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British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 9:22 pm
by 7LBAC111
As many of you will now, an 11-year old kid was shot dead in Liverpool a few days ago. For some reason, this story (more than most of the others) has really rocked me to the core. Seeing the grief his parents are going through on TV last night was simply horrifing, What was equally as terrifying is that the suspected killer could be as young as 13.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/6961551.stm

Following this tragic event, and the seemingly endless occurences of gun and knife crime in cities up and down the UK, I'm curious to know of your experiences and thoughts on problem youths where you live. (if even there is a problem?)

In March last year, while walking to a friends houses, I was kicked and beaten by a gang of kids, most no older than 14/15. I reported it here https://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1151912

I'm sure I'm not alone, but apart from being injured, I was so angry. Not 15 years earlier, when I was 14, the very thought of attacking someone else would have been enough to repulse people. Now, we seem to accept it as a way of life.

I don't know what the answer is. This thread is therefore about finding other peoples answer to this problem.

7L

[Edited 2007-08-24 14:25:20]

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 10:26 pm
by jamman
I was beaten up a few times by kids from another school when I was younger, only because I had to catch about 3 buses to get to school and one of them was near by a rival school, but I think thats just a thing you go through as a kid really.

My parents recently had the experience of having a main road blocked by lots of chav style youngsters in a charming place call Little Hulton, the car at the front of the road block was being rocked over by the 'chav'erlers and everyone was petrified, even grown ups running to his aid didn't disperse the kids, the kids just seem to have this attitude of 'you can't touch me'.

As pointed out by Queso banning guns doesn't seem to have any effect on this kind of senseless murder, gang culture in the UK has always been there, I know because I live in Manchester but it strikes me that in the past few years that gun crime is becoming more and more visible to the general public.
Can anything be done? I'd be interested to know what the police would want to do if they had the free reign to fight this kind of crime.

Signed
A concerned citizen.

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:10 pm
by airfoilsguy
The guns seem to be functioning perfectly its the humans that are fucked up. So lets forget about all this bullshit about banning guns and fix the humans.

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:13 pm
by oli80
Quoting 7LBAC111 (Thread starter):
I don't know what the answer is. This thread is therefore about finding other peoples answer to this problem

I don't know the answer either, but I'm fairly sure it is not politically correct and almost definately violates their 'human rights'.

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:36 pm
by wrighbrothers
Well, I'm 15, so I guess I'm unfortunately included in this generalisation of 'youth' today. I'm in the military cadets so I actually do something for my country and community unlike most people my age seem to do nowadays and have respect.

I myself have in-countered people my age, younger and older trying hanging around, I've been threatened, surrounded and been pretty close to being beaten up on more than one occasion.

I remember, just a few weeks back, I was catching the bus to cadets, I was in uniform (my army uniform to be precise, green jumper and all) and the bus was full, an elderly gentleman came on, obviously not able to walk well and on the nearest 'reserved for elderly people' seats were about 5 guys younger than me (about 12 or 13) sitting down, talking extremely loudly in their 'yea blood' voices wearing hoddies etc, they refused to move the elderly gentleman when he asked, so I walked over (I was stood up, not on a seat, I actually gave mine up to an old lady) and told them (in my best Northern Ireland accent hehe) to move, they preceded to give me every slander against the military (go to Iraq and die, shut up soldier boy etc). So I (probably too aggressively) shouted at them to 'move your lazy good for nothing chav asses before I give you a proper military beasting, since you seem to lack discipline and have no respect for the older generation I'm gonna drill it into you' about 3 of them stood up, semi surrounded me and gave it the old 'What you gonna do 'bout it blood' I told them quite plainly I'll physically make one of you move for this gentleman if you don't, followed by some pretty Strong verbal abuse and pushing and shoving I got the idea they weren't moving, so basically lost it told them to get the 'f off the bus before I smack someone' and they started to get the idea I wasn't gonna let this one go so easily, I then proceeded to march them off the bus (I believe it was something like.. ) 'LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT, COME ON WALK LIKE A MAN YOU SLACK GOOD FOR NOTHING....LEFT RIGHT LEFT RIGHT.'
That's just one case, I've been smacked off my bike, verbally assaulted (if there's such a thing) and had much more done to me over the years by people my age and I think one day I just snapped and decided I wasn't going to have anymore of it.

I unlike most people now actually stand up against these yobs, I actually REFUSE to have this country dragged down by their culture of getting 14yr old girls pregnant and running away like a coward, leaving me to pay through my taxes that kids benefits. I got thanks by that old gentleman and that was enough to make me do it again anytime I see these people blatantly being disrespectful. If there's someone more needy of a seat, I give it up, I don't wear hoddies, I speak properly and have respect for my elders. I like 80% of the rest of my generation were raised properly and are just let down by these low lives. I'm sorry, but I really wish more people my age would stand up, I seem to be the only person willing to stand up to these people and if more people did it they'd get off their high blooming horse. It's got to stop..

We've got scared away by these low lives and they've now taken the high ground and are now of the impression that nobody will dare to stop them. A mixture of things in society have lead to this, and I'm not sure how we can end it, but something has to be done, national service is sometimes mentioned and while I sing the armed forces praises, I wouldn't want those kind of people covering my back or being made to live with these people who would more likely steal your gear than help you out. I do military stuff all the time and it does make a man out of you, but I just don't want to be forced to spend two years with these kind of people

Rant over, these people only represent a small minority.
Wrighbrothers

[Edited 2007-08-24 16:45:52]

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:40 pm
by dl021
Quoting 7LBAC111 (Thread starter):
Not 15 years earlier, when I was 14, the very thought of attacking someone else would have been enough to repulse people

OK...let's be serious. The gang problem in the UK has been going on for a long time, and 15 years ago there were plenty of assaults on people just for wearing the wrong clothes in the wrong part of town. Let's not wax nostalgic for times that were'nt as you want to remember.

More banning is not going to cure the issue of murders with firearms. At this point almost no one but criminals has a firearm in the UK.

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:47 pm
by 7LBAC111
Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 4):
I like 80% of the rest of my generation were raised properly and are just let down by these low lives. I'm sorry, but I realy wish more people my age would stand up, I seem to be the only person willing to stand up to these people and if more people did it they'd get off their high blooming horse. It's got to stop..

What a great post Alistair. And fair play to you for taking a stance. Regrettably though, more and more people taking a stance become the victims. (See below).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/6946608.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/merseyside/6947440.stm

Alistair, by all means continue to lead your life for the better. And well done to you lad, for doing so. You're military training will stand you in good stead for future situations, and for the life you choose to lead.

Quoting Wrighbrothers (Reply 4):
Rant over, these people only represent a small minority.

Absolutely. It's not all, but it cannot be denied it is a growing problem.

7L

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2007 11:52 pm
by 7LBAC111
Quoting DL021 (Reply 5):
OK...let's be serious. The gang problem in the UK has been going on for a long time, and 15 years ago there were plenty of assaults on people just for wearing the wrong clothes in the wrong part of town. Let's not wax nostalgic for times that were'nt as you want to remember.

I am serious, but perhaps that was more to do with my parents ensuring I knew right from wrong, and the consequences of forgetting that little lesson. Ironically this was a lesson kids learned for eons until the left wing, politically correct brigade started their human rights war on society. And look where we are now.

Of course these things have always happened. always will (to a degree) I guess. But it's out of control now, and this society needs to act now to stop it. ASBO's are not the answer. PAYING kids to go to school is not the answer. INCREASING drinking ages is not the answer.

So what is?

7L

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:22 am
by oli80
Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 7):
ASBO's are not the answer. PAYING kids to go to school is not the answer. INCREASING drinking ages is not the answer

Bring back caning and Sunday hangings!!  Wink

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:27 am
by Kieron747
One can only hope that these idiotic 'gangs' just keep fighting against eachother until they wipe each other out.

Let's just hope not so many of us normal folk get caught up in their crossfire. *touches wood*

Or maybe not...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/6962146.stm

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 12:45 am
by mainMAN
Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 7):
So what is?

Discipline in schools, an end to our benefit culture (if 500,000 Poles can come here and find gainful employment, why can't British white trash do the same?) and National Service. Get the armed forces to go into estates like Croxteth, raid every scummy house, get all weapons and knives out, and incarcerate everybody found with them. Introduce a curfew/pass system in a State of Emergency, and sort this fucking mess out!

I wandered around freely as a young teen in the 1980s, I wandered around Manchester, got trains to Liverpool, Birmingham and London on my own as a 13 year old and never once was there any threat of violence. There couldn't have been, I wouldn't have been allowed to do it otherwise.

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:12 am
by wrighbrothers
Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 6):
What a great post Alistair. And fair play to you for taking a stance. Regrettably though, more and more people taking a stance become the victims. (See below).

Thanks, I'll not take a stance if it's obviously going to get me hurt or worse, but that story about the man being killed for taking a stance against the litter being thrown at him does, in a way, sicken me, that somebody was cowardly enough to KILL someone for telling them to not throw litter at them, unfortunately, as you say, there;s always that risk and sadly, this is part of what makes them invincible. I mean, people carry knifes with them, guns and other objects which are used in anger and I blame this partly on the parents for not disciplining properly (I sure as heck would never carry a knife for such a reason as to hurt someone, again, like you, being brought up to know carrying a weapon is a big no no), partly on this Politically correct society for wrapping kids in cotton wool and making sure nothing is THEIR fault (it's always someone elses, this is why we now have the government banning well know brands advertising on fatty foods because we couldn't possibly think for ourselves now could we....we're supposedly all just a bunch of sheep who follow the adverts, lets hope the Simpsons doesn't start advertising on crisps packets to vote for the British Nazi P....British Nationalist party  Wink )

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 6):
Alistair, by all means continue to lead your life for the better. And well done to you lad, for doing so. You're military training will stand you in good stead for future situations, and for the life you choose to lead.

Again, thank you, yup, I hope the military training does benefit, it sure has changed me which is why I think it is a very good way to straighten people out, take Bad Lads Army for example.

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 6):
Absolutely. It's not all, but it cannot be denied it is a growing problem.

Oh defiantly, it's increasing in numbers.

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 7):
Of course these things have always happened. always will (to a degree) I guess. But it's out of control now, and this society needs to act now to stop it. ASBO's are not the answer. PAYING kids to go to school is not the answer. INCREASING drinking ages is not the answer.

So what is?

Agreed, that question 'what is' is the new 'Does God exist' type question, there are many answers but none of them can be guaranteed to work. There is no such thing as a perfect society, but it needs to be sorted out. The main problem is that everything we've tried just goes wrong. ASBOs are now seen as the latest 'must have', being paid to go to college is just an easy way to earn some beer money (and there's no guarantee they're going to pass their A-Levels anyway) and even if you increase the drinking age, it just means more people will obtain it illegally, that's how it works for people my age, just find a shop keeper who will sell you it, or get on older looking kid to go buy it for you..
Another problem is, it's now common in all walks of life, the poor right through to the rich, if I can put it like that. I got to private school (yea I know, I'm the poor kid hehe) and I know people who consider fun as getting drunk on a Friday and Saturday night in the middle of a Park, smoking drugs and getting off with girls and yet you ask them what they want to do, and you hear a list of pretty responsible jobs. Now, I try to explain that they real can't drink, smoke drugs and the such while doing the jobs, and the answer ? 'Oh, I can handle it, it's just a social thing' (saying it as if it's somehow acceptable !).

My opinion ? as bad as it will sound, there needs to be something more 'forceful', the problem is, the softly softly approach doesn't work, so either you leave it or you have to crack down on it. The longer you leave a problem, the worse it gets, and the worse it gets, the more drastic action is needed.
Wrighbrothers

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 1:35 am
by wrighbrothers
Quoting MainMAN (Reply 10):
Discipline in schools, an end to our benefit culture (if 500,000 Poles can come here and find gainful employment, why can't British white trash do the same?) and National Service. Get the armed forces to go into estates like Croxteth, raid every scummy house, get all weapons and knives out, and incarcerate everybody found with them. Introduce a curfew/pass system in a State of Emergency, and sort this fucking mess out!

Discipline in schools I'll defiantly go with, even though I go to school, I don't want me to mess up on my GCSE's because the teacher spend half their time sorting out troublesome pupils but can't because there's no real threat.

End Benefit culture, I'd agree to a certain extent, the majority yo need benefits, but it's more a discretion as to whether they deserve them or not.
National service, I personally (being one of the people who would have to do it) wouldn't want it to happen, not because I don't want to be in the army (I'm in the cadets so I like the military lol) but for the simple reason I wouldn't want to be thrown in with a bunch of guys who prefer to mug old ladies and steal stuff then do something useful with their lives. However, if it were to happen, I wouldn't object to doing it.

The final bit about raiding estates, I would disagree with, I remember (well I don't remember because I wasn't born, but I know it wasn't at all popular with the locals) when the British Army imposed the 'Falls Curfew' between 3 July and 5 July 1970. They went round searching for weapons and the such, it just turned into 3 days or rioting and shoot outs between the army and the IRA. I wouldn't be surprised if something like that were to happen in England, the locals would come out and do something similar. It's not a good way of earning support, it's hard and it's not pretty although that is not to say it doesn't work, all these things usually achieve are adding fuel to the fire.

Wrighbrothers

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:12 am
by 7LBAC111
No word of a lie, this evening, not 40minutes ago, on Bolton Road, Salford I witnessed a lad, about 21-24, pissing into the street from a pub doorway while having a cigarette. This was at 7.20pm, I was sat in my car while my flatmate got out Chinese dinner. Kids ran up and down, and this dirty effing bastard stood in the door and pissed out onto the street!!!!!

Slightly off topic, but jesus christ what sort of society are we living in?

7L

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 4:55 am
by Gofly
Punishing kids in the way it is currently done isn't going work. There will be a large majority of those receiving ASBOs and the like that just couldn't care less - that's where the problem lies.

Without any desire to do the right thing, no punishment will make any difference - something in their upbringing, somewhere along the line, has caused some people to have a complete lack of disrespect for anything. Nobody wants to work for anything - maybe we should encourage more hobbies, sport and passions - but would it really make a difference?

Kids needs hopes and dreams, and need to want to work towards them - I meet too many that simply don't care where they're going with their life. There's a culture of disrespect and violence in a lot of secondary schools, kids feel they're untouchable - which in reality, they are - and if you're virtually untouchable, who can blame them for exercising their 'privilege's'?

I'm honestly not sure of a solution; however, setting boundaries that can easily be worked around, handing out punishments that are little more than letters on paper and curfews that can be easily avoided; it isn't going to work.

Maybe I'm living in an ideal world; we'll always have problems, it's inevitable, but we've just had an 11 year old shot while playing football - granted, it's extremely rare, but shockingly worrying all the same.

-Gofly

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:19 am
by Capital146
I dispair at this country more and more frequently. It's not just what appears on the news (though that is shocking enough) but more what I see and experience in everyday life. Britain is going down the pan rapidly, no wonder record numbers (including myself) are seriously looking into emigration.

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 5:56 am
by 7LBAC111
Quoting Gofly (Reply 14):
Kids needs hopes and dreams, and need to want to work towards them

They do yes, and they did when i was a kid too. So what has changed?

I'm not disagreeing with you though.

7L

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:20 am
by Gofly
Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 16):
They do yes, and they did when i was a kid too. So what has changed?

Good point, I guess I was lacking any form of a reason or solution... darn, I knew there was something missing!  Wink

You're probably better placed to answer than I am, I'm only really in a position to comment on more recent years - is there anything substantial that could have caused us to see youth crime as we see it now?

Has parenting really changed, or have social attitudes changed - are we seeing influences for other countries?

-Gofly

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:38 am
by 7LBAC111
Quoting Gofly (Reply 17):
Good point, I guess I was lacking any form of a reason or solution... darn, I knew there was something missing!

No not at all. I don;t know the answer. aNd this thread is intended to get everyone thinking, and see different points of view. Your point was both valid and interesting.

Quoting Gofly (Reply 17):
Has parenting really changed

I think so yes. Without a doubt. Discipline is lacking. I noticed it when I was 12. My cousinsn, who are 17 and 14 now never got smacked, whereas I did. Those kids got away with everything. Their parents form of punishment was 'reasoning'. Like a kid understands reasoning. 10 years later, the reasoning wasnt working, the kids were going off the rails, the discipline returned and those kids although still 'challenging' are respectful, mature and pleasnat to be around.

I noticed that at an early age, so why didn't society at the time?

7L

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 6:55 am
by cxsjr
I have no idea how reliable the report was, but the BBC reported last week that you are now more likely to be the victim of violent crime in the UK than any other country in the world  Sad

You only need to watch programmes like Super Nanny and see some of the ill-disciplined, disrespectful little runts on there to see what's coming soon to a street near you! Generations of screwed up parenting is surely to blame!

The deteriorating state of affairs here in the UK is especially shocking, simply shocking, and sadly I think it's gone too far for us to hope for any quick fix.

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:42 am
by Tom12
Yeah, the Yob/Gang culture here is terrible. In Auchinleck they made front page news in one of the UK's biggest tabloid companies for the communities obsession with Buckfast tonic wine.

When i was younger i was intimidated by the large groups that would stand at shop corners and door ways, often they would call abuse to anyone younger or weaker than them. Not so much of a problem now.

The shops in the local area now play classical music through a loud speaker which usually embarrasses them enough for them to walk away, found this solution hilarious but hey, it worked! The shops in the area also increased the age that youngsters could buy drink at, this helped a lot because most of the areas problems is due to neds and so on getting drunk, roaming the streets and throwing bottles.



As mentioned about the 11 year old, it sickens me to the stomach to see that this has happened to someone of his age. Sickening to think it can happen to anyone but that kid had so much to live for. Also now the effect it has had on his family is shocking. Watching them in a news conference really is heart breaking. I'd hang the scum that shot that little boy.

My thoughts are with his family

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 7:52 am
by gkirk
Bring back the shoot to kill policy for the police. Anyone seen with a gun that doesn't release it straight away...bang.

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:50 am
by Leezyjet
Quoting 7LBAC111 (Thread starter):
I don't know what the answer is. This thread is therefore about finding other peoples answer to this problem.

1. Abolish the Human Rights Act.
2. Bring back discipline in Schools and allow parents to discipline their children again.
3. Abolish targets for the Police and employ more back office staff to process the paperwork to keep officers on the streets.
4. Bring back Borstal.
5. Only allow people to claim benefits for a max of 1 year. That should be enough time to find a job.
6. Get rid of Political Correctness.
7. Get rid of senile old judges who are out of touch with society/reality.
8. Turn disused Military Bases into Prisons.
9. Impose tougher sentances on criminals
10. Introduce Chain Gangs like they have in the US.
11. Introduce "3 strikes" rules for those that commit crime, no matter how small the crime is.
12. Legalise more drugs - this is probably a bit controversial however smoking and drinking (both Class A narcotics - just legal ones) kill more people than drugs, but if more drugs were legalised and sold through official outlets like chemists then this would cut out most of the criminal aspect that goes with them overnight (not just in this country but around the world) and also raise money for the government through taxes on the drugs.
13. Remove tv's/playstations/pool tables etc from prisons and get the prisoners doing something useful with their time. Make them perform a certain amount of work in return for better food. Give them basic bread and water, but if they want nicer food, they have to work for it.

Most of the problems in society are due to a lack of discipline in schools and in homes, and a lack of tough sentances imposed by the courts meaning there is no deterrant for commiting petty crime. Those that do end up in prison say that it is an easy life, roof over their head, 3 meals a day, watching tv, hanging out doing nothing - what kind of deterrant is that ?.

One of the main reasons why I won't join the Police force is because I couldn't cope with knowing some little scumbag was guilty and then a smarmy lawyer gets them off on a technicality so they are free to go back on the streets to commit more crime. It would do my head in !!.

 Smile

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 9:04 am
by Tom12
Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 22):

Well put. Esspecially the benefits only being around for a year. I know several people who have spent the a few years on benefits and aren't looking for work. Its rediculous.

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 11:32 am
by mhodgson
Quoting Leezyjet (Reply 22):

Sounds about right.

After living in the US for 4 months, I am amazed at how few teenagers go about looking for trouble - you just don't see the gangs hanging around everywhere. I'm sure there are some localised areas of trouble, but I have never felt uncomfortable walking around groups of youths outside cinemas or in shopping centers like I have in the UK.

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:38 pm
by gkirk
Quoting Gkirk (Reply 21):
Bring back the shoot to kill policy for the police. Anyone seen with a gun that doesn't release it straight away...bang.

Right...I really should stop posting when drunk  Silly

RE: British Yob/Gang Culture (Your Experiences)

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2007 8:44 pm
by JGPH1A
Quoting Gkirk (Reply 25):
Right...I really should stop posting when drunk

Woohoo - we'd never hear from you again !  biggrin