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OU812
Posts: 563
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 2:19 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:02 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 99):
This has been, in my lifetime, and that spans five decades, there has not been a more polarizing figure in the WH

What you are going to have to realize is the fact that the times in which we live are very trying times.{ie Terrorism} We are fighting a war that does not have borders, nor a sole reasonable government. We are dealing with rough nations that have money from oil that will not have a problem financing terrorist with nuclear weaponry & that indoctrinate their young to kill all doesn't believe their twisted ways. Which is almost done entirely by proxy, not to mention clandestinely. Making this fight much more complex than what we have dealt with in the past.

But true to your nature. You completely over look those facts & blame America. And are only concerned with your party, not what's right for our nation!

Bin Laden declared war on our nation when Clinton was pres.. Question is why? What did Clinton do to piss them off? Nothing.... he kissed there ass's. So what does that tell you? Clinton was wrong? No! It tells you we are dealing with completely unreasonable people! Wish you would get that!



P. S. I'm sure Falcon84 is a great father & hard worker. But politically, he's partison & irresponsible.
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:56 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 99):
RJ, he is the MAIN political strategist for this President. Has been all 7 years. And through the president's policies, his demeanor, his actions, he has polarized this nation.

When did democrats in Congress even give the Presidents polices a chance to see if they would succeed without immediately belittling them and the President as well as his cabinet members and advisors? The only program that comes to mind is no child left behind and as soon as it was passed they were complaining that it had not been funded enough. When Tom Daschle was the majority leader of the Senate, what did he do? How did he in any way shape or form work with the President to help shape policy?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 99):
Remember "I'm a uniter, not a divider."? Well, he hasn't been, and in large part due to the influence of Karl Rove and his confrontational political beliefs.

Exactly when has the President or Karl Rove come out and been openly confrontational with any democrat? The President continues to say nice things about Speaker Pelosi when she comes back and says some of the most deragotory and rude statements in return. The current Speaker has more or less said that this President is irrevelant and that this Congress will do as it pleases, although they have failed miserably so far to back that statement up. Has the President or Karl Rove ever said or intoned same towards her or any other member of Congress? No, you can try and say that Karl Rove was confrontational if you wish. The fact is that he, and the President, stuck by their guns and that is not being confrontational, that is holding to your principles and it's a shame that more politicians can't do that.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
davestanKSAN
Posts: 1532
Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2005 3:32 pm

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:13 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 101):
When did democrats in Congress even give the Presidents polices a chance to see if they would succeed without immediately belittling them and the President as well as his cabinet members and advisors?

Goodness gracious, did you really just say that? How about the 6 years of policies prior to that? How about the Immigration policy? Would you say it was belittled by the Democrats or Republicans?

Dave
Yesterday we've sinned, today we move towards God. Touch the sky....love and respect...Safe Star!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting OU812 (Reply 100):
What you are going to have to realize is the fact that the times in which we live are very trying times

So? And what's that got to do with Bush polarizing the nation? Not a damn thing, does it?

Quoting OU812 (Reply 100):
Bin Laden declared war on our nation when Clinton was pres.. Question is why? What did Clinton do to piss them off? Nothing.... he kissed there ass's. So what does that tell you?

He didn't declare the war during Clntion's incumbency; he did so during Bush 41's. He has said so much: he was aghast at the presence of American troops in his homeland of Saudi Arabia, and they were used against Arab (never mind Arabs fought with us). That, along with our support for Israel. That turned him against us, which is his problem.

Clinton never kissed his ass. That's one of the most assinine, irresponsible statements every made on here and it sets your next quote into proper context.

Quoting OU812 (Reply 100):
P. S. I'm sure Falcon84 is a great father & hard worker. But politically, he's partison & irresponsible.

This from a person who just said Clinton kissed bin Laden's ass. This from a person who simply can't see the truth of what's going on in this nation.

And you want me to take you SERIOUSLY? You're living in a dreamworld, with such comments. Good God, wake up. George W. Bush isn't a god, and he isn't infallable. And he also isn't a very good president.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:39 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 103):
This from a person who simply can't see the truth of what's going on in this nation.



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 103):
Quoting OU812 (Reply 100):
P. S. I'm sure Falcon84 is a great father & hard worker. But politically, he's partison & irresponsible.

I think I am more worried, Falcon, about you being partison (sic) than you being irresponsible. Quite a few hits. Is being partison becoming a trend one has to ask and is it painful?

I can track the word down to a number of other sources.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=13&entry_id=18211
Funny thing is that this is the same partison politcs that happen on both sides of the aile. This is why I hate politics because you can get away with a lot as long as your guy is in the white house Dems and Repubs alike are guilty of this BS!!! it makes me sick that there are innocent people behind bars like that kid in GA who had sex and they had some backwood law that they used to put the kid away for 10 years and they still feel like they did the right thing even after they repelled the law...our justice system is a joke

Posted By: rondog | July 02 2007 at 04:40 PM
AND
http://mediamatters.org/items/200506030002?offset=20&show=1
REAL FIRST: First time the opposition party stooped to trying to make personal behavior a matter of HIGH CRIME and MISDEMEANOR, in a desperate attempt to unseat the duly elected president. Everlasting shame is on the heads of those who so disrespected AMERICA that they put their partison rancor above the wellbeing of our nation.

MMMMMMMM!!!!
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:20 pm

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 102):
Goodness gracious, did you really just say that?

Yes, name one policy of initiative the democrats have stood up for aside from No child left behind which they then instantly derided.

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 102):
How about the 6 years of policies prior to that?

How about it? Which one, except the one mentioned above, did the democrats work in a true bipartisanship fashion with the President on? How many democrats came out and called the President a failure, or some other derogatory name, or demonized his cabinet members or advisors to include Karl Rove? How many judges that the President nominated were actually confirmed, or even given hearings during the period when Daschelle ran the Senate?

Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 102):
How about the Immigration policy? Would you say it was belittled by the Democrats or Republicans?

By both and with good reason. I've never claimed this President was perfect and when it comes to government spending and immigration policy he has fallen short of the mark.

Policy and individuals that are demonized by the opposition before they are even given a chance, and are continued to be demonized even when they are shown to work, as in the tax cuts, are what democrats are famous for. They stand for we want everything paid for, and paid for by someone else. I would ask you to point out when the President, or Karl Rove has ever come out and spoke about the opposition in the way that the opposition daily speaks about them. The true reason they demonized Karl Rove is not because he is evil, it is because he was able to beat the democrats at the polls time and again. Even in defeat he won as I mentioned above. So Rove becomes the focus of democrats. Get rid of Rove and the President is on the ropes. Do you really think any democratic Congress person gave a hoot about Valerie Plame? If they did how come they weren't demanding that Richard Armitage, a democrat, be prosecuted for giving up Plame? Meanwhile they did everything they could to try and direct the line back to Rove's office. Do you really think that any Senator cares which asst AG's are hired and fired? Once again it was a way to get back at the person who caused them to lose power and that is the name of the democrats game.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Fri Aug 17, 2007 11:58 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 105):
Yes, name one policy of initiative the democrats have stood up for aside from No child left behind which they then instantly derided.

Tell me, RJ, who didn't fund the initiative? The president and the GOP Congress, that's who. He put it in as yet another unfunded mandate. And you blame the DEMOCRATS for that? Jeez.....

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 105):
How about it? Which one, except the one mentioned above, did the democrats work in a true bipartisanship fashion with the President on? How many democrats came out and called the President a failure, or some other derogatory name, or demonized his cabinet members or advisors to include Karl Rove? How many judges that the President nominated were actually confirmed, or even given hearings during the period when Daschelle ran the Senate?

And the Republicans were singing "hearts and flowers" during Mr. Clinton's tenure, were they? And you have the balls to complain about the Democrats? Jeez...

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 105):
I've never claimed this President was perfect

Couldn't tell by reading your stuff on this forum.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:20 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 106):
Tell me, RJ, who didn't fund the initiative?

To the level that the democrats, make that the NEA wanted. Of course the NEA was against No Child Left Behind from the beginning since it meant they actually had to teach their students something they would tested on instead of just experiment on them. More than enough money was earmarked for the program, but more than enough is not enough for democrats.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 106):
And you blame the DEMOCRATS for that?

I blame the democrats for cowtowing to the NEA and being for the program before being against it ala John Kerry.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 106):
And the Republicans were singing "hearts and flowers" during Mr. Clinton's tenure, were they?

Welfare reform, a balanced budget, base closures, defense spending, just to name a few of the bipartisan legislative and policy efforts accomplished between the republican controlled Congress and President Clinton. You didn't hear the republicans crying about how not enough welfare mothers were not taken off the rolls, nor how we should have reduced the budget even more. Once the deal was made the republicans held up their end of the bargain. Democrats cannot say the same.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 106):
Couldn't tell by reading your stuff on this forum.

I have always maintained that I disagree with this Presidents spending and immigration policies.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:09 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 107):
To the level that the democrats, make that the NEA wanted

Puhleez. The Republicans could have funded it to the extent that was necessary, but instead, the President wanted to hang the money on the state and local governments. The Democrats could not have blocked it, in any way. Then again, Bush did the same thing in Texas, and all it does is drill kids to take tests, not to learn:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008701

So Bush has basically federalized local schools, and tasked them to learn tests, not to learn real-life skilss.

So much for that, on all kinds of levels.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 107):
Of course the NEA was against No Child Left Behind from the beginning since it meant they actually had to teach their students something they would tested on instead of just experiment on them.

Teaching kids to pass a test isn't teaching. It's drilling, and does them no good. My father taught for 30 years, and he's right when he says it's a disaster for kids, teacher, and everyone.

We're not teaching kids to learn and to think. We're teaching them rote on how to pass tests. Maybe you think that's an improvement, but it's another Bush disaster.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 107):
More than enough money was earmarked for the program, but more than enough is not enough for democrats.

Not enough was, which, in the end, might not be a bad thing, because, hopefullly, come January 2009, it'll go by the wayside, and these stupid tests will be tossed, and kids can start LEARNING again, instead of being drilled on how to pass a useless test.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 107):
I blame the democrats for cowtowing to the NEA and being for the program before being against it ala John Kerry.

Hell, you blame the Democrats for EVERYTHING. So, what's new?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 107):
You didn't hear the republicans crying about how not enough welfare mothers were not taken off the rolls, nor how we should have reduced the budget even more. Once the deal was made the republicans held up their end of the bargain. Democrats cannot say the same.

No, you only heard them crying over a blowjob that the president lied about. You had them whining over Whitewater, "Filegate", "Travelgate", Vince Foster, Ron Brown, yadda yadda yadda.

In the end, both sides whined. But you single out one side. How quaint.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:25 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 108):
The Republicans could have funded it to the extent that was necessary

Which they did, which is never enough for democrats. You and your incessant whining about how the rich are not being taxed enough even though tax receipts are higher than ever are proof of that.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 108):
The Democrats could not have blocked it, in any way

They had enough votes to kill anything they wanted to in the Senate.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 108):
and all it does is drill kids to take tests, not to learn:

Such a shame that drilling involves essential skills like reading, writing, and arithmetic.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 108):
not to learn real-life skilss.

Like spelling?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 108):
Teaching kids to pass a test isn't teaching.

Not to teachers it isn't. They aren't happy unless they get to "experiment" with kids.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 108):
My father taught for 30 years, and he's right when he says it's a disaster for kids, teacher, and everyone.

Then maybe he should take a look at the improved scores of school age kids since the policy was implemented.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 108):
Maybe you think that's an improvement,

Yes I do. Before no child left behind the teacher taught to the dumbest kid. Now the dumbest kid either gets their act together, gets extra help, shucks that means the teacher would have to do something, or gets left behind which is the way it should be.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 108):
and these stupid tests will be tossed, and kids can start LEARNING again

So the teachers can sit back and be LAZY again with no type of real assessment as to how they do their job. Oops I forgot, they should get merit raises just for showing up, not showing they can accomplish their job and actually teach someone something.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 108):
Hell, you blame the Democrats for EVERYTHING

And by the approval ratings of Congress, I'm right to.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 108):
How quaint.

That you would list not a single policy or legislative initiative which is what my post was about. How typical.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:57 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 109):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 108):
and all it does is drill kids to take tests, not to learn:

Such a shame that drilling involves essential skills like reading, writing, and arithmetic.

Read that article I posted. The part about that teacher who quit? Here's the prargraph:

Is it too early to tell? As a parent who has had children in public schools since NCLB began, I don't think so. The Frederick County, Md., schools our children have attended have turned themselves inside out to try to produce the right test results, with dismaying effects on the content of classroom instruction and devastating effects on teacher morale. We actually lost our best English teacher to the effects of high-stakes testing. "I want to teach my students how to write," he said, "not teach them how to pass a test that says they can write." He quit.

So we're NOT teaching them the three R's, I beg your pardon, RJ. We're teaching to pass a test. And that's not education. Education isn't about passing a test. It's about LEARNING, and you're not learning squat when you have to pass a bureaucratic test to advance. It used to be you had to satisfy the school to pass a test. Now-and I think as a conservative, you would blanche at this-you have to satisfy the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

So it isn't learning. It's rote. It's not about learning English, or History. It's learning to pass a test about it. There's a difference. For all your talk, as a conservative, about not having the fucking government in our lives, you come out for this monstrosity? And all-and I mean absolutely all because-Mr. Bush thinks it's smart.

And the results are putting us further and further at a disadvantage.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 109):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 108):
Teaching kids to pass a test isn't teaching.

Not to teachers it isn't.

No, it isn't. Most of them want kids to LEARN, not simply learn to pass a test. Again, there's a difference. But no, you have to satisfy bureaucrats. Is that what you want? As a conservative, again, I think you'd loathe that federal intrusion.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 109):
Then maybe he should take a look at the improved scores of school age kids since the policy was implemented.

Improved NCLB scores? Again, it's a government-imposed TEST. That does not mean they're learning any better. It means they're learning to get through BUREAUCRACY.

And, the truth is, there is little improvment going on:

http://sitemaker.umich.edu/keller.35...ment_initiatives__problems_of_nclb

http://www.rethinkingschools.org/spe...ial_reports/bushplan/nclb181.shtml

And, again, local schools are under the microscope of the FEDERAL GOVENMENT, who will decide who is improving, by their standards, and who is not. That is such a gross and massive government intrusion that it's sickening, and it is not working. It's creating a generation of chidlren who are learning how to pass a test, not learning how to become smarter and better students.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 109):
Yes I do. Before no child left behind the teacher taught to the dumbest kid. Now the dumbest kid either gets their act together, gets extra help, shucks that means the teacher would have to do something, or gets left behind which is the way it should be

Ah, so it isn't "No Child Left Behind". It's a fascist-type system where we leave the weakest behind, the one that needs individualized assistance, who could improve if he's given proper help, but the GOVERNMENT will decide that he/she isn't fit enough.

So, the real name should be "Lot's of Children Left Behind Because They're Stuipd". That's what it is. It's a lie, and it's leaving THOUSANDS of students behind.

You just damned the whole NCLB system, because it's a misnomer, it's a lie, and it's damaging many of our children, who now cannot get a decemt education.

And, conversely, while we underfund this protram for public schools, the administration has no problem trying to heap billions of $$ on private schools and magnet schools. And many magnet schools in a lot of states, operate with little oversight.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 109):
So the teachers can sit back and be LAZY again with no type of real assessment as to how they do their job.

Talk about in idiotic broad-brush of an enitre group. Most teachers aren't LAZY. Most want children to succeed, and become educated, decent citizens. But instead of letting them teach, they're being ordred to drill on a test, not to teach the basics. That isn't learning.

How come it is, RJ, you feel, as a conservative, that most things are better served without Federal intrusion? That, as most of us believe, the government can't even get the most simple thing done. But here you are, SUPPORTING a massive federal intrustion into our local communities, into the lives of parents, teachers and students, and making them WORSE, not better learners? Why is that? Are you simply a hypocrite?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 109):
And by the approval ratings of Congress, I'm right to.

 rotfl 

They've been in power 7 months. The GOP Congress was in power for over a Decade. It is they, more than this Democrat-controlled Congress, that has failed us. When the Dems are back in power for as long as the GOP was in Congress, get back to me about failuares. Right now, we're being stung by the actions, or lack thereof, of a GOP-dominated government, which has been in power for over a decade.

Again, NCLB needs to be scrapped. We need to do what most of us say is necessary in most other venues-let the communities take care of their own schools, and let them work to improve them. We don't need the weight of the Federal Government, an a damn-fool of these forced testing criteria to further erode our public school system.

In fact, I've come to the conclusion that's the whole purpose of this nonsense: to erode public education, at the expense of private education. It isn't meant to improve, it's meant to destroy.
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RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:28 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 110):
"I want to teach my students how to write," he said, "not teach them how to pass a test that says they can write." He quit.

In other words, as I stated above, he wants to be able to experiment, not teach the things a young person needs to survive and get a job.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 110):
So we're NOT teaching them the three R's, I beg your pardon, RJ. We're teaching to pass a test.

In order to past the test, what do they have to demonstrate that they have mastered?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 110):
Education isn't about passing a test. It's about LEARNING,

College level education or trade school level education is about learning at ones own pace and deciding what you want to learn. Grade school education is not divided into names like "elementary", "middle", and "preparatory or high" for nothing. If you don't have the basic skills mastered, you will never be able to successfully "learn" at a higher level. Take a look at college entrance courses. Many are geared to correcting what the young adult did not learn in the lower grades. In other words that young adult has to pay to learn something the teachers in the lower grades were supposed to teach them. What does that tell you?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 110):
Now-and I think as a conservative, you would blanche at this-you have to satisfy the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

Sometimes something is so badly wrecked that only the Federal government has the power to make things happen. After 40 years of NEA control, most schools in this country were beyond repair academically and so although I would generally agree that schools should be run locally, because of the national influence of the NEA the government has to act as a counter balance to their destructive influences.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 110):
It's not about learning English, or History. It's learning to pass a test about it.

Again, you have to show you've mastered the required level of both to move on. Where is your problem with that?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 110):
And all-and I mean absolutely all because-Mr. Bush thinks it's smart.

Considering Senator Kennedy was all for this program you might as well give him credit as well, I will.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 110):
And the results are putting us further and further at a disadvantage.

Source and facts please. The department of education would disagree with you.

http://www.ed.gov/nclb/overview/importance/nclbworking.html

For America's nine-year-olds in reading, more progress was made in five years than in the previous 28 combined.

America's nine-year-olds posted the best scores in reading (since 1971) and math (since 1973) in the history of the report.

America's 13-year-olds earned the highest math scores the test ever recorded.

Reading and math scores for African American and Hispanic nine-year-olds reached an all-time high.

Math scores for African American and Hispanic 13-year-olds reached an all-time high.

Achievement gaps in reading and math between white and African American nine-year-olds and between white and Hispanic nine-year-olds are at an all-time low.

And it goes on from there. Those are the measured facts.

Meanwhile from the sources, both liberal teacher sites go figure:

"but the neediest districts are receiving the bulk of the money, therefore other districts in need of increasing their achievement will have to find funding elsewhere."
I fail to understand why the neediest districts would not get the bulk of the money nor who could possibly complain about that except teachers in more affluent districts who just can't get that bond passed so they can get their raise and buy that new BMW.

"The pressure to pass AYP can, in theory, undermine a teacher's job to have their student's learn as much as possible."
I guess you have to ask the question, learn what? What the teacher would like to experiment with? Or what the student needs at that age and stage of their life to move on to the next level with a solid foundation?

"The purpose of our school systems should be to create well rounded students who have been educated to the best of their own abilities."
That should be the goal of higher education or trade schools. The purpose of our primary school systems should be to prepare the student to be able to function in society with a demonstrated mastery of reading, writing, and math. Part of the long standing problem with education, and educators in this country is that the 5th grade teacher wants the autonomy of the college professor, and the pay to boot. Nobody wants to teach the basics.

"Rethinking Schools began as a local effort to address problems such as basal readers, standardized testing, and textbook-dominated curriculum."
And that just about says it all for that group. They don't want to have to teach out of a textbook or have their work measured, they want to experiment and if the kid pays the price, oh well.

You want to know the real problem teacher have with NCLB?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Child_Left_Behind

"The No Child Left Behind act requires that (by the end of the 2006-07 school year)[3] all teachers be "highly qualified" as defined in the law. A highly qualified teacher is one who has (1) fulfilled the state's certification and licensing requirements, (2) obtained at least a bachelor's degree, and (3) demonstrated subject matter expertise. The procedure for demonstrating subject matter knowledge depends on a teacher's tenure and level of instruction.

For teachers who are new to the profession (less than one year of experience):

Elementary teachers must pass a state test demonstrating their subject knowledge and teaching skills in reading/language arts, writing, mathematics and other areas of basic elementary school curricula.
Middle and high school teachers must demonstrate a high level of competency in each academic subject area they teach, such demonstration can occur either through passage of a rigorous state academic subject test or successful completion of an undergraduate major, a graduate degree, coursework equivalent to an undergraduate major or an advanced certification or credentialing.
"

Teachers have historically lamented any kind of testing or any kind of standards being applied to their students that might show that they aren't good at their job. That's one of the big issues with the NEA. Merit pay without means testing.

Falcon, once a year I have to pass a desk check or I lose my job. I have to spend time in recurrent training, crew resource management training, and recurrent basic indoc. I have to study the company flight manual and the aircraft flight manual. I have to know where to locate a bunch of different information. All that leads up to an actual desk check that if I don't pass, disqualifies me as a dispatcher for my company. If I fail a recheck, I lose my job. I'd like to know why you feel that a child should not be tested to find out if he or she has the set skills to move on to the next level whether that test is standardized at the federal or state level. Why not get the kids started off on the right track instead of treating them as though they are some sort of fragile leaded glass? If they know from the start that they will be tested and their are consequences to failing that test, perhaps they will be better off in later years.


BTW, the pilots have a similar testing scenario and captains have to go through it twice a year. You say they (the kids) are just learning to pass a test. Does that mean you think the pilots have done the same? Learned just enough to get by the test? That they only know enough to keep up when things are going well? I would beg to differ. All of the dispatchers I work with are professionals that take the desk check seriously not because it means they could lose their job, but because they could put lives in peril. All the pilots I know take their checks seriously for the same reasons. The NEA doesn't want teachers to have to demonstrate they can actually teach by having students tested on a level of skills they should have obtained via the teacher. Why is that? What are they afraid of? All the damage they can do is not as immediate, what are the long term effects of teachers not teaching basic survival skill sets to their students? How do you know what the students know if you don't have a standardized test to see?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 110):
That does not mean they're learning any better. It means they're learning to get through BUREAUCRACY.

Again, in order to move on you have to demonstrate you have mastered what is expected of you at the level you are at. What possible problem could you have with that? Why is a test with standards set by the federal government any less demanding than one set by the state? Whats more, why should it?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 110):
It's creating a generation of chidlren who are learning how to pass a test, not learning how to become smarter and better students.

If you learn how to pass the test and in order to do that you have to master basic skill sets, what have you learned? Are you smarter? Perhaps rather than complaining teachers would be best served to use the test to teach their students better, faster ways to actually learn the material.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 110):
Are you simply a hypocrite?

No, but as stated above, since the NEA has made such a mess out so many local school systems something like NCLB was necessary to counterbalance their damage. And I haven't even begun to talk about school boards that are a disgrace, like Cleveland's has been for years. My oldest daughters education spanned the few years before NCLB and the years since. I can say without a doubt that her education level, the amount she was learning, went up after NCLB.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 110):
They've been in power 7 months

And their numbers have gone nowhere but down as people realize that they didn't have a single positive idea and don't have any now. The only thing they have done is start one investigation after another. There's been no reform. Earmarks are still there, they just call them a different name. Nothing has changed, heck the democrats can't agree among themselves on how to get things done. Senator Reid is a powerless leader and Speaker Pelosi appears to be more interested in foreign policy, in which she has no business, as well as getting a bigger plane for herself. The President said before the election he would sign an increase in the minimum wage, what other major initiative have the democrats put forth and passed in seven months?

Karl Rove left victorious. The democrats may have power at one end of Pennsylvania Avenue but they are busy proving that they don't know how to handle it and in the process showing just how vindictive and petty they can really be.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:42 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 111):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 110):
"I want to teach my students how to write," he said, "not teach them how to pass a test that says they can write." He quit.

In other words, as I stated above, he wants to be able to experiment, not teach the things a young person needs to survive and get a job.

Huh? He said "I want to teach them how to write."

Out of that you come up with that crap? Jesus.....

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 111):
In order to past the test, what do they have to demonstrate that they have mastered?

They have to master THE TEST, nothing else. I have kids putting up with the crap right now. That's what all the teachers complain about-that this mandate doesn't teach the students any skill except to pass the mandated test.

Jesus.....

As for the rest, it's worthless to continue. You, a conservative, are in FAVOR of a government program that infringes on the right of the states and local communities. Uncle Sam, whom you hate to have in your private life, is now digging down into the very fabric of our lives-education, and they don't know shit about education.

Continue your blindness. Your wilfull, unremitting loyalty to an ideology, has over-ridden any sense of reason in you about the nation. You have put ideology before country, even ahead of the children of this nation. NCLB is leaving thousands and thousands behind, it's a failure, and, thank goodness, it'll probably be gone by mid 2009, repleced by some common sense, not government interference.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:37 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 112):
Out of that you come up with that crap? Jesus.....

How about we stick with the entire quote instead of just the part you'd like to?

"I want to teach my students how to write," he said, "not teach them how to pass a test that says they can write." He quit.

So he wants to teach the kids to write, as he sees fit, not to any standard that can be measured, and when told that he has to conform to a standard he does what? He quits. Now that is dedication!

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 112):
They have to master THE TEST, nothing else.

Once again, to master the test, what do they have to learn. Think about that. I'm befuddled that you cannot see that in order to pass the test some knowledge of the subject matter they are being tested on has to be learned and retained.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 112):
You, a conservative, are in FAVOR of a government program that infringes on the right of the states and local communities. Uncle Sam, whom you hate to have in your private life, is now digging down into the very fabric of our lives-education, and they don't know shit about education.

As I said, I would rather not see the government involved in education but with the way the NEA has warped the public education system in this country it is a necessary evil that the federal government step in and correct the situation same as they did in the south in the late 50's and early 60's. You would hope that the states would pick up the ball and run with it but that is not necessarily the case because the teachers union is so strong and entrenched at the state and local level.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 112):
Continue your blindness.

Well I see you're blind to the facts from the education department on the success of NCLB. Rest assured that if a democrat wins in '08 the federal education department will dig even deeper into the local school situation.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:05 pm

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 113):
How about we stick with the entire quote instead of just the part you'd like to?

"I want to teach my students how to write," he said, "not teach them how to pass a test that says they can write." He quit.

Uh, I just re-read wha I wrote. It's the same thing, RJ. What's yoru point?

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 113):
So he wants to teach the kids to write, as he sees fit, not to any standard that can be measured, and when told that he has to conform to a standard he does what? He quits. Now that is dedication!

Huh? He's teaching in the way he was educated to do so. You seem to have a problem with that, which I don't understand. I really don't. And he had enough integrity to quit, instead of conforming to some beaucrat's idea of what education should be. We need more people with such honesty, not less.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 113):
As I said, I would rather not see the government involved in education but with the way the NEA has warped the public education system in this country it is a necessary evil that the federal government step in

This isn't about education, is it? It's about your goddamned hatred of the NEA. That's what ALL OF THIS is about? About a liberal group. Your blinding hatred of anything liberal, isn't it?

We're far worse off now with this bullshit NCLB nonsense. It will be gone soon enough, and you can cry into your conservative river then.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 113):
Well I see you're blind to the facts from the education department on the success of NCLB.

The Education Department Bush wanted to destroy? Run by a crony?

Pardon me if I wait for a more unbiased group to get my information from, thank you.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Sun Aug 19, 2007 3:17 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 114):
Uh, I just re-read wha I wrote. It's the same thing, RJ. What's yoru point?

You reposted a response and then picked the part of the quote which suits the moldy baloney you are trying to sell. The entire quote shows where the gentleman is coming from. He wants to be be able to to it his way, without any constraints, without any standards. That's great for college, not good for basics.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 114):
We need more people with such honesty, not less.

So quitting, instead teaching the way that the people who are writing your paycheck tell you to is honest and shows integrity? My, we are rewriting the entire dictionary tonite aren't we?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 114):
Your blinding hatred of anything liberal, isn't it?

You don't have to be blind or have any hate to look back a few years and see how badly the NEA screwed up the public school system with their experimentation. The proof is all around when you.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 114):
Pardon me if I wait for a more unbiased group to get my information from, thank you.

Falcon, I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but the test scores don't lie. They are unbiased. More children are learning more and the difference in the rate of learning between the races is narrowing every year. The department of education isn't making the numbers up, they are reporting what they are getting from the states. Now who has blind hatred and refuses to see?
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
Falcon84
Posts: 13775
Joined: Fri Sep 10, 2004 11:52 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:27 am

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 115):
You reposted a response and then picked the part of the quote which suits the moldy baloney you are trying to sell.

Uh, I picked out HIS QUOTE within the sentence, which was about that teacher. I didn't edit it; I didn't leave off anything he said. But Ok, if it makes you feel better.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 115):
So quitting, instead teaching the way that the people who are writing your paycheck tell you to is honest and shows integrity? My, we are rewriting the entire dictionary tonite aren't we?

See, there's where you miss the boat. The people who are writing his paycheck aren't demanding he teach this way-THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS. That's the problem. A majority of teachers and administratiors think what they're being told to do is bullshit. And, in reality, it IS bullshit. So this man had the honesty to say "I'm not going to be a part of this lie, this charade. If I'm not allowed to EDUCATE children, then I want no part of this." I admire his honesty for that.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 115):
Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 114):
Your blinding hatred of anything liberal, isn't it?

You don't have to be blind or have any hate to look back a few years and see how badly the NEA screwed up the public school system with their experimentation. The proof is all around when you.

Thank you for confirming my suspicions. One problem-the situation is getting worse with idiotic mandates from Washington, not better. As conservatives have always said-and they are right-the less intrusion by Washington into state and local matters, the better off we all are.

To blame the NEA for all the school problems is so naive. But, again, it's a mostly liberal institution, and that's what you hate. Thanks, again, for that confirmation.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 115):
Falcon, I hate to be the one to break the news to you, but the test scores don't lie.

Who's giving out the info? George W. Bush's Education Department. It's nice you trust them so implicitly, but I don't. They're a pack of liars from top to bottom.

And yippee, test scores might be improving, but the quality of EDUCATING children isn't getting any better under this system. They learn a TEST, not how to get ahead in the world. That's not improvement.
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RJdxer
Posts: 3523
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 1:14 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 116):
Uh, I picked out HIS QUOTE

You picked out a part of his quote. Same as you have done before in other threads. Typical for someone who cannot defend their position without being selective in the information they collect/present. Same as the two sources you provided. There were no facts on test results, just opinions provided by liberal teachers groups who are opposed to being told how run their classroom. I wish I had the luxury to experiment in how I dispatch airplanes but I follow the rules that my employers and the FAA set down. Evidently the teachers you have presented in those sources have a problem with authority.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 116):
THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS.

And what are the school systems getting from the Feds? Why do you think that school systems say even if your child is sick send them in for the first period and then you can pick them up? Why do you think schools are unwilling to give a child excused time off to take a family trip?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 116):
They're a pack of liars from top to bottom.

Then that pack extends all the way down to the local school systems since they are the ones administering the tests and to the state boards since they are collecting and passing on the results.

BTW, do you think that if a democrat is elected in '08, that all the bureaucrats are going to be replaced? Because what you are saying is that the ordinary government employee who collates the information coming in from the states are liars as well. That's a lot of liars.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 116):
They learn a TEST, not how to get ahead in the world.

In order to take and pass that test what do they have to have? You have yet to answer that simple question. How do you get ahead in the world if you don't have a command of the basics?

Now you can continue to present all the emotional rebuttals to NCLB that you wish too. The simple fact remains that when it comes to the basics that students need to learn to survive in the world, the test scores do not lie, learning those skills is up. The learning difference between racial groups is closing, and the test scores do not lie about that.

It's the same with Karl Rove. The democrats can only mount an emotional response to him. Even though they won both houses of Congress last fall, they are unable to capitalize on that victory and in certain respects are actually hurting their cause by their continued vindictiveness that produces nothing in the way of positive results.

You can continue to cry about how the students are just learning to test but until you can come up with a logical answer as to how they pass a test without the learning the information needed to pass it your answer makes no sense. I'm done here.
Warm winds blowing, heating blue skies, and a road that goes forever. I'm going to Texas!
 
frequentflyer
Posts: 708
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 3:22 am

RE: Karl Rove To Resign In August.

Tue Aug 21, 2007 1:55 am

Wanna know more about Rove?


http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...ves-account-of-cia-leak/#more-1496

[Edited 2007-08-20 18:58:17]
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