After you laughed, I did it a bit more research. You need to address a thing or two before you look as good as you think.
|Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 55):
He has almost the same numbers than Ozzie. In many categories, he's better. But, he doesn't deserve to get in, but Oz did? Uh, OK. Convoluted logic.
You never explained anything about Santo then. It's a strong correlation, pitting the Robinson/Santo comparison with that of Ozzie/Omar. If Santo's not in there, then why not? If you're such the brilliant statistician, then maybe you could tell me why a guy like Gil Hodges isn't in the HOF. By the way, when did Omar ever have a season like Ozzie did in '87?
He could be, but don't be so sure. Here's a few reasons why.
|Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 52):
With 155 games played, Omar Vizquel will become the all-time leader in games played at shortstop with 2582. He currently ranks third at 2457, trailing Ozzie Smith, (2511), and Luis Aparicio, (2581).
With 76 assists, Vizquel becomes the seventh shortstop to reach 7000 for his career.
Vizquel is the all-time fielding percentage leader at short with a .984 mark. Deivi Cruz and Neifi Perez are tied for sixth at .978, and Alex Rodriguez is tied for eleventh at .977.
With 24 double plays, Vizquel becomes the all-time leader at 1591, passing Ozzie Smith. .
Those are impressive stats, but what has Vizquel done at the plate when his team needed him? Look at a guy like Gary Carter (yeah, yeah, different position - but definitely not mentioned among the greatest catchers, like Bench, Berra, Munson, etc.) - some of his stats don't compare to Vizquel, but he delivered when it counted, like the 2 HR
's he delivered in Game 4 of the '86 WS
, then keeping his team alive in Game 6. When has Omar ever done anything like that?
Let's go back to his position - SS
. Other HOF SS
's like Phil Rizzuto weren't expected to be the big name bats (like Vizquel wasn't on the Indians), but Rizzuto delivered the bunts and clutch hitting when they needed it. Remember that example of Ozzie in '87? Ozzie's performance (along with Jack Clark) is what led the Cardinals to the playoffs.
There's more to it than just stats, though. There's other things that could be going against him, too. We're in a SS
saturated time here. Timing might mean a lot for him - if he retires (and probably will) before the likes of Jeter, A-Rod and Tejada. The thing is, is that if he doesn't get into the HOF quickly, when these guys retire, he'll be overshadowed, and after at least Jeter and A-Rod get into the HOF, Vizquel may be quickly forgotten. And not all stats favor him, either - check out his hitting stats when they counted most - he stunk on the 95 WS
team (which was supposed to be oh-so-great with guys like Murray, Manny, Lofton, Thome and so forth). He didn't do much better in the '97
either. He gave too little, too late in stealing 2 bases in Game 7 in '97. He just couldn't deliver when it counted.
|Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 58):
This about INDIVIDUAL, not team achievement, going into the Hall.
You're right. There's other SS
's who were great and won at least 1 WS
, but are not in the HOF. But even if Vizquel gets a ring, HOF voters might still put him in the same class as a guy like Mark Belanger. At least Belanger delivered a rare homer in the WS
for Baltimore - what did Vizquel ever do for his team? He sounds more and more like stat-boy than HOF'er.
I'd also like to clarify what I was saying earlier about having a ring and getting into the Hall - some guys do have a ring, and are not in the HOF (though, some of them belong there, like Hodges). But those same players were obviously not deemed worthy enough even with a WS win. On the flipside, a lot of those players, though, didn't have the stats that Vizquel does. I'm just saying Vizquel needs something more to get him over the hump - a ring could help, although, when throwing in his past stats in the WS, if he did get one, he'd have to prove himself a critical part in that team earning that ring.
Edited for additional content.
[Edited 2007-08-09 01:00:19]