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nighthawk
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Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:33 pm

Quote:

Scotland's SNP government has set out its plans for a referendum on independence, despite opposition from the other main political parties.

Launching a "national conversation", First Minister Alex Salmond said no change was no longer an option.

The SNP leader said the white paper set out the full range of options which would be debated.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6944934.stm

Unfortunately the SNP has a minority government, and all the other parties appose the plans. Hopefully a compromise will be reached that will allow us to have a referendum..
 
QANTASforever
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:51 pm

I won't lend my support to your cause just yet, but there's certainly nothing wrong with a referendum. Enjoy!

Qff
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Tue Aug 14, 2007 11:53 pm

Quoting Nighthawk (Thread starter):
Hopefully a compromise will be reached that will allow us to have a referendum..

Why? The SNP hardly have a mandate to launch one. They stood on a ticket of offering a referendum and didn't get close to a majority. Support for independence, always a minority, has fallen in recent months.

But hey, if you want to be deeply stupid up there, go ahead.
 
ohthedrama747
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:30 am

I hope it fails.

IMHO, Scotland is going to be a hell of a lot worse off without the union. I still don't understand how the SNP won.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:36 am

Quoting Ohthedrama747 (Reply 3):
Scotland is going to be a hell of a lot worse off without the union

But isn't the oil off the Scottish coast and therefore Scottish and not English ?
They will upon independence vote in an Emir and join OPEC, trading under the name of "State and Emirate of Scotland" ?
-
 
Doona
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:39 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 4):
"State and Emirate of Scotland" ?

Perhaps the Shetland Islands will become independent as well, and together with Scotland they'll form the United Celtic Emirates? *Zipping up the fly of my bad humor-related flame-retarded suit*

Cheers
Mats
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:59 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 4):
But isn't the oil off the Scottish coast and therefore Scottish and not English ?

Some of it is. It depends where you draw the line. Much of the gas reserves are off England though, and the point about oil is that the revenues are dwarfed by the scale of the subsidy England provides to Scotland, which amounts to something like (from memory) £800 per person per year. As the saying goes, no good deed goes unpunished.

Quoting Doona (Reply 5):
Perhaps the Shetland Islands will become independent as well

Shetlanders don't view themselves as Scots for one thing. If THEY decided to be independent, it would comprehensively bugger up Scotland's oil position, as most of it would go to them. They voted against devolution for one thing.

Essentially, by all rational lights, Scottish independence is downright insane. It's a dick waving contest, more than anything, but fortunately, the majority of Scots see it exactly in those terms and don't want it. The English are so fed up with the whole thing they couldn't give a stuff anymore whether they go or not.
 
cornish
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 4):
But isn't the oil off the Scottish coast and therefore Scottish and not English ?
They will upon independence vote in an Emir and join OPEC, trading under the name of "State and Emirate of Scotland" ?

But look at some of those other countries run by mad leaders with large oil reserves - doesn''t do the general population any good there does it ?  Wink
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:23 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):
t's a dick waving contest, more than anything, but fortunately, the majority of Scots see it exactly in those terms and don't want it

Your right, it is a dick waving contest. And I for one, am sick of having my dick waved by some london polititian. They are only interested in waving their own dicks, and dont spend enough time waving ours.

At least if we were independent, we could wave our own dicks, whenever, and however we like! Big grin

Quoting Cornish (Reply 7):
But look at some of those other countries run by mad leaders with large oil reserves - doesn''t do the general population any good there does it ?

Yea, gotta feel sorry for the poor norweigans, they are really suffering...
 
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scbriml
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:25 am

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 8):
At least if we were independent, we could wave our own dicks, whenever, and however we like!

I suppose all this dick-waving business is a lot easier when you wear a skirt!  wink 
 
cornish
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:36 am

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 8):
Yea, gotta feel sorry for the poor norweigans, they are really suffering...

I was thinking Venezuela, Nigeria, Angola actually. Norway is a First world nation  Wink

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 8):
And I for one, am sick of having my dick waved by some london polititian. They are only interested in waving their own dicks, and dont spend enough time waving ours.

given how many senior cabinet officials have been Scottish MPs in recent years, and how much money gets sent north of the border, how do you think we feel?
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:39 am

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 8):
Your right, it is a dick waving contest. And I for one, am sick of having my dick waved by some london polititian. They are only interested in waving their own dicks, and dont spend enough time waving ours.

At least if we were independent, we could wave our own dicks, whenever, and however we like!

Ah. That'll be why the SNP is committed to signing up for the Euro then. And Scotland will really be able to have a big voice in world and European affairs as well. Marvellous. Well done. Great rationale for the idea.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:40 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 7):
some of those other countries run by mad leaders with large oil reserves - doesn''t do the general population any good there does it ? Wink

most of the leaders of such countries are NOT mad, so why should the Emir of Scotland be mad ? For the rest I have to refer you to the arguments of "Banco" above.
-
 
cornish
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:42 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 11):
Ah. That'll be why the SNP is committed to signing up for the Euro then. And Scotland will really be able to have a big voice in world and European affairs as well.

mmm and you can be sure they won't get a veto either. And given that the EU wants to push through legislation that gives the smaller nations much less power within the EU.....

But if they want Europeans in Brussels to run Scotland rather than Scots in London...  Wink
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:09 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 13):
But if they want Europeans in Brussels to run Scotland rather than Scots in London...

Or Scots in Scotland AND Scots in London, as is the current state.

You know, the more you think about it, the more insane it gets. Not only do they run their own affairs, they run the rest of the bloody country too and stick their hands deep into English pockets and extract as much cash as they can.

And STILL they bloody whinge?  banghead 
 
egmcman
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:47 am

Do our friends north of the boarder want to break up the union or is it Alex Salmond putting on a fringe like performance?

Personally I don't like the idea of having MP's passing laws that won't effect their constituencies.

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
Or Scots in Scotland AND Scots in London, as is the current state.

Actually IIRC Scotland has shrinking population because of employment opportunities.
 
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n229nw
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:21 am

Quoting Doona (Reply 5):
flame-retarded suit

Was that deliberate or a typo? Either way, it was my favorite post on a.net for a while...  biggrin 
 
aloges
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:18 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
And STILL they bloody whinge?

It would appear they are again proving their similarity to Germans: can't stop complaining, don't know how to dress, despise England at football, actually want to be a part of the EU...  mischievous 
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:50 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 17):
It would appear they are again proving their similarity to Germans: can't stop complaining, don't know how to dress, despise England at football, actually want to be a part of the EU... mischievous

-
that gives the idea of an alternative. They could get out of the U.K., join Germany as another Bundesland, be in the E.U., get EU-subsidies, German subsidies, and have both Scottish-Gaelic and Scottish-English be regarded as German dialects.  rotfl   rotfl 
 
aloges
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:01 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 18):
join Germany as another Bundesland

Err... no thanks, we're already spending enough money on the former GDR, or rather the botched job of rebuilding the place. Unless Scotland can really survive on a bottle of whisky, two buckets of oil and three sheep we'd rather them keep their splendid sovereignty!  Wink

But then again, we don't have Helmut Kohl anymore, so this time we might actually be able to rebuild a depopulated empoverished wasteland as opposed to paying billions just to have everything shut down.  duck 
 
TheCol
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:14 pm

I'm sure it will end up like the Quebec referendum.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 3:50 pm

Quoting Aloges (Reply 19):
on a bottle of whisky, two buckets of oil and three sheep

three sheep and two buckets of oil, ok .............. b u t only "a" bottle ?  Confused  Yeah sure
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:03 pm

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 18):
join Germany as another Bundesland, be in the E.U., get EU-subsidies, German subsidies, and have both Scottish-Gaelic and Scottish-English be regarded as German dialects.

Hopeful.....

Quoting Aloges (Reply 19):
Err... no thanks,

Bugger.  grumpy 

Quoting TheCol (Reply 20):
I'm sure it will end up like the Quebec referendum.

That thought has occurred to me as well. It's of interest until the cold, hard reality of it bites. Though the level of support for it in Scotland is way below the supposed level of support there was in Quebec.
 
Doona
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:27 pm

Quoting N229NW (Reply 16):
Was that deliberate or a typo?

Actually, I noticed it as soon as I posted it, but thought that it gave the post a little character, so I didn't edit it... Big grin

Cheers
Mats
 
connies4ever
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:56 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):
Essentially, by all rational lights, Scottish independence is downright insane. It's a dick waving contest, more than anything, but fortunately, the majority of Scots see it exactly in those terms and don't want it. The English are so fed up with the whole thing they couldn't give a stuff anymore whether they go or not.

That's what most of these so-called independence movements are, whether it's Quebec, the Basque area, Scotland, whatever. Another chance for some tin-horn to set up yet another duplicate set of bureaucracy to offer the same services as already offered. But as it will be explained to the many unwashed citizens, these will be 'our' bureaucrats.

There's an old saying about strength in numbers. People should think about that before a divorce.
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 8:09 pm

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 27):
There's an old saying about strength in numbers. People should think about that before a divorce.

You would think that the poor, backward impoverished Scotland, that then did spectacularly well out of the union might influence a few people. England got security on their northern border, Scotland got everything else, and still does.
 
David L
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:01 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 2):
Why? The SNP hardly have a mandate to launch one. They stood on a ticket of offering a referendum and didn't get close to a majority.

 checkmark 

Quoting Banco (Reply 2):
Support for independence, always a minority, has fallen in recent months.

 checkmark  I hardly know anyone who wants independence and those I know who don't want it come from quite a variety of backgrounds.

Quoting Ohthedrama747 (Reply 3):
I still don't understand how the SNP won.

It was an anti-Labour vote by people who wouldn't be caught dead voting Tory or Lib-Dem.

Quoting Banco (Reply 14):
And STILL they bloody whinge?

Only a noisy few  Smile . As in most matters, those who prefer the status quo don't feel obliged to make a fuss about it.

Quoting Egmcman (Reply 15):
Personally I don't like the idea of having MP's passing laws that won't effect their constituencies.

I don't blame you.

Quoting Aloges (Reply 17):
It would appear they are again proving their similarity to Germans: ... actually want to be a part of the EU...

Again, I wouldn't be so sure of that. I reckon about two thirds of the Scots I've ever discussed this with are at best ambivalent about the EU and at worst have major reservations.  Smile
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Wed Aug 15, 2007 11:22 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 29):
I hardly know anyone who wants independence

I agree. Every Scot I know thinks the whole idea is stupid.

Quoting David L (Reply 29):
It was an anti-Labour vote by people who wouldn't be caught dead voting Tory or Lib-Dem

That's exactly it. It'd be interesting to really know how many people genuinely support the SNP. I doubt it's that many. The Tories really do need to get their act together.

Quoting David L (Reply 29):

Only a noisy few . As in most matters, those who prefer the status quo don't feel obliged to make a fuss about it.

Yes, I don't doubt it. Trouble is, and this is where the silent majority need to take note, that this constant banging on about is damaging the relationship with England. When have you ever known a time before where the English were genuinely so fed up with Scotland?
 
David L
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:53 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 27):
When have you ever known a time before where the English were genuinely so fed up with Scotland?

Well, there's the problem. What I experience up here doesn't seem to warrant that but I have to believe it - you and others have said it often enough. It's rather like us having to listen to the BBC during the World Cup and listen to a bunch of presenters and pundits going on about how the World suffers when England don't play well. We all get pretty pissed off by it but only a few see it as being representative of "the English".  Smile

The business about MPs from Scottish constituencies voting on purely English issues is a major flaw of the UK system, not of the Scottish people - "it wisnae us". It's embarrassing to a lot of us - in fact, I suspect to most of us who've given it any thought. If an English Assembly isn't practical then MPs from non-English constituencies should be barred from voting on English issues.

Quoting Banco (Reply 27):
The Tories really do need to get their act together.

Hmm... a bit of a tall order up here at the moment. I suspect what a lot of the defectors from Labour to SNP want is a more socialist Labour Party. And yet... three of the most fervent Tory voters I know, from real "hard" backgrounds, switched from militant socialism a few years ago. It's all very confusing up here.  crazy 
 
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LTU932
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:12 am

What good would independence bring to Scotland and the rest of the UK? Something tells me that if Scotland does become independent, Wales may want to follow suit, and who knows what could happen in Northern Ireland (could they want to re-join the Republic of Ireland or try to obtain their own independence). My feeling about it is that the independence of Scotland can easily backfire on them. IMO they're better off in the current federalistic system, have their own local government and rule over domestic affairs, but still maintain their union with England, Wales, and Northern Ireland and remain part of the UK. The federalistic system can work. The US and Germany have shown that a federalistic system can work if it is applied correctly.

There's lots of nationalism here in play, and as nationalism tends to be more of a misguided use of patriotism for a person or group's agenda, it will most likely do no good for Scotland.
 
David L
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:20 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
and who knows what could happen in Northern Ireland (could they want to re-join the Republic of Ireland or try to obtain their own independence

 no 

Unless the balance of the population changes dramatically, there's no way the majority would vote to join the Republic. That was the whole point of the decades of violence. As for independence, I suspect their economy is weaker than Scotland's, though I haven't really been paying attention in recent years.
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Thu Aug 16, 2007 7:53 am

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
What good would independence bring to Scotland and the rest of the UK? Something tells me that if Scotland does become independent, Wales may want to follow suit, and who knows what could happen in Northern Ireland

You have to be a bit careful here. The implication, unconscious probably, is that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are somehow subjuncts of England - attachments almost. That's not the case at all. The union is one of equals, indeed Scotland and Wales pre-devolution were rather more than equals, given the (deliberate) over-representation of them at Westminster. They aren't English colonies, they are free to choose their own destinies at any time they wish. Now, I'm sure you appreciate that, and weren't suggesting anything different, but it's a temptation echoed by the common view abroad that England and the UK amount to more or less the same thing.

The real problem I was highlighting was that now, because of the various imbalances David L pointed out above, it is the English who want things changed, perhaps more than anyone else.

Personally, I think the union benefits all of us, and any weakening of it would be bad for each and every one of us. Nevertheless, it is undoubtedly true that of all the countries, only England has an immediately viable future as a separate nation. Indeed, it would probably be a hell of a lot richer. That doesn't stop it being advantageous for us to stick together. We're the same people for heaven's sake.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Thu Aug 16, 2007 8:06 am

Quoting David L (Reply 30):
Unless the balance of the population changes dramatically, there's no way the majority would vote to join the Republic. That was the whole point of the decades of violence. As for independence, I suspect their economy is weaker than Scotland's, though I haven't really been paying attention in recent years.

It was just a possibility I mentioned. As remote as it is, it could be a possibility, but you're right. It's better that Northern Ireland stays as it is and doesn't fall into yet another wave of violence because of this. The peace that is ruling there has come at high costs, and it's been almost 10 years since peace finally came, and right now, my impression is that Northern Ireland is doing well right now, regardless of the economy. As they say: if it ain't broken, don't fix it.  Wink

Quoting Banco (Reply 31):
You have to be a bit careful here. The implication, unconscious probably, is that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are somehow subjuncts of England - attachments almost.

I never implied that. And I apologise if people misunderstood my statement because of it.
 
gkirk
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:25 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 6):
The English are so fed up with the whole thing they couldn't give a stuff anymore whether they go or not.

Yet you've decided to reply 8 times to this thread already old bean  Wink

Quoting Aloges (Reply 17):
actually want to be a part of the EU... mischievous

 grumpy 

We shall see what happens if it comes to a referendum...
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Sun Aug 19, 2007 11:33 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 30):
Unless the balance of the population changes dramatically, there's no way the majority would vote to join the Republic

the question for Northern Ireland rather would be whether to join England or Scotland

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 33):
a part of the EU... mischievous

to replace English subsidies, a closer integration into the EU with Schengen and Euro would be urgent
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 12:23 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 27):
Every Scot I know thinks the whole idea is stupid.

You speak to them ? Oh dear...  snooty 

 Smile

Quoting Banco (Reply 31):
The implication, unconscious probably, is that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are somehow subjuncts of England - attachments almost. That's not the case at all.

Hmmmmm, is that strictly historically true ? Wales was annexed in the 14th century, and was never given a choice in the matter. Scotland, although the crowns were united on an equal basis, has been viewed ever since as a vassal state (land clearances anyone ?). Ireland was annexed too, whatever one might call it legally and had to fight for independence. This was never ever a marriage of equals.

Quoting Banco (Reply 31):
They aren't English colonies,

Oh really ? Whatever the various Acts of Union might say, none of them was really given a huge amount of choice (although in Scotland's case, it was voluntary to start with, although they didn't really have an alternative, thanks to England screwing them royally over the Darien scheme)
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 3:33 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 35):
Hmmmmm, is that strictly historically true ? Wales was annexed in the 14th century, and was never given a choice in the matter. Scotland, although the crowns were united on an equal basis, has been viewed ever since as a vassal state (land clearances anyone ?). Ireland was annexed too, whatever one might call it legally and had to fight for independence. This was never ever a marriage of equals.

in the case of Wales, certainly. Ireland was all about an initial Norman land-grab followed by an English cock-up. And we're still living with the consequences. Scotland absolutely was a marriage of equals, in terms of how the union was created. The fact that Scotland was utterly impoverished isn't relevant - they were the ones who did best of all out of it.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 35):
thanks to England screwing them royally over the Darien scheme

The English didn't do that! It was Scottish ineptitude from start to finish, the English didn't need to do anything to them to make it a disaster. Given that Scotland had intrigued with France to try to stuff the English for centuries anyway, the poor-put-upon-Scots routine is somewhat overblown.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 35):
You speak to them ? Oh dear...

You speak to dogs and cats don't you? What's the difference.  snooty 
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 36):
The English didn't do that! It was Scottish ineptitude from start to finish, the English didn't need to do anything to them to make it a disaster. Given that Scotland had intrigued with France to try to stuff the English for centuries anyway, the poor-put-upon-Scots routine is somewhat overblown.

But they did - I'm trying to remember the details, but IIRC England forbade iher merchants and colonies from supplying or trading with Darien, cutting it off from vitally needed supplies as the colony was established. There was a deliberate campaign to ensure failure. No doubt for perfectly legitimate reasons of not wanting the Scots to establish a presence in the Americas (or anywhere else).
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:29 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 37):
But they did - I'm trying to remember the details, but IIRC England forbade iher merchants and colonies from supplying or trading with Darien, cutting it off from vitally needed supplies as the colony was established. There was a deliberate campaign to ensure failure. No doubt for perfectly legitimate reasons of not wanting the Scots to establish a presence in the Americas (or anywhere else).

And why on earth should they have assisted them? This is the same Scotland that was constantly trying to undermine England by allying itself with France. The English government had no compulsion to help the Scots out of a hole, so if Scotland was relying on English goodwill for their colony to succeed, it might not have been the best idea to continually scare the shit out of them by offering France a nice back door to invade England! That's hardly the same as the English actively destroying the Scottish schemes.

Oh, incidentally, the Highland clearances you mentioned earlier were mainly carried out by Scots.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:52 am

Quoting Banco (Reply 38):
And why on earth should they have assisted them?

Er, humanitarianism ? Several hundred people died when the colony failed, and the few ships of survivors that made it back as far as Jamaica were turned away by the English authorities there.

Quoting Banco (Reply 38):
This is the same Scotland that was constantly trying to undermine England by allying itself with France. The English government had no compulsion to help the Scots out of a hole, so if Scotland was relying on English goodwill for their colony to succeed, it might not have been the best idea to continually scare the shit out of them by offering France a nice back door to invade England! That's hardly the same as the English actively destroying the Scottish schemes.

It was nonetheless an active, calculated plan to do everything possible to undermine the scheme, foolhardy and badly planned though the scheme undoubtedly was. William III and Mary II were sovereigns of both countries, were they not ? Scottish "plotting" with France didn't restart until the Elector George became king, which was after the Act of Union, and was about returning the Stuarts to power. Mary II was a Stuart, and there was no Scottish rebellion against William and Mary.

There can be no justification for the callous treatment meted out by England to what could never have amounted to a significant threat to English influence in the Americas, as a sort of revenge for the Auld Alliance which was long in abeyance at the time.
 
pacificjourney
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 7:22 am

Referendums are bullshit, so dependant on the wording of the proposal with whichever side that loses claiming it was "unwinnable" from the start. The very idea of implimenting complex constitutional changes with a simple YES/NO is ridiculous.

Additionally how many referendums do you have ? As many as it takes till the minority finally get the answer they want - see Quebec for this tactic. Once the populace say NO to independence will turds like Salmon finally shut up, no way, it'll be Englands fault no doubt.

If I was a jock these days I'd keep my head down and hope no one noticed what a great deal I was getting within the UK.

PS
That Salmon is one of the biggest politicial weasels there ever was anywhere. He alone will defeat any idea of an independent Scotland as he's basically in it for the ego rush and to see himself on TV as often as possible.
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:04 am

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):
Er, humanitarianism ? Several hundred people died when the colony failed, and the few ships of survivors that made it back as far as Jamaica were turned away by the English authorities there.

You're talking about 300 years ago. Attempts to view it by 21st century standards are pointless and somewhat naiive.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):


It was nonetheless an active, calculated plan to do everything possible to undermine the scheme

That's a rather bold statement. Although a few have attempted to portray it as deliberate, there's no evidence to suggest such a thing. It's viewing it with hindsight and suggesting a causal factor. It is at least equally probable that English withdrawal was down to the scheme being idiotic in the first place.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):
William III and Mary II were sovereigns of both countries, were they not ?

Actually fairly irrelevant. Even under the Stuarts, Scotland and England managed to be at constant loggerheads, and not far away from open confrontation. Effectively under Dutch control (and make no mistake, William's arrival was an invasion) it made no odds at all.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):
Scottish "plotting" with France didn't restart until the Elector George became king, which was after the Act of Union,

Scottish relations with France were a threat to England throughout. Scotland was not much more than a vassal state of France for centuries (something Scots bridle at, but nevertheless it was the case), and the French "support" for Old and Young Pretender didn't appear out of the ether. You can advance at the very least an arguable case for saying that the Act of Union was as near to a genuine Scottish independence day as they've ever had. Certainly their level of influence rocketed far beyond that previously when they became partners of England rather than effective subjects of France.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 39):
There can be no justification for the callous treatment meted out by England to what could never have amounted to a significant threat to English influence in the Americas, as a sort of revenge for the Auld Alliance which was long in abeyance at the time

That's not strategically how it worked. Everything really has to viewed through the prism of French power. Even if England deliberately sabotaged Darien, which is hardly a given, it would have been for the sound strategic reason that Scottish power at any level, would have aided in French hegemony in Europe, an absolute catastrophe for an England that was anything but the most powerful maritime nation in Europe at the time.
 
777236ER
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Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 8:09 am

From a post of mine a while back:

£34 billion was generated in tax in scotland in 2003-04 (Ref: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/12/12113803/38088). The government spent an aggregated amount of £45.3 billion in scotland (Ref: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/12/12113803/38052). This leaves a gap of £11.3 billion. Even if you include every last penny of oil and gas revenue from the north sea (£4.3 billion, Ref: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/12/12113803/38059), there's still a £7 billion gap.

By all means, be independent! That's $7 billion of English money that'll actually spent in England.
 
Tom12
Posts: 1050
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:08 am

Quoting Ohthedrama747 (Reply 3):
, Scotland is going to be a hell of a lot worse off without the union. I still don't understand how the SNP won.

Me neither!

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 42):
£34 billion was generated in tax in scotland in 2003-04

Since then tax has gone up, therefore it is a bit more than that. And besides, it is widely accepted that if we do go independant that tax will go up, the people know that.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 42):
By all means, be independent! That's $7 billion of English money that'll actually spent in England.

Technically not true. You say that like the country's only way of income is Tax and Oil, it isn't. So, with the generation of money you have failed to mention (like tourism etc) and the increase we will see in tax it could well reach the £34 Billion.


I don't see the point in independace anyway, esspecially if it is only so i can 'shake my dick' a particular way.


Tom
 
777236ER
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:29 am

Quoting Tom12 (Reply 43):

Since then tax has gone up, therefore it is a bit more than that. And besides, it is widely accepted that if we do go independant that tax will go up, the people know that.

Which will do what to the Scottish economy?

Quoting Tom12 (Reply 43):

Technically not true. You say that like the country's only way of income is Tax and Oil, it isn't. So, with the generation of money you have failed to mention (like tourism etc) and the increase we will see in tax it could well reach the £34 Billion.

I realise I'm being simplistic about it, but it's still reasonably representative. Scotland spends $45.3 billion of public money, yet raises $34 billion. The SNP for years hailed the oil exports as the reason the apparent subsidisation exists and including them would make Scotland financially independent. If the rest of the UK somehow allowed Scotland to keep all the oil revenue, each working Scot would face a yearly tax rise of £3200 to keep the same level of public funding. Yes, this ignores other tax rises, cost reductions etc, but it's clear the scale that the rest of the Union subsidises Scotland.

I, personally, would like to see a unified Britain remain, but it's not up to me. It's up to Scotland, if you want to devolve into your own country, go ahead. No one else in the UK will stop you.
 
Tom12
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 9:40 am

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 44):
I, personally, would like to see a unified Britain remain

Me too! I like being British (Always wonder what will happen with armed forces if the countries part)

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 44):
Which will do what to the Scottish economy?

Young and ignorant. No idea lol . . .



Just out of curiosity, what would happen to the Armed forces if we were to part, and what about the Monarch, like would the queen still be queen here?

Like, i am going into the Air Force, would i stay with England and Wales or be shipped out to Scotland, or would the forces remain combined?

Tom
 
Banco
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:35 pm

Quoting Tom12 (Reply 45):
Just out of curiosity, what would happen to the Armed forces if we were to part

Good question. It's hard to see what use an independent Scotland would have for them, even harder to see how they would pay for them, and the prospect of splitting up say, the nuclear submarine fleet is hard to comprehend, particularly given the SNP's hostility to it. But if split it down population lines, the cast majority of the armed forces would remain English. Yet Scots make up a disproportionately high element of the armed forces - particularly army, so either they are transferred into the English forces, or the first act of a Scottish government would be to make a hell of a lot of them redundant.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 44):
I realise I'm being simplistic about it, but it's still reasonably representative.

Indeed, because the simplisticness, which the SNP points up, cuts both ways. It's a racing certainty that there would be a mass flight of capital from Scotland in the immediate aftermath of independence (business hates uncertainty), which has led many to question whether a Scottish government would try to invoke export controls (against all treaties by the way) in the immediate wake of going alone.

In the medium or long term, it is indeed possible that Scotland could be another Republic of Ireland, but the Republic did go through a long period of fairly severe poverty by western standards. It's really hard to make any kind of case that Scotland would actually be better off in the foreseeable future as a result.

It doesn't help England either. For all the immediate benefit of getting a big chunk of public revenue back, it's hardly in England's interests for Scotland to go its own way. But the difference is that England would cope pretty well because it's so damn rich compared to the rest of the UK, and because 80% of the population are English.

This is why the whole idea is bonkers. There isn't a single advantage for Scotland to be independent. The chances are they wouldn't even be any more "independent" than they are now. Whatever the SNP try to claim, it's purely and simply based on resentment of England. An independence campaign based on a chip on the shoulder. You'd hope that the vast majority of Scots are rather more mature than to wreck their futures because of a misguided belief that Mel Gibson had a point.

Personally, I too rather like being British. For all the family bickering, Scots are my people as much as the English, but the difference is that although separation would be with regret, England isn't going to go down the toilet. Scotland might.
 
gkirk
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:41 pm

Well, looks like recent polls suggest that about 54% of Scots are against Independence at this time. So even if a referendum is put into place, it looks like it will probably be turned down.
Oh well. Maybe in the future.
Suppose it could be worse...we could be living next to ze Germans  Yeah sure
 
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LTU932
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RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 4:48 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 47):
Suppose it could be worse...we could be living next to ze Germans

What's so bad about living next to us Germans? Do you have a problem with people from Germany?
 
Banco
Posts: 14343
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Scottish Government Outline Independence Plans

Mon Aug 20, 2007 5:22 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 47):
So even if a referendum is put into place, it looks like it will probably be turned down.
Oh well. Maybe in the future.

It would certainly be turned down, that's not even a debate. More than that, it's most likely that those who would claim to favour independence in an opinion poll are a lot less likely to vote for it when it matters. Chances are, in a poll about two thirds would vote against, which in a democracy is a vast amount. So go on, hold your referendum. And if rejected, as expected, would you then shut up about it, or would you keep angling for another vote, and another vote, and another vote, until you got the decision you wanted? Fancy a job in the European Commission?  Wink

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