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lobster
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Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:55 am

"US advocacy group Mothers Against Drunk Driving teamed up Tuesday with the American Medical Association and key safety groups in a joint effort to push for the legal drinking age to be kept at 21."



http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20071009...p/lifestyleusyouthalcoholsafetylaw




So I guess that Canada and most of Europe have it wrong, and we should keep it 21.  Yeah sure

More MADD propaganda for you. Maybe we should just go back to the days of prohibition.
 
lowrider
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:01 am

Until someone can demonstrate how lowering the drinking age would be beneficial, I would support keeping it where it is. Its not like we don't have any alcohol related problems in our society currently.
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NIKV69
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:14 am

Well I find it funny how we can become responsible enough to be adults and vote for the people in office yet we can't drink alcohol. It's assinine.
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NWADC9
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:17 am

Why is it bad for, say, a 19-year-old to drink here but ok elsewhere? Do the affects of alcohol suddenly change upon crossing the border? 18-year-olds can smoke their heads off, but can't put out the flames with a little Bud Light?
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PPVRA
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 2

Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:20 am

What I've heard is that the liver isn't completely developed until you hit the age of 24 or so, and during the fight of 18 v. 24 people just agreed on a half way, 21. Not sure if this is true though.

Btw, I think being so strict on alcohol only incentives abuse and misuse.

[Edited 2007-10-09 19:21:51]
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flymia
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:23 am

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 3):
18-year-olds can smoke their heads off, but can't put out the flames with a little Bud Light?

19 yes, I agree the age should be lowered to 19. BUT NOT 18! Yes you can vote at 18 or smoke at 18 etc..
But American culture is just different. We have an alcohol problem in this country and lowering the age will only make matters worse. But I think it is crazy that some one can be drafted and sent to war at 18 and not have a drink. So I say 19 for the drinking age. Why 19 and not 18. There are way to many 18 year olds in high school. So 18 year olds getting alcohol means alot more 14-17 years old drinking too and that will only cause more deaths.
Also as lowrider pointed out it would not be benificial to lower the drinking age. I garuntee that drunk driving deaths will go up and alcohol realted problems will increase also. Maybe not alot but there would be an increase. But if you can go to war at 18 you should be able to drink at 19 since 18 is just asking for major problems.
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flymia
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:25 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
Btw, I think being so strict on alcohol only incentives abuse and misuse.

But really its not that strict. I am under the age of 21 but it is very easy for me to get alcohol as it is for most people my age.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
What I've heard is that the liver isn't completely developed until you hit the age of 24 or so, and during the fight of 18 v. 24 people just agreed on a half way, 21. Not sure if this is true though.

That might be true. What I do know is the brain is not fully developed until age 25 and drinking alcohol does have negative affects of brain development.
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Mir
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:35 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
Btw, I think being so strict on alcohol only incentives abuse and misuse.

And therein lies a great reason for lowering the drinking age. Do we want kids learning to drink responsibly while they're still living at home and are under at least some parental control, or do we want to leave it until they're out on their own with no control whatsoever? I'd pick the former. There is no reason why someone can be responsible enough to put their lives on the line for their country, but not responsible enough to have a drink.

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lobster
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:46 am

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 6):
But really its not that strict. I am under the age of 21 but it is very easy for me to get alcohol as it is for most people my age.

It was when I was that age too. BUT, once your 18, you don't want to risk the chance of having and under age consumption go on your record. I guy is 20, drinks one beer, gets busted, and when he's thirty, just graduated with an MBA and is looking for a job, thats going to negatively affect him. And for what? He should of been able to drink. But instead, the "law" slapped him on the hand, took a couple hundred dollars from him and said wait till your 21. Our drinking laws are ridiculous. It's time for a change.

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 5):
I garuntee that drunk driving deaths will go up and alcohol related problems will increase also.

Possibly. But our DUI/DWI laws are SO lax it's shameful. MADD should be concerned about changing these laws rather than who and how old a person is who drinks. Make the penalties ALOT stiffer and I guarantee that drink driving will decrease. Give people something to be afraid of.

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 5):
Also as lowrider pointed out it would not be benificial to lower the drinking age.

I disagree. You'd be adding millions of new people who now legally can go out and "gasp" consume alcohol. The financial benefits alone would make it worth while.
 
rwsea
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:12 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 1):
Until someone can demonstrate how lowering the drinking age would be beneficial, I would support keeping it where it is. Its not like we don't have any alcohol related problems in our society currently.

1) As mentioned, if you can die for your country, vote people in to make laws, or buy a gun, you should be able to have a few beers.

2) Most high school and college binge drinking results because alcohol is a "forbidden fruit". Same reasons kids try pot and cigarettes. You take away the rebellion, or the "look what I'm getting away with" factor, and alcohol problems diminish.

3) In countries where parents can teach their kids to drink responsibly (NOT the US, given that parents are now being prosecuted for this), there are many fewer problems with alcohol, especially during the college years.

4) If the drinking age were lowered, we as a community would save the resources that we put into policing and prosecuting underage drinking , especially at colleges.

Personally I feel the age should be 16 to purchase/consume alcohol in public, but there should be no drinking age at home. Parents should be able to teach their kids to drink on their own terms. And parents should be able to host drinking parties for their kids in a place where they know their kids will be safe, rather than forcing them to sneak out into the woods in the middle of the night to drink.

On a side note, I still don't understand the archaic drinking laws and alcohol regulations in this country. In the state of Washington for instance, all liquor must be sold by the state only (beer/wine available anywhere). On one hand the state tries to discourage drinking, but on the other it makes so much money on alcohol sales that it won't turn it over the private sector. Time to do away with all these ridiculous laws - alcohol can lead to deadly accidents, but so can cell phones, falling asleep, cold medicine, etc.

Haven't we as a society learned by now that the more we punish something, the more people want to do it?
 
lobster
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:23 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 9):
Haven't we as a society learned by now that the more we punish something, the more people want to do it?

Unfortunately, no. Were still a society that thinks if we legislate it, it will go away.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:37 am

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 1):
Until someone can demonstrate how lowering the drinking age would be beneficial, I would support keeping it where it is. Its not like we don't have any alcohol related problems in our society currently.

OK, then tell me something: what benefits has this drinking age of 21 brought? In Germany, teenagers can drink beer and wine legally with 16 (the age in which we get our national ID card and can also legally smoke) and spirits at 18, and parents can teach their children how to drink responsibly at home. That's how I learned to drink. I drank when I was underage but always under parental supervision (except for one time at school) and even today, I hesitate a bit when it comes to getting wasted, though I've certainly been drunk a couple of times. And guess what: the system has worked very well in Germany. Incidents about underage drinking are very few and rare, as well as car crashes caused by teenagers on a DWI.
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:43 am

So I am legally allowed to put a M-16 in the hands of one my 17yr old privates... expect him to make life and death decisions... but I can't allow him to have a beer?

Hell... I have a young WO1 in my unit, who entered the Army under the High School to Flight School program... he's 19 years old and the Army trusts him to pilot a $10million dollar UH-60 Black Hawk, and fly 13 soldiers into a war zone! But he can't drink.

No one see the absurdity of this situation?

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flymia
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:04 am

Quoting Mir (Reply 7):
And therein lies a great reason for lowering the drinking age. Do we want kids learning to drink responsibly while they're still living at home and are under at least some parental control, or do we want to leave it until they're out on their own with no control whatsoever? I'd

I agree thats why it should be 19 to drink and should be legal at 16 to drink at home under parental supervision. Only beer or wine though.

Quoting Lobster (Reply 8):
Possibly. But our DUI/DWI laws are SO lax it's shameful.

Agree. DUI laws should be much more strict.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 9):
2) Most high school and college binge drinking results because alcohol is a "forbidden fruit". Same reasons kids try pot and cigarettes. You take away the rebellion, or the "look what I'm getting away with" factor, and alcohol problems diminish.

From somebody who just graduated high school and now is a freshman in college that is a very wrong answer which is given alot. When kids drink they dont think much about doing something illegal expect when they are buying or transporting it. Thats it. Why do kids drink and have binge drinking because kids like to get drunk. I dont see the satisfaction of getting drunk and never drink obsessive amounts but many of my friends do, and its no because they are doing something cool and illegal it is because they like to get drunk and have fun.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 9):
Personally I feel the age should be 16 to purchase/consume alcohol in public, but there should be no drinking age at home.

That is just asking for ALOT of problems especially at with kids in high school. No way. The lowest the age can be is 19.
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rwsea
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:20 am

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 13):
From somebody who just graduated high school and now is a freshman in college that is a very wrong answer which is given alot. When kids drink they dont think much about doing something illegal expect when they are buying or transporting it. Thats it. Why do kids drink and have binge drinking because kids like to get drunk. I dont see the satisfaction of getting drunk and never drink obsessive amounts but many of my friends do, and its no because they are doing something cool and illegal it is because they like to get drunk and have fun.

But you have to admit that part of the attraction, at least the first or second time, is that it's "illegal" and they're not supposed to be doing it - that's a fact.

And on a related matter, the driving age should be 18.
 
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:22 am

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 13):
That is just asking for ALOT of problems especially at with kids in high school. No way. The lowest the age can be is 19.

While I don't agree with the 19, at least your proposal sounds reasonable.
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Mir
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:24 am

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 13):
The lowest the age can be is 19.

18, and no higher. It is blatantly ridiculous that people who are legally adults can be deemed responsible enough to vote, sign contracts on their own, serve in the military, and be executed by the state, but yet are not deemed responsible enough to drink alcohol.

And by the way, this excerpt from the article is pretty revealing about Mothers Against Drunk Driving:

MADD was a motivating force in getting the minimum legal drinking age across the United States raised to 21 in 1984, the organization's chief executive, Chuck Hurley, told AFP after the press conference.

He warned that lowering the legal drinking age to 18 -- as a small activist group based in the university town of Middlebury, Vermont, "Choose Responsibility", is pushing for -- would lead to more binge drinking among America's youngsters.


I have to say, when I think of mother's names, Chuck really springs to mind. To paraphrase Lewis Black: "the leader of Mothers Against Drunk Driving is a dude?"  confused 

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ltbewr
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:32 am

After the end of prohibition in the USA in 1933, the drinking age in the USA was set by the individual states. I believe most states including California and New Jersey established the age of 21 while others like New York established it at 18. Generally the 21 was the age where one could vote in elections, sign contracts and many other 'adult' rights, privileges and responsibilities, while some like the marriage age without parental consent, many employment rules and the military draft was (and still is) 18.
Enforcement of those drinking ages, as well as to DWI wasn't done very much for years. In the late 1950's and into the 1960's, a huge number of teens 16-19 became able to afford their own cars, a pattern that largely continues today. Some under 21's drove to adjacent states (like from New Jersey to New York) to drink at age 18, far too often with the drivers DWI on their return drives causing many deaths and serious injuries. The Vietnam War era draft in the 1960's (and continuing into the 1970's) triggered a Federal Constitutional Amendment to change in the Voting age to 18. All states also lowered their age of adult status in all ways to age 18 including the drinking age by the mid-1970's. Some states, including California, never lowered their drinking age from 21. Even during the time in states where the drinking age was 18 or 19, some bars wouldn't serve those under 21 to protect themselves from phony ID's. By the late 1970's, it was becoming clear that too many under 21's were getting killed or injured in DWI accidents. That prompted the rise of MADD, pressure on President Reagan and the Congress to have a national 21 age to purchase or drink alcohol outside of home which they did.

I think today you could have a lower drinking age, perhaps at 19 although I suspect many states would keep it at 21. A lower age would recognize that at that by 18-19 age one can be getting killed in military service and other adult responsibilities one has at 18. If at 19, it could limit access to High School and 1st year college students. Most states have DWI, possession, consumption and/or using fake ID laws that ban any alcohol consumption by anyone under 21, with most upon conviction suspending the driver's license for at least 1 year or until you turn 21. Driver Licenses or state issued ID's are much more difficult to fake today and have machine readable data that can be checked out like a credit card on a special readers at a bar or club. You would more likely have 'designated drivers' and encouragement to use cabs or otherwise have safe rides home. Some bars/clubs/stores could have the option to not serve anyone under 21. Some high schools are breath checking students for alcohol in schools or at selected school sponsored events to keep out troublemakers. I also think that other social changes have changed the view toward drinking to excess. Still, I doubt we will see any change soon
 
flymia
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:48 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 14):
But you have to admit that part of the attraction, at least the first or second time, is that it's "illegal" and they're not supposed to be doing it - that's a fact.
Yea sure it was a little bit part of the attraction the first time I drank at age 14-15. But for college students or the 16-17 year olds that are drinking alot and being killed in DUI accidents etc its not much of a "illegal" factor since most kids over the age of 16 have drank before.
And on a related matter, the driving age should be 18.

I agree with this somewhat. But it should be 16 with restrictions. Because how does someone who lives in Wyoming or even rural Florida who has a job to help support their family etc who is younger than 18 expect to live and work a normal life without a drivers license?

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 17):
If at 19, it could limit access to High School and 1st year college students.

Exactly. Anyone who thinks it should be 18 does not have kids in high school or are just not thinking. 18 is would be a crazy idea.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 17):

As this reply pointed out. If the drinking age was every lowered to 19 hopefully never 18 expect an increase in drunk driving and other alcohol related deaths. It just going to happen its common sense. Make it easier for more people to get it more issues in-voling its use are going to occur. But after time hopefully the culture will change and we would see a decline especially if they allow minors to drink alcohol in their homes under parental supervision. This is something all states should allow.
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N1120A
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:00 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
What I've heard is that the liver isn't completely developed until you hit the age of 24 or so, and during the fight of 18 v. 24 people just agreed on a half way, 21. Not sure if this is true though.

It isn't true

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 5):

19 yes, I agree the age should be lowered to 19. BUT NOT 18! Yes you can vote at 18 or smoke at 18 etc..
But American culture is just different.

If you can die for your country, you should be able to drink

Quoting Lobster (Reply 8):
But our DUI/DWI laws are SO lax it's shameful.

Actually, that isn't true. The laws as written are rather strong, and have gotten much much stronger over the past 2 decades.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
So I am legally allowed to put a M-16 in the hands of one my 17yr old privates... expect him to make life and death decisions... but I can't allow him to have a beer?

Precisely. Then again, isn't the military drinking age 18?

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 18):

Exactly. Anyone who thinks it should be 18 does not have kids in high school or are just not thinking. 18 is would be a crazy idea.

Oh really? Then why isn't it a crazy idea in the rest of the world?
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flymia
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:14 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
If you can die for your country, you should be able to drink

Okay fine but there are also going to be alot of other people dead on US roads too. There is no draft right now, people who are fighting at the age of 18 have chosen to en-list. I say if a draft is ever needed again than go ahead and lower the age to 18 but for now 19 seems like the best and safest idea for lowering the age.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Oh really? Then why isn't it a crazy idea in the rest of the world?

Because as I said before this is America. We have a different culture in the US than other places in the world. I wish it was as easy as saying okay its 18 now so people who are 18 and up dont drink as much and dont give to kids under 18. But it is not that easy. And for the third time. Giving it to kids that are 18 is only going to give 14-17 year olds alot more exposure to alcohol . Alcohol is not a safe substance to use especially at a young age it does prevent things like the liver and brain to develop fully lets not forget that.
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:16 am

Why buy beer when you are underage when you can just smoke weed? It's easier to get, more effective and about the same cost.
 
WestJetForLife
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:25 am

That is the one thing I like about Canada...here in Alberta the legal age for basically everything (drinking, smoking, gambling and such) is 18. If I recall correctly, I think Manitoba and the Northwest Territories also have their legal age at 18. The rest of Canada is 19.

In my opinion, the US legal age of 21 is a little extreme, I agree. I think it should be at least 19, if not 18 like we do up here. It would be a lot easier for the freshly-turned 18 and 19-year-olds to go out and have fun in the U.S., but as it is, we all have to play the ball game with the rules we're issued. They may be changed, they may not. Who knows.

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Mir
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:49 am

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 20):
And for the third time. Giving it to kids that are 18 is only going to give 14-17 year olds alot more exposure to alcohol .

Big deal - they get it already. If parents did their job (which seems to be becoming the trendy thing to resist doing) and paid some attention to what their kids were doing, it wouldn't be much of a problem.

There obviously has to be a limit somewhere. While 21 and 19 are entirely arbitrary, 18 has some grounding as the basis upon when one is legally determined to be a responsible adult.

As for drunk driving, the penalties need to be a lot harsher. If you're over the limit, automatic license revocation for at least five years, and at least a year of jail time plus community service. That would be a pretty effective deterrent.

-Mir
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:11 am

Puritanism rears its ugly head yet again  Yeah sure
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lowrider
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:31 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 11):
then tell me something: what benefits has this drinking age of 21 brought? In Germany, teenagers can drink beer and wine legally with 16 (the age in which we get our national ID card and can also legally smoke) and spirits at 18, and parents can teach their children how to drink responsibly at home. That's how I learned to drink. I drank when I was underage but always under parental supervision (except for one time at school) and even today, I hesitate a bit when it comes to getting wasted, though I've certainly been drunk a couple of times. And guess what: the system has worked very well in Germany. Incidents about underage drinking are very few and rare, as well as car crashes caused by teenagers on a DWI.

If it works for Germany, great. Keep it up. The culture there is different. Making alcohol more easily accessable will not curb these problems in the US. Also, the process one must go through to get a driver's license in Germany is more difficult that the US. I suspect this makes the possesion of the license more dear and one is less likey to risk it.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 9):
?

Nothing you listed could be construed as a benefit. American teenagers have repeatedly demonstrated poor judgement ona nationwide scale when it comes to alcohol. Taking away penalties will not suddenly give them wisdom. While I do understand the dilemma created by being legally an adult, yet unable to drink, I don't think lowering the drinking age is wise. There are other examples of minimum age requirments in the US that are higher than 18, so this is not an isolated or unique provision.
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N1120A
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 20):

Okay fine but there are also going to be alot of other people dead on US roads too.

Why would that be? If anything, since you are legalizing one type of behavior (drinking), you are less likely to see further illegal behavior (driving drunk)

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 20):
There is no draft right now, people who are fighting at the age of 18 have chosen to en-list.

The point is having that choice. One can choose the President. One can choose to enlist in the armed forces. One can enter into contract. One should be able to drink

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 20):
the age to 18 but for now 19 seems like the best and safest idea for lowering the age.

The difference between 18 and 19 is minuscule.

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 20):
We have a different culture in the US than other places in the world.

You are right. We have a culture of banning things. What we should have is a culture of healthy, responsible enjoyment of life.

Quoting WestJetForLife (Reply 22):
That is the one thing I like about Canada...here in Alberta the legal age for basically everything (drinking, smoking, gambling and such) is 18. If I recall correctly, I think Manitoba and the Northwest Territories also have their legal age at 18. The rest of Canada is 19.

Quebec is 18

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 25):
I suspect this makes the possesion of the license more dear and one is less likey to risk it.

Well, I know Germans who have driven drunk and besides that, driving laws are completely different.

Quoting Lowrider (Reply 25):
American teenagers have repeatedly demonstrated poor judgement ona nationwide scale when it comes to alcohol.

And that comes from a combination of 2 factors. Over regulation and poor parenting. It has nothing to do with the accessibility of alcohol.
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LH423
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:16 pm

I personally think that the driving and drinking ages should be flipped. Kids, whether they're drinking or now, have proven time and time again that many are not ready for the responsibilities of driving at 16. At least not with the dismal driving instruction we give them here in North America. I say, allow kids to start drinking at 16, get it out of the systems and by the time they're 18 drinking will have lost some of it's allure.

I realize that's far too radical of an idea for the US but something needs to be done. The 21 age has proven that a) it doesn't work. Kids drink regardless and often drink to excess when they can get away with it (no parents). Case-in-point. I was settling into having a few drinks with friends when one of my friend's sister calls in hysterics because her friend has vomited everywhere and is now passed out. Her parents were out of town and she had a little party and drink almost a 40 (1.14 L) of vodka. And this is in Ontario where the drinking age is already 19 (the girl was 17). Americans is always preaching about parental responsibility, especially when it comes to things like sex yet we're perfectly happy to let government dictate how our kids should be taught to drink alcohol. I think parents need to recognize that a child who is raised in an environment where alcohol is treated as something to enjoy, like a glass of wine with dinner, and who learns early on what it's like to be tipsy is far less likely to go out and binge drink every chance he gets. And, frankly, binge drinking 4 or 5 times a year is far more dangerous and unhealthy to young people than a glass of wine 4 or 5 nights a week.

Unfortunately, it's a catch-22 situation. It's not in the culture of most Americans to teach their kids that drinking in moderation is ok. So what comes first, the lowering of the drinking age or the attempt to change the mentality of a 100 million people that teaching your kids to drink in moderation from the age of 16, 17, or 18 is the best course of action to prevent them from becoming another crash or alcohol poisoning statistic?

I know that if I ever have kids, I will teach them early on that it's ok to have a drink with dinner or to go to a party and have a drink or two as long as they make smart decisions. And, if I ever find out that they've broken the law, I will come down on them so hard their heads will spin. Drive drunk? No car for a year. Drink too much and pass out? Grounded for 90 days. Acceptance and fear is the best method. Let them accept that it's ok to drink so long as they're controlled about it, strike fear in them that they only get one shot. Screw up, no second chances.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:17 pm

Quoting Lobster (Reply 8):
Possibly. But our DUI/DWI laws are SO lax it's shameful. MADD should be concerned about changing these laws rather than who and how old a person is who drinks. Make the penalties ALOT stiffer and I guarantee that drink driving will decrease. Give people something to be afraid of.

Ordinarily I'd agree with you but since I'm in the legal business and I've prosecuted people at times for DUI I can tell you that doubling or treble punishment just would not make a bit of difference.

Hell. Make it a felony. Give people 5 years in prison. They still are going to drink, and drive, and crash cars and get killed.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 12):
No one see the absurdity of this situation?

Absurd it may be, but there it is.

Anyway, rules are rules, and you probably know that better than anyone. Generally we don't get to choose those which we will obey.

I think the way you deal with the ill effects of alcohol are the same way we're beginning to deal with the social cost of tobacco. Make it pay its own way. Stigmatize it.

I don't care because I don't drink.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Toast
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Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:19 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 24):
Puritanism rears its ugly head yet again

Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
N1120A
Posts: 26652
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:21 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 28):
Make it a felony.

Hell, repeat DUI is a felony in most jurisdictions, and that still doesn't stop people

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 28):

I don't care because I don't drink.

I don't drink either, but I still care.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Banco
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:34 pm

How is the law framed in the US (or in most states, anyway)?

Is it that those under 21 (in most cases) can't purchase alcohol until they're 21, or is it that they aren't allowed alcohol at all until they reach that age?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
BHXFAOTIPYYC
Posts: 1442
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:20 pm

It's always been a bit of a mystery to me how, as has been mentioned several times above, you can be sent to die for your country, but you can't have a beer before you go. In a country where laws ensure equality of race, religion, sex, ect, it is odd that a segment of the population is arguably discriminated against merely on age alone.

However, it isn't the case that over here in "sophisticated" Europe that everyone calmly grows up knowing yet respecting alcohol. We have a lot of problems with kids drinking here in Portugal. Not too long ago they did a study that found that most kids by the age of 11 had tried alcohol, and that half of 11 - 15 year olds drink alcohol weekly. And from the BMA (British Medical Assoc.) "In 2000, nearly 14 per cent of 16 to 19 year olds in Great Britain were found to experience dependence on alcohol".
Breakfast in BHX, lunch in FAO, dinner in TIP, baggage in YYC.
 
deltagator
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:35 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
We have a culture of banning things.

As do many other countries/cultures. We aren't the only ones who do these things.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
What we should have is a culture of healthy, responsible enjoyment of life.

No debate there but to single us out as the only ones who do these things is intellectually dishonest.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
What I've heard is that the liver isn't completely developed until you hit the age of 24 or so, and during the fight of 18 v. 24 people just agreed on a half way, 21. Not sure if this is true though.

It isn't true

Now you're an expert on liver function and development? What don't you know? Why is it you haven't been the biggest Jeopardy champion ever?  sarcastic 

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
isn't the military drinking age 18?

No. It has been amended to be the drinking age of the state the base is located in. Unless it is within 50 miles of Mexico, Canada, or a state with a lower drinking age (which wouldn't be the case today) then the base commander can set it to the lower age at his discretion.
"If you can't delight in the misery of others then you don't deserve to be a college football fan."
 
lowrider
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:48 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
And that comes from a combination of 2 factors. Over regulation and poor parenting. It has nothing to do with the accessibility of alcohol.

How is lowering the drinking age going to cure either? It won't. It will only remove the stigma from what will still be poor choices and bad behavior. I am not even convinced that alcohol is even over regulated, only under enforced. If people decide violate the laws, then that tells me we have not weighted the risk/reward equation properly. Further, I would have no problem with punishing parents whose underage children have infractions. Give them a little incentive as well.
Proud OOTSK member
 
flymia
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:51 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
The point is having that choice. One can choose the President. One can choose to enlist in the armed forces. One can enter into contract. One should be able to drink

So lets let 18 years old buy handguns too? Once your 18 you should be able to do anything you want and the only age restriction should be 18?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 26):
Why would that be? If anything, since you are legalizing one type of behavior (drinking), you are less likely to see further illegal behavior (driving drunk)

That is not what will happen. Making it lower will cause an increase in usage.

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 32):
In a country where laws ensure equality of race, religion, sex, ect, it is odd that a segment of the population is arguably discriminated against merely on age alone.

Yes, but the only legal form of discrimination that is allowed in the US is by age.


I say drop it to 19. But lets save some high school kids lives and not take it all the way to 18.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:57 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 35):
So lets let 18 years old buy handguns too?

If they pass the required background checks and comply with all the restrictions (which I believe should be enforced more), then yes.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4726
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:25 pm

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 14):
And on a related matter, the driving age should be 18.

Would never work. Too many high-school kids have jobs that require a car to get to, and we don't have a public transportation system like other countries.

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 18):
Anyone who thinks it should be 18 does not have kids in high school or are just not thinking. 18 is would be a crazy idea.

I have two younger sisters in high school, both of whom have gotten drunk by the age of 15 with alcohol supplied by friends. Maybe you should ask your kid how easy it is to obtain at the current 21 limit.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 19):
Precisely. Then again, isn't the military drinking age 18?

It's all about jurisdiction. Most military base commanders "officially" set policy to conform to the local drinking laws, even though they're not required to. The de facto standard, of course, is that if you're in, you can drink. Just don't cause a ruckus.

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 20):
Giving it to kids that are 18 is only going to give 14-17 year olds alot more exposure to alcohol

And your point?
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
Maverick623
Posts: 4726
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:32 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 31):
How is the law framed in the US (or in most states, anyway)?

Is it that those under 21 (in most cases) can't purchase alcohol until they're 21, or is it that they aren't allowed alcohol at all until they reach that age?

It depends. In all states, you have to be 21 to purchase. Many states allow consumption at 18, most do not.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
N1120A
Posts: 26652
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:33 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 31):
How is the law framed in the US (or in most states, anyway)?

Is it that those under 21 (in most cases) can't purchase alcohol until they're 21, or is it that they aren't allowed alcohol at all until they reach that age?

The law is generally to purchase, and also that it is illegal to give alcohol to someone under 21 unless certain conditions are met. Those conditions are, generally, that parents and other family of the age of majority can give alcohol to the person under 21 at pretty much anytime, and that restaurants can serve alcohol to the person under 21 if it is ordered for them by the older person.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 33):

As do many other countries/cultures. We aren't the only ones who do these things.

No, but we are the developed society that practices the art of "banning sin" more than any other.

Quoting DeltaGator (Reply 33):

Now you're an expert on liver function and development? What don't you know? Why is it you haven't been the biggest Jeopardy champion ever?

Perhaps you needed me to be more clear. Liver function isn't the reason for the laws regarding age.

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 35):

So lets let 18 years old buy handguns too? Once your 18 you should be able to do anything you want and the only age restriction should be 18?

Exactly. 18 is the age of majority, and should be the age of access to all goods and services.

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 35):
Making it lower will cause an increase in usage.

And you have absolutely no evidence of that. In fact, there is much evidence to the contrary. In the US, with the drinking age at 21, over 27% of high school students binge drink. In Italy, where the age is 18 and even that is subject to lax enforcement, binge drinking exists only 2% of the time.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
flymia
Posts: 7131
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 37):
And your point?

My point is more exposure to alcohol for kids 14-17 especially kids that are 16 and 17 who are driving means more drunk driving deaths a year and more overall problems with alcohol in high school

Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
And you have absolutely no evidence of that. In fact, there is much evidence to the contrary. In the US, with the drinking age at 21, over 27% of high school students binge drink. In Italy, where the age is 18 and even that is subject to lax enforcement, binge drinking exists only 2% of the time.

Culture,Culture,Culture,Culture,Culture,Culture,Culture,Culture. There is a big difference in culture in Italy than the US.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 37):
I have two younger sisters in high school, both of whom have gotten drunk by the age of 15 with alcohol supplied by friends. Maybe you should ask your kid how easy it is to obtain at the current 21 limit.

It is easy to obtain as I said in previous post. But making it legal for an 18 year old to obtain alcohol is only going to make it much easier and cause more problems.
Its a simple concept. Keep alcohol out of high schools as much as possible but be fair to people and drop the age to 19. Let kids drink with their parents so they can try to learn and maybe in 50 years American culture can change a little bit and the age can be dropped again.
Honestly I dont see any the age being dropped anytime soon.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
N1120A
Posts: 26652
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:38 pm

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 40):

My point is more exposure to alcohol for kids 14-17 especially kids that are 16 and 17 who are driving means more drunk driving deaths a year and more overall problems with alcohol in high school

How is there more exposure?

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 40):

Culture,Culture,Culture,Culture,Culture,Culture,Culture,Culture. There is a big difference in culture in Italy than the US.

So what. Law and culture are not the same thing, despite the fact that they can influence each other.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
flymia
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:46 pm

Quoting N1120A (Reply 41):
How is there more exposure?

By dropping the age to 18 means alot of high school seniors are legal to buy alcohol which means it will be very easy for all the 14-17 year olds at high school parties to use alcohol. Usage will go up.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:52 pm

Quoting BHXFAOTIPYYC (Reply 32):
Not too long ago they did a study that found that most kids by the age of 11 had tried alcohol, and that half of 11 - 15 year olds drink alcohol weekly.

It depends also on how much and under which circumstances. I have seen a EU survey, where they were simply asking if you are drinking daily, weekly, monthly etc. without clearer distinction.
E.g. when I was a boy of 5-6 in the early 70s, my father was often working in rural Portugal and Spain and took us with him. During meals us children got red wine diluted with water, since there was no other drink for children (except water). The adults drank the wine pure, but I have to say that I have never seen my parents drunk.

In Germany e.g. it is quite common to have a glass of beer with a meal (just like a glass of wine in France, Spain, Italy or Portugal), so you could say a person is drinking daily, but actually he is just having one glass and doesn't even get drunk.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7184
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:26 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 43):
but actually he is just having one glass and doesn't even get drunk.

If that was the way things were in the US, then by all means, bring the drinking age down to 6 years.

But the unfortunate reality is that a lot of people here drink for only the purpose of GETTING DRUNK.

Plus, I've yet to talk to a teenager under 21 that hasn't been drunk before their 21st already.

And yes I do take my libations every weekend, and yes I've been drunk several times, but not to the point where its a daily occurrence or a health problem.

Its a culture problem, not an age problem.
 
planecrazy2
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:28 am

I hope the 18 to drink movement gains momentum, screw MADD. They have become a group of neo-prohibitionists and have deviated from their original mission. We have tried it their way and the reality is that the laws are not working. Much of the "evidence" used by groups like MADD to push their agenda is flawed in some way.

The law deems me an adult, fair enough. With that I expect to have certain rights and privledges granted to me, and not be discriminated against based on my age. This kind of discrimination should be unlawful. Period. If you want to deny adults aged 18-20 the right to drink then you should not make them adults in the first place.

The National Minimum Drinking Age Act (Lautenberg Amendment) should not have been passed in the first place:

"The pending Lautenberg amendment, however, which would coerce States into establishing a 21-year-old drinking age, should be rejected because it would result in Federal encroachment into areas that have been reserved to the States under the Constitution. It is clear that all powers not specifically delegated to the Federal Government by the Constitution are reserved to the States and to the people. Nowhere in the Constitution has the power to regulate the sale and consumption of alcoholic beverages been delegated to the Federal Government. Those who want to expand the power of the Federal Government beyond that granted to it by the Constitution have found various mechanisms for achieving their objective. Almost every Federal tax dollar returned to the States has strings attached; the Lautenberg amendment would tighten the knot. This practice, as embodied by this amendment, is nothing short of blackmail by the Federal Government. It is inconsistent with the Constitution, contrary to sound principles of federalism, and not in the best interest of our country. Therefore, the Lautenberg amendment should be rejected."
United Airlines - Worldwide Service
 
rwsea
Posts: 2515
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RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:41 am

Quoting LH423 (Reply 27):
I know that if I ever have kids, I will teach them early on that it's ok to have a drink with dinner or to go to a party and have a drink or two as long as they make smart decisions.



Quoting N1120A (Reply 39):
Those conditions are, generally, that parents and other family of the age of majority can give alcohol to the person under 21 at pretty much anytime

Unfortunately parents have tried that, and there have been well-publicized cases where these parents were prosecuted. I remember a story from a year or so ago where a husband and wife were thrown into jail for a weekend because they let their 18-year old have a few friends over for the weekend, and they served alcohol. The thinking was that the kids were going to be drinking anyways, and it was safer with a little supervision. Makes a lot of sense if you ask me. This people in this country are so sick sometimes - land of the free .....

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 37):
Would never work. Too many high-school kids have jobs that require a car to get to, and we don't have a public transportation system like other countries.

The number one killer of teens is car accidents. Maybe it's time to change that.
 
flymia
Posts: 7131
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:47 am

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 46):
The number one killer of teens is car accidents. Maybe it's time to change that.

Two major reasons for this. One drunk driving. Two it is way to easy to get a license. Make the test harder and than the people who cant drive might not pass the test.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
N1120A
Posts: 26652
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:40 pm

RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:48 am

Quoting FlyMIA (Reply 42):

By dropping the age to 18 means alot of high school seniors are legal to buy alcohol which means it will be very easy for all the 14-17 year olds at high school parties to use alcohol. Usage will go up.

And I am sure you have lots of scientific studies to show that.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 44):

But the unfortunate reality is that a lot of people here drink for only the purpose of GETTING DRUNK.

A lot of people drink everywhere to do that. Others drink moderately and responsibly.

Quoting FLY2HMO (Reply 44):

Its a culture problem, not an age problem.

I actually agree that it is a culture problem. The problem is this culture of creating taboos, that people then try to break.

Quoting RwSEA (Reply 46):
I remember a story from a year or so ago where a husband and wife were thrown into jail for a weekend because they let their 18-year old have a few friends over for the weekend, and they served alcohol.

Well, what they did was illegal. They can give it to their kids, not their kids' friends.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:44 am

RE: Heavyweights Want US Drinking Age To Be Kept 21

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:47 am

What? And wipe out all the phony ID entrepreneurs?

Every year some moron at ISU gets himself a felony jacket for cobbling together and laminating phony DLs using the university computer network and a Dazey Seal-A-Meal. What happens is that some moron gets caught, rats out Mr. Wisconsin Drivers' License, he gets caught, felony hit.

The funny thing is, they all think they're the first people who ever thought of it.

This is the closest thing to a non issue I've heard of in the last few years. Are you that eager to wreck your livers and smash into bridge abutments?

Eff you all, you drunken bums. Carrie Nation was right. Up the WCTU and the Anti Saloon League.

 Wink  Wink  Wink
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn

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