Quoting Toast (Reply 47): However I count, there seems no way Saddam could have killed nearly as many people as this war has already.

Hmmmmm.....do insurgents count in that toll? If so, you might be right. Otherwise, I doubt it.

Quoting Toast (Reply 47): Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44): just how many yet to be unearthed mass graves will we find? Just out of curiosity, have any been found since the US invaded? However I count, there seems no way Saddam could have killed nearly as many people as this war has already.

Re-count. O wait you cant. Thats like trying to find how many people stalin has slaughtered. Please get your head out of your ass.

Here let me make it easy for you. 1988 he gassed 5000 kurds mostly women and children in Halabjah.

[Edited 2007-09-07 08:36:35]

Quoting Toast (Reply 47): Just out of curiosity, have any been found since the US invaded?

None that I've heard of. For that matter, we shouldn't overlook that the United States initially blamed Iran for the Halabja gas attack despite an SIPRI finding that correctly identified Iraq as the culprit (and from what I know, continued to blame Iran into the 1990s) and that in the aftermath of Gulf War I, the U.S. government stood by as Hussein ruthlessly crushed Shiite and Kurdish uprisings. Nobody in the current administration is in much of a position to be condemning those atrocities in the unlikely event that any such graves are ever found (there are plenty of people in Iraq today who would know about them).

Quoting Skywatch (Reply 50): Hmmmmm.....do insurgents count in that toll? If so, you might be right. Otherwise, I doubt it.

There aren't many reliable figures for how many people Hussein had killed (the Iran-Iraq War certainly took a horrific toll on both sides), but debating over which killed more, Hussein or this war is pretty pointless. Both have yielded extraordinarily horrific tragedies and so far, neither seem to have yielded benefits that outweighed their costs.

[Edited 2007-09-07 08:37:21]

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 52): Just out of curiosity, have any been found since the US invaded?

Yes there have been mass graves that were uncovered.

Probably happens all the time, but the drive by media only seems to be interested in American deaths that tie in with the democratic agenda rather than reporting the atrocities carried out by this pig.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 42): You're terribly quick to stomp on the US troops, but I don't see you showing the same pissy attitude towards the insurgents who are actively targeting innocent lives.

remind me again why the insurgency rose up? wouldn't happen to have anything to do with a man named Paul Bremmer and his sacking of an entire workforce which totalled close to half-a-million people? take away their right to work and provide and this is what you get. Its well known that a fair amount of the insurgency is made up of those who feel let down by US policy and the actions of a few pen pushers.

not stomping on anybody, just pointing out that your warped view of success is indeed just that, warped. How anyone can sit here and say that less bombings is a success when the number of civilians dying is on the way up is beyond me.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 42): Well considering that we... including myself... have consistently put our lives in danger to protect the lives of threatened Iraqi civilians, then yes, it is very much about the innocent Iraqi civilians.

that's your bloody job! if you don't like it then find another...

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 42): When was the last time you saw an insurgent place his helicopter (or vehicle in their case) between the fire fight and wounded civilians, in order to evac them?

when was the last time you were paid to be an accountant? that's your job! then again, when was the last time people did a national survey of the civilian population in Iraq asking them if they wanted this mess bought to them?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44): Hiya Monte . . . .haven't seen you for a bit my friend. . .

all good down here, shit weather, but all good.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44): How well did the same civilian population fare under Saddam?

how well are they doing now? the government is dysfunctional and corrupt, unemployment is at around 70% & rising, the civilian population risk their lives just to venture to the shop to buy items which we take for granted, they risk being murdered in their own homes by religious extremists who routinely go looking to cleanse areas of Kurds or Sunni's or Shiites depending on which group the attackers are from. You going to sit there and tell me with a straight face that the civilians are loving that? we can't forget about inflation, gas used to be 250dhms, now its close to 6000dhms for the average Joe, areas that don't have electricity or running water are a huge concern. No matter what we think of Saddam and its not very much, there is no doubt that he was atleast able to control this kind of violence and for the most part the Iraqi civilians lived a "normal" life.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44): just how many yet to be unearthed mass graves will we find?

never denied that Saddam was a cxnt...I suspect that they'll unearth more graves than they will WMD's...  

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44): Because Saddam and his boys didn't let it out . . . a small bit of research on your part will tell you that. A small bit of research will reveal just what bastards Saddam and his sons were . . . .

well aware of their exploits...simply saying that in some respects life was undoubtedly better for the civilian population under Saddam than it is today, US should be worrying about its own people before it worries about the rest of the world.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44): You can't possibly believe that everything in Iraq was peaches and cream pre-1993 . . . you're smarter than that . . . I hope.

never said it was...it hasn't been creamy since back in the 70's when Saddam took control.

I don't support the war or those who send people to war for their screwed vision of democracy and freedom. But the military personnel certainly don't deserve to die for a war that we've been lied to about since day dot, but as I said, that is their job and we all know what war is good for.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 49): Baffling isn't it.

It is indeed.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 49): The Sauds . . . anyone thinks they are our friends has been hitting the peyote too hard

Sure I wouldn't voluntarily live under any of those regimes, but theocracy is truly shit up with which I will not put.

I lived for 3 years behind the Iron Curtain, and awful as it was, it was not remotely as bad as portrayed by US propaganda, and I suspect Saddam's Commie leanings contributed in no small way to his bad press in America. And the Iraqis I've spoken to seem to agree you were pretty much left alone if you shut up... and weren't a Kurd...

Quoting Skywatch (Reply 50): do insurgents count in that toll?

A life is a life for me, so yes.

Quoting Flanker (Reply 51): Thats like trying to find how many people stalin has slaughtered.

Not being able to determine such a figure with precision is not an excuse for not trying and settling on some random astronomical number.

[Edited 2007-09-07 08:47:55]

Quoting Flanker (Reply 51): Here let me make it easy for you. 1988 he gassed 5000 kurds mostly women and children in Halabjah.

That's a well-known fact.

At least as many more will bite the dust before Dubya gets around to paying a "surprise visit" to his troops this Christmas.

Quoting Flanker (Reply 53): Probably happens all the time, but the drive by media only seems to be interested in American deaths that tie in with the democratic agenda rather than reporting the atrocities carried out by this pig.

Yes. The "Democratic Agenda." Don't kid yourself, any mass graves found would be all over the news (you really think that FOX would overlook such a story?), and frankly, I'd like it if you'd provide some sources to back up your assertions. I've followed developments in Iraq very closely from day one and can't recall hearing anything about mass graves being discovered.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 54): remind me again why the insurgency rose up? wouldn't happen to have anything to do with a man named Paul Bremmer and his sacking of an entire workforce which totalled close to half-a-million people?

what a mistake, thanks Paul  

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 54): that's your bloody job! if you don't like it then find another...

Thankyou, I'm tired of this I'm in the military so respect my authority and sacrifice. Its great that youre serving, but using that defense seems arrogant.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 54): US should be worrying about its own people before it worries about the rest of the world.

Thankyou

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 54): civilian population in Iraq asking them if they wanted this mess bought to them?

Remember, its not about them

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 54): You going to sit there and tell me with a straight face that the civilians are loving that? we can't forget about inflation

Stuff that isnt reported in the Media, the life of the average Iraqi today bad, now its a matter of debate whether its worse btwn now and saddam era, but one thing is for sure, the vast number of people that die everyday in Iraq today because of this war is far more than Saddam ever sent to the graves. Most Iraqis want to go back to the time of Saddam except for the Kurds and the outspoken shiites.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 57): I've followed developments in Iraq very closely from day one and can't recall hearing anything about mass graves being discovered.

Similar to weapons of mass destruction cachets, theyre somewhere, we just dont know where they are...., funny because we knew where they were until the day of the attack on Iraq.

Quoting Flanker (Reply 51): Here let me make it easy for you. 1988 he gassed 5000 kurds mostly women and children in Halabjah.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 52): the United States initially blamed Iran for the Halabja gas attack despite an SIPRI finding that correctly identified Iraq as the culprit

Terrible? Yes. Of concern to the U.S. at the time? No. Your outrage is what I'd expect from any human being, just don't pretend that your government was outraged about it. It was only his crime when they wanted it to be thirteen years later.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 59): Similar to weapons of mass destruction cachets, theyre somewhere, we just dont know where they are...., funny because we knew where they were until the day of the attack on Iraq.

Oh boy...if I only had the time to compile the "we know where they are" quotes from Powell, Rumsfeld, Feith, Rice, Bush, etc. in 2002-2003...

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 54):

All-around rippin' post. Iraqi civilians and American soldiers don't deserve to be paying for the incompetence of political elite hacks like Jerry Bremer. Post-invasion plans in Iraq couldn't have possibly have been botched more if the CPA wanted to try, and while I've been against this war since day one, I will acknowledge that in that short period of time following the fall of the Hussein regime, there was a window for success. CPA blew it. Don't see it anymore. I'll be happy if I'm wrong.

[Edited 2007-09-07 09:18:15]

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 11): Good times.

Haven't we heard this before???

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 49): The Sauds . . . anyone thinks they are our friends has been hitting the peyote too hard. Lose, Lose, Lose all the way around.

I was watching an interview with Dr Rice the other night and she kept on going on about the US and its friends spreading democracy, I just felt like ringing up and asking her what in gods name is going on in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, two nations with corrupt leaderships and very limited democratic ideals that are routinely propped up by countless US administrations. I found this the most hypocritical speech that I've heard in a long time.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 62): Saudi Arabia and Egypt, two nations with corrupt leaderships and very limited democratic ideals that are routinely propped up by countless US administrations. I found this the most hypocritical speech that I've heard in a long time.

not to mention, that Egypt is #2 on the US aid list, ahhh hypocrisy exposed, just love it. Two of US's greatest allies in the middle east are the antithesis of what America is pursuing in Iraq, how nice.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 61): Haven't we heard this before???

To be fair, your suggestion is a bit off. Everything I've read suggests that Sahhaf ("Baghdad Bob?") actually believed that Saddam's soldiers had decimated American forces in Baghdad and was quite surprised when he was taken into custody by U.S. forces. He wasn't knowingly disseminating false information as the U.S. took Baghdad.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 62): very limited democratic ideals

When applied to Saudi Arabia, that's the most outrageous euphemism ever! 

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 62): routinely propped up by countless US administrations

To be fair, France has been doing the same in Africa for decades... Doesn't make it right, though...

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 64): Everything I've read suggests that Sahhaf ("Baghdad Bob?") actually believed that Saddam's soldiers had decimated American forces in Baghdad and was quite surprised when he was taken into custody by U.S. forces.

Everything I've read suggests that UH60 actually believes the Iraqi mess is a stellar success and Saddam's tyranny replaced by anarchy resulting from mismanaged occupation "good times".

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 66): resulting from mismanaged occupation "good times".

its doesnt matter if its good times from soldiers, since youre doing this for the civilians, theyre the ones to decide whether it is indeed the good times, ask an Iraqi, see what he has to say, I have a feeling most Iraqis will laugh in disbelief at that question itself.

Quoting Toast (Reply 41): I'm sorry to hear you've never had the occasion to see or live in such a society. I live in one of those, I can assure you peace and security are taken for granted here.

http://counterterror.typepad.com/the..._blog/2005/08/belgium_shows_n.html

Quoting Toast (Reply 23): I wish you all the best over there, I've talked to a lot of people involved in Iraq and I realize what a nightmare it is to be stationed there. I still remain profoundly skeptical as for the outcome of this adventure.

Quoting Toast (Reply 47): Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 44): just how many yet to be unearthed mass graves will we find? Just out of curiosity, have any been found since the US invaded? However I count, there seems no way Saddam could have killed nearly as many people as this war has already.

http://www.cpa-iraq.org/pressreleases/20040224_mass_graves.html

Estimated 400,000 dead.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6135526.stm

A liberal count from a liberal bastion of the media.

Just keep on smoking that harmless weed, the answers will come to you. That weed sure is a great thing.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2): But Falcon... we ARE kicking ass in Iraq!!

AH ... I'm learning English every day. To kick ass means to be in a dark shit, to increase terrorism, to break human rights, to lose control, to waste oceans of dollars and to have your soldiers killed ? I don't know when I could use it, but I will remember the expression.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 31): Iraq wont be a success until people are able to live in a country free of crazy violence, and live in a society free of fear.

- Well then I guess we can't consider the United States a success either based on that statement.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 40): need look no further than the country that bought more fear and crazy violence to the Iraqi people in 2003.

What about what your own country did in 1938 in China? Does the Rape of Nanking mean anything to you? Or do those 300,000 people who were killed in 6 WEEKS not count to you? If that is your opinion sir, then how dare you sit there and bash MY country when YOUR country is just as guilty of bringing fear and crazy violence to the people of China in 1938.

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 69): AH ... I'm learning English every day. To kick ass means to be in a dark shit, to increase terrorism, to break human rights, to lose control, to waste oceans of dollars and to have your soldiers killed ? I don't know when I could use it, but I will remember the expression.

Please, do not make a bunch of us break out the french jokes. How is France doing after all the car fires and riots? Maybe Sarkozy can change that finally, it seems your own problems are simmering. Do the French really know what "kick ass" means anymore? Since the days of Napolean, the french have tried to find out what "kick ass" means and have failed time and again.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 68): http://www.cpa-iraq.org/pressreleases/20040224_mass_graves.html Estimated 400,000 dead. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6135526.stm A liberal count from a liberal bastion of the media.

OK, let's say we take both figures at face value. Saddam may have killed some 400,000 people, an appalling number. That took him 35 years of relentless oppression.

Now let's take the conservative estimate of 100,000 dead in the first three years of "freedom" and "democracy" (your source is from Nov 06). Even at this rate, Saddam's record will be put to shame pretty soon.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 68): http://counterterror.typepad.com/the..._blog/2005/08/belgium_shows_n.html

And that proves what about security in Belgium? Karl Marx lived in London, and somehow the UK didn't turn out to be a bastion of communism. Belgium is a remarkably safe country. The last terrorist attack here was in 1981 if memory serves right. A synagogue in Antwerp was bombed, 0 victims.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 68): Just keep on smoking that harmless weed, the answers will come to you. That weed sure is a great thing.

I don't smoke weed, or anything else for that matter. Where did that come from?

Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 70): how dare you sit there and bash MY country when YOUR country is just as guilty of bringing fear and crazy violence to the people of China in 1938.

Please. We're talking here and now, not 1938. At least Japan didn't claim it was liberating China and bringing it democracy. You might as well bash Tunisia for the Carthaginian invasion of the Italian Peninsula.

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter): Can't our President just talk lke someone intelligent, and not a cowboy? He's already in deep shit over Iraq, then he talks like this? Another embarrassment.

Here we go again. Weren't you the one calling him the "village idiot" about 3 years ago? I guess this village idiot beat your preferred "brain child" pretty handedly last time around.

You're a broken record. Even when things are going better (not great, not perfect, not fabulous - just "better") you have to look for something to criticize the President on. It's so sad to see just how obsessed you are with this guy. If you spent 10% of the energy you expend on hatred of this person in more positive pursuits, I think you'd see your life improve markedly.

Quoting Toast (Reply 73): Please. We're talking here and now, not 1938

What difference does it make? Time has no relevance in the scope of history. Are you saying that because it was 60+ years ago that Hitlers invasion of Poland is less important? Does what Ghengis Kahn did in Asia in the 1200's have no relevance today? Or perhaps you should think about that fact that a LIBERATING army of the UNITED STATES saved your country from Naziism. But I guess that doesn't count in your view because it happened in the past....

Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 75): What difference does it make?

The difference is that you can't change history. People are dying like flies in Iraq as we speak. The American people has the power to stop it now. It has chosen not to, for which decision it receives justified criticism.

Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 75): Or perhaps you should think about that fact that a LIBERATING army of the UNITED STATES saved your country from Naziism

You don't have to put it in all caps, I know.

[Edited 2007-09-07 15:06:10]

Quoting Toast (Reply 72): OK, let's say we take both figures at face value. Saddam may have killed some 400,000 people, an appalling number. That took him 35 years of relentless oppression. Now let's take the conservative estimate of 100,000 dead in the first three years of "freedom" and "democracy" (your source is from Nov 06). Even at this rate, Saddam's record will be put to shame pretty soon.

Well, you said;

Quoting Toast (Reply 47): Just out of curiosity, have any been found since the US invaded? However I count, there seems no way Saddam could have killed nearly as many people as this war has already.

Quoting Toast (Reply 72): And that proves what about security in Belgium? Karl Marx lived in London, and somehow the UK didn't turn out to be a bastion of communism. Belgium is a remarkably safe country. The last terrorist attack here was in 1981 if memory serves right. A synagogue in Antwerp was bombed, 0 victims.

You said;

Quoting Toast (Reply 41): I'm sorry to hear you've never had the occasion to see or live in such a society. I live in one of those, I can assure you peace and security are taken for granted here.

Quoting Toast (Reply 72): I don't smoke weed, or anything else for that matter. Where did that come from?

You said, which is my bad, I assumed you smoked weed from your defense of it. Sorry for that.

Quoting AirTranTUS (Reply 154):




Really?

You have nothing against alcohol, although it's a powerful poison.
You have nothing against guns, although they're designed to kill instantly.

But in the land of the free, no-one thinks they should be outright illegal - people should decide for themselves - so you content yourself with limiting their use in some situations to avoid unnecessary accidents.

And that's the way it should be.

But weed? Oh my God, the sky will fall down, and God will send us a plague of locusts if we succomb to the sinful temptation of legalizing a mildly relaxing, efficiently pain-killing, slightly intoxicating substance! People will suddenly turn to irresponsible, violent crackheads, planes will fall out of the sky, morals will be thrown overboard, and the Chinese will invade!

I can't tell you how happy I am to live in a society mature enough not to fall for these knee-jerk reactions and unsubstantiated claims. We can drink at 16, smoke whatever the hell we want, marry people of the same gender if that's what we desire.

I'm looking out of the window, and I somehow can't see zombies in the street, gays recruiting children to join their orgies, or cars full of smoke crashing in lamp posts.

Whatever happened to the most progressive, pioneering nation on Earth? I'm sorry to see the States revert to mindless Puritanism while the world keeps moving on.

Quoting Toast (Reply 76): The difference is that you can't change history

You are correct, you can't change history, but you can learn from it. What have we learned from the past if we let radical leaders like Saddam Hussein or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad keep the cycle of killing going? It seems most of the world convinetly forgets what Hitler did to the Jews.

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 69): I will remember the expression.

When the French "kick ass" again militarily, im me immediately please.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 24): never mind that the man he made the 'kicking ass' comment to found his speech, well, tiring to say the least.

I guess I was just tired in the IL62 at the Kiev meet.




And at the BHM meet dinner,



And on Fremont St. at the LAS '07 meet,



But you know, I'm sure that an editor somewhere wouldn't take a bad shot and put some ludicrous caption below it. As to the use of Austrian...perhaps it was Australians that misunderstood.

http://www.countryhumor.com/redneck/dictionary.htm

Lord knows there are more than a few words in the English language that you use that we from the United States have to think about before understanding. Crickey?  

Thanks Falcon for starting another Bushbash thread. It's getting to be a regular thing for you. As to the rest, I got what I expected from the usual people.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 77): Well, you said; Quoting Toast (Reply 47): Just out of curiosity, have any been found since the US invaded? However I count, there seems no way Saddam could have killed nearly as many people as this war has already.

Yeah, I didn't know about the mass graves. They for some reason don't make the headlines too often. Maybe because the figures of that report have been officially deflated by Tony Blair himself (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/iraq/story/0,12956,1263901,00.html).

Whatever the true figures may be, the Iraqi people have been fucked front, back and sidewards by everyone for decades, and the US invasion did nothing to put an end to it, quite the contrary.

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 77): I don't smoke weed, or anything else for that matter. Where did that come from? You said, which is my bad, I assumed you smoked weed from your defense of it. Sorry for that.

No sweat.   I defend weed in the name of freedom of choice, although I don't touch it myself. That's also the reason why I'm against outlawing all guns, even though I hate guns with a passion. That's why I'm for legal abortion even though I find its practice abhorrent. That's why I don't balk at carnivores despite being a vegetarian.

Live and let live.

Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 78): What have we learned from the past if we let radical leaders like Saddam Hussein or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad keep the cycle of killing going?

Nothing, unfortunately. That's why wars are still fought under the lofty pretenses of bringing peace or pleasing God, but only in places where a buck can be made out of them.

BTW, if you are aware of any allegations of genocide against Ahmadinejad, I'd be interested to hear them. So far, he has been thumping his chest a lot, arming himself to the teeth, reverting to religious fundamentalism, and executing prisoners.

Just like Texas.   

So in the expert opinion of the pro-war crowd are we due for this again?



[Edited 2007-09-07 15:43:37]

Quoting Toast (Reply 81): Just like Texas.

That's right. Once they are fairly tried, convicted, and sentenced.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 83): Once they are fairly tried

That's a whole other thread, meriting its own flamefest.

  

Quoting YOWza (Reply 82): So in the expert opinion of the pro-war crowd are we due for this again?

What ? Major combat operations were completed by the U.S.S. Abraham Lincoln and all the other U.S. combat forces. The mission assigned to the Lincoln and other U.S. Forces was completed. A insurgency arose which is now ongoing, something totally different than the mission given U.S. Forces. You anti-war types assumed things which were never said. I wish I could have done a trap like President Bush. Those Navy pilots have the hardest landings to accomplish of any pilots, night, bad weather. That is one beautiful banner though. 

Too many people dying to be calling it ass kicking.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 28): The key question. I have no doubts as to how much "ass" is being "kicked" in Iraq, but I'm unconvinced that life for regular Iraqis is getting significantly better as a result of the "surge." The infrastructure is still decimated, there's a shortage of doctors and other social services, there's still a growing diaspora in Jordan and Syria, and there's still no reason to believe this isn't about oil and military bases.

      For a detailed and fairly current appraisal see
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6982364.stm
Note particularly fuel cost, fuel availability and electricity supply. Water could well be as bad as electricity supply.

Quoting Gunsontheroof (Reply 28): And while I agree that Bush could probably stand to restrain his language (considering the number of times it has come back to bite him in the ass), I'm not sure this thread is going anywhere productive.

That is the main point that should be made. Whether or not the US is being successful in Iraq at present, to describe any progress as "kicking ass" might go down well in the US, but for large parts of the rest of the world suggests an approach that is likely to be counter-productive. The US might not like it, but the world watches all that is done in Iraq - as best it can.

To begin to think that a successful counter insurgency operation can be described as kicking ass rather suggests you have lost the war before you even start. Carry the big stick, but speak softly used to be the rule. No longer it seems.

It is apparently a little known fact that few inhabitants of the Middle East like having their asses kicked, whatever that happens to mean.

Bush is supposed to be representing his country to the rest of the world, not just fighting a private political battle inside the US. He does the US a considerable dis-service by using this sort of language.

And on the subject of language, Australians are quite good at telling the difference between Austria and Australia. That following on his thinking he was at OPEC and preceding such a mangled version Jemaah Islamiyah that I cannot attempt a version and all over it added up to a very poor look.

I would certainly have been embarrassed had Howard made such a mess of a speech when overseas, not to mention furious with him. In fact Howard would simply not survive our press criticism if he did that. Whatever I might think of JWH, he does not represent our country overseas in such a fashion.

That is ignoring that Bush has intruded at least twice into a local election campaign. If the polls are anything to go by, that mistake will come back to bite him within about two to three months at the outside.

Quoting Toast (Reply 76): Quoting JetJock22 (Reply 75): Or perhaps you should think about that fact that a LIBERATING army of the UNITED STATES saved your country from Naziism You don't have to put it in all caps, I know.

Montgomery just turned in his grave! Joe Vandaleur too. Check your history JJ.  

Quoting Baroque (Reply 87): Montgomery just turned in his grave! Joe Vandaleur too. Check your history JJ.

Not to disparage all the brave British and Commonwealth troops who gave their lives in WWII, but did he turn in his grave before or after the Shermans(250-300 of them), Grants and Stuart tanks arrived for El Alamein ? Check your history. The United States did not win WW2 alone, neither did U.K. The Soviets did most of the dying, but they too received alot of help from the U.S. and U.K., without which they may not have survived.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 82): So in the expert opinion of the pro-war crowd are we due for this again?

Absolutely not. But why is it that the "anti-war" crowd can't admit that any amount of progress is being made? Hyperbole from the right doesn't justify the hyperbole from the left.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 87): And on the subject of language, Australians are quite good at telling the difference between Austria and Australia. That following on his thinking he was at OPEC and preceding such a mangled version Jemaah Islamiyah that I cannot attempt a version and all over it added up to a very poor look.

He misspoke. Jesus H. Christ, get over it. You don't see Americans up in arms that Australian security fell asleep at the wheel and let a bunch of comedians breach two levels of barricades before being caught. Talk about embarrassing?

Quoting Toast (Reply 47): Just out of curiosity, have any been found since the US invaded?

I don't know how many, but in one instance, we rolled into a town west of Baqubah, where the insurgents had killed a large number of civilians... because the day before Americans had been in the city to provide medical aid to any who required it. We also left them additional medical supplies.

The insurgents killed any of those who they thought had accepted the aid of America. They also conveniently took all of the medical supplies (because it's ok for them to benefit from American generosity, but it's not ok for the local population. Go figure!!)

But they killed them about two dozen.... just because they needed medical aid.

So remind me, Qantas077, who is the enemy here?

Quoting Toast (Reply 47): And does the fact Iraq was a poor and dictatorial country justify its invasion and turning it into a destroyed, depopulated anarchy?

I know you're new to Anet... but we've had these discussions ad nauseum.

Whether it was right or wrong to go into Iraq, has been discussed to a bloody pulp. And all for a small few, it seems as though the vast majority of people on Anet agree that it was a mistake to invade Iraq. Even me.

The discussion ought to stay roughly focused on the question of whether an improved security picture, will result in better improvements elsewhere.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 54): that's your bloody job! if you don't like it then find another...

I totally understand that, and I am not asking for your praise.... but you have no problem harping on US soldiers, yet when it comes to criticizing the Islamic fanatics who kill innocent people without a second thought..... the silence coming from your corner is deafening.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 58): Thankyou, I'm tired of this I'm in the military so respect my authority and sacrifice. Its great that youre serving, but using that defense seems arrogant.

lol



I don't ask you to respect my authority... do I even have any on here???

But on one hand we have Qantas077... who is probably one of the most negative and pessimistic persons, when it comes to Iraq. And undoubtedly has a very low opinion of US soldiers.... hell, of the US in general! It's clear what his angle is.

And on the other hand at least I've tried to give a balanced assessment. I made it a point to say that the overall picture is far from being a success story. I've been honest, and admitted that there are still plenty of problems that remain unsolved. So when I say that, yeah, the summer surge is doing well, I think it's a fair assessment. And when I say that we're kicking ass - especially when put in context of what we were doing only 7 months ago - I think it's true. But I've tried to be honest about it all, and angle certainly isn't to convince everyone that Iraq is going swell! Because we're far from that.

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 58): on Stuff that isnt reported in the Media, the life of the average Iraqi today bad, now its a matter of debate whether its worse btwn now and saddam era, but one thing is for sure, the vast number of people that die everyday in Iraq today because of this war is far more than Saddam ever sent to the graves. Most Iraqis want to go back to the time of Saddam except for the Kurds and the outspoken shiites.

But let us be clear who is to blame for the vast majority of dead civilians - Islamic fanatics.

If people really cared about saving the lives of innocent Iraqis, they wouldn't be going after the US... they'd be blaming, and putting pressure on, the Islamic nuts.

A lot of people are quick to stomp on us - and sometimes rightfully - for our mistakes. But where is that same outrage at the people who are bastardizing the Islamic religion to use as an excuse to kill scores of innocent lives?

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 66): Everything I've read suggests that UH60 actually believes the Iraqi mess is a stellar success and Saddam's tyranny replaced by anarchy resulting from mismanaged occupation "good times".

Show me exactly where I stated that it is a "stellar success" - hell, show me where I even come close to describing the whole war as even close.

You won't be able to, because you obviously haven't been reading what I was writing. Must be too much to ask from you.  

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 69): AH ... I'm learning English every day. To kick ass means to be in a dark shit, to increase terrorism, to break human rights, to lose control, to waste oceans of dollars and to have your soldiers killed ? I don't know when I could use it, but I will remember the expression.

lol... or you could use it in the sense that we're going out, smashing the insurgents into the ground, and every day they were having a harder time staging their attacks.

So let me say it again... less L410Turbolet be confused again!..... but so far we're only kicking ass in the area of security. That's really the point of the surge, isn't it? To gain better security and stability?

But when it comes to national politics, Iraq still has much to be desired in the form of success. And by NO means, am I suggesting that we're about to win the war.

All I am saying is that the surge producing results and achieving success. I saw it myself.

-UH60

Quoting Pope (Reply 89): Absolutely not. But why is it that the "anti-war" crowd can't admit that any amount of progress is being made? Hyperbole from the right doesn't justify the hyperbole from the left.

Agreed.

I have been against this war from day one. As it turns out the simplistic views and expectations turned out to be wrong. But that's neither here nor there. My concern is that people are overestimating the progress. Some progress may have been made but taking one step forward after being put thirty steps back to me does not seem to be a great achievement.

-There is still no concrete withdrawal structure / road map.
-One of the main billings of the war to was to bring democracy and regime change. Now that this has happened the US government is unhappy with Maliki. So you want to bring democracy as long as the right candidate wins?
- Brits are withdrawing. This is inevitably going to cause another shit storm in the south.

While I understand the value of optimism and bravado as a motivational tools I just don't know if some of these statements were necessary.

YOWza

Quoting Baroque (Reply 87): And on the subject of language, Australians are quite good at telling the difference between Austria and Australia.

Please, I've heard Australians talk and on some words had to think hard to figure out just exactly what it was they said. I live here in Texas and there are some Texans I have a hard time understanding so spare me.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 87): That following on his thinking he was at OPEC and preceding such a mangled version Jemaah Islamiyah that I cannot attempt a version and all over it added up to a very poor look.

Style over substance, it's the liberal way.

Quoting Pope (Reply 89): Absolutely not. But why is it that the "anti-war" crowd can't admit that any amount of progress is being made?

Because then they might have to consider the possiblility that they might be wrong which to them is unthinkable.

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 90): Talk about embarrassing?

Absolutely.

I don't believe I am in another political thread. I don't want to do this....

I am glad UH60 is seeing improvement. What I am about to say in no way lessens or demeans what soldiers are doing there. But, all these years later, the administration is just now starting to figure out more troops is what is needed to "win"? I thought the point of invading Iraq was to unseat a threat to America and freedom. That happened, so why are there so many troops still there and why are there still terror threats being found all over the world? Why is it that, years after the fact, things are just now starting to get done? Why did tens of thousands have to die before the administration decided to change course? Couldn't have all this been avoided if the invasion had started off with this many troops? Hasn't the administration ever thought that foreign military is the reason there are people wanting to kill foreign military? Has anyone in the administration thought that if foreign troops leave, there would be no reason for IEDs and no foreign troops would be killed?

Besides, I am tired of people assuming since I am anti-war, I am anti-troop. They are two completely different things. I have always believed since the first second there was talk of invading Iraq, it was wrong. The reasons the leadership sent troops to invade a sovereign nation were cloudy. But, the troops on the ground are just doing what they are told. They are not the ones who actually decided to invade a sovereign nation. They are not the ones who decided to topple a legitimate, although brutal, government. Suits decided that. Every day I see the flags on the Fremont Bridge at half-mast, I am saddened. It means another Oregonian has been killed because someone in a suit had something to prove and the world is still not secure from terrorist attacks.

Quoting YOWza (Reply 92): I have been against this war from day one. As it turns out the simplistic views and expectations turned out to be wrong. But that's neither here nor there. My concern is that people are overestimating the progress. Some progress may have been made but taking one step forward after being put thirty steps back to me does not seem to be a great achievement.

In contrast, I was for the war from day 1 and am still in favor of the overthrow of Saddam. That being said, I completely admit that the strategy of handling a post-invasion Iraq has been F'd up royally. However, the fact is that we are there and that something has to be done because the option of picking up and leaving just isn't feasible.

Is it right for the President to say "We're kicking ass?" I don't know. Personally, I feel that it's a bit crude for the POTUS to speak in those terms. However, I do recognize that he also has the role of "cheerleader in chief" and by using precisely that language he got the phrase on the front page of many newspapers around the world.

But in any case, to make such a big deal over what is an inconsequential statement is simply absurd.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 94): Besides, I am tired of people assuming since I am anti-war, I am anti-troop. They are two completely different things.

Seb, I have never thought you were anti-troops. You've always been respectful and there is nothing wrong with you being against the war.

Like I said earlier, I think there are very few people here on Anet who believe invading Iraq was a good idea. Where a lot of us still differ is the question of "What now?"

Some people believe it's a lost cause, and we ought to leave Iraq, yesterday! Hell, back in April, I was one of those people. I was very demoralized my what little progress I saw during my tour. But now that I went back... I dunno... it's still a very shitty situation. But unlike some people, I am not going to shit on good news. I would think that any decent human being would gladly accept good news, and would rather see that, than more bad news!

If we can keep gaining on the insurgents, and continue to have success, securing the country... then the next major step would be to get their national government out of chaos. Can that be done? I dunno, it's going to be really hard. But we said the same thing 7 months ago before the surge started.

-UH60

Quoting Pope (Reply 95): But in any case, to make such a big deal over what is an inconsequential statement is simply absurd.

Gotta keep that propaganda machine wound up Pope. Wouldn't want anyone to get an absurd notion like, Iraq is starting to turn around in their head now would we?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 96): the next major step would be to get their national government out of chaos. Can that be done? I dunno,

Ask the Italians. How many governments have they been through in the past 20 years?

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 96): If we can keep gaining on the insurgents, and continue to have success, securing the country... then the next major step would be to get their national government out of chaos. Can that be done? I dunno, it's going to be really hard. But we said the same thing 7 months ago before the surge started.

as much as I believe youre sincere, August being the most bloody month for Iraqi civilians kind of negates your statements, but nevertheless I see where you are coming from, you believe that it is imperative that this so called surge keep on, and in your opinion this will eventually lead to some sort of stability, hey I'm all for stabilizing Iraq if its possible, but I would hate to see more US soldiers die in vain, or see more destruction brough upon Iraq and its citizens.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 96): If we can keep gaining on the insurgents, and continue to have success, securing the country... then the next major step would be to get their national government out of chaos

Lets hope it works, and as you said earlier you cant really expect the Iraqis to get their act together if there isnt any security/stability, I really hope this surge you are talking about works.

I have been purposely avoiding threads you start Falcon, but I just decided to check this one out and as I was reading your opening post I just realized something....

Quoting Falcon84 (Thread starter): Can't our President just talk lke someone intelligent, and not a cowboy? He's already in deep shit over Iraq, then he talks like this? Another embarrassment.

You have something in strong commonality with Osama Bin Laden. You both hate President Bush.