too.

I agree with that. The question is whether a criminal on the loose presents more of a danger to the public than chasing him at high speed. As I've said many times, there is a calculus you can make, aiming to determine exactly that: if there is probable cause to believe that imminent harm to another is likely, then chase. But the default should be Do Not Chase, not chase. Catching the crook at this moment is not always worth the risk of endangering innocents.

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 47):
What he's saying is that's because there's no need for a chase in the first place.

I know what he thinks. I'm saying the opposite, and I'm being just as conclusory as he is to show the point. Did you bother to ask why the vast majority of crooks don't run? And have you compared that to the number of crooks that do run but aren't chased?

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 48):
Opinions are irrelevant when you are quoting a talk show host a reliable source of unbiased, truthful fact. Which DLX was. He still hasn't provided a reliable source either.

And you have done absolutely butkis to show that I am wrong. Gene Burns is one of the most respected talk show hosts in the nation, so you've got some big bones to say "because he's a talk show host, he is unreliable."

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 49):
I will not chase unless there is a serious crime being committed...especially if I have their tags..

Note the profile folks: he's a cop.

Thank you for your discretion.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:34 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 50):
nice comeback. Care to add some meat to that bone?

No.

Your logic has become circular.

Many criminals arrested without chase -> Because they don't run -> Because they don't get chased -> Because they don't run... and on and on until the sun swells up and obliterates the solar system.

Quoting D L X (Reply 50):
You have other techniques to hunt down a crook and you use them every day.

And you've still conveniently ignored how we are supposed to hunt them down if we don't know who they are.

Quoting D L X (Reply 50):
It does not prove as you intended it to, that it will happen, or is even likely to happen.

Where did I say it WILL happen?

I presented the possibilites in not chasing

None of which are pretty

Quoting D L X (Reply 50):
Besides that, if you know their next move, why the hell do you need to chase?

Because sometimes their next move is very very bad. Just because I know what is going to happen next doesn't mean that we should let it happen.

Quoting D L X (Reply 50):
Note the profile folks: he's a cop.

He's a she.

And she's also a Canadian officer. Great respect to her, but Canada is a wee bit different that the US.

I do note though that you seem to not listen to the several US officers in this thread...
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 50):
You're not a cop, yet if you present a fact on this thread, I believe it.

Hey. DeLuXe. Kai is a cop. You've got to live like Patrick Star if you didn't notice that before.

[Edited 2007-08-01 03:08:10]
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
IFEMaster
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:50 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 50):
And you have done absolutely butkis to show that I am wrong.

 rotfl  Right, because the onus is upon me to prove you're wrong rather than upon you to back up your ludicrous idea! Brilliant!
Delivering Anecdotes of Dubious Relevance Since 1978
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2740
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 50):
Note the profile folks: he's a cop.

Greasy is actually a female officer, and a brand new one at that. She said if she has the tags, she won't chase unless a serious crime has been committed. I mean her no disrespect when I say this but, I'm curious how she can determine if the tags she has truly reflects the identity of the person(s) she's decided not to pursue.

Look, I respect your opinion on police pursuits (by the way, if you truly believe they're justified in some instances, then your thread title is improper), I just think it's wrong is all. All I and the rest of the U.S. officers here are saying is, you simply cannot make a blanket statement that we should cease pursuing those who flee. Are pursuits dangerous as hell? Absolutely; for everyone, not just us and not just the shithead who's fleeing. But to give criminals carte blanche to just rabbit when they see a patrol car behind them is most definitely not the answer.
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4296
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:56 am

Quoting YooYoo (Reply 1):
Here in YYZ, i would like to see a police helicopter in the air, but the mayor flat out refuses to even listen to advocates of a chopper. Baffling.

No police choppers in YYZ??? That's surprising. YYC has 2 now.
 
n710ps
Posts: 1116
Joined: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:09 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:20 pm

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
That suspect could be apprehended later, so why put people at risk now?

This is not always the case. I tend to disagree with you though I do think that they need to be more restricted and limited. I think there are times where it may be called for other than those you stated. In Nassau County on Long Ishand where I live there is a law prohibiting chases of 5 miles or more. After 5 miles approval from the supervisor must be given though the air unit is unrestricted in persuit within reason. New York or at least the metro area meaning from Westchester through north Jersey, south Conniticut, and Long Island is an extremely densely populated area and it is extremely dangerous.
There is plenty of room for Gods animals, right next to the mashed potatoes!
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7088
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:52 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 7):
I'm all for ending high speed chases. That way when I commit a crime, all I have to do is drive fast and the police will cease chasing me.
signed, every criminal with a vehicle capable of going over 50 mph.

Agreed. Very well worded.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 24):

How about 28 years of personal experience. Good enough?

Good enough for me in my books Mark.

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 49):

No one deserves to die for speeding or running a red light.

Agreed. No one deserves to die for a egotisic manianac trying to avoid the law.

I have friend who flies choppers for our local sheriffs and it makes me wonder if hes scared at all while flying the chases through Brevard County. We have some serious accidents with I-95 going through brevard county. Trust me, it gets bad enough where we should have a device that shuts down the car yet give steerage.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15521
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:09 pm

There will always be ligament circumstances usually involving those sought for violent or serious crimes or wanted for other crimes for police to do a vehicle pursuit. Large, well run police jurisdictions will have in place good pursuit training and procedures. This has been needed not only to protect the 'innocent', but the officers and even the possible criminal they are pursuing as well as reduce the huge liability lawsuits from chases that caused deaths or serious injuries. Those high payoff lawsuits have probably been the biggest factor for limiting police chases.
Properly done training will teach the police good high speed pursuit driving, including: driving in poor weather conditions; ways they can hold down the adrenaline that gets pumped up in a chase which can often reduce the judgement the officer needs in a pursuit; ways to slow down the chase; use bump techniques to make a chased driver slow down or spin-out; use of spike strips; directing a chased car to a dead end or into a roadblock, coordinate with other officers to cut off a chased vehicle and so on.
In those police jurisdictions that have developed sound training and polices, the risks of death and injuries to innocents, the police and even the criminals are substantially reduced and the quality of final and safe apprehensions is improved.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:50 pm

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
The perp crashes . . . maybe gets killed . . . as long as an innocent is taken along for the ride - who gives two craps.

Am I to understand that you are saying that if a criminal is killed in a chase and an innocent person is killed as well, you don't care?

Something tells me that you don't think that way. But that's how it reads, and I think that's a pretty digusting position. The police should always care about protecting innocent lives whenever possible. Not that I'm opposed to car chases, I just think that the police should (and most likely do) show some discretion about when a chase is worth it and when it isn't.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
D L X
Topic Author
Posts: 12717
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 2:45 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 40):
So in 25 years 2500 people have died (approx 100 people/yr) . Obviously its a tragedy whenever an innocent person dies but by no means indicative of a massive problem.

Then why do we investigate plane crashes? I don't know if we've had more or less than 2500 people die in plane crashes in the last 25 years, but it's comparable. But there's absolutely no way we'd go without investigating a plane crash. Even though only 100 or so people died and many thousands in the same hour landed safely, it's obviously of paramount importance to try to improve our system so that people don't die in the future. Why is it different for police activity?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 51):
Your logic has become circular.

No it has not. You're incorporating other people's arguments into mine to make it circular.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 51):
And you've still conveniently ignored how we are supposed to hunt them down if we don't know who they are.

AGAIN.... I refuse to believe that law enforcement gives up on those that it does not catch via a high speed chase. Are you honestly suggesting that you have no way to find them if you don't know who they are? Honestly? If so, I call bullshit. You have descriptions, you have evidence. You have witnesses, you have detectives. Don't give me this bullshit of "if we don't chase them now, we'l never find them." If that's your position, that's an utter disgrace to investigative law enforcement everywhere. Shame.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 51):
Where did I say it WILL happen?

The only way your argument makes sense is if you believe that those were the natural results of not chasing. In other words, you believe those things WILL happen without a chase. Otherwise, your argument makes no sense (but I will listen if you explain it. Believe it or not, I do respect your experiences.)

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 51):
I presented the possibilites in not chasing

And an alien might land and blow the crook up. Seriously, I don't give a flying flip about what is possible, only what is likely. Unless you can tell me a good reason why I should care about the things that are unlikely.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 51):
Because sometimes their next move is very very bad. Just because I know what is going to happen next doesn't mean that we should let it happen.

If you know what's going to happen next, you are in the advantage to prevent it from happening.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 51):
I do note though that you seem to not listen to the several US officers in this thread...

I listen to itsjustme. Very respectable opinions from an even keel guy, as history has shown. He's not the gung ho, "I'm gonna get you, sucka" kind of cop, and he very clearly thinks out his responses before he speaks. Extremely respectable.

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 52):
Hey. DeLuXe. Kai is a cop. You've got to live like Patrick Star if you didn't notice that before.

I don't know who Patrick Star is, but thanks for the heads up. Doesn't hurt my argument though -- considering I said that I believe him when he presents a fact.

By the way, I thought you peaced out, unwilling to debate a crazy libertarian like me...  Yeah sure

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 53):
Right, because the onus is upon me to prove you're wrong rather than upon you to back up your ludicrous idea! Brilliant!

I wouldn't talk about ludicrous statements when you very clearly stated that because Gene Burns is a liberal, things he says can't be trusted. You're going to have to do better than that.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 54):
the way, if you truly believe they're justified in some instances, then your thread title is improper

i respect that, and I do truly believe that high speed chases are sometimes justified. But "End the Practice of Police Chases Except In the Event That There Is Probable Cause To Believe Imminent Harm Will Likely Result Absent the Chase" was too long a title. I made clear what my exception was in the OP (which I believe to be most reasonable, and MDorBust, ANCflyer, IFEmaster, KaiGwyer, AsstChief, etc. have not addressed), and have little sympathy for those if any that chose to argue the thread title instead of the actual post.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 54):
But to give criminals carte blanche to just rabbit when they see a patrol car behind them is most definitely not the answer.

Hey man, I'm not talking about giving any dirtbag carte blanche. Quite the contrary! Maybe it's that I have more faith in law enforcement than law enforcement does! You've got helicopters, nightscopes, tracing technologies, and a strong sense of failure when a case goes cold. I want cops to use those things. You're not working alone. You have a network of other cops (and truckers!) to help you apprehend someone. And if it's a nonviolent crime, it really just isn't worth it to escalate the dangers involved. (Another point that not a single person, MDorBust, IFEmaster, KaiGwyer, or AsstChief, on this thread has refuted.)

If anyone thought I was disrespecting cops, let me put that to bed -- YOU'RE DEAD WRONG.
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2740
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 3:22 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 59):
Am I to understand that you are saying that if a criminal is killed in a chase and an innocent person is killed as well, you don't care?

I think, given the author of the post, it's a safe assumption that he meant to type,
as long as an innocent isn't taken along for the ride - who gives two craps.
 
User avatar
fr8mech
Posts: 8108
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2005 9:00 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:12 pm

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21):
Once again, if they're not running from a violent crime, or aren't a violent risk to the public, don't chase them.

And how do you know they aren't a violent risk to the public? They are already suspect in some crime (hence the chase). How is an officer to know what's in the alleged criminal's mind?

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
Another bad analogy. No one has ever said do not try to apprehend criminals. (DUH!!) This thread is about high speed chases.

The analogy is apt. I'm comparing one dangerous act, fleeing the police in a vehicle, with another, using a firearm in the commission of a crime. Both are dangerous. Both are illegal. You suggest that the police not enforce the law in one case, why not the other?

Those that flee from police are fleeing for a reason. Sometimes it's just plain stupidity. Other times there's a really good reason (in their minds) to run. Either way, they are a menace and need to be stopped.

In a passed career I saw the results of a chase gone bad and I saw the results of an abandoned chase. Both times someone died.
When seconds count, the police are minutes away, or may not come at all.
It’s hard to win an argument with a smart person, but it’s damn near impossible to win an argument with a stupid person. ~B. Murray
Ego Bibere Capulus, Ut Aliis Sit Vivere
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:13 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 60):
Are you honestly suggesting that you have no way to find them if you don't know who they are? Honestly? If so, I call bullshit. You have descriptions, you have evidence. You have witnesses, you have detectives.

If you are honestly willing to support the funding that it would require, sure... we can probably give up chasing.

For some reason though, I think you wouldn't like it when a perp runs from a traffic stop and the city spends six million dollars tracking him down. Nine or ten times a week.

Yeah, it's not Law & Order over here. All that high tech crime fighting DNA tracking, forensics investigating stuff is expensive.

So yes, if you want to give us a blank check, I'm sure we can find all those guys who run from us... in a couple months or years. Hopefully they'll be nice and not commit more crimes while we are looking for them.

Now, back in the real world... not so much. Witnesses? What witnesses? How many witnesses do you think we can canvas up from a runner on a traffic stop? I bet on the way to or from work today you saw a traffic stop at least once. You think you could give an accurate description of the driver? Don't lie, the answer is no. No one pays that level of attention while driving around. Detectives? You got an extra box of those sitting around? Can we borrow them, ours are already extremely over worked. Want to add every runner onto their case load. Are you willing to pay to double the size of our detective squad for us? Can we please have someone like Sipowicz who solves cases in 1hr, even with commercial breaks?

Quoting D L X (Reply 60):
The only way your argument makes sense is if you believe that those were the natural results of not chasing.

Uh, yeah. They are some of the natural results of not chasing.

Wouldn't that be blatantly obvious when I say I've seen these things happen?

Those are possible outcomes of letting a perp get away.

Quoting D L X (Reply 60):
And an alien might land and blow the crook up.

I haven't seen that happen.

I have seen the other things happen.

Quoting D L X (Reply 60):
Seriously, I don't give a flying flip about what is possible, only what is likely. Unless you can tell me a good reason why I should care about the things that are unlikely

No, let me take a shot at the truth.

You've got yourself a position here and you don't give a damn if it's contradicted by the people who actually live and work in the field and actually know what they are talking about because that would upset the pretty little Utopian construct you've manufactured in your head where criminals are suddenly nice guys because the evil pigs aren't chasing them anymore.

Well wake the hell up. Criminals don't want to go to jail. They don't care if the cop is ten feet behind them or ten miles behind them. They are going to run and fight like hell to keep from going to jail. They will steal cars from people. They will steal firearms from people. They will kidnap and carjack people. They will hurt and kill people. They will do any damn thing they think will buy them a moments more freedom because they know the cops are coming for them. You know why that is? Because they aren't nice people. They're criminals. They make their life hurting other people, and they aren't about to give up because the flashing blue lights aren't behind them. You mentioned witnesses earlier. How safe do you think those guys are going to be when the criminals know that since the heat isn't on their tail anymore the only thing that can send them back is a witness? Yeah, that's going to be a real sunshine day.

Quoting D L X (Reply 60):
If you know what's going to happen next, you are in the advantage to prevent it from happening.

  

Jesus, that's some funny stuff.

I put out a list of vague possibilities and you act like we're mind reading super humans.

Let's check that list again shall we?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
1) We don't really know who they are. Sure, we might know the license plate of the car (maybe), but that doesn't tell us who the driver is. You can't go pick someone up later if you don't know who they are.
2) Letting them go only allows them to get to a location where they can arm up, fortify and take hostages.. making the situation worse.
3) Just because we aren't chasing doesn't mean they aren't going to run like mad anyways.

1) - Ooops, we don't know a thing at all. Can't really use that to predict the future.
2) - He's going to go to ground, possibly gun up, fortify and take hostages. Uh, where? How many, what kind of arms... yatta yatta yatta. No future predictions here.
3) We stop chasing, he doesn't stop running. Uhh.. how do we prevent that?

So no, we don't really know what is going to happen next, and we sure as hell can't do anything to stop the wide variety of nasty things that could happen.

I wish to god we could be mind reading geniuses on the street. Instead, we just play the probabilities... heavily slanted to the worst case scenario. Remember, that's what cops are for.. keeping the worst case scenario from happening. We don't get to plan for rainbows and daisies. We get to plan for some scum bag who is out to kill little children.

I wonder, how harsh would you be on police if someone got pulled for a tail light, ran, wasn't pursued.. then a couple miles down the road decides he needs a car the cops haven't seen, so he blows grandmas brains out on the pavement and takes hers. Meanwhile, the officer who made the traffic stop is cooped in a parking lot typing up the report.

Yeah, I can see you saying, "job well done officer, at least you didn't give chase" on that one.   

Quoting D L X (Reply 60):
And if it's a nonviolent crime, it really just isn't worth it to escalate the dangers involved. (Another point that not a single person, MDorBust, IFEmaster, KaiGwyer, or AsstChief, on this thread has refuted.)

Look, I'm not going to bother anymore.

They run, we chase.
Super tells us to back off or airship takes lead, we back off.
Super tells us to stop we stop.

There are way to many crimes solved because someone ran from an equipment stop or blinkers to even consider giving up pursing in favor of a policy of maybe, hopefully, god we hope, finding them a couple months and several million dollars down the way.

You don't get it, you won't get it. I'm done. Go watch more Law & Order SVU.

[Edited 2007-08-01 09:17:42]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
flyorski
Posts: 733
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 8:23 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 4:26 pm

Quoting Fr8mech (Reply 7):
While we're at it, let's stop going after someone committing a crime with a firearm. He may shoot someone if the police get involved.

It does not need to be so extreme......

And utah is a conservative place....

Here is what the salt lake county policy is:

Salt Lake County Changes Police Chase Policy
Jun. 6, 2005

John Daley reporting

Police car chases can be dangerous, even deadly. Now, in a growing trend, Salt Lake County is changing its policy to only chase suspects in the most extreme crimes.

For years Salt Lake City and South Salt Lake have restricted police officers from beginning a pursuit unless the crime in question is a violent felony, which includes things like a murder, rape or aggravated assault. Now other agencies are doing the same.

With dash cams and chopper cams and TV shows documenting the get-away and the hot pursuit, police chases have become a staple of modern life. But in our increasingly congested cities, police agencies are reviewing the wisdom of that policy.

Paul Jaroscak/ Salt Lake County Sheriff's Dept.: "It gets harder and harder to justify some of the pursuits that are being conducted when the violations are minor."

In Salt Lake County, the decision to pursue used to be based on the judgment of the individual deputy, who considered things like what crime was committed, did they know the suspect, the road conditions.

As of June 1st the county is changing its policy to restrict pursuits only for suspects of "violent felonies."

Paul Jaroscak/ Salt Lake County Sheriff's Dept.: "This is in response obviously to the clamor right now over police pursuits and the dangerousness and the liability that's involved in these pursuits."

Murray and West Jordan now have similar policies and police chiefs have been working towards a valley-wide consensus. Not everyone is happy with the change, and some officers and agencies believe a crime-fighting tool is being taken away.

But South Salt Lake, which went to the more restricted pursuit policy three years ago, says the move has been a good one.

Capt. Tracy Tingey/ South Salt Lake Police Dept.: "To try to justify why you killed someone in a traffic accident during the course of a pursuit when the car was stolen or even worse, when the plates were just expired or something like that. And I've seen that happen time and time again throughout the years. It just can't continue."

Some agencies, including Utah Highway Patrol, West Valley City and Taylorsville, say their policies are working well and they are not changing to a "violent felonies only" pursuit policy. But some larger cities are too making the change, including the capitol of the high-speed chase, Los Angeles.
"None are more hopelessly enslaved, than those who falsly believe they are free" -Goethe
 
Delta767300ER
Posts: 2436
Joined: Tue Dec 16, 2003 7:12 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:59 pm

At the agency I work for we can only engage in a vehicle pursuit if the suspect has committed a forcible felony or is under the suspicion of DUI. You have to articulate this in your report also. A Supervisor has the right to call off a pursuit due to traffic conditions/volume, road conditions, weather/time of day conditions, manpower issues, ect. I understand high speed pursuits are extremely dangerous for the Officer, suspect, and the public however some offenses warrant a chase.

Different agencies have other protocol, but this is for my agency. I cannot speak for others.

-Delta767300ER
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 15799
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:22 pm

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
I advocate ending police chases completely, unless there is probable cause to believe that a life-endangering crime is about to occur absent immediate apprehension of the suspect.

Fact of the matter is that the moment you outlaw police chases, more criminals will become emboldened to run from the police.

After all, if they're not allowed to chase you - what do you have to lose by NOT running?


Banning police chases will only encourage more and more criminals to recklessly endanger the lives of the innocent by running from the police.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:25 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 2):Source??
Gene Burns, a San Francisco radio show host,

I guess that settles it then - cause if good ole Gene says so, it must be gospel.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
I think it's time to give us your next best argument.

It's been time for you to do this.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
This discussion is about the actions of law enforcement raising risks to innocent people.

No, this discuusion seems to be about YOUR OPINION. One which many here disagree with.

Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
Virginia doesn't have police chases,

Wrong. And so is your lame attempt to correct yourself. Virginia State Police have no such policy. Nor can I find any locality in VA that does.

www.vsp.state.va.us

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
The old "I will laugh at you, and therefore defeat your argument"

Like you did in reply three? You're a freaking hypocrite - POT-KETTLE-BLACK!

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
I see a chase that ended in a crash. Actually, I see three chases that ended in crashes.

But you said they don't chase.
 
User avatar
KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 8:53 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 46):
I was using that as an example of why most arrests are conducted without a chase.

Unconnected to the next thought.

Ah gotcha  Smile

Quoting D L X (Reply 50):
How much expertise does it require to present a fact? You're not a cop, yet if you present a fact on this thread, I believe it. I present a counter argument to your arguments, not your facts.

I'm not a cop (yet), but I do have a Bachelors degree in Law Enforcement and I am also a Police Reserve Officer. So I feel that I know what I'm talking about. Ask me about radio stuff, and I would have no clue while as a radio talk show host would (should anyways)

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 52):
Hey. DeLuXe. Kai is a cop. You've got to live like Patrick Star if you didn't notice that before.

Not yet, and who is Patrick Star?  Silly

Quoting D L X (Reply 60):
"End the Practice of Police Chases Except In the Event That There Is Probable Cause To Believe Imminent Harm Will Likely Result Absent the Chase" was too long a title. I made clear what my exception was in the OP (which I believe to be most reasonable, and MDorBust, ANCflyer, IFEmaster, KaiGwyer, AsstChief, etc. have not addressed),



Quoting D L X (Reply 60):
And if it's a nonviolent crime, it really just isn't worth it to escalate the dangers involved. (Another point that not a single person, MDorBust, IFEmaster, KaiGwyer, or AsstChief, on this thread has refuted.)

I'll cover both these in one answer, as they are related. While I don't know our pursuit policy by heart (if you really want to know, I can look it up this weekend), I know that it is fairly restrictive. And being that we are a small town, most of the crooks are known, so if they are pulled over, we know where they live anyways. So like I said earlier, chases are extremely rare here (and in Minnesota in general).
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:53 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 14):
Those aren't the right questions. Those questions try to measure a ratio of innocent injuries to chases ensued. The correct thing to measure is how many innocent injuries incurred to how many innocent injuries AVERTED by the chase. I posit that extremely few injuries are averted by a chase.

Well your statement, while perfectly valid, is really only 1/2 of the analysis. Like with all decisions the costs need to be weighed against the benefits. Here, you discuss the harm foregone (the benefit). I want to understand the harm caused (the cost). Unfortunately, it's very difficult to measure the harm foregone in this scenario because you're trying to measure something which hasn't occured.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
D L X
Topic Author
Posts: 12717
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:25 pm

Quoting Fr8Mech (Reply 62):
The analogy is apt. I'm comparing one dangerous act, fleeing the police in a vehicle, with another, using a firearm in the commission of a crime. Both are dangerous. Both are illegal. You suggest that the police not enforce the law in one case, why not the other?

No dude, your analogy is very poor. I've never said that police should not hunt down and prosecute those that flee police. I said (probably for the 30th time now) that they shouldn't engage in a high speed pursuit, except for the exceptions I noted. You did read that part, right?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 63):
I think you wouldn't like it when a perp runs from a traffic stop and the city spends six million dollars tracking him down.

I think you're not a very good cop if you require 6 million dollars to hunt down a traffic stop runner.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 63):
How many witnesses do you think we can canvas up from a runner on a traffic stop?

Stop making excuses! If you aren't going to bother looking for witnesses then you're not doing your duty.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 63):
I bet on the way to or from work today you saw a traffic stop at least once. You think you could give an accurate description of the driver?

More freakin' excuses! I can give you a very good description to continue the hunt. Red Ford Explorer, probably early 2000s, dent in the side, roof rack, driven by a man. And if you asked someone else that saw it, she might be able to give you additional information. Don't make excuses.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 63):
They are some of the natural results of not chasing.

They are some POSSIBILITIES of not chasing, but they are not the natural results. (What I mean by natural result is a given -- you know that it will happen with near certainty. A ball falling down is the natural result of someone tossing that ball into the air.)

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 63):
You've got yourself a position here and you don't give a damn if it's contradicted by the people who actually live and work in the field and actually know what they are talking about because that would upset the pretty little Utopian construct you've manufactured in your head where criminals are suddenly nice guys because the evil pigs aren't chasing them anymore.

No dude, you've completely misrepresented me. I don't want you to say that you have to chase based on some unlikely possibility. I only care about likely possibilities. You talk about wasting precious resources out of one side of your mouth, but then you're willing to expend resources chasing unlikely possibilities?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 63):
I put out a list of vague possibilities and you act like we're mind reading super humans.

At least you're admitting that they are unlikely now.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 63):
Quoting D L X (Reply 60):
And if it's a nonviolent crime, it really just isn't worth it to escalate the dangers involved. (Another point that not a single person, MDorBust, IFEmaster, KaiGwyer, or AsstChief, on this thread has refuted.)

Look, I'm not going to bother anymore.

DUDE! Why can't you address this? Instead of arguing against my main point, you're trying to attack ancillary issues.

Just give me one reason why it's okay to chase someone who fled when you tried to pull him over for running a red light.

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 67):
Like you did in reply three? You're a freaking hypocrite - POT-KETTLE-BLACK!

What?! I haven't laughed at anyone.

[Edited 2007-08-01 15:28:48]
 
yooyoo
Posts: 5684
Joined: Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:01 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:39 pm

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 55):
No police choppers in YYZ??? That's surprising. YYC has 2 now

It's true. A few years back there was a company ready to give a chopper service for free. Exact details i really don't know about, but the Mayor would not even sit and discuss their proposal. The Mayor thinks he can just borrow the York Region helicopter or the Durham Region chopper when he needs it. I live in the Durham region so i'm happy that we have one and i see it very often flying around. Mayor Miller is a strange fellow, it's a wonder how he gets re-elected. Police chases with chopper support is i feel safer and even more adequate.
I am so smart, i am so smart... S-M-R-T... i mean S-M-A-R-T
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2740
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:52 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 70):

Food for thought D L X: Your 5 year old daughter is playing in your front yard and is abducted (see Samantha Runnion case). The guy takes off, turns the corner and 2 blocks away, slides through a stop sign in front of me. I light up, attempt to make a.....what was that you called it....oh yeah....a "simple traffic stop". Child abductor doesn't yield and he flees. All I want him for at this point is a stop sign violation which of course doesn't meet your criteria that warrants chasing the fleeing motorist. In your world, I don't pursue and chances are pretty strong that you'll never see your daughter alive again. In my world, I pursue and chances are pretty strong we'll apprehend the fleeing driver and your daughter will be returned to you. You tell me; whose world do you prefer to live in?
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:21 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 68):
Not yet, and who is Patrick Star?

Spongebob's friend. He lives under a rock.

Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
User avatar
KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:25 pm

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 73):
Spongebob's friend. He lives under a rock.

That'd be why I didn't know  Smile
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
D L X
Topic Author
Posts: 12717
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:27 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 72):
Food for thought D L X: Your 5 year old daughter is playing in your front yard and is abducted (see Samantha Runnion case). The guy takes off, turns the corner and 2 blocks away, slides through a stop sign in front of me. I light up, attempt to make a.....what was that you called it....oh yeah....a "simple traffic stop". Child abductor doesn't yield and he flees. All I want him for at this point is a stop sign violation which of course doesn't meet your criteria that warrants chasing the fleeing motorist. In your world, I don't pursue and chances are pretty strong that you'll never see your daughter alive again. In my world, I pursue and chances are pretty strong we'll apprehend the fleeing driver and your daughter will be returned to you. You tell me; whose world do you prefer to live in?

We can all brainstorm fringe cases where a negative result would happen absent a chase. That doesn't mean we should chase. Your hypo relies on hindsight knowledge (that the cop knows that the guy that ran the stop sign is a child abductor). What's more likely given the situation as you would experience it, is that the guy that ran the stop sign was not a child abductor.

Besides that, if you initiate a chase, it's likely that my daughter would be seriously injured or killed in the likely wreck at the end of the chase. You're throwing gasoline on the fire -- you're taking an already tense situation, and adding kinetic energy.

We could of course turn this around, you know. Your 5 year old daughter is out playing on your front yard when out of nowhere, a deranged loon driving a stolen car flies our of control around a corner because he is being chased by a phalanx of cops. The loon hops the curb and strikes your 5 year old. An hour later she dies. What are you going to say about the cops that initiated the police chase when you discover that they chased because he ran a stop sign and didn't pull over on command?
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:34 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 74):
That'd be why I didn't know

Do you also live under a rock?  Smile

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
User avatar
KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:43 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 76):
Do you also live under a rock?

At least I don't live in a pineapple under the sea  Smile
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
D L X
Topic Author
Posts: 12717
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:51 pm

BTW, Itsjustme, I do sympathize with your scenario from reply 75. It's very possibly a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. If you do chase, and someone gets hurt, you'll have enraged people hiring lawyers to sue the squad for the chase. If you don't case, and the child dies, you'll have enraged people hiring lawyers to sue the squad for not going after the guy when you had him in sight. It's messed up. I just want you (all) to know that I am looking at both sides of the issue when I talk about it.
 
57AZ
Posts: 2371
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 2004 2:55 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting Greasespot (Reply 49):
I will not chase unless there is a serious crime being committed...especially if I have their tags..

Agreed. No need to place yourself or the public at risk for such a lowly misdemeanor when you can send the registered owner a citation by mail.
"When a man runs on railroads over half of his lifetime he is fit for nothing else-and at times he don't know that."
 
User avatar
WildcatYXU
Posts: 3210
Joined: Sat May 06, 2006 2:05 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:58 pm

I have one question to the topic: How often would an otherwise law abiding citizen flee after he committed a traffic violation only? IMO an ordinary guy like me has nothing to gain but everything to lose by running. If I get caught on speeding for example and I get nailed by the judge for it, it's still only money. But in the moment I press the accelerator instead of the brake when I see the lit up squad car I'm entering an entirely different world.
So does it ever happen and if yes, how often?
310, 319, 320, 321, 321N, 332, 333, 343, 345, 346, 732, 735, 73G, 738, 744, 752, 753, 762, 763, 77L, 77W, 788, AT4, AT7, BEH, C402, CR2, CRA, CR9, DH1, DH3, DH4, E45, E75, E90, E95, F28, F50, F100, MD82, Saab 340, YAK40
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2740
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:24 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 75):
Your hypo relies on hindsight knowledge (that the cop knows that the guy that ran the stop sign is a child abductor).

Actually, given my department's current chase policy, there wouldn't be any hindsight knowledge necessary. I'd be within our policy to pursue until one of 2 things happened; either the pursuit ended or it was terminated by a supervising officer.

Quoting D L X (Reply 75):

Besides that, if you initiate a chase, it's likely that my daughter would be seriously injured or killed in the likely wreck at the end of the chase.

I have to take issue with your use of the word "likely". Being that the majority of pursuits end in situations other than a wreck, it's likely your daughter would NOT be seriously injured or killed.

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 81):
How often would an otherwise law abiding citizen flee after he committed a traffic violation only?

Rarely. The vast majority of law abiding citizens will immediately stop when being pulled over by the police. There are times when someone who is simply driving on a suspended license will flee but that point is moot because by driving on a suspended DL, they're not a law abiding citizen. Bottom line is, people don't run from us for no reason.
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:31 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 82):
Bottom line is, people don't run from us for no reason.

I don't think anyone here can make a valid argument to this point.

Like George Carlin says, A Police Officer should have every right to shoot your sorry ass in the back if you're running......
 
KSYR
Posts: 562
Joined: Tue Jan 03, 2006 12:45 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:43 am

The bottom line is this-If you restrict the right of police to engage in vehicle pursuits, then crime will go up. It is a simple equation of logic.

If a state trooper bluelights a car on I-95 for speeding and the car takes off and the trooper is unable to pursue, who knows what potential bust this cop missed out on. The speeding car may have been carrying drugs bound for the street, stolen weapons, a kidnapped child, a thug with a warrant out for his arrest, whatever. The cop can't see any of this; all he sees is a car that is running that he can't go after. Sure, if he gets the plate the cops can go to the house in a day or two and give the thug a speeding ticket, but by then any drugs or weapons the runner had with him will probably already be on the street.

Innocent people have been hurt and killed as the result of police chases, but far more innocents have been killed needlessly as the result of illegal drugs and weapons being present on the streets of our cities and towns. If any drug-runner finds out that all he needs to do to elude arrest and get his stash on the street is not pull over, then any efforts made at halting the trade of illegal drugs and weapons in our country will have been made futile. It is a cost vs risk problem, and in most cases the cost of chasing a suspect pales in comparison to the risk of adopting a 'no-chase' policy and giving criminals and drug/weapons runners a blank check to carry their illegal cargo freely on our interstates and roads.
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting KSYR (Reply 84):
If a state trooper bluelights a car on I-95 for speeding and the car takes off and the trooper is unable to pursue, who knows what potential bust this cop missed out on.

Most people being chased by cops are running for a reason. There's always something more sinister than a burned out brake light.
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
User avatar
KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:05 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 82):
Rarely. The vast majority of law abiding citizens will immediately stop when being pulled over by the police.

Hell some people even pull over before you light them up  Smile They know what they did wrong  Silly
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
D L X
Topic Author
Posts: 12717
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 82):
Bottom line is, people don't run from us for no reason.



Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 85):
Most people being chased by cops are running for a reason.

Irrelevant. I agree that most people have a reason to run if they choose to run. But. that does not necessarily shift the balance of costs and benefits to chase and thus raise risks for the others on or near the road.

Quoting KSYR (Reply 84):
The bottom line is this-If you restrict the right of police to engage in vehicle pursuits, then crime will go up. It is a simple equation of logic.

Bullocks. Again, I've never advocated giving up on apprehending criminals. THAT is what would cause crime to rise.

Quoting KSYR (Reply 84):
who knows what potential bust this cop missed out on.

So, you're willing to raise risks based on speculation?

Quoting KSYR (Reply 84):
The speeding car may have been carrying drugs

More speculation, and I would add that just carrying drugs is HARDLY a reason to chase this person down at this instant, elevating the risks for other law-abinding citizens. Get him in an hour, a day, a week, whatever.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 82):
Being that the majority of pursuits end in situations other than a wreck, it's likely your daughter would NOT be seriously injured or killed.

Would you deny that the risk that my daughter is exposed to just shot up?

And how about my example with your daughter?
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 19539
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting FlyDeltaJets87 (Reply 36):
So the police are the responsible ones if the idiot being chased drives off the road and macks a tree?

No, but they would, IMHO, be culpable if the idiot drives off the road and "macks" a mother and child.


The majority of car chases in the UK involve joy-riders and car theft. In many forces, they now have a policy of not chasing if they believe the public is at increased risk as a result of a chase. With the number of police choppers we have here now, many cars can be followed with the driver being blissfully unaware he's even been tagged. In most cases, as soon as a chopper is involved, any pursuing cars will back off in an attempt to defuse the situation (you'd think the perp would cotton on in these circumstances, but they don't seem to!)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2740
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 6:50 am

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 86):
Hell some people even pull over before you light them up

Or, get what's known as "Black-n-White Fever" and spaz out at the sight of patrol car (a "black and white") behind them and do something really stupid.

Quoting D L X (Reply 87):
Would you deny that the risk that my daughter is exposed to just shot up?

Maybe I haven't had enough coffee yet. Are you asking me if, by pursuing the child abductor who has just grabbed your daughter, I am increasing the risks she is exposed to compared to not pursuing the child abductor? If so, then my answer is a resounding, hell no I'm not increasing the risks. Are you crazy? Studies show that in cases where abducted kids are sexually assaulted and/or murdered, it will happen within 2-4 hours after the kidnapping. In other words, time is of the essence. How in the heck am I increasing the risks the kid is exposed to by giving pursuit? You'd prefer I just let them go and hope the shithead just takes her out for some ice cream and returns her unscathed?

Quoting D L X (Reply 87):
And how about my example with your daughter?

I guess I'd first have to see some sort statistics on the number of kids who are killed while playing in their front yard by loons in stolen cars fleeing from the police. I'm guessing not very many, if any at all. That being said, I'll go with your hypo and say that, yes, I'm in favor of continuing with allowing us to pursue fleeing criminals and take the chance of my kid being hit by a fleeing loon in stolen car compared to that of her being grabbed up while playing in the yard and the cops not being allowed to pursue.
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:09 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 89):
Or, get what's known as "Black-n-White Fever" and spaz out at the sight of patrol car (a "black and white") behind them and do something really stupid.

I get really annoyed when driving an ambulance to grab lunch and people slow down and pull over. You know how many times I have to look down to make sure I didn't accidentally bump an emergency light switch?  irked 
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7088
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:14 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 90):

I get really annoyed when driving an ambulance to grab lunch and people slow down and pull over. You know how many times I have to look down to make sure I didn't accidentally bump an emergency light switch?

I get really annoyed when a holes freeze and don't pull over.

Hunter
Never be afraid to stand up for who you are.
 
D L X
Topic Author
Posts: 12717
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:29 am

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 89):
Are you crazy?

Yes. And so am I.  Smile

Seriously, I think what you've done is traded one risk for another. I believe you when you say that studies show that abducted kids are doomed in the first 2 to 4 hours. Sounds very believable. So, you're trading the risk that they will be hurt by their abductor with the risk that they will be hurt in the police chase.

However, this takes us back to my original premise. I'd be in favor of this chase if you had probable cause (or maybe even reasonable suspicion considering the c/b analysis) to believe that a child abduction was in progress because:

Quoting D L X (Thread starter):
a life-endangering crime is about to occur absent immediate apprehension of the suspect.

Where I part with you is because you (i think, correct me if I'm wrong) would chase before you had reason to believe that a child abduction had occurred. Yes, in hindsight, of course! If you knew that guy that ran the stop sign had abducted a kid, I would ask the cop for a good reason why he didn't pursue. But when all the information you have is that 1) a driver rolled or even sped through a stop sign, and 2) didn't pull over on command, you're speculating about unlikely imminent risks that may outweigh the guaranteed risks associated with a high speed pursuit.

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 89):
I guess I'd first have to see some sort statistics on the number of kids who are killed while playing in their front yard by loons in stolen cars fleeing from the police. I'm guessing not very many, if any at all.

That again isn't the right statistic. You want to compare the cost and benefits of chasing versus the cost and benefits of not chasing. That's something like this: (likelihood of catching crook in pursuit * value of catching crook) - (likelihood of injury to innocents * severity of injury) > (likelihood of not catching crook without chase * value of catching crook) - (reduced likelihood of injury to innocents * severity of the injuries they would have had).
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 7:38 am

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 91):
a holes

assholes?
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2740
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:49 am

Quoting AsstChiefMark (Reply 90):
I get really annoyed when driving an ambulance to grab lunch and people slow down and pull over. You know how many times I have to look down to make sure I didn't accidentally bump an emergency light switch?

Just curious; do you drive the rig with it's headlights on? I see lots of EMS rigs that do so when not on a run and the EMTS wonder why people are yielding for them. 'Course the flip side to that is, when running code and you have every frickin light (including the glovebox!) and siren activated and people don't seem to hear or see you. Yet, cruise around with just your headlights on and people will drive into a ditch to get out of your way.
 
AsstChiefMark
Posts: 10465
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 2:14 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:38 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 94):
Just curious; do you drive the rig with it's headlights on?

Yep. It's been a department policy since 1982. Headlights on at all times (and they're not daytime running lights).
Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Red tail...Damned MSP...Red tail...Red tail
 
Halcyon
Posts: 1622
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 4:47 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 12:48 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 94):
seem to hear or see you.

Or get panicked and almost hit you. We also always use headlights unless wigwags are on. (And wigwags are usually off at night, unless we aren't on a major road.)
 
User avatar
KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:21 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 89):
Or, get what's known as "Black-n-White Fever" and spaz out at the sight of patrol car (a "black and white") behind them and do something really stupid.

Like go 45 in a 55mph zone with no passing zones  banghead 
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
itsjustme
Posts: 2740
Joined: Sun Apr 25, 2004 6:58 pm

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 97):
Like go 45 in a 55mph zone with no passing zones

A few years back, I had a woman who was so intent on watching me in her rear view mirror (I could literally see her eyes bobbing between the mirror and her speedometer), she didn't see the guy in front of her stop for a light and she plowed right into him. As I was writing her a skid for violation of the basic speed law (aka, failure to stop in a clear, assured distance) she actually blurted out that it was my fault because, had I not been following her, she would have had her eyes looking forward and seen the guy stop.

See what you have to look forward to when you get on the street as a full time officer?
 
User avatar
KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:03 pm

Quoting Itsjustme (Reply 98):
As I was writing her a skid for violation of the basic speed law (aka, failure to stop in a clear, assured distance) she actually blurted out that it was my fault because, had I not been following her, she would have had her eyes looking forward and seen the guy stop.

 rotfl 

What was your response to that one?  Smile
“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
 
nitrohelper
Posts: 413
Joined: Tue Mar 08, 2005 5:32 am

RE: End The Practice Of Police Chases

Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 83):
Like George Carlin says, A Police Officer should have every right to shoot your sorry ass in the back if you're running....

If every driver was shot during a chase maybe they wouldn't flee so easily ? If a person was running through a shopping mall with a gun, no one would want that to continue. A 3500 pound car at high speed is a weapon. Just shoot them first, and talk later. If they get out of the car and run, then apply the Carlin solution.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aerolimani, Baidu [Spider], GalaxyFlyer, Kent350787, N583JB, Newark727 and 88 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos