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7LBAC111
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Tue Sep 11, 2007 9:59 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 99):
The problem is, 7L, that you don't appear to have noticed the words 'overdosing' and 'unnecessary.'

No I haven't. I asked a general question, which is relative to the McCanns' as it's suggested they did occasionally drug their own children AND I was asking that this issue aside, are family members allowed to administer to other family members.

My question was drawn from your suggestion as follows:-


Quoting NAV20 (Reply 99):
Specifically, whatever else happens, their medical careers will be over.

Which doesnt explicitly answer my question which was if a parent CAN or CANNOT administer drugs in this way.

7L
Debate is what you put on de hook when you want to catch de fish.
 
NAV20
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:09 pm

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 100):
Which doesnt explicitly answer my question which was if a parent CAN or CANNOT administer drugs in this way.

Of course they CAN, 7L, but they (like all the rest of us) have a 'duty of care.' If anything goes wrong, and they can be proved to have caused harm due to being careless or reckless, they're liable under the law. That's true 'in spades' for qualified doctors.
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
NAV20
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Tue Sep 11, 2007 10:20 pm

Quoting Cornish (Reply 94):
Quoting Banco (Reply 91):
They came out and said the money will not be used to pay for any defence.

Ah ok - no problem then. I thought that would probably be the case, but hadn't heard anything definitive on it.

See Post 63 above - the Fund is apparently unwilling, up to this point, to let them use the donated money for their defence - but Gerry McCann is bitching like hell about it:-

"The couple are considering bringing lawyers from the UK to assist their Portuguese adviser, though they are frustrated that they will not be allowed to use any of the �800,000 in the Madeleine Fund to pay their legal bills.

"It seems like a disaster that we've got this huge donated fund and now we're not allowed to use it for legal costs because we're under suspicion," he said."
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
rfields5421
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:55 am

Quoting 7LBAC111 (Reply 98):
I was asking the question if family members, who are doctors, are permitted to adminisiter drugs within the guidelines of their profession.

No - there are no legal or professional prohibitions upon prescribing or administering drugs to one's family / relatives. It's done frequently all over the world.

There is a recommendation that doctors use other doctors for the treatment of their family when available, and especially in situations like surgery.

But a mother, who is or is not a doctor, giving their child an over the counter medicine is no unusual or prohibited.
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cornish
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:32 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 102):
See Post 63 above - the Fund is apparently unwilling, up to this point, to let them use the donated money for their defence - but Gerry McCann is bitching like hell about it:-

Is that real the case or its been reported in a skewed way by the media. If it is true that he's not happy that the donations aren't to be used to fight their case then he's not going to paint himself in a very flattering light. Those sort of remarks are likely to turn public sympathy against them. As you said above, people donated money to supprt the hunt for Madeline, not to fight a court case as suspects.
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7LBAC111
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:43 am

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 103):
No - there are no legal or professional prohibitions upon prescribing or administering drugs to one's family / relatives. It's done frequently all over the world.

There is a recommendation that doctors use other doctors for the treatment of their family when available, and especially in situations like surgery.

Thank you for answering my question!
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moo
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:08 am

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 103):

No - there are no legal or professional prohibitions upon prescribing or administering drugs to one's family / relatives. It's done frequently all over the world.

I'm pretty sure its against several American medical board terms of license, its definitely against the Australian Medical Boards guidelines and its also definitely against the British Medical Association ethics guidelines.
 
gkirk
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:13 am

So judging by the replies here....the parents are already guilty?
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rfields5421
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:36 am

Quoting Moo (Reply 106):
Australian Medical Boards guidelines and its also definitely against the British Medical Association ethics guidelines.

Guidelines are not laws and not legally binding. I'm not sure about other countries, but in the US if you've ever attended hearings trying to get a dangerous doctor removed from practicing - you'll quickly learn that there is a lot of distance between ethical standards, guidelines and the actual practice of medicine.

But in the case of this couple - the drug supposedly administered is an over the counter medicine. It might have been a prescription medicine in some countries.

There is no evidence that the mother, or father, wrote a prescription for the drug that I've seen.

So how does a mother giving her child medicine be acceptable behavior for my daughter and grandchildren and prohibited behavior because this mother is a doctor?
Not all who wander are lost.
 
NAV20
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Wed Sep 12, 2007 11:23 am

Quoting Cornish (Reply 104):
Is that real the case or its been reported in a skewed way by the media. If it is true that he's not happy that the donations aren't to be used to fight their case then he's not going to paint himself in a very flattering light.

Verbatim quote from Gerry McCann, Cornish - see the link provided. I agree with you entirely that he is not helping his own case by suggesting (almost 'demanding,' by his tone) that they should have the right to use the donations in that way.

The case is developing rapidly:-

"Madeleine McCann's parents want to use the £1 million fund donated by the public to help pay for their defence.

"The six directors controlling Madeleine's Fund will meet within the next 24 hours to discuss whether to release the money if the McCanns are charged.

"The move could anger many donors who handed over money believing it would be used solely to help find the missing four-year-old.

"If it is decided not to use the cash, the McCanns face financial ruin.

"They are thought to earn around £120,000 a year but have not worked since May."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...ml=/news/2007/09/11/wmaddy1011.xml

The police have passed the papers to a judge who will decide whether to charge one or both the McCanns wityhin ten days. According to 'senior sources' the centrepiece of the evidence is:-

"Yesterday, however, "senior sources" linked to the investigation reportedly told Portuguese journalists that "bodily fluids" - not blood - with an 88% match to Madeleine's profile had been found in the boot of the car. There were also reports about a quantity of Madeleine's hair, described as substantial, also allegedly found in the boot. Neither report has been formally confirmed by the authorities."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/crime/article/0,,2167166,00.html

My predictions are that chrages will be laid; that the Fund will allow the McCanns to use the donations for their defence; and that the McCanns will refuse to return to Portugal and instead fight extradition.

(Edited to add new information)

[Edited 2007-09-12 04:51:59]
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sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:24 pm

This doesnt look too good for the parents:


Fair use from this fine Telegraph article :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...xml=/news/2007/09/12/nmaddy112.xml

"forensic evidence allegedly found in a Renault Scenic hired by the McCanns 25 days after Madeleine's disappearance."

what?

"It was claimed that a large quantity of Madeleine's hair was found under the boot liner, next to the spare wheel, leading police to believe that her body may have been hidden there."

wow.

"Bodily fluids said to have been found in the car showed signs of decomposition, it is alleged, leading police to believe that Madeleine is dead"


So the police say.... the parents were aware the child was dead, hid the child until they had time to move and dispose of the body? Amazing. They must really really be sure of their case against the parents. If theyre lying, then the police are going to do 25 years hard time.

Any thoughts on the new stuff that has come to light?
 
rfields5421
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:38 pm

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 110):
So the police say.... the parents were aware the child was dead, hid the child until they had time to move and dispose of the body? Amazing. They must really really be sure of their case against the parents. If theyre lying, then the police are going to do 25 years hard time.

Where were the police searching during those 25 days when the body was supposedly hidden.

The parents were under near 100% media coverage for that period and long after. Were all the reporters in on hiding the body, moving the body and disposing of the body?

The police 'story' has almost as many holes as the parents story.

Of course we haven't actually heard the police story, or the full parent's story - mostly media speculation.
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NAV20
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Wed Sep 12, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 111):
Of course we haven't actually heard the police story,

Agree - but unfortunately it's normal for police everywhere to have 'holdbacks' - bits of evidence they don't leak or even put to suspects - because of their 'shock value' in subsequent questioning or cross-examination. Some pretty explosive leaks in this 'The Australian' story, though, including:-

"A FORENSIC sample that has a 100 per cent match to Madeleine McCann has been discovered in the car hired by her parents five weeks after she disappeared, it was reported last night. Portuguese detectives are said to believe the findings, reported on Sky News, are evidence that Kate and Gerry McCann had carried the child's body in the car.

"Samples sent to the Birmingham-based Forensic Science Service have been analysed and the results sent to the investigating officers. While the exact nature of the material remains unclear, it is believed to be either blood or biological fluid from Madeleine. A source linked to the investigation said: "It shows that the parents have a lot of explaining to do."


Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 111):
or the full parent's story

Agree again. Except that if this leak is correct, the reason is that the parents have so far REFUSED to tell their story:-

"Algarve district attorney Joao Cunha de Magalhaes e Menezes was handed accounts of the DNA and forensic evidence. The bundle also contained transcripts of the couple's police interviews, said to include some 40 questions they refused to answer.

"The files are also believed to include details from intercepted emails and tapped phone calls."


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...tory/0,25197,22402153-2703,00.html
"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
 
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moo
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:31 pm

Quoting RFields5421 (Reply 108):

Guidelines are not laws and not legally binding. I'm not sure about other countries, but in the US if you've ever attended hearings trying to get a dangerous doctor removed from practicing - you'll quickly learn that there is a lot of distance between ethical standards, guidelines and the actual practice of medicine.

They are, however, 'professional prohibitions upon prescribing or administering drugs to one's family / relatives.'

If you are struck off any of these boards, you cannot practice medicine within their jurisdiction. And administering *any* medication, prescribed or not, for off label use (in this case drowsiness) is against guidelines also.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:19 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 112):
Agree - but unfortunately it's normal for police everywhere to have 'holdbacks' - bits of evidence they don't leak or even put to suspects - because of their 'shock value' in subsequent questioning or cross-examination.

Here we don't have cross examination in the common law style, but often information (which only the real culprit can know) is being held back to weed out nutters who falsely confess to be guilty of a crime (which has happened before).

Jan
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GDB
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:44 am

Question, the McCann's hired that car sometime after the little girl went missing?
So who had it nearer the event, if anyone?
 
Pyrex
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Thu Sep 13, 2007 4:29 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 112):
Agree - but unfortunately it's normal for police everywhere to have 'holdbacks' - bits of evidence they don't leak

Unfortunately why? Not every country decides to conduct their police investigations in the newspapers, some countries actually prefer for some police work to be used, believe it or not.
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sh0rtybr0wn
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:56 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 115):
Question, the McCann's hired that car sometime after the little girl went missing?
So who had it nearer the event, if anyone?

I read that other people actually did rent that car in those weeks after the girl went missing, but those people have all been cleared by police. Its probably something like most of them were not even in Portugal went the girl went missing.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:30 am

Quoting Sh0rtybr0wn (Reply 110):
So the police say.... the parents were aware the child was dead, hid the child until they had time to move and dispose of the body? Amazing. They must really really be sure of their case against the parents. If theyre lying, then the police are going to do 25 years hard time.

If the evidence is as compelling as you're suggesting, the police would have surely arrested and charged them.

Where are they supposed to have hidden the body for 25 days between the disappearance and the renting of the car?
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moo
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:59 pm

And now Sir Richard Branson throws his oar (and his wallet!) into the ring:

Quote:

Tycoon Sir Richard Branson is giving £100,000 to a fund to assist Kate and Gerry McCann with their legal costs.

His spokeswoman said: "He wants to give them a chance to have a fair hearing."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6997429.stm
 
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scbriml
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:11 am

Quoting Moo (Reply 119):
And now Sir Richard Branson throws his oar (and his wallet!) into the ring:

If you believe the McCanns are innocent, then they would need some serious financial muscle to help them. They are not in an enviable position.
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scbriml
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:16 am

Some interesting information in today's Sunday Times about one of the two detectives in charge of the investigation.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article2461258.ece

Quote:
On top of this, Amaral is facing criminal charges for an alleged cover-up in a previous case of a disappearance of a nine-year-old girl called Joana on the same stretch of coast three years ago. No body was found and Joana's mother Leonor Cipriano was convicted of murder after what she claimed was a forced confession obtained by torture.

One person unsurprised by the direction the McCann case has taken is Cipriano’s lawyer, Joao Grade. Photographs of Cipriano after questioning show her with two black eyes and heavy bruising - the police say she tried to commit suicide; she says she was tortured.
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huskyaviation
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:26 am

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 121):
Some interesting information in today's Sunday Times about one of the two detectives in charge of the investigation.

Interesting article. There is little doubt that the Portuguese police have botched this investigation from the beginning.
 
PlymSpotter
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:41 am

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 102):
See Post 63 above - the Fund is apparently unwilling, up to this point, to let them use the donated money for their defence - but Gerry McCann is bitching like hell about it:-

"The couple are considering bringing lawyers from the UK to assist their Portuguese adviser, though they are frustrated that they will not be allowed to use any of the �800,000 in the Madeleine Fund to pay their legal bills.

"It seems like a disaster that we've got this huge donated fund and now we're not allowed to use it for legal costs because we're under suspicion," he said."

Those monies are out of reach anyway, as it would be against the law to use them for the parents defence considering the funds were pledged for the 'Find Madeline appeal, not the 'defend her parents' fund. It would be paramount to the WWF using their donations to shoot tigers.


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NAV20
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RE: Madeline McCann -Mother A Suspect!

Mon Sep 17, 2007 9:09 am

Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 123):
Those monies are out of reach anyway, as it would be against the law to use them for the parents defence

Oddly enough, PlymSpotter, it wouldn't be illegal, since one of the stated objectives of the Fund is "to provide support, including financial assistance, to Madeleine’s family.'

The Fund Board has, however, decided not to do so:-

"The Board has taken advice from Bates Wells & Braithwaite London LLP and Christopher McCall QC. The Board has been advised that payment of Gerry and Kate’s legal defence costs would be legally permissible subject to conditions about repayment in the event of a guilty conviction.

"The directors of the Fund discussed this today. The two family directors, Brian Kennedy and John McCann withdrew from the meeting when the decision was made. Esther Mcvey chaired the meeting.

"The Fund directors realise that there is not only a legal answer and recognise the spirit which underlies the generous donations to Madeleine’s Fund, which it is the directors’ responsibility to steer.

"For this reason the Fund directors have decided not to pay for Gerry and Kate’s legal defence costs."


http://www.findmadeleine.com/fund/

That's obviously a sensible decision because, as you imply, there would definitely be an outcry if the donated funds were used for the couple's legal costs.

However, it does appear that the Fund ( which is legally a not-for-profit company, not a charity) has been giving financial support to the family in other areas.
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