Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 96): Bush is obviously going to veto it, for obvious reasons.

President Bush can't veto it. It is a Congressional Resolution....

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 96): Although I see both sides as having valid arguments, I seriously do not understand why Congress did this, other than to appease an Armenian-American lobby.

It's a human rights issue. This summer Congress recognized the plight of Korean "comfort-women." Even though it is many years later, it still deserves to be remembered. I am glad Congress finally appears to be acting on something...

You know, watching Santos on CNN yesterday he mentioned the fact that he is a survivor of the holocaust. Well, call it whatever you want, 1915 mass deaths that took lives from both sides are not the same as what the Jewish people went through in WWII. Ironic thing is noone is interested to hear what the hell Turkey wants to say.. Turkey's position is listed as a 'strategic ally'.. Before that, why don't we discuss the level of Armenian population in Anatolia at the time? Why don't we discuss what really happened.. Noone is interested in finding that out..

Now, I posted some links , I have been reading some of them.. One is particularly interesting.. The article talks about Armenia annexing some land from the Kurds and Kurds reaction to that.. Interestingly enough two major problems facing Turkey has always been the Armenian and Kurdish issues... Since I was a kid (I am almost 40) the territorial claims of Kurds and Armenias has not stopped. Sometimes it's even both (like it is today)..

Why now? This issue is a stick that US is using to prevent Turkish incursion into Northern Iraq.. That's another way of applying more pressure on Turkey..

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 89): Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 88): and it might reconsider its military alliance with Israel. What does Israel have to do with anything of the above??? Then again with "insulted turkishness" you can expect all kind of hysterical, irrational reactions from Gul & Erdogan.

The "rational" answer would be a straight "nothing", but since when is politics rational ???
-

Quoting TK787 (Reply 90): the cool headed ones in Turkey

I deeply regret to say that the reactions onto similar decisions by the National Council (House of Representatives) in Switzerland, the Assemblee National (parliament) in France, and the E.U. parliament gave the impression that it is NOT "the cool headed ones in Turkey" who are in power.
-

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 95): SECULAR - how secular is it if your CONGRESS or HOUSE, where POLITICS and not RELIGION should be forefront, invites an Armenian Priest for prayer during opening

Pilotaydin,
What makes you think that the US is secular?
On its currency it says "In God we trust",
Presidents are sworn in putting their hand on the bible,
Most marriages are done in a church,
In a courthouse you will hear: "Nothing but the truth, so help me God"
Can you imagine any one of those happening in Turkey, whose secularism is questioned?

I just think this country needs to mind its own damn business and stop trying to get into every else's business and the world would be a better place. The U.S congress is more idiotic than I thought they were after passing this foolhardy resolution. This happened well over 80 years ago. Why bring it up now? Haven't they got anything else better to do?

Why in the hell is or congress waisting time with this crap?

The United States has already adopted two resolutions on this matter in years gone by. Once in the mid seventies, and again in 1995 during the Clinton administration, so the real question is, why do this again and why do it now? The answer is that the Dems, unable to honorably defund the Iraq war effort see this resolution as way to get Turkey to withdraw support and order the US to withdraw from Turkey, prohibit overflights, etc. This will weaken our ability to fight in Iraq and give them more ammunition to claim that the war is lost, there is no military solution or whatever their talking point of the day is. The "leaders" of the present day Democratic party are not dumb or stupid, but they are blinded by ambition, and will do or say ANYTHING to discredit the President. It matters not who the President is, they would do the same thing to any Republican President. Giving aid or comfort to the enemy is treasonous in the US, punishable by death, and a very strong argument can be made that adopting the proposed resolution can be defined as treason.

Unfortunately, there are far too many US politicians, from both parties, that ignore national security in their naked grab for power. They are more concerned with getting power, keeping and expanding it and lining their own pockets while in elected office.

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 75): Quoting Toast (Reply 36): Just what the US needed, severely pissing off another ally And the President didn't have a thing to do with it, go figure! Quoting Toast (Reply 36): An ally with a border with Iraq, and a strategic base for the US Army. Well done. And emboldening the Turkish to cross the border to go after Kurdish rebels that have been making cross border raids. Thank democrats!

They cannot stop the funding for Iraq so they will poke Bush and the Troops in the eye any way they can. This is their way of doing business.

Quoting Glydrflyr (Reply 106): The answer is that the Dems, unable to honorably defund the Iraq war effort see this resolution as way to get Turkey to withdraw support and order the US to withdraw from Turkey, prohibit overflights, etc.

I don't really see them doing that, they are part of NATO for almost 60 years, unless they were to withdraw from NATO, which is totally out of the question. Plus Turkey is trying to get into the EU, and France and other nations have done the same so I can't see how Turkey won't be our ally for this.

And if it is a Democratic party stratagem, I doubt it is, there are hundreds of ways the Dems could stall the war effort, they haven't tried anything intelligent yet, if they wanted they could have done something more clever long ago.

Quoting Propatriamori (Reply 50): Quoting N229NW (Reply 48): But it is bulls**t to say that asking people to admit that something happened is punitive. Almost any Turk would disagree with you. To them it is an insult and is perceived as punitive.

Sorry, if admitting historical events (not stereotypes or generalizations but historical events) is taken as punitive and insulting, then that is their problem. What would you say to a German who told you it was "insulting and punitive" of you to claim that the Holocaust occurred? Would you just say, "OK then, how insensitive of me, those neo-fascist websites must be right, it is all a conspiracy to make Germany look bad" ?

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 74): What pisses me off today CNN did a piece about 'Turkey invading Northern Iraq'.. Noone mentioned about the 13 soldiers that were gunned down by terrorist.. Noone in the US know about the PKK, or how they are being harbored in Northern Iraq.

This is a good, fair point.

Furthermore, recent Armenian foreign policy has hardly been spotless, where Azerbaijan is concerned; and yes with the WWI events, there is the difference from the Holocaust that during the last decades of the Ottoman empire some Armenian groups within the empire were already rebelling. Still, there is plenty of evidence that the genocide against the broader Armenian population was systematized, planned, and occurred. It is the revisionism that really rankles when it comes to the Turkish government's "pride" campaign. It has taken a certain bravery on the part of a limited number of Turkish historians to investigate this and it is odd that the rest of the world's historians have reached a consensus that is suppressed and denied by Turkey.

So I do think the "Insulting Turkishness" law is at stake here--very much so.

There is so much great history of Turkey, why the need to obsessively scrub out the low point(s)? ESPECIALLY if they weren't the fault of the current government...

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 59): I cannot state enough that Turkish people suffered a lot at the end of 19th century and the beginning of 20th in so many wars, but you don't see them asking for pay back like the Armenian diaspora does. Thousands of Turks dies in Crimea, Crete, Western Thrace and thousands of Arabs, Armenians, Kurds dies during the fighting that took place in that period as well.

The loss of life in wars is not the same as a concerted, systematized effort to demonize and destroy a certain race or part of the population, for whatever reason.

Look, I'm not trying to claim some high moral ground for the US, only to say that I find it hard to sympathize with the "insult to Turkish pride" BS...

For example, I'd like to see more Americans educated about some of the more disgusting adventures the US government has undertaken since WWII as well--such as toppling the democratic (and not even communist) government in Guatemala in the 1950s, resulting in probably about 100,000 civilian deaths over the next years, all because of paranoia about communism and the influence of a fruit company that had cheated on its taxes... It's true most Americans don't know about these things, and no official apology will be forthcoming. But no one writing about this will be taken to court. And it wasn't genocide.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 95): You probably can't show me Turkey, Armenia on a map or draw out any political or physical features for me, yet you stand behind a wave of stereotype...if i asked you on the spot to tell me about Armenia, the British, Ataturk, and the Ottomans, you would draw a BLANK ass stare, YET, you are an expert on the fact that it has been called a genocide, and it's the TURK's fault, funny enough we didn't exist back then as Turkey, nor wrote in Turkish, but you can voice an opinion...

Though I almost never agree with DL021 about anything political, I'm guessing he knows more about Turkey than you do about America, because you seem to know almost nothing. I remember another thread where you posted the links to the conspiracy KKK-type websites to prove that Jews have been secretly in control of the US policy even back at the turn of the twentieth century when they were treated like sh*t here (not allowed to hold many jobs, official posts, etc. etc.) and had almost no influence or representation in government. As far as I'm concerned, that thread already showed that your knowledge of US history is based on reading conspiracy theory websites, but let's go to what you have written here:

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 95): Quoting DL021 (Reply 80): I agree that the genocide against Armenians was terror and should be condemned I agree the genocide against Red Indians was terror and should be condemned

Yes, that qualifies. So far, so good. You won't however, find a single American on A.net (that I've ever seen) trying to claim that the US destruction of Native American cultures is just a web of fabrications...

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 95): Quoting DL021 (Reply 80): I agree the genocide against the Japanese was terror and should be condemend.

I think that you are actually talking about the Internment camps. While these camps were inexcusable, if you equate the wartime internment of Japanese-Americans, resulting in literally a handful of deaths, to the documented attempt to wipe out a racial minority resulting in over a million deaths, then you lose all credibility again. Furthermore, the US government has officially apologized on several occasions and provided monetary compensation.

If you mean Hiroshima and Nagasaki (though I don't think you did), then that's a tricky one. These were massive (and probably avoidable) causes of civilian deaths, but there is at least some reasonable argument that far more deaths were prevented, both within the war (by ending it sooner) and because the horror of the atomic bomb was demonstrated in a way that (so far and I hope against hope forever) prevented further use. In any case, there is a difference between civilian deaths (even large numbers of unnecessary ones) and an attempt to wipe out the Japanese people (either in the US or Japan), which would have been genocide.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 95): Quoting DL021 (Reply 80): I agree the genocide of Iraqis was terror and should be condemned...

I was out protesting this war before it started. It is a moral and practical disaster. I have no excuses for it. The US has a bloodbath on its hands and more too. But it bears no resemblance to genocide.

I know your comebacks to DL021 were meantto sound ridiculous since you were trying to claim that they were as "childish" as what he said. But the thing is, they aren't analogous to what he said, so they make no sense as a counterargument.

Quoting Pope (Reply 62): 95% of American history taught at the elementary, middle and high school level in the US is revisionist and incomplete. We teach kids that our country was founded on the idea that "all men are created equal" yet conveniently ignore that what they meant was "all rich white male landowners" were created equal. We teach concepts like manifest destiny as if they were only a good thing and largely ignore the harm we caused to other peoples.

Don't often agree with you, but you're completely right here of course. Although manifest destiny as a good thing? I don't remember any history teacher I had from elementary through to high school ever saying that...

[Edited 2007-10-13 17:10:19]

Quoting N229NW (Reply 109): So far, so good. You won't however, find a single American on A.net (that I've ever seen) trying to claim that the US destruction of Native American cultures is just a web of fabrications...

However, there are a lot of people who would like to sugarcoat and downplay the atrocities committed.

Quoting Pope (Reply 65): 95% of American history taught at the elementary, middle and high school level in the US is revisionist and incomplete. We teach kids that our country was founded on the idea that "all men are created equal" yet conveniently ignore that what they meant was "all rich white male landowners" were created equal. We teach concepts like manifest destiny as if they were only a good thing and largely ignore the harm we caused to other peoples.

Have to agree

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 107): This is their way of doing business.

rather smart eh?

Has there ever been any kind of proper research what exactly happened 90y ago?
The argument "there are no documents left" sounds silly, I am sure more facts could be found - perhaps by a group of multi-national scientists, to keep it all as neutral and fair as possible.

Finland had a bloody and cruel civil war around the same time, some 30,000 were killed in a country of 3 million then - and they are still doing the research work who killed who. And not to find the 'bad guys' but to get a more clear picture of the history.

Quoting Andaman (Reply 108): The argument "there are no documents left" sounds silly, I am sure more facts could be found - perhaps by a group of multi-national scientists, to keep it all as neutral and fair as possible.

Actually there is quite a bit of documentation (as Klaus mentioned) in German archives. In WW1 Germany and the Ottoman empire were allies. Germany sent troops and military advisers to Turkey, who witnessed the attrocities and wrote reports about them to the German imperial government and general staff in typical German fashion. These documents still exist in German archives.

Jan

Quoting MSYtristar (Reply 104): Haven't they got anything else better to do?

Whatever, according to latest news, Turkish bombardments of Kurdish villages in the autonomous Turkish zone of Iraq have already begun !                --- "rationalists" of course can say that the two things have nothing to do with each other ! Oh sure, of course not, of course not -.................

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 112): Actually there is quite a bit of documentation (as Klaus mentioned) in German archives. In WW1 Germany and the Ottoman empire were allies. Germany sent troops and military advisers to Turkey, who witnessed the attrocities and wrote reports about them to the German imperial government and general staff in typical German fashion. These documents still exist in German archives. Jan

What they say about these documents in Turkey?
Perhaps some cultural differences but I can't understand all the Turkish reactions here, the demonstrations and similar reactions. Why not just clear the mystery and forget the national pride for a while. What ever happened or not, the world tends to think Turkey acts like they refuse the deal with their history and are hiding something.

[Edited 2007-10-15 13:19:56]

Quoting Andaman (Reply 114): What ever happened or not, the world tends to think Turkey acts like they refuse the deal with their history and are hiding something.

To keep sounding like a broken record, Turkey has not and has never denied the number of Armenians that died, the only part in dispute is whether what happened legally constitutes genocide.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 115): legally constitutes genocide

is Turkey's claim that it was not a systematic killing of Armenians, it was rather a forced removal which inadvertently led to the death of 1.5 million Turks? Another point that a lot of Turks seem to make is that the actions were carried out by the Ottaman Turks which is not the current government of Turkey, and it according to Turks would be inappropriate for them to apologize for crimes committed that "their" government didnt do

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 115): To keep sounding like a broken record, Turkey has not and has never denied the number of Armenians that died, the only part in dispute is whether what happened legally constitutes genocide.

Even before what US Gongress said now, this has been an uncomfortable issue in Turkey and you have got mixed messages from Turkey, depends who has been talking. If official Turkey is ok with the numbers of Armenians that died, why don't they show a little more interest to research what happened.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 22): That's what it sounds like to me but if someone can tell me a benefit that outweighs pissing off one of our better allies in the Muslim world, I'd support it.

Saudi Arabia is crucial for America's interests in the Middle East - does that mean that congress should come out and say "oh no, everything is fine and dandy in the King of Saud, no human rights violations are going on whatsover."

You (we) deal with them (both)or pragmatic reasons, which is fine - that does not mean you jave to ignore their wrongdoings, current (Saudi Arabia) or past (Turkey)

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 118): You (we) deal with them (both)or pragmatic reasons, which is fine - that does not mean you jave to ignore their wrongdoings, current (Saudi Arabia) or past (Turkey)

Life is about choices, but in this case, we are blaming modern day Turkey for things the Ottomans did almost a hundred years ago. This will do nothing for the US other than piss off Turkey, who may chip away at the little support for Iraq that remains. If we are going to piss Turkey off, I'd rather it be over their treatment of the Kurds today rather than the Armenians a century ago.

Quoting PA110 (Reply 29): Americans need to reconcile "Manifest Destiny" with the destruction of Native American civilization Japanese need to acknowledge their behavior during WW2, particularly in China and Southeast Asia. Turks need to acknowledge the genocide of Armenians during the Ottoman Period. and the world needs to acknowledge it stood by and did nothing during the Rwandan genocide.

Correct.

Quoting N229NW (Reply 109): Don't often agree with you, but you're completely right here of course. Although manifest destiny as a good thing? I don't remember any history teacher I had from elementary through to high school ever saying that...

Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 110): Quoting N229NW (Reply 109): So far, so good. You won't however, find a single American on A.net (that I've ever seen) trying to claim that the US destruction of Native American cultures is just a web of fabrications... However, there are a lot of people who would like to sugarcoat and downplay the atrocities committed.

I had recent experience of this very issue in a thread that I cannot remember, but I brought up the Indian wars. While the US side of the argument was not in agreement about the point I was making (about unintended consequences of American - probably most others too of course - wars) not one person suggested I was attacking American-ness or insulting America. The Turkish attitude to this is one of exceptionalism. We are all guilty of this sin from time to time, but the Turkish state is making a meal of this effort.

One start would be not to lock up your authors and film makers who address the issues. Think how influential T E Lawrence has been about parts of WW I. He was not exactly popular with the government in post war UK after he tried to support the Arab side at Versailles.

It is all such a contrast to the reconciliation with ANZAC over Gallipoli.

This is probably why;

http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=277340255492118

"As we've noted, 70% of our Iraq supplies are shipped through our base in Incirlik, Turkey. So is more than a third of our fuel. To say we badly need Turkish cooperation is an understatement."

Aw, good ol' patriotic democrats.

Haven't had time to read the entire thread. But, I must say, what the Democrats are doing here is outrageous!!! They are purposefully destabilizing the region & they F-ing know it!!! They are making a conscious effort to thwart America's efforts in the region by angering an important ally in a very tense & strategic part of the world. Which may result in more deaths of US service man & women!!!

It is obvious, the democrats are doing what they can to reverse the successful Surge! And make matters worse & more complicated. This is no time to stir the pot! Where were these dems when a genocide was taking place in Rwanda??? They & the lib media let Bill Clinton off the hook & ignored it!

I know that the Leaders in the Democratic party were bad, but not this bad & ruthless!!! I just can't believe this!!

JFK must have roled over in his grave when heard this!


http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS.../12/genocide.resolution/index.html

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi Thursday said arguments that Turkey is too vital an ally to alienate has delayed the resolution for too long."As long as there is genocide, there is need to speak out against it," she added.

Go fly a kite Pelosi.

Quoting OU812 (Reply 123): Where were these dems when a genocide was taking place in Rwanda??? They & the lib media let Bill Clinton off the hook & ignored it!

And that was a huge mistake. But that's no reason to just let this one go in order to be "fair to both sides".

-Mir

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 122): "As we've noted, 70% of our Iraq supplies are shipped through our base in Incirlik, Turkey. So is more than a third of our fuel. To say we badly need Turkish cooperation is an understatement." Aw, good ol' patriotic democrats.

It's also raising concern in the oil markets, resulting in higher prices. If the worse case scenario happens & oil prices go way up. It will hurt the US & world economy. Perfecting timing for the 08' elections!

What these back stabbing SOBs [democrats] are doing makes me want to puke! Their party 1st, the US a distant 2nd & the troops are not even on the f-ing minds!

Total scumbags!

Quoting Mir (Reply 124):
And that was a huge mistake. But that's no reason to just let this one go in order to be "fair to both sides".

Mir
Enjoying the Kool Aid while our efforts in the Iraqi region get squashed & our soldiers killed because democrats are more concerned about winning an election, than working collectively to win the war on Terror & succeed in Iraq! Bi-partisanship is rare, however, when dealing with national security & our soldiers. What the dems are doing now, alienating a key ally & at key time is absolutely, off the rector scale outrageous!

No one said let it go. However, the timing couldn't be worse, nor could your hack, disingenuous attitude be as well!!!

Your a real swell guy Mir! ? ?   

[Edited 2007-10-15 19:58:06]

Quoting N229NW (Reply 48): I don't believe anyone anywhere should be either proud or ashamed based on what his/her ancestors did, only based on what he/she has done personally. But it is bulls**t to say that asking people to admit that something happened is punitive. You can enjoy the more positive parts of your history more if you don't whitewash or deny the bad sides.

Very well said.   

Quoting CALTECH (Reply 122): As we've noted, 70% of our Iraq supplies are shipped through our base in Incirlik, Turkey. So is more than a third of our fuel. To say we badly need Turkish cooperation is an understatemen

Quoting OU812 (Reply 123): They are making a conscious effort to thwart America's efforts in the region by angering an important ally in a very tense & strategic part of the world.

Glad to see the real modus operandi of die hard Bush cheerleaders. Appeasment anyone???

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 128): Glad to see the real modus operandi of die hard Bush cheerleaders. Appeasment anyone???

After reading that comment. It is obvious your judgement is severely lacking, not to mention your comment sense as well! Modus operandi? The only only criminals here are the politicians backing this outlandish bill purposed by some treason-ish politicians in Washington & hacks such as yourself. And, having Turkey as ally in is not appeasement. Hacks such as your self always say Bush has upset many of our allies, some also upset us too? However, it is partisan dems that are blatantly ruining this relationship, not Bush. Can't win with you guys! You're all over the map here! And your not being intellectually honest at all, which by the way is completely normal, but unfortunate! Especialy in this circumstance of national secruity.

Disappointing!

Quoting OU812 (Reply 129): After reading that comment. It is obvious your judgement is severely lacking, not to mention your comment sense as well! Modus operandi? The only only criminals here are the politicians backing this outlandish bill purposed by some treason-ish politicians in Washington & hacks such as yourself. And, having Turkey as ally in is not appeasement.

What school did you graduate from? Joseph Goebbels School of Propaganda? Dick Cheney should write you a check for such drivel.  
Anyway, the issue here is certainly not your own partisan bickering but the hysterical reaction of the Turkish government. True allies should be honest with each other and calling a spade a spade - espacially a spade they have supposedly nothing in common - should do no harm. Do Germans get pissed or deny the facts regarding the Nazis. No. Do Norwegians get all mad because of their Viking legacy. Not that I know of. Should we get pissed, recall ambassadors and pull all kinds of ridiculous sh*t should the US Congress, EU, Tuvalu or anyone else pass a resolution about all the evil crap that was happening here 1948-1989? Absolutely not.

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 5): my point....it was the ottomans....and the reason why turks care, which we really dont

Quoting Pilotaydin (Reply 5): but it was stupid for the US to do this, if it passes the next round, i can tell you as someone on the inside that the airbase will be shutting down in the south, which is gonna suck for operation Iraqi whatever you wanna call it

???

Isn't it a good example of a confused mind ?

Quoting OU812 (Reply 125): Total scumbags!

Would your comments apply here as well?

Quoting http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/article3064720.ece: US 'delayed' British withdrawal from Basra British forces were prevented from pulling out of their last base in Basra City for five months because the Americans refused to move their consulate, according to senior military sources. The US warned that a brigade of troops would be sent from Baghdad to take "appropriate action" to maintain security. The delay in withdrawal resulted in some of the fiercest fighting faced by British forces since the invasion of 2003, leading to the deaths of 25 British soldiers and injuries to 58 others, as well as dozens of Iraqi casualties. Two of the British dead were at the base, Basra Palace, while at least 10 others died in supporting operations.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 130): What school did you graduate from? Joseph Goebbels School of Propaganda? Dick Cheney should write you a check for such drivel. Anyway, the issue here is certainly not your own partisan bickering but the hysterical reaction of the Turkish government. True allies should be honest with each other and calling a spade a spade - espacially a spade they have supposedly nothing in common - should do no harm. Do Germans get pissed or deny the facts regarding the Nazis. No. Do Norwegians get all mad because of their Viking legacy. Not that I know of. Should we get pissed, recall ambassadors and pull all kinds of ridiculous sh*t should the US Congress, EU, Tuvalu or anyone else pass a resolution about all the evil crap that was happening here 1948-1989? Absolutely not.

Rubbish!
Did you see the US government during WWII go out of their way to condemn & publicly humiliate Britain for their many conquests, China's many woes, the REDS as well? No! We worked collectively to fight a greater enemy! There is a time and place for most anything. However, now is not the time to bring up this matter. The democrats efforts are nothing more than a desperate, callow attempt to stop, stall & reverse progressed made on the war on Terror. Because vicortry or seccess in Iraq & the war on Terror means death for the dems, since they have been so invested in defeat for years now.

Also,
Democrats had a majority in congress for 40 years prior to 94'. They had more than enough time to express their concerns then. Why they're bringing up this issue now, as we fight the war on Terror, while we're making very positive progress in Iraq proves once more that Democrats can't be trusted with national security!!! They are more concerned with scoring partisan political points than doing what's right for the nation as a whole!!


Where did you get your education? Don't tell me, you have a PhD in Bone-headism from the university of Move on . org!

  

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 128): Glad to see the real modus operandi of die hard Bush cheerleaders. Appeasement anyone???

Well picked, but the irony, L410T, is that even more trouble is nested away in Syria, not from the nasty Syrians, but from the 1.5 mill Iraqi refugees, who are not best pleased at a situation that has made them flee and even less pleased at being left in a worse than miserable situation by the invading forces.

All of the invading countries will repent this folly, not really at their leisure, but they will have plenty of time for regrets. Then again, it will be all the fault of the stupid refos, it always is.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 118): Saudi Arabia is crucial for America's interests in the Middle East - does that mean that congress should come out and say "oh no, everything is fine and dandy in the King of Saud, no human rights violations are going on whatsover." You (we) deal with them (both)or pragmatic reasons, which is fine - that does not mean you jave to ignore their wrongdoings, current (Saudi Arabia) or past (Turkey)

by your comparison, Turkey is THE tower of freedom, liberalism, modernism, and human rights, if compared with Saudi Arabia. The trouble with the KSA is not some particular issues, but the House of Sa'ud and its theocracy as such.
-

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 128): Glad to see the real modus operandi of die hard Bush cheerleaders. Appeasment anyone???

To compare the Republic of Turkey with Nazi Germany goes clearly too far
-

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 130): Do Germans get pissed or deny the facts regarding the Nazis

the Federal Republic of Germany accepted a MORAL obligation in regard to Nazi-Germany, but Nazi-Germany went out of business 4 years before West Germany and East Germany started. While Germans in general do neither deny nor belittle the deeds of the Nazis, many feel most seriously pissed if the topic is re-warmed at any possible moment.
-

Quoting Sebolino (Reply 131): Isn't it a good example of a confused mind ?

a "confused mind" ?? Not really, just people who feel that their loyalty is rewarded by ugly reminders of a past of before the present country. The services provided by Turkey have NOT brought them the results they expected. The financial reward promised in 1990/91 never came up and neither did the Turkish help since 2003 yield any positive result. And now this ! You see, Iraq is NOT part of NATO. The USA might use a flight corridor across Israel and Saudi Arabia of course, but up to now preferred to route its flights via Turkey.

Quoting Glydrflyr (Reply 106): The United States has already adopted two resolutions on this matter in years gone by. Once in the mid seventies, and again in 1995 during the Clinton administration, so the real question is, why do this again and why do it now?

Because both those resolutions went down to defeat.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 108): I don't really see them doing that, they are part of NATO for almost 60 years, unless they were to withdraw from NATO, which is totally out of the question.

Jeez Louis, get your facts straight willya.....Iraq is not a NATO operation. Turkey is under no obligation to help us in Iraq. If anything they are now feeling threatened by the autonomous Kurds in Iraq trying to help the separatist Kurds in Turkey.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 108): And if it is a Democratic party stratagem, I doubt it is, there are hundreds of ways the Dems could stall the war effort, they haven't tried anything intelligent yet,

Hundreds? But your statement that they haven't tried anything intelligent yet is true on several fronts.

Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 120): Quoting PA110 (Reply 29): Americans need to reconcile "Manifest Destiny" with the destruction of Native American civilization Japanese need to acknowledge their behavior during WW2, particularly in China and Southeast Asia. Turks need to acknowledge the genocide of Armenians during the Ottoman Period. and the world needs to acknowledge it stood by and did nothing during the Rwandan genocide. Correct.

All the people that dealt badly with the American Indians are dead. More than likely all the people who participated in the killing of Armenians during the Ottoman period are dead. What good does it do for people who had nothing to do with either of those situations to apologize?

Quoting OU812 (Reply 133): Did you see the US government during WWII go out of their way to condemn & publicly humiliate Britain for their many conquests, China's many woes, the REDS as well?

Bingo!! Yes you did see just this very thing. Worse still, that was a major part of Roosevelt's reasons for conspiring behind Churchill's back with Stalin.

Chester Wilmot, "Struggle for Europe" has a whole chapter about that very topic.
"Stalin's Greatest Victory" (Yalta) pages 628 to 659.

p654 "In his memoirs, Hull is quite frank about the President's purpose. "We had" he writes definite ideas with respect to the future of the British Colonial Empire, on which we differed with the British"".

There was a stated policy to follow the Atlantic charter with respect to the British Empire, but interestingly not what became Indonesia - go figure!

Quoting RJdxer (Reply 136): All the people that dealt badly with the American Indians are dead. More than likely all the people who participated in the killing of Armenians during the Ottoman period are dead. What good does it do for people who had nothing to do with either of those situations to apologize?

Even if they don't apologize, they could at the very least admit that it was genocide. I don't believe that reparitions are owed to Native Americans or to slave descendents, but we did at least recognize the hardships that they were forced to endure, and that it was wrong. Turkey would be well served to do the same.

-Mir

Quoting Baroque (Reply 137): Bingo!! Yes you did see just this very thing. Worse still, that was a major part of Roosevelt's reasons for conspiring behind Churchill's back with Stalin. Chester Wilmot, "Struggle for Europe" has a whole chapter about that very topic. "Stalin's Greatest Victory" (Yalta) pages 628 to 659. p654 "In his memoirs, Hull is quite frank about the President's purpose. "We had" he writes definite ideas with respect to the future of the British Colonial Empire, on which we differed with the British"". There was a stated policy to

Nice try Baroque, but that's a big swing & a miss!

And I would personally like to thank you proving my point, while disqualifying yours at the same time! All nations differ, as did many US & British generals in WWII. And, all industrial nations, as we speak, are doing things behind one another's back. They are not publicly & meaningfully doing what they can to destabilize their counterparts economy, population since that would hurt the world economy, because that would hurt theirs as well eventually. But, the dems actions are specifically aimed at doing just that on the small nation of Turkey! Because it will hurt US war efforts, GW & the US/world economy.

Using your own words, [if this book is fact or fiction], please note:

Conspire means to: To plan together secretly

If what you stated regarding Roosevelt is true, he did it clandestinely, to avoid upsetting an important ally-Britain! What the US dems are doing regarding Turkey, is publicly humiliating them at a crucial time during the Iraq war, when oil prices were already high, not to mention at the threshold of a pivotal election year. So, the difference is obvious for those who are not drinking the Kool Aid & intellectually honest!

Thanks again Baroque on this matter! You another swell guy!  

Quoting Mir (Reply 138): Even if they don't apologize, they could at the very least admit that it was genocide.

They seem to have a different view. Until that can be resolved to expect them to recognize anything is asking a bit much and I still maintain getting people who weren't even involved to admit to wrong doing is wrong in and of itself.

Quoting Mir (Reply 138): but we did at least recognize the hardships that they were forced to endure, and that it was wrong.

Why did we even bother with that? Anyone with a minute amount of intelligence could tell you holding slaves is wrong, as is wiping out entire populations of American Indians. All it was was a feel good resolution since no one involved in the recognition ever held slaves or killed Indians.

Quoting OU812 (Reply 139): Using your own words, [if this book is fact or fiction], please note: Conspire means to: To plan together secretly

Try reading a bit of history before you swing yourself clean off you feet.

Odd that you seem to think Hull's memoirs are a work of fiction. I just wonder what Hull were he alive would say about your views.

When Hull's successor Stettinius, arrived Stettinius issued public statements on his disagreements with British policy to the point where Churchill sent an outspoken cable to Roosevelt protesting. The particular issue there was Greece. While Winnie had some odd ideas about Greece, he was determined to stop it becoming communist. I would have thought that aim might have appealed to you even if it barely interested Stet.

Bloody hell, smilies have vanished again!!

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 128): Glad to see the real modus operandi of die hard Bush cheerleaders. Appeasment anyone???

Oh, you know who is and who is not a 'die-hard' Bush cheerleader ? This also happened back in the Clinton years, and President Clinton asked for it to be shelved, and House Speaker Hastert pulled it, socialist apologist.

The difference between this bill and the previous ones that were introduced, is the fact that this bill states the killings as genocide between 1915 and 1923. This goes to prove that whoever is behind this is trying to get Republic of Turkey pay the bill too..

I don't subscribe to some of the views that come from the Turkish and US sides :
- It was the Ottomans, not us: This is not valid. If this was the case Turkish citizens should not be worried about. They are citizens of Turkey,
- Turkey is a good ally and we need their support: I don't get this.. Why defend Turkey in these grounds, instead of saying 'Look there needs to be some research on this and this sure is not a job of politicians'.
- This will shoot the oil prices through the roof: The same thing happened in 2003; oil is more important than human lives. That's just wrong..

What I object the most is California dems getting on the high horse and deciding to send flowers to Armenians and give the finger to Turks. I'd say all the Turkish-Americans should move to Pelosi's district and boot her out of the office next elections. (Oh thanks to this move 'Gyro' will be renamed as 'Doner' in SFO)    )

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 143): - It was the Ottomans, not us: This is not valid. If this was the case Turkish citizens should not be worried about. They are citizens of Turkey,

-
It was the Ottoman Empire and not the Republic of Turkey. The Republic of Turkey is NOT a successor of the Empire and in fact for a year existed alongside the Empire. As the "Ottomans" however were predominantly Turks, it is a negative period of Turkish history nevertheless.
-

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 143): between 1915 and 1923

that of course is complete sh....., as it was before 1918. The Brits in fact took control over the Ottoman Empire in 1918/19 in practical terms, so that anything thelike would have been impossible. It clearly was between 1915 and 1917 .
-

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 144): Quoting Bahadir (Reply 143): between 1915 and 1923 that of course is complete sh....., as it was before 1918. The Brits in fact took control over the Ottoman Empire in 1918/19 in practical terms, so that anything thelike would have been impossible. It clearly was between 1915 and 1917 .

Tell it to the members of the House who supported this bill.

Quoting Bahadir (Reply 145): between 1915 and 1923 that of course is complete sh....., as it was before 1918. The Brits in fact took control over the Ottoman Empire in 1918/19 in practical terms, so that anything thelike would have been impossible. It clearly was between 1915 and 1917 . Tell it to the members of the House who supported this bill.

I do NOT have their E-addresses, and suppose it would not make sense as they have DONE their decision, but by stating -1923 they have become liars