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slz396
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US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:05 pm

A US Congressional Committee has approved a bill recognising as genocide the mass killings of Armenians by Ottoman Turks in 1915-1923.

During World War I, as the Ottoman Turkish empire fought Russian forces, the Armenian minority in eastern Anatolia, Turkey sided with the Russians.

On 24 April 1915 Turkey rounded up and killed hundreds of Armenian community leaders.

In May 1915, the Armenian minority, two or three million strong, was forcefully deported from their homes: many died en route and numerous eyewitnesses also reported massacres by Turkish forces.

Atrocities against Armenians continued until the Ottoman empire collapsed after the war.

Armenians say 1.5 million of their people were killed during World War I, either through systematic massacres or through starvation. They allege that a deliberate genocide was carried out by the Ottoman Turkish empire.

Argentina, Belgium, Canada, France, Italy, Russia and Uruguay are among more than 20 countries which have formally recognised the genocide against the Armenians and so has the US Congres Committee now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6045182.stm
 
Falcon84
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:36 pm

And yet President Bush wants the Congress to quash this bill, as he said it'll hurt the war on terror. Well, if Turkey can't live up to its own past, too bad. This was terrorism against the Armenians. However late, it should be condemned.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:00 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Thread starter):
During World War I, as the Ottoman Turkish empire fought Russian forces, the Armenian minority in eastern Anatolia, Turkey sided with the Russians.

Actually they got ACCUSED of supporting the Russians, because the Turkish army suffered several setbacks against the Russians and needed a scapegoat.

Jan
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MaverickM11
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:10 pm

I don't understand why this? Why now?

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
And yet President Bush wants the Congress to quash this bill

Well your choices are support this bill and piss of Turkey, or don't. I'm not sure what this bill accomplishes but I do know what pissing off Turkey might do, especially to the Kurds.
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ANother
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:10 pm

Just a minute - is the "Ottoman Turkish empire" the same as the modern democratic Turkish state?

I don't think they are - no more than the current Japanese Government bombed Pearl Harbour or the current German government was involved in the Holocaust.

So, why do the Turks care about the labels used to describe what a previous government may have done?

So, why do other governments care either?

It happened - lots of people died both Armenian and Turkish, but isn't it time to move on?
 
pilotaydin
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
Turkey can't live up to its own past

my point....it was the ottomans....and the reason why turks care, which we really dont, because none of our modern actions have anything to do with this.....we care because of the silly EU, using this as another road block, when they well know this has nothing to do with modern day turkey...

it's funny, because im not a supporter of the Ottomans, im a Kemalist, someone who stopped the Ottomans, and founded modern day turkey.

So let me summarize it for you...an unclear chain of events took place, i say unclear because the ottomans and armeninans make serparate claims..so who'z right? and because of these events, the people of the world want the new comers, we the Turks, to take responsibility for the actions of people that we abolished and kicked out...kinda stupid if you ask me....

anyways, bash away you anti turks...

but it was stupid for the US to do this, if it passes the next round, i can tell you as someone on the inside that the airbase will be shutting down in the south, which is gonna suck for operation Iraqi whatever you wanna call it  Wink
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MD11Engineer
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:39 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 5):
my point....it was the ottomans....and the reason why turks care, which we really dont, because none of our modern actions have anything to do with this.....we care because of the silly EU, using this as another road block, when they well know this has nothing to do with modern day turkey...

Just a moment. The Turkish people didn't miraculously change after 1918, same as the German people didn't change in 1945, just because a new government structure took over.

As in Germany, many people, who knew about or were involved in the attrocities, kept living happily on, as if nothing happened.

This sounds too much like "it wasn't me, it was Adolf Hitler!".

Jan
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pilotaydin
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:55 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
This sounds too much like "it wasn't me, it was Adolf Hitler!".

so you feel like you are at the same mind set of Hitler? I should hope not....i don't want to pay taxes to a government that will say sorry for something I or anyone near my family or generation didnt do...

is this fair?
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moo
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:01 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 5):
my point....it was the ottomans....and the reason why turks care, which we really dont, because none of our modern actions have anything to do with this.....we care because of the silly EU, using this as another road block, when they well know this has nothing to do with modern day turkey...

I think the real reason this should not matter is that it was 92 years ago - how many people that carried out any of these alleged acts are even still alive, let alone in any position of power today?

The people that were responsible are long gone.

Let it rest.
 
Mir
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:10 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
Well your choices are support this bill and piss of Turkey, or don't. I'm not sure what this bill accomplishes but I do know what pissing off Turkey might do, especially to the Kurds.

I would think that after the US's desperation to not have the word "genocide" attached to the conflict in Rwanda, and the results of it, we'd be a little more willing not to shrink from calling a spade a spade just because it's politically convenient.

Yeah, it's long since over, but if Turkey were to own up to its past mistakes, this would become a non-issue quickly. The US owned up to Japanese-American internment, and nobody seriously holds it against us on the world stage anymore. Germany owned up to the Holocaust, and they have good relations with Israel. Turkey's reluctance to say that they screwed up and they apologize is puzzling - the more they hold out, the bigger an issue it becomes. We all know it was genocide, so why can't they just admit it and move on? It isn't going to go away on its own.

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Arrow
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:14 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 8):
I think the real reason this should not matter is that it was 92 years ago

It does bring up the question of how far back do we all have to go to apologize (and even provide compensation) for what our ancestors did. And here's a question. Have the U.S. Senate and House passed a similar resolution declaring the near-extermination of Native Americans in the 19th century as an act of genocide? If they have, then they are entitled to pass some judgment on others. If not, I suggest they look after their own history first.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocid

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:30 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 7):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 6):
This sounds too much like "it wasn't me, it was Adolf Hitler!".

so you feel like you are at the same mind set of Hitler? I should hope not....i don't want to pay taxes to a government that will say sorry for something I or anyone near my family or generation didnt do...

is this fair?

So who lived in Turkey when the Ottomans ruled? Did the people back then or the soldiers suddenly dissappear when Kemal Pasha took over?
So Turkey isd now populated by a completely new people, which suddenly appeared out of the air in 1920?

Aydin, your reasoning sounds pretty much like many Germans in the 1950s or 1960s. Blame the government (which sure gave the orders) but don't mind the normal soldiers and citizens who carried them out. They were all busy starting new lives and wanted that everybody would forget about their past deeds.

Jan

Quoting Moo (Reply 8):
I think the real reason this should not matter is that it was 92 years ago - how many people that carried out any of these alleged acts are even still alive, let alone in any position of power today?

The people that were responsible are long gone.

Let it rest.

Ok, it is a long time since the attrocities happened, and as you said, those who committed them and the victims are long dead. I'm for example strictly against class action law suits to get compensation from the modern Turkish government for "descendants" of the victims claiming estimated "losses" because their ancestors 92 years ago were killed, but it has to be accepted that ancestors of modern Turks were involved in a war crime, same as I have to accept that e.g. my grandfather on my mother's side was probably involved in attrocities in Poland and Russia as a member of the SS and got killed a few months later in the battle of Kursk.

Jan

[Edited 2007-10-11 08:31:26]
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Toast
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:43 pm

Since when do politicians get to decide what was genocide and what wasn't? How many US congressmen can find Armenia on a map, not to mention being familiar with its history?  Yeah sure

Of course there was a genocide; it was instigated by the Ottoman Empire, not by the Turkish Republic. Today's Turkey is as far removed on all levels from the Ottoman Empire as is Russia from the Romanov dynasty. It's utterly improbable that any of the murderers is still alive. Apologizing in anybody's name is a futile exercise. Besides, as Arrow said above, for how many generations is guilt to be carried?

IMO Turkey should admit (not apologize for) what happened for the sake of peace. As Mir said, one single well-thought sentence from Gül's mouth would turn the whole pointless debate into a non-issue instantly. Turkey's international reputation would improve greatly, normal relations with Armenia could be restored, and we could all move on. Only pride prevents the Turkish government from doing so - which is also the reason Japan is still in denial about many of its own atrocities (and you don't hear about Japan getting a lot of flak for it except from China.)

Anyway, the EU should absolutely drop the "mea culpa" requirement for negotiating Turkey's entry in the EU. There are far more important matters. Get over it already, people.

Apologize and correct your wrongs just after you've committed them, not a century down the road. And to those who want to pompously pass resolutions about events that happened on a country's territory a hundred years ago, start by examining your own past, and please apply the same standard to everyone.
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pilotaydin
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:58 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 11):
Aydin, your reasoning sounds pretty much like many Germans in the 1950s or 1960s. Blame the government (which sure gave the orders) but don't mind the normal soldiers and citizens who carried them out. They were all busy starting new lives and wanted that everybody would forget about their past deeds.

Jan

Jan I see your point my friend, but the things is, we all know that maybe 0.001% of turks now may have a relative directly related to the situation that happened years ago...
however i have 2 questions


1 - why does the world want an apology, when an OFFICIAL document or paper doesnt exist to say what happened, in other words, no one has 100% evidence of what went on, BUT somehow turkey should respond with an apology...

2 - Isn't the point of an apology to be SINCERE, why would you want Turks and Turkey to say sorry, if we don't mean it...is it the sorry you want to hear, be it fake, or is it something sincere, because if you want Turkey to be SORRY in a REAL manner, politically embarressing us is not the way to go....

This just makes me feel the world doesn't give a damn about Armenia, because you want a fake apology, and a fake apology will not change the attitude of Turks or Turkey....so what is it that the world wants?
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MD11Engineer
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:17 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 13):
1 - why does the world want an apology, when an OFFICIAL document or paper doesnt exist to say what happened, in other words, no one has 100% evidence of what went on, BUT somehow turkey should respond with an apology...

Ok, the Nazis were too German and documented everything they did (which in the end provided the evidence to the prosecutors, very hard for Goering to deny that he didn't know of certain orders he signed himself).

The Turkish genocide on the Armenians (as the Japanese one in the Pacific in WW2) was less organised than the German genocide of Jews and other unwanted persons. But AFAIK there are enough oral accounts of what has happened in Armenia back then.

I think it is too late for an apology, since the perpetrators are long dead and the Turkish Republic of today has nothing to do with the Ottoman empire, but I think it is very important to accept that the genocide has happened, if not only for the credibility of modern Turkey. Sweeping it under the table will make you actually loose face (and this goes as well for the Japanese in Asia).

Jan
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andessmf
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:18 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 13):

There is a difference between the Nazis and what happened in Armenia.

You still have people attempting to deny what the Nazis did.

If I understand correctly, Turkey is not saying that the deaths did not occur, but that what happened was not genocide.

Article 2 of the CPPCG defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."

In other words, if the Ottoman empire never intended for the Armenians to disappear, legally it is not genocide.

The US did not commit genocide in Japan, for example, as it was never the intention of the US to have Japan disappear. But a lot of Japanese died.

Anyway, I see the US congress has plenty of time on their hands...
 
MaverickM11
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:33 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 9):
I would think that after the US's desperation to not have the word "genocide" attached to the conflict in Rwanda,

We did? Why? I find that hard to believe since we're falling over ourselves trying to label Darfur a genocide, but not Congo but that's another thread that I started Wink.
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MaverickM11
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:38 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 15):
Anyway, I see the US congress has plenty of time on their hands...

What is the benefit of this bill?
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Jetsgo
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:51 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
What is the benefit of this bill?

There is no benefit, but I'll tell you the purpose is to keep them from having to decide on issues which will make or break their re-election attempts. Wish I got paid that much, worked that little, and decided on stuff that I should have no authority on. But hey, what else would our tax dollars go for?
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slider
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:06 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 12):
Besides, as Arrow said above, for how many generations is guilt to be carried?

Well, at the risk of getting off track, the answer to that is unlimited evidently. After all, there is still talk about slavery reparations here in the US, another ludicrous windmill attack.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):

What is the benefit of this bill?

Who knows.

We have the situation in Darfur today, but it's nice that so many do-gooding limp wristed hand wringing candy-asses in the halls of US Congress have the time and wherewithal to worry about a WWI issue of no relevance today.

As a student of history, I'm big into not letting things go and learning from the lessons of the past, but giving the Turkish government and the Turkish people a wedgie right now for something they're not responsible for is just moronic.
 
lobster
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 12):
Since when do politicians get to decide what was genocide and what wasn't? How many US congressmen can find Armenia on a map, not to mention being familiar with its history?

Great, more US bashing. Never mind the fact that YOUR OWN COUNTRY recognizes that it was genocide. But, since the US does now too, lets bash us.  Angry

Yeah, because I'm sure your politicians would know SO much more than American, Canadian, French, Russian, etc officials. I forgot, we can't read, nor are we big on history.
 Yeah sure
 
Toast
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:15 pm

Quoting Lobster (Reply 20):
Great, more US bashing.

Oh Jesus, not that again.

The jerk-offs in Belgium's parliament and in all the other concerned countries who spend their time passing useless resolutions like this are just as stupid.

Happy now?  Yeah sure
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MaverickM11
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:25 pm

Quoting Slider (Reply 19):
We have the situation in Darfur today, but it's nice that so many do-gooding limp wristed hand wringing candy-asses in the halls of US Congress have the time and wherewithal to worry about a WWI issue of no relevance today.

That's what it sounds like to me but if someone can tell me a benefit that outweighs pissing off one of our better allies in the Muslim world, I'd support it.
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TK787
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:30 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
I don't understand why this? Why now?



Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
What is the benefit of this bill?

Very nice comments here already.
Why now? Why the US? Who benefits from this bill?
 
OHLHD
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:51 pm

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 7):
so you feel like you are at the same mind set of Hitler? I should hope not....i don't want to pay taxes to a government that will say sorry for something I or anyone near my family or generation didnt do...

is this fair?

No it is not fair. Half of my family is from Austria and they had nothing to do with the nazis even worse some part of my family was deported and killed but still a few years back money was paid to survivors ( also with my taxes) but me and my family were not involved.

I cannot see the problem of Turkey to say: Yes we did it. It won´t change a lot. As you say , you and millions others living in Turkey were not involved. It is a question of leaving the past behind.

However I do not see the point why the US has to be involved in this. I am 100% sure there other problems the US has.
 
pilotaydin
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:56 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 24):
However I do not see the point why the US has to be involved in this. I am 100% sure there other problems the US has.

yes this is what caught my attention....in my eyes, if they want to get detailed about things in the world, we can pass all sorts of bills here condeming the us for their poor actions in new orleans, for lying to their people about WMD, i mean the list is endless,

what pisses me off is, they saturate our airspace for their Iraqi thing, yet they just passed this stupid lil bill....i think its shit that there was an armenian praying in the US congress, so much for secular huh? damn...
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TheCol
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:02 pm

Quoting Arrow (Reply 10):
If they have, then they are entitled to pass some judgment on others. If not, I suggest they look after their own history first.

I wouldn't be to hasty to pass judgement on the US, considering that we Canadians are just as guilty.

Quoting Toast (Reply 12):
MO Turkey should admit (not apologize for) what happened for the sake of peace.

 checkmark 

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MD11Engineer
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocid

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:03 pm

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 24):
However I do not see the point why the US has to be involved in this. I am 100% sure there other problems the US has.



Quoting TK787 (Reply 23):
Very nice comments here already.
Why now? Why the US? Who benefits from this bill?

Maybe because of the huge damages awarded by American courts of law. I think with this bill it is possible by people to sue the Turkish government (or Turkish government owned companies) in the US because their great-great-great-grandfather was killed in the attrocities.
Remember a similar attempt at a lawsuit by Black organisations and African countries to sue the US for damages which occured 150 years ago before the civil war during slavery? I don't know what happened to this lawsuit though.

Jan
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cfalk
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:04 pm

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 1):
And yet President Bush wants the Congress to quash this bill, as he said it'll hurt the war on terror. Well, if Turkey can't live up to its own past, too bad. This was terrorism against the Armenians. However late, it should be condemned.

Wait a sec.

The Democratic leadership pushes through a condemnation of something that happened nearly 100 years ago, and performed by a government that ceased to exist after WWI (The Ottoman Empire), and thus has no relation to anything going on today, but refused to pass a bill condemning the Iranian Revolutionary Guards for terrorism, including the training and arms they provide to people who shoot at our own troops today?

Can you say, "messed-up priorities"?
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PA110
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:06 pm

Americans need to reconcile "Manifest Destiny" with the destruction of Native American civilization
Japanese need to acknowledge their behavior during WW2, particularly in China and Southeast Asia.
Turks need to acknowledge the genocide of Armenians during the Ottoman Period.
and the world needs to acknowledge it stood by and did nothing during the Rwandan genocide.
Look, it's been swell, but the swelling's gone down.
 
OHLHD
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:07 pm

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 27):
Maybe because of the huge damages awarded by American courts of law. I think with this bill it is possible by people to sue the Turkish government (or Turkish government owned companies) in the US because their great-great-great-grandfather was killed in the attrocities.
Remember a similar attempt at a lawsuit by Black organisations and African countries to sue the US for damages which occured 150 years ago before the civil war during slavery? I don't know what happened to this lawsuit though.

Jan

I hope if Turkey gets sued that those idiots get zero. People must live on, on both sides.The story belongs to the history books and should not be forgotten but it does not belong into a court.

Has that probably something to do with the Turkish army getting the allowance to enter Iraq?
 
Arrow
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:12 pm

Quoting TheCol (Reply 26):
I wouldn't be to hasty to pass judgement on the US, considering that we Canadians are just as guilty.

Agreed. But the thread is about a resolution of the US Congress. As far as I can tell, they've never applied the definition of genocide to the 19th century Indian wars. I'm just saying they should clean up their own historical act before they pass judgment on others. Applies to Canada, too.
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N231YE
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:15 pm

Quoting PA110 (Reply 29):
and the world needs to acknowledge it stood by and did nothing during the Rwandan genocide.

Have you seen the movie: Hotel Rwanda? It is one of the few movies I can give the "excellent" adjective to...actually, it was the first time I ever even heard of the genocide.
 
Toast
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:18 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 28):
Can you say, "messed-up priorities"?

 yes 
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Pope
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:19 pm

Turkey has now recalled its Ambassador to the US in protest.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/11/us.turkey.armenians/index.html
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
andessmf
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:25 pm

Quoting PA110 (Reply 29):
Americans need to reconcile "Manifest Destiny" with the destruction of Native American civilization

Isn't one of the reasons that Native American tribes have been allowed gaming throughtout the US? Paying off the guilt from that genocide? (I don't want to sound mean, but what the US did could be classified as genocide now)

Quoting OHLHD (Reply 30):
I hope if Turkey gets sued that those idiots get zero

Reparations never made any sense to me, as once they were offered to one group, others could easily come back and collect.
 
Toast
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:26 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 34):
Turkey has now recalled its Ambassador to the US in protest.

Just what the US needed, severely pissing off another ally. An ally with a border with Iraq, and a strategic base for the US Army. Well done.  Yeah sure
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Toast
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:28 pm

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 35):
Isn't one of the reasons that Native American tribes have been allowed gaming throughtout the US? Paying off the guilt from that genocide? (I don't want to sound mean, but what the US did could be classified as genocide now)

Great, another round of US bashing.  Yeah sure


 Wink
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skywatch
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:31 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 3):
I don't understand why this? Why now?



Quoting ANother (Reply 4):
It happened - lots of people died both Armenian and Turkish, but isn't it time to move on?



Quoting Moo (Reply 8):
The people that were responsible are long gone.

Let it rest.



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 28):
Can you say, "messed-up priorities"?

 checkmark  Let the past go the way of the dodo. This reminds me of the recent rush of all the states in the South apologizing for their role in the slave trade. I believe in forgiveness, but isn't 150+ years later a little late? Just out of curiosity, have the Spanish apologized for eliminating the Aztecs yet?

---Skywatch
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baroque
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:40 pm

Quoting PA110 (Reply 29):

 checkmark  That about sums it up but you probably need to have a few "write in" options - I doubt if that is a full list, missing Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao and goodness knows who else.

One problem with the genocide debates is the blithe assumption that it is a rare event. It is so common as to be a sort of norm rather than a rare occurrence.
 
andessmf
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:49 pm

Quoting Skywatch (Reply 38):
Let the past go the way of the dodo.

Ditto.

Quoting Skywatch (Reply 38):
Just out of curiosity, have the Spanish apologized for eliminating the Aztecs yet?

Don't forget the Mayas and the Incas. Plus the Caribs, ad infinitum.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting Skywatch (Reply 38):
Just out of curiosity, have the Spanish apologized for eliminating the Aztecs yet?

What about the descendants of the Aztecs apologising to the descendants of the neighbouring tribes they defeated and used for human sacrifices? After all, the Aztecs were not a very peacefull people either...

Jab
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PA110
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocid

Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:57 pm

There's a difference between demanding an apology, and simply acknowledging that the atrocities took place. Demanding an apology is completely counterproductive, especially for anything that occurred more than a generation earlier. However, simply acknowledging historical reality is not an unreasonable demand. The U.S. is particularly guilty in this regard, because most U.S. history books completely gloss over the treatment of indigenous populations during the great expansion westward. In fact, when I was in high school, colonial periods around the globe were presented as the white man bringing education and modernization to the "less civilized". What a bunch of crap! Those books didn't mention the wholesale slaughter of indigenous populations around the world. If history books didn't gloss over the less pleasant realities of the past, the world might not have turned a blind eye to Rwanda, or deal a bit more forcefully with what's happening in Darfur now.

[Edited 2007-10-11 12:07:07]
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propatriamori
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:48 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 17):
What is the benefit of this bill?

Certain politicians get to please a very vocal well financed Armenian minority in California for whom this issue is extrememly important = campaign funding.

History matters. Certainly the Turkish Republic of today bears very little resemblence to the Ottoman empire that was responsible for the atrocities. I don't think there can be much dispute that something nasty happened to a lot of Armenians who did not just suddenly dissappear. I'm not getting into the documentation or judge exactly what did or did not happen or what to call it. But I don't think there is any benefit to trying to treat the citizens or government of the current Turkish Republic punitively for the actions of a country, culture, or civilization that no longer exists.

Do we pass legislation condemning the current Japanese government for the actions of the Japanese empire of 1931-1945 or the current German government for the actions of 1933-1945 to please our Chinese, Filipino, Eastern European, or Jewish constituents?

You could argue that those governments have taken responsibility for thier actions and the Turks haven't. But why should they? The Turks take a lot of pride in the drastic step toward a modern government and culture the current Turkish Republic represents. The U.S. and the west asking them to take the blame for something done by a civilization they left in the dust is a huge insult for them. We're basically saying to them: "You are all still the silly little backward Ottomans you have always been, who are you to try to move forward?"

Worse yet, all this rejection is playing right into the hands of the Islamists, who are saying, "Vote for us, having an Islamic Government is what truly being Turkish is all about, the west doesn't want you anyway and we can go it alone". By rejecting Turkey we are really pushing them backwards in History. Can the west really afford to find out how far back we can push them?

The U.S. especially can ill afford this right now, considering the powder keg there. From what I hear (my wife and in-laws are Turkish) our public image can't get any worse, and I'm truly astonished to hear what people in Turkey believe the U.S. is doing. Europe has already rejected Turkey, now the U.S.? We are very close to a huge mess.
 
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LTU932
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:53 pm

Quoting ANother (Reply 4):
Just a minute - is the "Ottoman Turkish empire" the same as the modern democratic Turkish state?

There is a big difference between the times of the Ottoman Empire and the Turkish Republic that was founded by Mustafa Kemal Attatürk.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
cfalk
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:59 pm

Quoting Propatriamori (Reply 43):
We're basically saying to them: "You are all still the silly little backward Ottomans you have always been, who are you to try to move forward?"

 checkmark 

Quoting Propatriamori (Reply 43):
Worse yet, all this rejection is playing right into the hands of the Islamists, who are saying, "Vote for us, having an Islamic Government is what truly being Turkish is all about, the west doesn't want you anyway and we can go it alone".

 checkmark  checkmark  checkmark 

I think we can take it as one more sign that, while the Republicans don't understand the dangers of Islamic Fundementalism that terribly well, the Democrats understand it even less. You don't spit in the eye of the Turks when they haven't done anything to you, and have indeed been a valuable ally for 50 years. And to think that the Dems are running on a ticket of having better relations with other countries, of listening to our allies, etc...  Yeah sure
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bahadir
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:00 pm

As a Turk who has been living in States for 17 years this pissed me off big time. This has even pissed me off more when most of the supporters of the bill are Democrats as i am a hard core liberal. But i can see this vote being important to the livelyhood of California politicians.
Now, we are talking about the tragic events of 1915s but we are trying to judge them by the rules of 2007. There is a lot of bad propaganda going on on the Armenian diaspora side, to label Turkey and then sue Turkish people, current government and the Turkish people. That is the next step in their plan and that's what they claim they will do.
The fact of the matter is there have been a lot of deaths during and pre-WWI in Anatolia. A lot of Turks killed a lot of Armenians, and a lot of Armenians killed Turks in that time. There were even clashes between Kurds and Armenians. (Believe it or not they fought each other even though they are all supportive of these causes). A lot of Turks suffered in mass killings in Crete , a lot of Greeks living in Asia Minor killed local Turks when the Greek army marched through Izmir and western Anatolia.

My grandmother's brother was killed by Greek soldiers when he was herding sheep for no apparent reason. I guess I should ask for compensations for that too..

I have met a lot of Greeks that had to abandon their homes in Turkey and I met a lot more Turks that abandoned their homes in Greece due to the 'exchange of population' after the war in 1923. Turks got labeled in their homeland and the Greeks were never liked by the local ones. (The entire Rebetika culture is based on this incidence)

So , let's see who benefited from this? :
- Hard core nationalist who want to exterminate the people who don't agree with them.
- The politicians who were after the minority of Armenian vote in CA.
- The people who will benefit from Turkish - American relations taking a nose dive.
- or whoever might benefit from less stability in that region of the world.
Earthbound misfit I
 
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocid

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:05 pm

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 44):
Quoting ANother (Reply 4):
Just a minute - is the "Ottoman Turkish empire" the same as the modern democratic Turkish state?

There is a big difference between the times of the Ottoman Empire and the Turkish Republic that was founded by Mustafa Kemal Attat�rk.

Basically there was a revolution in Turkey in the 1920s led by Kemal Pasha, which toppled the remains of the corrupt Ottoman empire and installed the modern Turkish Republic, which oriented itself on Western Europe (Introduction of Latin letters instead of Arab letters, seperation of religion and government opposed to the Sultan, who was at the same time a religious leader, introduction of modern laws based on Swiss, Italian and German laws opposed to Sharia law).
At the same time several powers were trying to get pieces out of core Turkey (I'm not talking about the Ottoman colonial empire in today's Arabic countries, which Kemal Pasha gave up, but about mainland Turkey. E.g Britain and France wanted to control the Bosporus, Italy occupied several islands off the turkish shore, Grece tried to get a piece of Turkey) . This was countered by a strong nationalism centered on the military. Kemal Pasha was one of the best Turkish generals and largely responsible that the British and ANZAC landings in Galipoli failed.

Jan
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocid

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:15 pm

Quoting PA110 (Reply 42):
There's a difference between demanding an apology, and simply acknowledging that the atrocities took place.

Exactly. Most people don't expect Turks to apologize for what the Ottomans did in WWI. They do want the Turks to ADMIT it. It's different. Denial is the issue, not reparations or anything.

Quoting Propatriamori (Reply 43):
But I don't think there is any benefit to trying to treat the citizens or government of the current Turkish Republic punitively for the actions of a country, culture, or civilization that no longer exists.

This bill does not request any censure of Turkey, does not blame the Post-Ottoman government or the Turkish people for what happened, and does not demand an apology.

I'll repeat that:

This bill does not request any censure of Turkey, does not blame the Post-Ottoman government or the Turkish people for what happened, and does not demand an apology.

It only acknowledges that the events occurred and applies the word genocide.

The Turkish government is angry because they claim it is "all lies."

Quoting Propatriamori (Reply 43):
the actions of the Japanese empire of 1931-1945 or the current German government for the actions of 1933-1945 to please our Chinese, Filipino, Eastern European, or Jewish constituents?

You could argue that those governments have taken responsibility for their actions and the Turks haven't. But why should they?

The Germans have acknowledged what happened many times over. They have bent over backwards to do so.

The Japanese have not. There is some pretty scary revisionist history, denial, and omission in some brand new Japanese textbooks.

As for the treatment of the native Americans (or for that matter slavery), I think it is inexcusable that textbooks often gloss over what happened, or whitewash the reputations of individual actors in history. How can Andrew Jackson, a genocidal maniac basically (though his raw numbers are small by 20th-century standards), be taught as an American hero and even be on our currency? Why do we still celebrate Columbus day? That said, I think you'll find it pretty hard in this day and age to find a person who claims that it didn't happen, or that it wasn't a horrible thing.

Quoting Propatriamori (Reply 43):
The Turks take a lot of pride in the drastic step toward a modern government and culture the current Turkish Republic represents. The U.S. and the west asking them to take the blame for something done by a civilization they left in the dust is a huge insult for them. We're basically saying to them: "You are all still the silly little backward Ottomans you have always been, who are you to try to move forward?"

Indeed Turkey has a fantastic history with much to take credit for. I don't believe anyone anywhere should be either proud or ashamed based on what his/her ancestors did, only based on what he/she has done personally. But it is bulls**t to say that asking people to admit that something happened is punitive. You can enjoy the more positive parts of your history more if you don't whitewash or deny the bad sides.

[Edited 2007-10-11 13:43:01]
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cfalk
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RE: US Congres Committee: Turkey Committed Genocide!

Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:17 pm

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 46):
As a Turk who has been living in States for 17 years this pissed me off big time.

I'm not one to apologize very often, but as an American who has spent quite a bit of time in Turkey, I want to apologize for the dimwits we currently have in Congress.

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 46):
This has even pissed me off more when most of the supporters of the bill are Democrats as i am a hard core liberal.

It shouldn't surprise you. Democrats have proven to be rather thick when it comes to foreign policy, ever since Truman (the last good Democratic Foreign Policy President). JFK and LBJ gave us Vietnam. Carter all but dropped his pants and bent over for the Soviets and the Iranians. Clinton gets a pass simply because there were no serious foreign policy challenges during his administration.

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 46):
But i can see this vote being important to the livelyhood of California politicians.

Now you are just making excuses for them. Are you letting ideology get in the way of the facts?

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 46):
Now, we are talking about the tragic events of 1915s but we are trying to judge them by the rules of 2007.

Absolutely, and it happens whenever some dimwit starts cursing the US Founding Fathers for permitting slavery to continue (https://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1725235/) or how the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were war crimes (https://www.airliners.net/discussions/non_aviation/read.main/1725739/1/#1).

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 46):
There is a lot of bad propaganda going on on the Armenian diaspora side, to label Turkey and then sue Turkish people, current government and the Turkish people.

I hadn't thought of that. Now that the US government has officially called the event genocide, US courts can be asked to rule, even in absentia.
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