allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:22 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 49):
The fans don't vote

You care to address the rest of my remarks, though, which happen to be good points (and the other wasn't "moot", except in your opinion)? Except for any wedding band, Omar has bare fingers. That's a huge strike against him. If Brooks and Ozzie didn't have any gold on their fingers, voters would be hard pressed to justify putting them in while not voting for a guy like Santo.
Living the American Dream
 
deltairlines
Posts: 6953
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 4:47 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:29 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter):
Derek Jeter
Alex Rodriguez
Mariano Rivera
Roger Clemens
Manny Ramierz
Curt Schilling
Jim Thome
Frank Thomas
John Smolz
Tom Glavine
Greg Maddux
Randy Johnson
Craig Biggio
Omar Vizquel
Chipper Jones
Albert Pujols

I'll agree with all those except Schilling. Never really stood out as THE dominant pitcher of this generation. Maddux, Clemens and Glavine are locks due to 300 wins. Pedro was the most dominant starter of the late 1990s. Unit was downright scary in his day. Smoltz was more dominant as a starter in my opinion than Schill. Schill will come close, but I don't think it's enough for HOF. Only other close call for me on the list is Vizquel; I personally think he should be in; just don't know if the voters will approve it.

Quoting Aerobalance (Reply 4):
Vladimir Guerrero may have a chance. Also Ichiro Suzuki

Jury's still out. I think both have a really good chance; they just need to have a few more seasons. I think if Vlad gets to 500 HRs, he's in. Ichiro I think can get it if he keeps up his hitting.

Quoting AA61Hvy (Reply 8):
I'll add a wildcard: Joe Torre

I think he's in. 4 World Series championships in 5 years? I think that qualifies.

Others I think - Junior Griffey (too bad injuries have plagued him recently; it'd be scary to see where he would be today if he was healthy over the last 5 years), Hoffman (one of the best closers in baseball history) and Pudge. TLR and Cox will go in as managers in my opinion as well.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:33 pm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 50):
Except for any wedding band, Omar has bare fingers. That's a huge strike against him. If Brooks and Ozzie didn't have any gold on their fingers, voters would be hard pressed to justify putting them in while not voting for a guy like Santo.

That means nothing!

Bottom line is this: Ozzie and Omar have almost identical numbers.

Here's a few stats for you from this webpage: http://www.armchairgm.com/index.php?...and_maybe_unknown_baseball_records

With 155 games played, Omar Vizquel will become the all-time leader in games played at shortstop with 2582. He currently ranks third at 2457, trailing Ozzie Smith, (2511), and Luis Aparicio, (2581).

With 76 assists, Vizquel becomes the seventh shortstop to reach 7000 for his career.

Vizquel is the all-time fielding percentage leader at short with a .984 mark. Deivi Cruz and Neifi Perez are tied for sixth at .978, and Alex Rodriguez is tied for eleventh at .977.

With 24 double plays, Vizquel becomes the all-time leader at 1591, passing Ozzie Smith. .


One of my own: Ozzie had 2460 hits. Omar has (and counting) 2567 hits. He's in his 19th season, and still playing.

Now, tell me again Omar should not be in the Hall? Fact is, they BOTH deserve to be in the Hall, and they both will, a few years after Omar hangs it up.

Quoting DeltAirlines (Reply 51):
Others I think - Junior Griffey (too bad injuries have plagued him recently; it'd be scary to see where he would be today if he was healthy over the last 5 years),

Steriod Bonds would be a side-show. He would have made the 800 plateau, I'm convinced.

[Edited 2007-08-08 05:35:23]
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:46 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 52):
Now, tell me again Omar should not be in the Hall? Fact is, they BOTH deserve to be in the Hall, and they both will, a few years after Omar hangs it up.

I'm not saying he shouldn't - personally, I don't much care, since I didn't follow his career - but, of course, I did say he probably won't. Santo should be in the HOF, too, but a ring carries weight. Robinson has Santo by 6 GG's, but Santo did a good deal more in less time offensively. If Santo had a ring, say in '69, he'd probably be in the HOF. Omar could be better served by playing for the BoSox or some other contending team (like the Cubs - we could use him at SS  biggrin  ). But w/o that ring, IMO, I just don't think he has enough to get himself in there.
Living the American Dream
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 49):
WTF? You hit 500, even in this era, you're in. Thome is 25th ALL TIME, in home runs; 21st ALL TIME in walks. He's in, no question about it.

If Thome should go in for not owning a glove, then Edgar Martinez should be in as well.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:48 pm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 53):
But w/o that ring, IMO, I just don't think he has enough to get himself in there.

 rotfl 

He has almost the same numbers than Ozzie. In many categories, he's better. But, he doesn't deserve to get in, but Oz did? Uh, OK. Convoluted logic. I'll be shown to be right on this one in any event, and you can sulk then.

Quoting KROC (Reply 54):
If Thome should go in for not owning a glove, then Edgar Martinez should be in as well.

He owns a glove. He still plays a lot of first, he used to play third. He's a pretty good first baseman at that. His back is starting to limit him in that regard.

If you're 25th on the HR list, KROC, you deserve to be in. Oh, and old Edgar only hit 309 HR's. What's your point?

A few other stats on Thome, from http://www.baseball-reference.com

In 1101 games played at first base, he has a .993 fielding percentage. Pretty darn good.

He's also hit 17 career Post-Season homers, which is in the top 5 all-time.

He's in.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Wed Aug 08, 2007 11:51 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 55):
He owns a glove. He still plays a lot of first, he used to play third. He's a pretty good first baseman at that. His back is starting to limit him in that regard.

If you're 25th on the HR list, KROC, you deserve to be in. Oh, and old Edgar only hit 309 HR's. What's your point?

A few other stats on Thome, from http://www.baseball-reference.com

In 1101 games played at first base, he has a .993 fielding percentage. Pretty darn good.

He's also hit 17 career Post-Season homers, which is in the top 5 all-time.

He's in.

Oh, my bad Steamer Honk. I had no idea we were only basing HOF merit on home runs.  Yeah sure Edgar also batter .312, will have whiffed over a 1,000 times less than Thome when he is done, and was just as solid a run producer as Jimmy-T. As for Thome still playing a lot of birst, sorry but thats BS. See, I have Thome on a fantasy team, and when interleague play was going on, I saw Thome ride the pine for most of the games while only occasionally getting a start at first. Why? Because he is a DH who has to use his glove a couple dozen times a year now. And his 17 bombs in the post season are impressive, but so are the number of rings he has won ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
 
D L X
Posts: 12654
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:00 am

Anyone who doesn't put Barry Bonds on this list has a hole in their head that needs to be plugged.

Quoting http://www.ajc.com/opinion/content/opinion/stories/2007/07/30/bondsed_0731.html:
In years to come, we may learn that Bonds broke the rules. At that time, it will be proper to view Bonds with contempt. But what if that day never comes? Baseball fans will have missed the opportunity to celebrate a truly great achievement and give credit to a man who deserves it. As a baseball fan, I am going to enjoy watching Bonds breaking the record, and I hope other baseball fans choose to do so, too.
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 56):
Oh, my bad Steamer Honk. I had no idea we were only basing HOF merit on home runs.

We're not, KROC. But there ARE certain milestones in baseball that mean you're a lock for the HOF: 3000 hits; 300 wins; 500 home runs. I think anyone with those numbers deserve to be in the Hall. You're doing soemthing right in the game if you hit those milestones. That's the way it is. But many guys in the Hall were very good at one thing, and just good at others. Thome has a good career BA; he is in the top 25 in both walks and HR's. He's been a solid fielder since he started his career, wh ich has spanned a decade and a half. He deserves to be in.

Quoting KROC (Reply 56):
As for Thome still playing a lot of birst, sorry but thats BS.

It's "first", not "burst". And while he's not an everyday 1B anymore, he does play it, and he can still play it well. But like a lot of guys late in their careers, he has gone to DH because 1. of injuries, and 2. because he's still a dangerous bat that a team wants in the lineup.

Quoting KROC (Reply 56):
but so are the number of rings he has won ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

The two guys just inducted had ONE ring between them. ERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!  Yeah sure

This about INDIVIDUAL, not team achievement, going into the Hall.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
AGM100
Posts: 5077
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2003 2:16 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 34):
BTW - I think he only has one ring

My bad, I thought he had 2 .

Did anyone mention,, quite giant Tod Helton ? He is a great player , I saw him hit a line drive homer over center @ Bank One last year. Like they say on a frozen rope ... their was no doubt about it and it happened so fast . Amazing power.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/h/heltoto01.shtml
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:38 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 58):
We're not, KROC. But there ARE certain milestones in baseball that mean you're a lock for the HOF: 3000 hits; 300 wins; 500 home runs.

Actually in this day and age 500 home runs are no longer a lock. Fred McGriff is NOT a hall of fame lock, but dude has like 497. You mean if he hit 3 more than BAM! hes in? Rafael Palmero has 3,000/500 and he is no lock for the hall. Sorry to blow that out of the water for ya.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 58):
It's "first", not "burst".

Actually you should go back and look. I mistyped "birst" not "burst". If you want to be a wise ass, then get it right. Otherwise you might end up just looking like a-hole. Opps, too late.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 58):
This about INDIVIDUAL, not team achievement, going into the Hall.

Really. Team achievement doesn't help? My bad. I forgot you were one of the baseball writers of America who gets to vote and shit. I would love to see your ballet full of Steamer greats like Aaron Boone, and Jaret Wright.  Yeah sure
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:51 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 60):
Rafael Palmero has 3,000/500 and he is no lock for the hall.

That's because of his failed drug test. If he were clean, he'd easily be going to the hall.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:02 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 61):
That's because of his failed drug test. If he were clean, he'd easily be going to the hall.

I know that. But that still means that 3,000/500 isn't an automatic bid to the Hall.

Besides, it was a tainted B12 shot.  Wink
 
D L X
Posts: 12654
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:09 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 62):
I know that. But that still means that 3,000/500 isn't an automatic bid to the Hall.

3000 hits or 500 home runs is a rebuttable presumption that you're HOF-bound.
 
Tom in NO
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 1999 10:10 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 3:43 am

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 42):
only hit 28 home runs in his 19 seasons.

One of those 28 haunts all us Dodger fans to this day.

Quoting KROC (Reply 54):
If Thome should go in for not owning a glove, then Edgar Martinez should be in as well.

 checkmark 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 58):
But there ARE certain milestones in baseball that mean you're a lock for the HOF: 3000 hits; 300 wins; 500 home runs.

No lock on 3,000 hits (see Biggio), no lock on 500 hr's (enough reasons above), 300 wins is a lock (Randy Johnson likely the last one to get 300).

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:14 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 63):
3000 hits or 500 home runs is a rebuttable presumption that you're HOF-bound.

I'm rebutting in the case of certain players. Hell, Some don't consider Craig Biggio and his 3,000 hits a HOFer. Big Mac landed only 25% of the votes in his HOF attempt and he had what, 584 or something?

Quoting Tom in NO (Reply 64):
No lock on 3,000 hits (see Biggio), no lock on 500 hr's (enough reasons above), 300 wins is a lock (Randy Johnson likely the last one to get 300).

I was with ya all the way up until randy notching his 300th.  Wink
 
PIA777
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:39 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:17 am

Here is my list:

Barry Bonds
Greg Maddux
Tom Glavine
John Smoltz
Alex Rodriguez
Manny Ramirez
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Curt Schilling
Trevor Hoffman
Mariano Rivera
Derek Jeter
Craig Biggio
Ichiro Suzuki
Frank Thomas
Ken Griffey JR
Ivan Rodriguez
Mike Piazza

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
PIA777
Posts: 1841
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:39 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:20 am

Quoting Piercey (Reply 14):
Johan Santana, Terry Francona, Jason Giambi, Andruw Jones, Luis Gonzalez, Jim Edmonds, Garrett Anderson, Kenny Lofton, Magglio Ordonez, Nomar Garciaparra, Pedro Martinez, Tim Wakefield

Not all of these guys. Nomar??? Do they have a section at HOF for the most Injured players?

PIA777
GO CUBS!!
 
IADCA
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting PIA777 (Reply 66):
Here is my list:

Barry Bonds
Greg Maddux
Tom Glavine
John Smoltz
Alex Rodriguez
Manny Ramirez
Roger Clemens
Randy Johnson
Curt Schilling
Trevor Hoffman
Mariano Rivera
Derek Jeter
Craig Biggio
Ichiro Suzuki
Frank Thomas
Ken Griffey JR
Ivan Rodriguez
Mike Piazza

Good call on that list. I'd take off Thomas (he was an incredible force for a while, but probably only last season's resurgence brought him back into consideration, and he's never really had a position) and maybe Schilling. Vlad Guerrero and Albert Pujols, if they continue at anything approaching their current rates, are locks.

Quoting Piercey (Reply 14):
Johan Santana, Terry Francona, Jason Giambi, Andruw Jones, Luis Gonzalez, Jim Edmonds, Garrett Anderson, Kenny Lofton, Magglio Ordonez, Nomar Garciaparra, Pedro Martinez, Tim Wakefield

In an earlier era, some of these guys might have had a chance. But with expansion inflating both the number of players and some of their statistics, nope. Pedro's a lock and Santana is if he continues pitching well (keep in mind that 3 or 4 years ago people would have said similar things about Barry Zito, though). Andruw Jones has a chance, but both his offense and defense are going in the tank this year. If Ordonez hits 50 doubles for the next 8 years, maybe. Those others, no chance.
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:45 am

Alfonso Soriano
Aramis Ramirez
Carlos Zambrano
Albert Pujols
Mark Buehrle

hmm...
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 3132
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:47 am

Without reading any of the thread, none of the Brewers, at the rate they're playing right now. They're getting throttled 16-2 in the bottom of the 4th at Colorado. I'd say the Rockies have the sweep nailed.

My 'Stros go for the sweep tonight against the Lovable Losers.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
LHMark
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 2:18 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:35 am

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 70):
Without reading any of the thread, none of the Brewers, at the rate they're playing right now. They're getting throttled 16-2 in the bottom of the 4th at Colorado. I'd say the Rockies have the sweep nailed.

Without reading the thread? Hell, you didn't even read the thread topic.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:40 am

After you laughed, I did it a bit more research. You need to address a thing or two before you look as good as you think.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 55):
He has almost the same numbers than Ozzie. In many categories, he's better. But, he doesn't deserve to get in, but Oz did? Uh, OK. Convoluted logic.

You never explained anything about Santo then. It's a strong correlation, pitting the Robinson/Santo comparison with that of Ozzie/Omar. If Santo's not in there, then why not? If you're such the brilliant statistician, then maybe you could tell me why a guy like Gil Hodges isn't in the HOF. By the way, when did Omar ever have a season like Ozzie did in '87?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 55):
He's in.

He could be, but don't be so sure. Here's a few reasons why.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 52):
With 155 games played, Omar Vizquel will become the all-time leader in games played at shortstop with 2582. He currently ranks third at 2457, trailing Ozzie Smith, (2511), and Luis Aparicio, (2581).

With 76 assists, Vizquel becomes the seventh shortstop to reach 7000 for his career.

Vizquel is the all-time fielding percentage leader at short with a .984 mark. Deivi Cruz and Neifi Perez are tied for sixth at .978, and Alex Rodriguez is tied for eleventh at .977.

With 24 double plays, Vizquel becomes the all-time leader at 1591, passing Ozzie Smith. .

Those are impressive stats, but what has Vizquel done at the plate when his team needed him? Look at a guy like Gary Carter (yeah, yeah, different position - but definitely not mentioned among the greatest catchers, like Bench, Berra, Munson, etc.) - some of his stats don't compare to Vizquel, but he delivered when it counted, like the 2 HR's he delivered in Game 4 of the '86 WS, then keeping his team alive in Game 6. When has Omar ever done anything like that?

Let's go back to his position - SS. Other HOF SS's like Phil Rizzuto weren't expected to be the big name bats (like Vizquel wasn't on the Indians), but Rizzuto delivered the bunts and clutch hitting when they needed it. Remember that example of Ozzie in '87? Ozzie's performance (along with Jack Clark) is what led the Cardinals to the playoffs.

There's more to it than just stats, though. There's other things that could be going against him, too. We're in a SS saturated time here. Timing might mean a lot for him - if he retires (and probably will) before the likes of Jeter, A-Rod and Tejada. The thing is, is that if he doesn't get into the HOF quickly, when these guys retire, he'll be overshadowed, and after at least Jeter and A-Rod get into the HOF, Vizquel may be quickly forgotten. And not all stats favor him, either - check out his hitting stats when they counted most - he stunk on the 95 WS team (which was supposed to be oh-so-great with guys like Murray, Manny, Lofton, Thome and so forth). He didn't do much better in the '97, WS either. He gave too little, too late in stealing 2 bases in Game 7 in '97. He just couldn't deliver when it counted.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 58):
This about INDIVIDUAL, not team achievement, going into the Hall.


You're right. There's other SS's who were great and won at least 1 WS, but are not in the HOF. But even if Vizquel gets a ring, HOF voters might still put him in the same class as a guy like Mark Belanger. At least Belanger delivered a rare homer in the WS for Baltimore - what did Vizquel ever do for his team? He sounds more and more like stat-boy than HOF'er.   

I'd also like to clarify what I was saying earlier about having a ring and getting into the Hall - some guys do have a ring, and are not in the HOF (though, some of them belong there, like Hodges). But those same players were obviously not deemed worthy enough even with a WS win. On the flipside, a lot of those players, though, didn't have the stats that Vizquel does. I'm just saying Vizquel needs something more to get him over the hump - a ring could help, although, when throwing in his past stats in the WS, if he did get one, he'd have to prove himself a critical part in that team earning that ring.

Edited for additional content.

[Edited 2007-08-09 01:00:19]
Living the American Dream
 
Longhornmaniac
Posts: 3132
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 2:33 pm

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting LHMARK (Reply 71):
Without reading the thread? Hell, you didn't even read the thread topic.

LOL, sure I did.

Quoting Longhornmaniac (Reply 70):
none of the Brewers, at the rate they're playing right now.

 Smile

I was saying that at the rate the Brew Crew is playing right now, none of them deserve to be in the HOF. They're playing horribly.

Cheers,
Cameron
Cheers,
Cameron
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting KROC (Reply 60):
If you want to be a wise ass, then get it right. Otherwise you might end up just looking like a-hole. Opps, too late.

Ah yes, I guess since you're a mod, you're allowed to lay people low at will, right?

Lighten up, man. Anytime anyone says something good about Cleveland, you're on here with your lame 40 year old jokes anyway.

Again, Thome will be in. Mark it down. He'll be in. Ramirez will be in, and go in as a BoSox. Vizquel will be in. Mark it down.

Quoting KROC (Reply 65):
Big Mac landed only 25% of the votes in his HOF attempt and he had what, 584 or something?



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 72):
You never explained anything about Santo then.

We're not TALKING about Santo, are we? You're talking about players A and B, and I'm talking about players J and K. Two different sets. I don't CARE about the Santo deal. It has no bearing on it. You're really stretching if you think your "comparison" is valid toward Vizquel and Oz.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 72):
Those are impressive stats, but what has Vizquel done at the plate when his team needed him?

He's always been a clutch player. On both O and D. He makes clutch hits, and he's always made clutch defensive plays.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 72):
We're in a SS saturated time here.

 Yeah sure

Give me a break. Omar, if he goes in, will prolly go in at least a half decade before the big names playing right now, like Jeter. Vizquel has played 19 season. He's going to go in as the top fielding SS of all time. He's going in with more hits than Oz. He's going in with more games played. He's had a remarkable career.

I just can't figure out why you're trying to hard to discredit him from the HOF. He's earned it. He'll be there, but you act like hes some schmuck comprared to the Great And Powerful Oz, when, facts are, he's going to end up with career stats better than Ozzie in most categories.

"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtian!"

At least I'm getting a good laugh out of you and KMOD.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
planesarecool
Posts: 3257
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:37 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 12:35 pm

Trevor Hoffman
Mike Piazza
Barry Bonds
Tom Glavine
Albert Pujols

To name a few.
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:26 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 74):
We're not TALKING about Santo, are we? You're talking about players A and B, and I'm talking about players J and K. Two different sets. I don't CARE about the Santo deal.

Listen, Chicklet, I'm trying to make reasonable comparisons and giving a good all 'round perspective on it, using stats, history and intangibles (such as leadership). Are you a fan of the game, or just some blind homer?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 74):
He makes clutch hits

Not like Ozzie, who, in the aforementioned example, raised his offense to take the Cards to the playoffs in '87. Omar's never led a team like that.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 74):
It has no bearing on it.

. . . aside from the fact that Santo was a better player all 'round than Vizquel. Throw in a even better one like Gil Hodges - two guys, neither of whom are in the HOF, but better than Vizquel.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 74):
He's had a remarkable career.

A fine career, but the operative word - had.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 74):
I just can't figure out why you're trying to hard to discredit him from the HOF.

That was your most reasonable remark in that post. Read more closely . . .

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 53):
I'm not saying he shouldn't



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 72):
Those are impressive stats



Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 72):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 55):
He's in.

He could be

The only thing that would burn me about this is seeing Omar in the HOF and not Santo.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 74):
He'll be there

If so, it won't be because you said so.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 74):
Vizquel has played 19 season. He's going to go in as the top fielding SS of all time. He's going in with more hits than Oz. He's going in with more games played. He's had a remarkable career.

Then, like said, he needs to get in sooner than later. Check out this article. Vizquel isn't sure he'd make it into the HOF, the writer isn't, and they talk of the same thing that basically we both have - building a case. And one HOF voter even mentions what I did (twice!) about having a ring - that it "helps a borderline player".

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 74):
At least I'm getting a good laugh out of you and KMOD.

When you're done laughing, doing your homework would help you and your case look a bit more presentable. Perhaps you should take your own advice . . .

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 74):
Lighten up, man

You sound like a myocardial infarction in progress.
Living the American Dream
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:27 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 74):
Ah yes, I guess since you're a mod, you're allowed to lay people low at will, right?

Lighten up, man. Anytime anyone says something good about Cleveland, you're on here with your lame 40 year old jokes anyway.

Again, Thome will be in. Mark it down. He'll be in. Ramirez will be in, and go in as a BoSox. Vizquel will be in. Mark it down.

- I lay people out less than you, so grab a kleenex and soak up those tears.

- I have yet to mention anything about Cleveland setting their river ablaze several times. Maybe you should lighten up. You're the one who apparently can't hack it.

- ManRam will be in, as a Greensox. Thome might get in but probably shouldn't. Vizquel won't get in, unless they take his on the road philandering into account (according to Albert Belle).
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 10:50 pm

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 76):
Listen, Chicklet

Temper, temper. Like that'll get you anywhere.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 76):
I'm trying to make reasonable comparisons and giving a good all 'round perspective on it, using stats, history and intangibles (such as leadership). Are you a fan of the game, or just some blind homer?

Fine, you're trying to make reasonable comparisons. Fair enough. What do you think I've been doing. I've shown you that Omar, in some ways, has better stats than Oz. Not almost as good, but better. He's a better fielder. He's had more career hits. Those are facts, not blind homerism. Based on the standard-bearer for modern shortstops, which is Oz, Omar should, and will, get in. The facts support that. That's all I'm driving at. He DESERVES to be in, and he will get in. If he had a few more yers lerft in him, I'd say he'd try for 3000 hits, which I don't think he'll get.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 76):
A fine career, but the operative word - had.

???

"Had"? He's still playing. Ozzie "had" a fine career, because he's retired. Omar won another gold glove last year, in his 18th season. He's still "having" a fine career. He STILL starts.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 76):
When you're done laughing, doing your homework would help you and your case look a bit more presentable. Perhaps you should take your own advice . . .

Did my homework, my friend. I showed you comparisons between Omar and Oz. Omar has more hits, a better fielding pecentage, more double plays turned, more games played. That's doing the homework. I think comparing him to Joe Santo's predicament is apples and oranges, with all due respect.

Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 76):
You sound like a myocardial infarction in progress.

Uh.....whatever.

Again, lighten up a little. You're taking this way too seriously.

This is the great thing about these kinds of debates. Everyone has their own opinions, and no one ever sees it quite the same. I enjoy these kind of comparisons.

Quoting KROC (Reply 77):
- I lay people out less than you, so grab a kleenex and soak up those tears.

 rotfl 

Only tears are laughing at how upset you and Allstarflyer sound at my defense of a guy I think should be in the HOF. It's actually very entertaining.

Quoting KROC (Reply 77):
- ManRam will be in, as a Greensox. Thome might get in but probably shouldn't.

Wait a sec. First, I think ManRam will also get in. But if you're gonna come down on Thome because, being 6 years Manny's senior, he doesn't pick up the glove as much, what about the argument about one-dimensional guys, which Manny is the perfect example of? He's got a gun of an arm, but he's hardly the most effective outfielder that's ever played the game. Like Thome, he'll go in for his offensive accomplishments.

Again, I agree ManRam will get in-he's got one of the greatest strokes at the plate I've ever seen, but to play devil's advocate, if he gets in solely for his offernsive numbers, Thome will too.

Quoting KROC (Reply 77):
Vizquel won't get in, unless they take his on the road philandering into account (according to Albert Belle).

Trying to back your claim with a bitter, unbalanced guy. Gee, that's gonna bolster your case, Mike.

All three will be in. All three deserve to be in. Again, it's mystifying why you think Thome, who will crack 500 HR's should't be in, and why Omar, with better numbers than Oz, shouldn't be in. But hey, that's your opinion, even if they're wrong.  Smile
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:12 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
Wait a sec. First, I think ManRam will also get in. But if you're gonna come down on Thome because, being 6 years Manny's senior, he doesn't pick up the glove as much, what about the argument about one-dimensional guys, which Manny is the perfect example of? He's got a gun of an arm, but he's hardly the most effective outfielder that's ever played the game. Like Thome, he'll go in for his offensive accomplishments.

Again, I agree ManRam will get in-he's got one of the greatest strokes at the plate I've ever seen, but to play devil's advocate, if he gets in solely for his offernsive numbers, Thome will too.

Look, no left fielder can cut off a centerfielders throw to the cutoff man like ManRam (an thats meant to make you laugh my man). And while I agree that Manny's exploits in the field won't be what get him in, by the time he is done raking, he will have a lot better numbers than Thome.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
Trying to back your claim with a bitter, unbalanced guy. Gee, that's gonna bolster your case, Mike.

All three will be in. All three deserve to be in. Again, it's mystifying why you think Thome, who will crack 500 HR's should't be in, and why Omar, with better numbers than Oz, shouldn't be in. But hey, that's your opinion, even if they're wrong.

Dude, the Belle reference was something to make you laugh. Relax my man. Just exploiting their feud for my gain.
 
aace24
Posts: 759
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 8:16 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:26 pm

The majority of the people wouldn't know the Indians existed if it wasn't for Major League.  Wink

[Edited 2007-08-09 16:27:27]
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:06 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 79):
Look, no left fielder can cut off a centerfielders throw to the cutoff man like ManRam (an thats meant to make you laugh my man).

 rotfl 

You know, I never got to see that play? Musta been priceless.

And this guy also used to leave his paychecks in the locker when he was younger-or on the floor for other people to pick up....

Quoting KROC (Reply 79):
Dude, the Belle reference was something to make you laugh.

Oh, it did.

I can see him in the Arizona slammer thinking right now "Damn, where is Hanna Storm when you need her...."

There's a guy, who, if his hip hadn't fallen apart, might have been interesting. He was still only 30, and had like 380 HR's. Had he been able to play another 7 to 10 years, healthy, his numbers would have been in the 600 HR range, I'm convinced. But, with his surly attitude, and how much he hated the media, would he ever have gotten in?

That's an interesting "what if".
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Falcon84
Topic Author
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting KROC (Reply 77):
. Vizquel won't get in, unless they take his on the road philandering into account (according to Albert Belle).

Actually, Mike, if you'd ever seen Omar's wife-and I have at a restaurant with him a few years ago-he'd be a fool to want anything else.  Big grin
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
KROC
Posts: 18919
Joined: Mon May 08, 2000 11:19 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 81):
And this guy also used to leave his paychecks in the locker when he was younger-or on the floor for other people to pick up....

There was also a story, and I forget exactly how it was found out, but it became known that ManRam used to keep around 40K in his glove compartment in his car. He had told a rookie or a carwash guy or something to get some money out of the glove box one day and the guy opened it to find 40K stuffed inside! ManRam better not drive down to Camden or Newark anytime soon!

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 81):
There's a guy, who, if his hip hadn't fallen apart, might have been interesting. He was still only 30, and had like 380 HR's. Had he been able to play another 7 to 10 years, healthy, his numbers would have been in the 600 HR range, I'm convinced. But, with his surly attitude, and how much he hated the media, would he ever have gotten in?

That's an interesting "what if".

Not trying to touch off another battle but according to you that HR total would buy him a pass to Cooperstown. if you take into consideration his media issues as well as his corked bats, then maybe not. I think he illustrates the point though, that the 500/3000 batting numbers are no longer the locks they used to be.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 82):
Actually, Mike, if you'd ever seen Omar's wife-and I have at a restaurant with him a few years ago-he'd be a fool to want anything else.

If thats the case, its a shame he was out with a different skank on the road every night. Who does he think he is...Roger Dorn?
 
allstarflyer
Posts: 3264
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:32 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:07 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 76):
Listen, Chicklet

Temper, temper. Like that'll get you anywhere.

You're right, regardless of intent. My apologies.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
I've shown you that Omar, in some ways, has better stats than Oz.

True.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
Based on the standard-bearer for modern shortstops, which is Oz

Technically, I'd disagree. A-Rod seems to be the current mold (even though he's now at 3rd) - basically a 5-tool player, much in the mold of the old CF position (ala A-Rod, Jeter, Tejada, what Michael Young used to be, and so forth).

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
He DESERVES to be in

Not disputing that - I think Santo deserves it myself. Shoot, I think even Dale Murphy deserves greater consideration.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
"Had"?

I said that because of his past knee surgery coupled with his advancing age, plus the fact he won't Bonds bat to help complement his stats.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
Omar won another gold glove last year, in his 18th season.

True, and he earned it.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
I think comparing him to Joe Santo's predicament is apples and oranges, with all due respect.

Maybe, but I throw 'em all in the mix (Santo 3B, Hodges 1B, Murphy OF, etc.).

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
Quoting Allstarflyer (Reply 76):
You sound like a myocardial infarction in progress.

Uh.....whatever.

Again, lighten up a little. You're taking this way too seriously.

I had thought the same of you.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
This is the great thing about these kinds of debates. Everyone has their own opinions, and no one ever sees it quite the same. I enjoy these kind of comparisons.

As do I. When I got back to work today and started checking this thread, I thought the frying pan would be getting hotter.
Living the American Dream
 
ordryan28
Posts: 963
Joined: Mon Jul 17, 2006 2:24 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:14 am

Quoting IADCA (Reply 68):
I'd take off Thomas (he was an incredible force for a while, but probably only last season's resurgence brought him back into consideration, and he's never really had a position)

Dude, anyone over 500 career hr's is a lock, especially without any steroid allegations surrounding him.
Whoever said winning is not everything never fought cancer.
 
D L X
Posts: 12654
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:36 am

NEWS ALERT:


Barry Bonds' gear is en route to The Hall. Like it or not, it's a done deal now. Barry's going too.
 
Stretch 8
Posts: 2468
Joined: Fri May 28, 1999 4:00 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 9:32 pm

What about Gary Sheffield? Yes, he was on the juice, and never shuts up, but when he is on, look out.
Maggs swings, it's a drive deep to left! The Tigers are going to the World Series!!!
 
LHMark
Posts: 7048
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 2:18 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:00 pm

I think Shef will get some legit consideration for the hall, but he's run his mouth enough to destroy the "icon of baseball" cache that baseball writers love. If he goes in, it won't be first ballot.
"Sympathy is something that shouldn't be bestowed on the Yankees. Apparently it angers them." - Bob Feller
 
Continental
Posts: 5223
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 3:46 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:35 am

If Johan Santana can keep it up, as he's been doing for years, he'll definitely get into the HOF.

Same goes for Justin Morneau, but it's just too early to tell. These past few years for Morneau have been good, especially last year when he was the AL MVP. He's like David Wright, if he can keep it up, then he'll probably get in.

As you can see, I'm quite partial to the Twins...
 
IADCA
Posts: 2106
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: MLB: Current Players Bound For HOF?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:58 am

Quoting ORDRyan28 (Reply 85):
Dude, anyone over 500 career hr's is a lock, especially without any steroid allegations surrounding him.

Uh, McGwire and Palmeiro both had over 550 homers and neither's likely to ever get in. Palmeiro also had 3000 hits, which won't help him much either. Granted, they've got steroids hanging over them, but considering that they're both in the top 10 home run hitters of all time, it's no lock. There was a time when having 400 homers was pretty much automatic, and there was even a movement to put Dave Kingman in just because he's got over 400. With more and more guys breaking through 500, it's just not the sure-fire thing it used to be. Consider that almost a third of the 500 homer hitters now have achieved the feat in the past 10 years and that three more are likely to be in the club in the next year or so, and you've got a recipe for guys like Big Frank to get squeezed. His not playing in the field for much of his career is likely also to hurt him with the voters; it's still an issue that comes up every year when DHs with great numbers don't get their fair share of MVP balloting, and considering MVP voters are many of the same writers who vote for the Hall, he's in for an uphill climb. To be clear, I was saying not that I think he SHOULDN'T be in (I think he absolutely should) but that I think he might not make it. If he does keep his career average over .300 he'll probably be hard to keep out though.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: art, dobilan, EstherLouise, FTMCPIUS, GDB, RICBWI, T54A, TheF15Ace, Tugger and 60 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos