tz757300
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Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:43 pm

After reading this article ( http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070809/pl_nm/russia_military_flights_dc_3 ), it seems as if Russia I reverting back to the days of the Cold War. With the Arctic Sea "claim", an aggressive President, random assassinations of people abroad, and now this, the only thing we are missing is an arms race.

What does everyone think of this?
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n710ps
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:04 am

I have been edgy about Russia for a while to be hoest. As much as the goverments are stateing it is all freindly actions speak louder than words and I think that Russia is our for trouble. I am concerned about their intrest in commodities and real estate so close to the western. The encroachment of them and challenges of other claims shows that there is impending issues. Putin has shown his commie ways and I do not like it. I think that the US and UK are leery but they will not be too public about it. Canada is fairly open about it but I think that it is a bit of the US dog barking in the backround personally through them.
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runway777
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:23 am

i think if anything happened russia would win..
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airfoilsguy
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:27 am

It has always been the tradition of our long-range aviation to fly far into the ocean, to meet (U.S.) aircraft carriers and greet (U.S. pilots) visually," Androsov told a news conference.

That quote has to win the award for "best line of bullshit" hands down. The Russian's sure didn't have that kind of attitude when KAL 007 came by to say "hi"
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
tz757300
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:33 am

Quoting Runway777 (Reply 2):
i think if anything happened russia would win..

Oh, please tell me why you think this. You have your opinion, but I wouldn't mind seeing a reason.
LETS GO MOUNTAINEERS!
 
graphic
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:40 am

Russia has what, one of the largest airfleets in the world? Too bad they can only afford 5 pilots...
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sandrozrh
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:42 am

It's just unfair to blame the Russians for everything. I still don't see th eneed of the US's planned anti-missile system in eastern europe, and this hasn't exactly made things better either. Shame that Poland actually cooperates with the US on this.

Quoting TZ757300 (Reply 4):
Quoting Runway777 (Reply 2):
i think if anything happened russia would win..

Oh, please tell me why you think this. You have your opinion, but I wouldn't mind seeing a reason.

IF, and god forbid, a conflict emerges out of this, there won't be any winners, just losers.

Quoting Graphic (Reply 5):
Russia has what, one of the largest airfleets in the world? Too bad they can only afford 5 pilots...

Oh please  Yeah sure
 
Doona
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:44 am

Quoting TZ757300 (Thread starter):
the only thing we are missing is an arms race

You're saying there isn't one already? Last I heard, Russia is going to spend billions upon billions of dollars on new toys.

Quoting Graphic (Reply 5):
Too bad they can only afford 5 pilots...

5 pilots who get to spend 2hrs/year in the air.  silly 

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 12:47 am

Quoting Graphic (Reply 5):
Russia has what, one of the largest airfleets in the world? Too bad they can only afford 5 pilots...

All their ordnance and ammo is under the control of a single bureaucrat and he has so far been unable to get a phone in his office.

I think it is kind of funny but this time it looks like the two nations involved will be Russia and CANADA! I'm still trying to understand this one. Seems as though Joe Stalin's very real efforts to take over every nation on his borders was okay with Canada but Russia claiming those cute little fur seals as their own - unacceptable!

But maybe I don't understand it.
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MKEdude
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:08 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 6):
Quoting Graphic (Reply 5):
Russia has what, one of the largest airfleets in the world? Too bad they can only afford 5 pilots...

Oh please

All right, all right. Five pilots and a goat.  wink 

Actually Russia is getting a little scary. Putin is supposed to leave office sometime soon (next year or the year after I think) If he finds a way to stay on then we know that the cold war is back for real.

Amazing how massive amounts of oil makes a country's cojones grow. I'm waiting for Canada to start getting all uppity.
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pdxtriple7
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 1:17 am

It won't be the same kind of Cold War that existed after World War II. Sure there are tensions and issues, but Russia really doesn't have the strength, nor do the elites/rich bourgeoisie have much to gain but reverting back to Cold War ways. Putin challenges the increasing number of rich that profited of the quick privatization of soviet assets and holdings, unlike Yeltsin who was part of the intial corruption. In the end, Russia is connected to the global economy and has too much to lose by going back to the "Cold War" where they were on the outside and dealing with their sphere of influence. I agree there will be tensions in the coming years, just a different kind.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 2:45 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 8):
Seems as though Joe Stalin's very real efforts to take over every nation on his borders was okay with Canada but Russia claiming those cute little fur seals as their own - unacceptable!

What makes you think Canada was OK with Stalin??? Or do you think because we have socialized health care that we must be partially in bed with communists?  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure
 
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LTU932
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:26 am

I'm always wondering about one thing: why is Russia constantly complaining about former "Soviet Satellite" states joining the EU and NATO? Why do they have to go solo on certain things? Maybe if Russia, regardless of whether it's Yeltsin or Putin in charge, was a bit more cooperative and eager to join Western alliances, maybe we wouldn't be in this mess. Russia could have even become a valuable member in NATO had they joined when they had the chance and didn't have the highly criticised Chechnya war to deal with. Hence I wonder why Russia, even after the end of the Soviet Union, is still so isolationist towards the West.

As they say: If you can't beat them, join them.
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OlegShv
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:27 am

What's the big fuss about Russian Air Force training flights? The media makes it sound like a super huge news, and unfortunately most people here are naive enough to listen seriously to this crap. They make it sound like Russian Air Force are the only ones who fly training missions. I bet USAF fly their B52s and B2s around the globe and nobody here gives a crap about it.

For example, did anyone read about this incident: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/03/22/world/main545408.shtml

Quoting Doona (Reply 7):
5 pilots who get to spend 2hrs/year in the air.   

Well, let me ask you this: How many strategic bombers does Sweden have? Zero.... Too bad you can't afford any of them.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 4:48 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 6):
I still don't see th eneed of the US's planned anti-missile system in eastern europe, and this hasn't exactly made things better either. Shame that Poland actually cooperates with the US on this.

???? I still don't see why Russia should have any say into what Poland does on its territory. Las time I checked they don't own this part of Europe and comments like this only perpetuate Yalta.
Half of century of occupation and looting resulting from that was more than enough.
I guess not everyone can afford to stay "neutral" because they launder money for everybody...

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 13):
Too bad you can't afford any of them.

Maybe they just happen to have their priorities right. Or do you think having a strategic bombers while not having decent health care (resulting in life expectancy like in sub-Saharan Africa) or no paved roads 30 km outside of capital is better???

[Edited 2007-08-10 21:54:53]
 
Doona
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 13):
Well, let me ask you this: How many strategic bombers does Sweden have? Zero.... Too bad you can't afford any of them.

What the hell would we do with strategic bombers? The Swedish Air Force hasn't bombed anything at all, and AFAIK, the only air to ground strike Sweden has actually conducted was taking out the rickety buckets that made up the rebel airforce during the UN operation in the Congo in the '60s, using air to ground missiles. The Swedish Air Force is not primarily an offensive weapon, which is why it only employs one basic combat aircraft, the JAS 39 Gripen. But hey, if there actually was a need for it, I'm sure the government would pour some extra cash into the air force.

I was overstating and generalizing a little in my previous post, but I did see an interview with a Russian Air Force pilot a couple of years ago, and he was complaining that he only got a total of 10 hrs of air time/year.

Cheers
Mats
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OlegShv
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 14):
Maybe they just happen to have their priorities right. Or do you think having a strategic bombers while not having decent health care (resulting in life expectancy like in sub-Saharan Africa) or no paved roads 30 km outside of capital is better???

All I see in your post is exaggerations. I agree that Russian healthcare system is far from being ideal, life expectancy is not something that is determined entirely from the state of government healthcare system.

http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/7023-14.cfm

Quote:
Demographic and health-care experts say that the chief factors behind the poor figures are alcohol abuse, psychological stress caused by economic uncertainty, widespread smoking, poor personal-safety practices, an unhealthy diet and a general lack of exercise.

The biggest problem with Russia is not the amount of money they allocate for roads or healthcare, or bombers for that sake. The problem they have is called widespread corruption. No matter how large their budget is, corruption will render all government social programs pretty much meaningless.

Quoting Doona (Reply 15):
What the hell would we do with strategic bombers?

I don't know. May be fly them near the Russian border to annoy them.  Wink

Quoting Doona (Reply 15):
I was overstating and generalizing a little in my previous post, but I did see an interview with a Russian Air Force pilot a couple of years ago, and he was complaining that he only got a total of 10 hrs of air time/year.

Indeed, I've read about the lack of flying practice in Russia's Air Force. Hopefuly this will change as their economy gets stronger. BTW, I apologize for the tone in my previous post.
 
WestJetForLife
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:51 am

Quoting Runway777 (Reply 2):
i think if anything happened russia would win..

It'd be a tie, in my opinion.

Even after SALT and START treaties in the 1980s and early 90s, the US and Russia still have substantial nuclear stockpiles. Russia still has Typhoon and Delta-IV class nuclear submarines sitting around, as does the U.S. with Ohio-class subs at Kings Bay and Bangor naval bases. Fact is, it's a tie between them because they both still have large enough nuclear missile sites. It's MAD: mutually assured destruction. In my opinion, as a civilian, I do not believe that Mr. Putin or Mr. Bush will have any major conflicts with each other.

In the event of a conventional war, it would be a hard one to pick. Russia has one of the largest air fleets, sure, but their fleet is turning old. Graphic, they have numerous pilots, heck, even some Aeroflot pilots are cold reserve fighter/bomber pilots, but the issue is that they don't have the same technology as the United States does, despite technological advances courtesy of the Western World. Some TU-160s are so old, they're still running off of dials and levers instead of CRT/LCD displays (key word some, not all). The Russians could win if they took out U.S. strategic forces first, but it would be hard for them to without NORAD, PAVE PAWS or Early Warning Command knowing.

In a land war, it would be impossible to judge, as would a sea war. They have equal forces, but different ways of running them. Some forces (infantry and tank divisions) would succeed on the Russian front, but that's because they have different training tactics from that of the United States, or even Canada for that matter.

So, Russia would not win, nor would the United States. It would be a stalemate between the two. And if it turns into a nuclear stalemate, then nobody wins, everybody (in the global spectrum) loses.

Nik
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CastleIsland
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting WestJetForLife (Reply 17):
So, Russia would not win, nor would the United States. It would be a stalemate between the two. And if it turns into a nuclear stalemate, then nobody wins, everybody (in the global spectrum) loses.

This was the classic position of nearly everyone I knew, spoke to, or heard on the news growing up in the 1970s. It seemed like a real threat, but in the end, the major players had to know that this sort of competition merely sets up a lose-lose situation, so why bother?
"People don't do what they believe in, they just do what's most convenient, then they repent." - Dylan
 
WestJetForLife
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:07 am

Quoting CastleIsland (Reply 18):
This was the classic position of nearly everyone I knew, spoke to, or heard on the news growing up in the 1970s. It seemed like a real threat, but in the end, the major players had to know that this sort of competition merely sets up a lose-lose situation, so why bother?

Exactly. If, and only if, a nuclear war were to break out between the present-day United States and Russia, both countries would be ruined. The EMP that would probably happen during the onset of the attack would cripple the world economy because the NYSE, the TSX and such would be gone.

Even if it was a limited nuclear exchange (say 1000 megatons and 9 million lives taken on each side), it would be devastating. Our world as we know it would never be able to recover, especially if an EMP were to take out CONUS and Canada.

If another Cold War occurs, the threat won't be nuclear, but will most likely be conventional and/or occupational. Think "Red Dawn" and multiply it by five or so.

*NOTE*: I am not an expert on this. If you see any holes or problems, please tell me.

Nik
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:43 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 6):
Shame that Poland actually cooperates with the US on this.

Its a shame we believed France and Britain 60 years back. Its a shame we have to share a border with Germany and Russia.

I dont give a rats ass if half of the US Armed forces are in Poland and even better if it pisses off Moscow, Paris and Berlin and is seen as un-European.
 
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WildcatYXU
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:12 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 12):
I'm always wondering about one thing: why is Russia constantly complaining about former "Soviet Satellite" states joining the EU and NATO?

Probably they want them back under their own influence. The pro-commie sentiment is still strong trough the former commie countries ( basically that was the reason why I moved from Slovakia to Canada). It's really easy to abuse this kind of sentiment, especially in Slavic countries, where the idea of panslavism is still alive and well. Now, membership in EU and NATO makes any influencing much harder...

Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 20):
Its a shame we believed France and Britain 60 years back. Its a shame we have to share a border with Germany and Russia.

Well, rather than the whole Britain I blame a certain Mr. Chamberlain. I still can't decide if he was a dickless nobody or a cold, calculating sonofabitch.
Why would be a border with Germany and Russia a shame?
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LOT767-300ER
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:21 pm

Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 21):
Well, rather than the whole Britain I blame a certain Mr. Chamberlain. I still can't decide if he was a dickless nobody or a cold, calculating sonofabitch.
Why would be a border with Germany and Russia a shame?

I dont like sharing borders with 2nd rate countries  Silly
 
TheCol
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 3:37 pm

Quoting WestJetForLife (Reply 19):
If another Cold War occurs, the threat won't be nuclear,

I disagree. Both countries would rather risk MAD than loose to each other.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
WestJetForLife
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:01 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 23):
I disagree. Both countries would rather risk MAD than loose to each other.

In today's world, with the current geopolitical clime, it's anyone's guess.

I'm just not sure if it'll be Putin or Bush. I don't usually play politics with nuclear war, but in this case, as a knowledgeable person, I really don't see Bush or Putin really hating each other, despite the fact that the States want to place anti-ballistic missile sites in Poland.

I personally believe it isn't a risk right now, but it could be a risk if Putin turns anti-American either after Bush leaves office, or because Bush goes right along and places those anti-ICBM sites in eastern Europe. It was the same thing with the Pershing II missiles in Turkey during the 1960s. The Soviets didn't want them there, so they almost started a war because of it.

Once again, I am simply civilian, and I do not play the military ballgame that often. I am just stating what I know.

Nik
I need a drink.
 
HowSwedeitis
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 8:00 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 8):
All their ordnance and ammo is under the control of a single bureaucrat and he has so far been unable to get a phone in his office.

What proof do you have of this?

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 13):
Well, let me ask you this: How many strategic bombers does Sweden have? Zero.... Too bad you can't afford any of them.

Oh! That's right, we spent it all on healthcare and medicine on our people. Unlike your nation, which has a 12% poverty rate, and a pretty bad healthcare system...  cheeky 
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SlamClick
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:49 pm

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 11):
What makes you think Canada was OK with Stalin???

The couple dozen arguments, some of them very heated, with Canadians who stated their belief that the Cold War was almost entirely the invention of the United States and that Canada would never have been in any danger from the USSR if it were not for the warmongering of the US. That's what.

Add Canada's proposal to build a monument to the US draft dodgers who fled to Canada when the US, Australia, South Korea, Thailand and New Zealand were fighting Stalin-style communist expansion in South Vietnam.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 11):
Or do you think because we have socialized health care that we must be partially in bed with communists?

Not all truth and wisdom will fit on a bumper sticker or a t-shirt. Perhaps you should consider reading lengthier tomes and maybe you would have guessed at my two responses to your first question.
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halls120
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting TZ757300 (Thread starter):
What does everyone think of this?

Other than it's been a slow news day for this story to get the airplay it did, not much.

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 13):
What's the big fuss about Russian Air Force training flights? The media makes it sound like a super huge news, and unfortunately most people here are naive enough to listen seriously to this crap. They make it sound like Russian Air Force are the only ones who fly training missions. I bet USAF fly their B52s and B2s around the globe and nobody here gives a crap about it.

 checkmark 

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 16):
The biggest problem with Russia is not the amount of money they allocate for roads or healthcare, or bombers for that sake. The problem they have is called widespread corruption. No matter how large their budget is, corruption will render all government social programs pretty much meaningless.

 checkmark 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
SlamClick
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:56 pm

Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 25):
What proof do you have of this?

You took that seriously? Holy cow! I don't know what to say.

Question: What's half a mile long and eats cabbage?
Answer: The line at a Russian meat market.


They are called jokes. Some are too obvious for smileys.
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OlegShv
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 25):
Oh! That's right, we spent it all on healthcare and medicine on our people. Unlike your nation, which has a 12% poverty rate, and a pretty bad healthcare system...

Read below.

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 16):
The biggest problem with Russia is not the amount of money they allocate for roads or healthcare, or bombers for that sake. The problem they have is called widespread corruption. No matter how large their budget is, corruption will render all government social programs pretty much meaningless.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:18 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 26):
The couple dozen arguments, some of them very heated, with Canadians who stated their belief that the Cold War was almost entirely the invention of the United States and that Canada would never have been in any danger from the USSR if it were not for the warmongering of the US. That's what.

That's funny, a few Canadians (certainly not the majority) think that the cold war was invented by the US and you go and say Canada was ok with Stalin? Have you not heard of NORAD etc? We are well aware of how brutal Stalin was and of his atrocities. Stop making it sound like there's universal acceptance of Stalin in Canada.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 26):
Add Canada's proposal to build a monument to the US draft dodgers who fled to Canada when the US, Australia, South Korea, Thailand and New Zealand were fighting Stalin-style communist expansion in South Vietnam.

Right, so a monument built 30 years after the fact means we're ok with Stalin. Not to mention that US government pardoned draft dodgers not long ago did it not? I guess the US is ok with Stalin too! We can be comrades!  Yeah sure

Don't forget many Canadians fought in Vietnam too, in the US army.
 
SlamClick
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:57 am

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 30):
Right, so a monument built 30 years after the fact means we're ok with Stalin.

No. It means that a sizable percentage of you are more "okay with" law-breaking draft dodgers than you are with the honorable service in opposition to Stalin-like communist expansion. Proof: You have not proposed any monument to US citizens who served in the Vietnam war, only to those who evaded it. That entire issue is a complete slam-dunk. Next!

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 30):
Not to mention that US government pardoned draft dodgers not long ago did it not? I guess the US is ok with Stalin too!

The USG issued the pardon to avoid having to spend millions of dollars in pointless prosecutions. Hardly an endorsement of their "cause."

Had their offenses remained open on the books we would have been forced to prosecute any time there was an opportunity to do so. I do not agree with those who fled to Canada but I don't think the limited resources of our justice system should have been squandered in prosecuting them. They did what they believed and will live the lives that brought them.

Still pretty much a slap in the face to the rest of the US to even suggest building a monument to honor them.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 30):
Don't forget many Canadians fought in Vietnam too, in the US army.

I'm well aware of that, having served in Vietnam (and after) with many of them. Out of simple curiosity I'd like to know how their numbers compare with the number of US citizens who went north to avoid such service.

The entire point of my original post is still there however. Unless one is excessively sensitive on the subject, it is pretty funny. US and USSR are the big faces of the cold war. Canada less so - almost reduced to the no-man's-land between the Russian and US missile sites on either side of them. More years go by and Canada is seen by Europe and the middle east as the un-hawkish presence on the North American continent - American tourists go so far as to wear maple leaves when they travel Europe. Canadians are well-known for being critical of their neighbors to the south regarding mid-east policy, even parroting the "war-over-oil" mantras on this forum.

Now Russia plants a flag offshore and by far the most militant voice against Russia is who? Canada? Yes, Canada. It should stike you funny too.

Did we mention that it is reported that as much as 25% of the world's oil reserves are in that region? Can we all say "war-over-oil?"
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sw733
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RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sun Aug 12, 2007 3:24 am

Quoting MKEdude (Reply 9):
If he finds a way to stay on then we know that the cold war is back for real.

Oh please. Not true at all. A lot of places have leaders who have found a way to stay in charge longer than they are supposed to. It just means they are corrupt, not threatening.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 14):
Maybe they just happen to have their priorities right. Or do you think having a strategic bombers while not having decent health care (resulting in life expectancy like in sub-Saharan Africa) or no paved roads 30 km outside of capital is better???

Hmmmm....Ok, lets look at facts. I shall compare Russia to my country, Namibia, which is pretty good in terms of sub-Saharan Africa on a lot of fronts...heck I'll even give you the USA on the roads part, and some other sub-Saharan countries on the first part:

Life Expectancy: Russia = 65.87 years, Namibia = 43.11 years, South Africa = 42.45 years, Nigeria = 47.44 years, ZImbabwe = 39.5 years, Kenya = 55.31 years, Ghana = 59.12 years, Central African Republic = 43.74 years....Don't forget how big of a problem AIDS is when you start making such extreme statements. As someone born and raised in sub-Saharan Africa, I take offense when you say that we're in as GOOD of a situation as Russia...their life expectancy is miles above what my country can shoot for anytime soon. We're in need of some big help, don't turn your back on us.

Paved Roads: Russia = 84.73% of roads are paved (738,000km of their 871,000km are paved), USA = 64.77% of roads are paved (4,165,110km of their 6,430,366km are paved), Namibia = 12.80% of roads are paved (5,406km of our 42,237km are paved)
 
HowSwedeitis
Posts: 471
Joined: Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:59 am

RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:42 pm

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 29):
Read below.

And this has to deal with Sweden how?

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 28):
You took that seriously?

I forgot some don't consider all of conversation to be serious. (Funny joke though. An exclamation point might have helped!)
Heja Sverige!!
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Mon Aug 13, 2007 6:01 am

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 13):
What's the big fuss about Russian Air Force training flights? The media makes it sound like a super huge news, and unfortunately most people here are naive enough to listen seriously to this crap. They make it sound like Russian Air Force are the only ones who fly training missions. I bet USAF fly their B52s and B2s around the globe and nobody here gives a crap about it.

If another country flying their nuclear capable bombers over your airspace doesn't bother you, you are vary naive at best.

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 13):
For example, did anyone read about this incident:

Flying a plane loaded with camera's over someone elses country is very different from flying a plane loaded with nuclear weapons.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:48 pm

Putin is delusional. Russia is not a player in the new Cold War.

Deterrent is alive and well. To say otherwise is quite insane. Russia is safe from any and all attacks.

The new Cold War is the USA vs China. That war is not so much nuclear but overall strategic. China's goal is to beat the USA on the battlefield and underwater, in a defensive battle near Taiwan. That is why you see them building up forces near Taiwan -- it's designed to intimidate and beat the USA by any means possible. Their spies are all over the USA getting the latest info on the USA's unmanned, space, nuclear, laser, stealth, and smart weapons. China needs to counter all these, and they will. With Russia's help.

To talk about Europe is so... 1960s. If Putin tries to invade EU countries, he will have a shooting war. Why even talk about it, he is in no position to make any threats other than terroristic nuclear threats.
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:59 pm

Quoting WestJetForLife (Reply 17):
So, Russia would not win, nor would the United States. It would be a stalemate between the two. And if it turns into a nuclear stalemate, then nobody wins, everybody (in the global spectrum) loses.

I am not sure where you get the idea that Russia and USA have equal militaries. They do not.

The USA has a much stronger military and more productive capacity to build equipment if the need arises. Russia could certainly do some serious damage, but win? I am not sure they have the boats to even get close to us. Our weapons are simply better, and we have more of them.

For example, Russia does not really field any aircraft carriers right now. They simply cannot project force the way we can. Even Putin will agree with this.
 
WestJetForLife
Posts: 704
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:37 am

RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Mon Aug 13, 2007 4:13 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 36):

Flighty, the point I was trying to make is that neither country would win. Each would lose to some extent. In the ultimate end, it would turn into a war of attrition.

I agree with you, however, that Russia's forces cannot compete in modern times with the United States. Your (the U.S.) army, navy, air force and marine corps would kick the Russians back across the ocean back to the Motherland. They have the ultimate in military force.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clearer in my previous post.

Nik
I need a drink.
 
Doona
Posts: 3382
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2005 9:43 am

RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Mon Aug 13, 2007 7:37 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
China's goal is to beat the USA on the battlefield and underwater, in a defensive battle near Taiwan.

As far as I can tell, China's only goal at the moment seems to be taking all your money. And they're doing pretty well so far.

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
OlegShv
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Mar 06, 2006 7:22 am

RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:51 am

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 34):
If another country flying their nuclear capable bombers over your airspace doesn't bother you, you are vary naive at best.

The article said that the bombers visited the area of Guam. Did they actually fly over the airfield there? Probably not, because they are not that stupid. Most likely they have been in the internatinal airspace around Guam. Moreover, I'm guessing that NATO might have been notified by the Russians before the exercise. The reason the jets were scrambled is that USAF also needs to exercise.

Keep in mind that in reality, these bombers don't even need to get over US territory to deploy their weapons. They just need to be in range for their cruise missiles, which is probably around 1000 miles or so. Hence, the whole point of panicing after they flew nearby is ridiculous.

Tell me where does USAF fly their bombers on long-range training missions? Hint: It's probably very near Russian border, but you, of course, don't consider that a problem.

Also, if you didn't know, then I'll have to enlighten you: both US and Russia at any moment have several subs loaded with nukes on active duty in the Atlantic. Does that bother you?

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 34):
Flying a plane loaded with camera's over someone elses country is very different from flying a plane loaded with nuclear weapons.

 Confused So, flying a spy-plane over their territory is OK and should be seen as a friendly gesture? I think most people here need to get of the high horse and admit that US is not all that friendly towards Russia. They make it look like USA is so nice and polite, and Russia is the badass Evil Empire.

The reality is that Russia is emerging from its economic and political meltdown after the collapse of the Soviet Union and is trying to regain some leverage in the world. Of course US and EU don't like it, but Russia wants its slice of the pie and is now seen as a competitor on international arena. I doubt that there is going to be another Cold War as we saw it, but there is certainly a competition, which I hope will not go too far.

Quoting HowSwedeitis (Reply 33):
And this has to deal with Sweden how?

Well, it's you who started talking about the differences between Russia and Sweden in priorities of government spending, not me.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
If Putin tries to invade EU countries

 Confused Why would he want to do that?
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:04 am

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 39):
The article said that the bombers visited the area of Guam. Did they actually fly over the airfield there?

A Russian bomber flew over a U.S. naval base on the Pacific island of Guam on Wednesday and "exchanged smiles" with U.S. pilots who had scrambled to track it, said Major-General Pavel Androsov, head of long-range aviation in the Russian air force.

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 39):
Tell me where does USAF fly their bombers on long-range training missions? Hint: It's probably very near Russian border, but you, of course, don't consider that a problem.

Actually the U.S. is a lot more aggressive when it comes to over flights. The U.S. has overflown Russian air space many times with all sorts of planes. On time the U.S. actually flew a bunch of bombers into Siberia to gauge the Russians reactions and radar capability.
I personally don't think the U.S. or the Russians should be sneaking planes into each others airspace. That is how planes get shot down and wars start.
It's not a near miss it's a near hit!!
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:59 am

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 39):
Why would he want to do that?

I don't know, then what is Putin talking about? Why is he making new missiles? I think he may not be delusional after all, but he is just play-acting. Giving himself an "excuse" to build the next generation of nuclear, electronic and sonar weapons. All funded by Chinese dollars from Beijing, and we will see these next-gen Russian weapons in Chinese hands before you know it.

How's that for a conspiracy theory? Quite proud of myself for that one.  Smile
 
Flighty
Posts: 9963
Joined: Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:07 am

RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:17 am

Quoting WestJetForLife (Reply 37):

I agree with you, however, that Russia's forces cannot compete in modern times with the United States. Your (the U.S.) army, navy, air force and marine corps would kick the Russians back across the ocean back to the Motherland. They have the ultimate in military force.

Sorry if I didn't make myself clearer in my previous post.

No problem... I am not necessarily proud of the US's immense military might, but it is what it is. The more I learn about it, the more I am shocked how many ships, guns and aircraft the USA has standing at the ready. Their level of technology and training is pretty good too.

I would never say America is a better country, or anything like that by definition, but its military is truly a mind numbingly large operation. The key difference in addition to its size, is that the US Military gets all the funding it wants, and always has. The equipment is maintained and the soldiers are paid. This adds to the power more than mere equipment counts would suggest.
 
WestJetForLife
Posts: 704
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 3:37 am

RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:16 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 42):
The key difference in addition to its size, is that the US Military gets all the funding it wants, and always has. The equipment is maintained and the soldiers are paid.

With that quote, I agree with what you are saying.

The United States has had the military funding to maintain and support its fighting men and women ever since the World Wars. I'm not saying that either country has a better military (hey, I'm from Canada, I stay neutral in the whole process), but what I am saying, is that you just proved that the United States Armed Forces, if dealt with a (hopefully fictional) scenario of Russia vs. America, that America would most likely inflict the most damage in the battle by conventional means.

Nik
I need a drink.
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9261
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Cold War Coming Back To Life?

Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:34 am

They are all down here in Monaco. The place has more and more Russians. They are all over MC and they buy off a lot of property in the Princely State. I wonder where that money comes from.  confused 

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 16):

The biggest problem with Russia is not the amount of money they allocate for roads or healthcare, or bombers for that sake. The problem they have is called widespread corruption.
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde

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