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LAXspotter
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:59 am

Does it really matter if one believes in a god or not, the bigotry of believers is always looking to find out what someone believes in, and if that person doesnt have the same religious outlook on life, then theyre somehow "doomed". Why cant people be decent human beings, without the need of a religion to "guide" them, I see no corelation with morality and civility with Religion, I think one can have those two without the need of Religion or the belief in God.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" Samuel Johnson
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:01 am



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 192):
Why do you and a few others disrespect a Christian beliefs? Do you have something to say, for example, about reincarnation? Or you are just against the existence of God ?

It's hard to accord respect to a theory as completely and utterly unproven as that of "Christianity". I accord it the same level of respect as I accord the theory of the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. I respect your right to believe in such a theory, everyone is entitled to believe what they want, but do not expect "respect" for any blanket statement about the truth of such a theory. Simply claiming a thing to be true without the smallest shred of evidence does not make it true, no matter how hard you wish it were. I respect your right to believe, not the beliefs themselves.

Reincarnation is no sillier a theory than any other religious postulate. Why not ? But there is certainly no evidence for it. As a belief system it is a far nicer theory than "eternal damnation" - it offers a real chance for redemption in this life rather than in some mythical "afterlife". If I had to believe in anything, I would prefer to believe in reincarnation - but I don't.

As for God, well thus far I see no explicit scientific necessity for him to exist, nor do I have a gaping spiritual void in my psyche that requires a deity to fill. I have my smug self-satisfaction to keep me warm  Smile
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HAWK21M
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:33 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 105):
Makes sense, I see you're in the aircraft servicing dept

 biggrin 
I was refferring to Outside work
regds
MEL
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Banco
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 12:57 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 196):
Quoting Banco (Reply 194):

Because the Bible is, again, hopelessly contradictory, downright nasty in places, highly edited, changed, twisted, and often demonstrably false.

Because you say so? Since when are you an expert in Biblical texts to affirm that?

Because I say so? Certainly not. You could always do some research. Nor would I claim to be an expert, though as a matter of fact, I do know a fair bit about it. But I rather wonder whether Christians actually ever read their holy book sometimes. Even the first two books of Genesis contradict one another completely. Not a good start.
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TACAA320
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:26 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 203):
As for God, well thus far I see no explicit scientific necessity for him to exist, nor do I have a gaping spiritual void in my psyche that requires a deity to fill.

As I said at least thrice, God can only be accepted, understood, by faith. Not through science.

"Science can purify religion from error and superstition. Religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes."
Pope John Paul II



Quoting Banco (Reply 205):
You could always do some research.



Quoting Banco (Reply 205):
Nor would I claim to be an expert

Then why are you talking over and over about Bible "contradictions" and / or "errors" w/o a single argument ? [And don't come to me with "Noah's Ark" and / or Creationism vs. Evolution] They were discussed to death here zillions of times.Try to be original.

BTW. D you find the same "contradictions" and / or "errors" in other sacred Books [e.g. Koran, among some others] ? Or just The Holy Bible ?

Why are you avoiding some questions ? Like...

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 198):
if Mr. Banco there argued that executing felons in Texas was an uncivilized practice that ought to be banned, from where would he derive the moral authority to posit that without having anything resembling a belief system?


[Edited 2007-11-18 06:37:26]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
Banco
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:34 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 206):
Then why are you talking over and over about Bible "contradictions" w/o a single argument ? [And don't come to me with "Noah's Ark" and / or Creationism vs. Evolution] They were discussed to death here zillions of times.Try to be original.

I gave plenty of examples up the thread about the Gospels. Come back to me about them first.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 206):
Why are you not answering some questions ? Like...

Oh, be fair. I simply can't get to each and every point when there are so many.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 206):
if Mr. Banco there argued that executing felons in Texas was an uncivilized practice that ought to be banned, from where would he derive the moral authority to posit that without having anything resembling a belief system?

From us, of course. Why does it need to come from a spurious religious authority?
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
777236ER
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:53 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 198):
For instance (and this is just an example, not picking on anyone, OK?), if Mr. Banco there argued that executing felons in Texas was an uncivilized practice that ought to be banned, from where would he derive the moral authority to posit that without having anything resembling a belief system?

Rationalism, positivism or existentialism. You choose.

[Edited 2007-11-18 07:13:37]
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baroque
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:06 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 207):
From us, of course. Why does it need to come from a spurious religious authority?

I dare say that Banco (or perhaps even Banquo) could come up with a more consistent and appropriate set of moral guidelines than the sets that are enmeshed in current interpretations of material written down, largely from memory of what someone else had said and having morphed in most cases through a number of translations.

Go to it Banco.  thumbsup 

Well go to it after you have spent about 5 years answering some of the points that come back like a frisky ping pong ball.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:09 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 207):

I gave plenty of examples up the thread about the Gospels. Come back to me about them first.



Quoting Banco (Reply 207):

Oh, be fair. I simply can't get to each and every point when there are so many.

Lovely answers! I really never expected more than that.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 208):
Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 151):

If you're asking, it does.

I don't understand the need

Never mind.

Now I know the "basics" of the Spaghetti 'thing", the so called "spagnostics" [by the "Pastafarians"], and the wisdom behind such parody of religion.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 197):
"Bobby Henderson" redirects here. For other uses, see Bobby Henderson (disambiguation).
Niklas Jansson's adaptation of Michelangelo's The Creation of Adam depicts the Flying Spaghetti Monster in its typical guise as a clump of tangled spaghetti with two eyestalks, two meatballs, and many "noodly appendages".
Niklas Jansson's adaptation of Michelangelo's The Creation of Adam depicts the Flying Spaghetti Monster in its typical guise as a clump of tangled spaghetti with two eyestalks, two meatballs, and many "noodly appendages".

The Flying Spaghetti Monster (also known as the Spaghedeity) is the deity of a parody religion called The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and its system of beliefs, "Pastafarianism".The religion was founded in 2005 by Oregon State University physics graduate Bobby Henderson to protest the decision by the Kansas State Board of Education to require the teaching of intelligent design as an alternative to biological evolution.

In an open letter sent to the education board, Henderson professes belief in a supernatural creator called the Flying Spaghetti Monster which resembles spaghetti and meatballs. He furthermore calls for the "Pastafarian" theory of creation to be taught in science classrooms.

Due to its recent popularity and media exposure, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is used by atheists, agnostics (known by Pastafarians as "spagnostics"), and others as a modern version of Russell's teapot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

According to that, "atheist" is a synonym of "spagnostic".

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
777236ER
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:14 pm

The problem you have TACA is that you better hope that Banco finds significant flaws with the Bible. If he didn't that's evidence of the existance of God, which of course, precludes faith...
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Banco
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:17 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 210):
Lovely answers! I really never expected more than that.

Yet I note that in the case of comments about the gospels, you don't actually answer them.  scratchchin 

And you regard my missing a particular point as what, exactly? You've answered absolutely nothing, I've answered as much as I humanly can.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 209):
Well go to it after you have spent about 5 years answering some of the points that come back like a frisky ping pong ball.

Quite.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:46 pm



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 211):
The problem you have TACA is that you better hope that Banco finds significant flaws with the Bible.

Try me. And why don't you do the job for him?

Quoting Banco (Reply 212):
And you regard my missing a particular point as what, exactly? You've answered absolutely nothing, I've answered as much as I humanly can.

Re read reply 206. Once again...

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 206):
Do you find the same "contradictions" and / or "errors" in other sacred Books [e.g. Koran, among some others] ? Or just The Holy Bible ?

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 3:46 pm



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 73):
To me personally the idea of nothing after death is comforting. It forces me to do everything I have to do and I want to do whilst I'm alive. I wouldn't want to exist in a place where the 'rightous' - as defined by a being that has no qualms about destroying all humans on a planet save one family - live in luxury, whilst the damned, including many people I know, burn for eternity.

Does it also give you your sunny disposition and your uncanny ability to get along with and respect others?  Wow!
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
bok269
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:05 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 165):

Emirates 773ER Probably put it best. These are questions we really can't answer.

Quoting Banco (Reply 184):
Why?

To be honest, I don't think I can put the reason into words. To me, that is the essence of Faith itself.

Again, I couldn't care less about the beliefs of others. Why should anyone make it a point to question mine?

Peace all.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
Banco
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:06 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 213):
Re read reply 206. Once again...

I mentioned contradictions in the gospels at some length up the thread. Go and look for them.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
777236ER
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:18 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 213):
Try me. And why don't you do the job for him?

Didn't you read what I said? A cast-iron Bible that supports the physical evidence around us is evidence for the existance of God, which negates faith.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_consistency_of_the_Bible
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ctbarnes
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:46 pm



Quoting LAXspotter (Reply 202):
Does it really matter if one believes in a god or not, the bigotry of believers is always looking to find out what someone believes in, and if that person doesnt have the same religious outlook on life, then theyre somehow "doomed". Why cant people be decent human beings, without the need of a religion to "guide" them, I see no corelation with morality and civility with Religion, I think one can have those two without the need of Religion or the belief in God.

Let's not forget, however, that the bigotry of non-believers is just as odious.

Charles, SJ
The customer isn't a moron, she is your wife -David Ogilvy
 
TACAA320
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:40 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 216):

I mentioned contradictions in the gospels at some length up the thread. Go and look for them.

Do it yourself.
Idon't see a single one.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 217):
A cast-iron Bible that supports the physical evidence around us is evidence for the existance[sic] of God, which negates faith.

Like a cast-iron science that support, without a single doubt, for example the "Big Bang" ?

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 211):
which of course, precludes faith...

How can "preclude" faith?
Hebrews 11:1
Faith

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"(Heb. 11:1, NIV).
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 5:41 pm

To answer TACA's question, I'll look at Genesis, which, by the way, is thought to have been written by at least four different sources. Genesis 1:1 through 2:4 give the more well-known account of the formation of the universe. In this one, God makes everything in six days, making, in order, light vs. dark, the sky, dry land and plants, celestial bodies, birds and fish, and land animals and people. Then God observes a day of rest. This account comes from what is called the Priestly source, written when the Jewish priestly class had come to power. Notice how the Jewish practice of observing a day of rest every seven days has been legitimized by attributing the same behavior to God. Also notice that this story makes no mention of Adam and Eve. God "created humankind in his image,... male and female he created them." God creates multiple humans at once, and makes both males and females.

Contrast this with Genesis 2:4 through 3:24, the Garden of Eden story. In this account, which comes from the so-called Jahwist source (older than the Priestly source), God makes the earth and heavens first, then a single male human, then the Garden of Eden. After this, God makes each animal as a potential companion for Adam, culminating in the formation of Eve as the first woman. This text does not mention how long the creation takes, and it obviously uses a different ordering than the first text (notably, man was made before the animals, rather than after). It also portrays a less-than-omnipotent/omniscient God, who has to come up with Adam's companion by trial and error, and who has to actively search for Adam when he hides in the Garden, rather than knowing where he is.

The two texts are clearly contradictory.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:08 pm



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 220):
To answer TACA's question, I'll look at Genesis, which, by the way, is thought to have been written by at least four different sources. Genesis 1:1 through 2:4 give the more well-known account of the formation of the universe. In this one, God makes everything in six days, making, in order, light vs. dark, the sky, dry land and plants, celestial bodies, birds and fish, and land animals and people. Then God observes a day of rest. This account comes from what is called the Priestly source, written when the Jewish priestly class had come to power. Notice how the Jewish practice of observing a day of rest every seven days has been legitimized by attributing the same behavior to God. Also notice that this story makes no mention of Adam and Eve. God "created humankind in his image,... male and female he created them." God creates multiple humans at once, and makes both males and females.

Contrast this with Genesis 2:4 through 3:24, the Garden of Eden story. In this account, which comes from the so-called Jahwist source (older than the Priestly source), God makes the earth and heavens first, then a single male human, then the Garden of Eden. After this, God makes each animal as a potential companion for Adam, culminating in the formation of Eve as the first woman. This text does not mention how long the creation takes, and it obviously uses a different ordering than the first text (notably, man was made before the animals, rather than after). It also portrays a less-than-omnipotent/omniscient God, who has to come up with Adam's companion by trial and error, and who has to actively search for Adam when he hides in the Garden, rather than knowing where he is.

The two texts are clearly contradictory.

They seems to be contradictory to you. But if you are really interested in this topic, you can find a lot of exegetical documents, that explain Genesis. Just to mention one:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04470a.htm [specially points III and IV].

BTW, do you see contradictions in other sacred texts of Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, and Islam.? Or just in The Holy Bible ? I already ask that but only got evasive answers.

Please show me some.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
luv2fly
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:13 pm

No for me as well, though I guess time will tell, though then I will not be able to tell others!
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
Dougloid
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:32 pm



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 208):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 198):
For instance (and this is just an example, not picking on anyone, OK?), if Mr. Banco there argued that executing felons in Texas was an uncivilized practice that ought to be banned, from where would he derive the moral authority to posit that without having anything resembling a belief system?

Rationalism, positivism or existentialism. You choose.

It could also be any one of a number of systems of ethics (although parenthetically, existentialism is a crock of shit that's of interest only to college students who have to slog their way through yet another boring intro to philosophy class, and the profs who teach it. If it wasn't for college classes Sartre, Kierkegaard, Nietzsche, and all the rest of the philosophy crowd would smell as bad as last week's salmon with their damned infernal palaver.)

But that doesn't really get to the point I'm making. If it's all a construct, i.e., a bunch of misfiring neurons inside a 4 pound mass of grey tissue, a fortiori there is no moral authority I'm bound to respect, and there's no way you can compel my consensus, save out of fear. And that negates any pseudophilosophical moral authority you can name.

How d'ya like them apples? Not bad for a superannuated mechanic if I do say so myself.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Yellowstone
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:55 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 221):
BTW, do you see contradictions in other sacred texts of Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Confucianism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, and Islam.? Or just in The Holy Bible ? I already ask that but only got evasive answers.

Of course there are. I'm just more familiar with the Bible. And I'm not arguing that the Bible doesn't teach us some important lessons. To me, the fact that the Bible is not entirely self-consistent when read literally doesn't mean that we should toss out the whole Book, only that we shouldn't read it literally.
Hydrogen is an odorless, colorless gas which, given enough time, turns into people.
 
777236ER
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:00 pm



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 223):

But that doesn't really get to the point I'm making. If it's all a construct, i.e., a bunch of misfiring neurons inside a 4 pound mass of grey tissue, a fortiori there is no moral authority I'm bound to respect, and there's no way you can compel my consensus, save out of fear. And that negates any pseudophilosophical moral authority you can name.

How d'ya like them apples? Not bad for a superannuated mechanic if I do say so myself.

Let the latin battle commence! Vis legis comes from two things, social forces and evolutionary forces. It's in the interest of the species that murder, rape etc are deemed wrong. There doesn't have to be a concensus on moral issues (and indeed there isn't, even amongst religious community). All you need is a majority. Look at how laws and what is deemed 'moral' has changed over the years. It doesn't take visio dei to come up with morality, and human morality has changed over the last 2000 years.
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duke
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:18 pm

I was an atheist until I was 12. Then I was religious (an Orthodox Christian) for 15 years. This year, I left the faith after reexamining my reasons for believing and finding they were unsound. At present I would consider myself an agnostic. Maybe there is no god or anything else supernatural, and everything wonderful in the world is, despite what some people say, simply the product of science and evolution. That is the view of Prof. Richard Dawkins, whose bestseller, The God Delusion, I found to be a good read (see more on www.richarddawkins.net) Or perhaps, there is a deity, or some kind of creative force we cannot begin to imagine. But if we talk specifically about Christianity, I now think it's a big lie-delusion.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:34 pm



Quoting Duke (Reply 226):
That is the view of Prof. Richard Dawkins, whose bestseller, The God Delusion, I found to be a good read

I bought a copy yesterday - looking forward to it. Preaching to the choir, I guess, but it seems like an interesting work.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Banco
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:52 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 227):
I bought a copy yesterday - looking forward to it. Preaching to the choir, I guess, but it seems like an interesting work.

Yes, but don't stop there. There are lots of interesting works out there. Robin Lane Fox's The Unauthorised Version is a fascinating historical analysis of the Bible - and with a neutral perspective too.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:58 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 228):
Robin Lane Fox's The Unauthorised Version is a fascinating historical analysis of the Bible - and with a neutral perspective too.

That would be interesting - Biblical history is a fascinating study by itself - how such an historically influential document was manipulated very cynically to the ends of the political powers using it to justify their actions. I might go and look for that on Amazon.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Banco
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:09 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 229):
That would be interesting - Biblical history is a fascinating study by itself - how such an historically influential document was manipulated very cynically to the ends of the political powers using it to justify their actions. I might go and look for that on Amazon.

No, it doesn't really go into the manipulation of the text that much, though it does briefly touch on the complete absence of any justification for original sin within the documents themselves. But it is concerned with how known history agrees or disagrees with Bibilical history, and with the history of the writing itself.

And the Bible is quite possibly the most influential book of all time, so well worth study. And on a purely personal level, I find the beauty of the the King James Version and the Tyndale Bible on which it's based something marvellous in its own right. The English in it has rarely been bettered for elegance and sheer stunning quality.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
bezoar
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:13 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 194):
Because the Bible is, again, hopelessly contradictory, downright nasty in places, highly edited, changed, twisted, and often demonstrably false. Next.



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 203):
It's hard to accord respect to a theory as completely and utterly unproven as that of "Christianity".



Quoting Yellowstone (Reply 220):
The two texts are clearly contradictory.

Yes, the Bible is unproven, except for all the prophecies that have come to pass, including that of Christ. It's unproven, except for the many truths that transformed the western world. It's unproven, except for the many historical references that have been - and continue to be - corroborated by archaeology and other research. Scholars have generally accepted that Jesus lived, even those who don't accept Him as Christ.

If one accepts that a sovereign God created the universe and breathed life into non-life, it isn't much of a stretch to think that God could inspire men to act according to His will.

The Bible is full history, songs, poetry, allegories, and more. It was originally written in three languages by over 40 authors over period of 1500 years. Parts of the New Testament were written with different groups in mind (gentiles, Jews, Greeks, etc. One must read it in light of these well-documented realities.

Clearly, if you take the entire Bible literally, you rapidly come to many misunderstandings and also miss the richness of what's there. Jesus spoke in parables because such stories have many layers of truth for many people. The "Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil?" C'mon, folks. We're talking figurative language! This part of the creation story reveals that we once had an innocent relationship with God, but that it was broken when we chose to be disobedient, by putting our will before His. Sound familiar? It also shows that though there are consequences of such behavior on our part, He still loves us and will provide for us.

The rest of the Bible tells how our punishment can be lifted and our relationship with God repaired, in other words - redeemed. And it isn't anything that we do, but what God does. The Bible also describes how we mess things up and how flawed we are. The Old Testament gives the bad news and a promise, and the New Testament gives the Good News revealed, the "Gospel."

Quoting Banco (Reply 193):
Because science doesn't presume the end point and try to justify it.

Perhaps science doesn't, but man certainly does. Who is it that uses science? Man does, of course. There is no way to completely separate man's objectives (and subjectives) from the scientific process, in particular the interpretation of its findings.

Just like George Wald's quote (in post #170), he believes in something that science and logic would otherwise have him deny. Why? Because he so badly wanted to believe what he believed before the science was done.

Peace,

Bezoar
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:13 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 230):
I find the beauty of the the King James Version and the Tyndale Bible on which it's based something marvellous in its own right.

That's true. The language in the King James Bible is wonderful, showing the full power of just-post-Shakespearean English. It's possible that the translation itself was not perfect, the language used in the translation is beautiful.

I'm not familiar with the Tyndale Bible (is this the one published in English before the King James Bible ? I seem to recall an English bible being published and the publisher being executed - or am I thinking of something else ?
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Banco
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Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 11:56 pm

RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:20 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 232):
I'm not familiar with the Tyndale Bible (is this the one published in English before the King James Bible ? I seem to recall an English bible being published and the publisher being executed - or am I thinking of something else ?

No, that's the one. The King James version used much of it as its base - around half of the total. Most of the everyday phrases we use from the King James Version were actually coined in the Tyndale Bible.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:25 pm

Quoting Banco (Reply 233):
Most of the everyday phrases we use from the King James Version were actually coined in the Tyndale Bible.

But the Tyndale Bible would be 50 years before the King James Bible, or thereabouts ? I haven't looked it up. I'm no linguist, but that particular period was particularly important in the development and standardisation of written English, with printed material of all kinds becoming available, and the work of the Elizabethan playwrights and poets. This would mean that the Tyndale text would hark back to a more archaic form ? Interesting to see how much difference there is in expression between the Tyndale text and the text developed specifically for the Authorized version.

Edit - I just looked it up. Tyndale published his first version of the New Testament in English, in Germany in 1525 - that was almost 100 years before the Authorized Version was printed (1611). This would explain why a lot of the King James language is not as "Shakespearean" in form as it might have been.

[Edited 2007-11-18 13:31:56]
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Banco
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:36 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 234):
But the Tyndale Bible would be 50 years before the King James Bible, or thereabouts ? I haven't looked it up. I'm no linguist, but that particular period was particularly important in the development and standardisation of written English, with printed material of all kinds becoming available, and the work of the Elizabethan playwrights and poets. This would mean that the Tyndale text would hark back to a more archaic form ? Interesting to see how much difference there is in expression between the Tyndale text and the text developed specifically for the Authorized version.

A bit more than that, I think. But Tyndale's writing was important for being genuinely in English. If memory serves, he was heavily criticised for some of his translations, but his work undoubtedly did have a huge impact on written English of the future. Most importantly, Tyndale was determined to write in the vernacular of the day, so that it could be understood by all.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:43 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 235):
Most importantly, Tyndale was determined to write in the vernacular of the day, so that it could be understood by all.

That's the most important aspect. But wasn't there an earlier translation though, by Wycliffe ?
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SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:53 pm

Yes I do.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
777236ER
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:58 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 236):
But wasn't there an earlier translation though, by Wycliffe ?

Your bone's got a little machine
 
Banco
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:58 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 236):
But wasn't there an earlier translation though, by Wycliffe ?

Yes, but I think Wycliffe's Bible was a word for word translation of either the Greek or the Hebrew, I can't remember which, and so a lot of it didn't actually make much sense. It was because it was felt to be the word of God and therefore a translation couldn't change any of it.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:01 pm



Quoting Banco (Reply 239):
and so a lot of it didn't actually make much sense

Unlike all the other versions, which are logical lucidity throughout  Smile
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luisca
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 10:08 pm

Yes, there are just moments out there, when you see the horizon in all its beauty, when see how perfect a human body is, even the tinniest cell is so incomprehensibly complicated and fragile, yet it works perfectly, there has to be a God out there, that is my personal view.

I also believe in science, and believe the two can go hand in hand and believing in one should not make you automatically have to believe in the other one.
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
Dougloid
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:31 pm



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 225):
Let the latin battle commence! Vis legis comes from two things, social forces and evolutionary forces. It's in the interest of the species that murder, rape etc are deemed wrong. There doesn't have to be a concensus on moral issues (and indeed there isn't, even amongst religious community). All you need is a majority. Look at how laws and what is deemed 'moral' has changed over the years. It doesn't take visio dei to come up with morality, and human morality has changed over the last 2000 years.

Well, I had two years of it back in the day and I'm none the worse for it I can tell you. Sum, es, est and all that sort of palaver.

You still haven't answered the basic question I propounded.

First someone offered, I dunno, existentialism and a couple other philosophies from Baskin Robbins 31 flavors there. To which I answered, that doesn't explain anything. You, my young friend, are offering "social forces and evolutionary forces", whatever those concepts are or appear to be to a few people. All you've offered is fear of retribution all done up nice and pretty.

If, as you say, it's a societal construct only and a majority of what the people are thinking, going back to my example, what gives the European community the notion that they ought to be able to tell the people of Texas, for instance, why executing felons is a bad thing? It's not their business, weighed by your standard.

Taking it a little farther, how can any of us say with any assurance that the janjaweed militias are off base in their genocidal campaign against the people of Darfur who ain't the same race as them?

I'm off to dinner now.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Falcon84
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:44 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 203):

Then, in turn, why should I have any respect for someone who completely denies what 95% of the world believes in, namely a Supreme Being? To paraphrase Matthew McConnaughy in "Contact", "I can't support the views of someone who thinks that 95% of the world is crazy."

It isn't theory to us, JGPH1A, it's called FAITH. You need something solid to make you believe in anything, it seems, and you have little faith in anything. The Disciple Thomas was the same way, not believing Christ had risen until he touched the wounds in the hand of the Holy Spirit. Yet for others, like Mary Magdaline, she was filled with a faith-a conviction, if you will, without being given physical proof. That's what faith in God is-a belief in something larger than yourself, something that makes life, and what lies beyond it, worth the struggle and the effort.

I will not begrudge you your belief. I think you're wrong. But simply to say you hold no respect for someone because they believe and you do not, is a callous, self-centered view, one which I do not share. Nor will I ever share it. My only regret is when we have both left this earth, I can't find you afterwards, when we're both in an afterlife and say "see, we were right, and you were dead wrong"  Smile
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Sun Nov 18, 2007 11:56 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 243):
My only regret is when we have both left this earth, I can't find you afterwards, when we're both in an afterlife and say "see, we were right, and you were dead wrong"

Looks like all the fatwa's JP gave out will be coming back to bite him in the ass!  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
Banco
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:01 am



Quoting Dougloid (Reply 242):
going back to my example, what gives the European community the notion that they ought to be able to tell the people of Texas, for instance, why executing felons is a bad thing? It's not their business, weighed by your standard.

I'm not sure I really get your point on that. Surely it's a simple we think we're right, you think we're wrong (or vice versa) equation? It's not a hard and fast matter, it's a question of opinion.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 243):
it's called FAITH.

Yes it is. The belief in something despite the total absence of any evidence in it.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 243):
The Disciple Thomas was the same way

Was he now? Did he exist? Did he ever meet Christ? Did Christ himself ever exist for that matter? All you have for that is a rather questionable source.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 243):
Yet for others, like Mary Magdaline

Ah, yes. Mary Magdelene. Supposedly a prostitute, yet the Coptic gospels suggest anything but.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 243):
But simply to say you hold no respect for someone because they believe and you do not, is a callous, self-centered view,

Really. Say I believe in leprechauns, would you have respect for that belief? I rather doubt it. Do you respect the cargo cults? Do you respect the belief that the world is carried on the back of a giant turtle? Your religion is grounded in nothing more than any of those.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 243):
My only regret is when we have both left this earth, I can't find you afterwards, when we're both in an afterlife and say "see, we were right, and you were dead wrong"

See that's when it starts getting scary. Absolute certainty of belief without the slightest means of support.
She's as nervous as a very small nun at a penguin shoot.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:10 am



Quoting Banco (Reply 245):
Was he now? Did he exist? Did he ever meet Christ? Did Christ himself ever exist for that matter? All you have for that is a rather questionable source.

Now you're reaching. It is a fact that Jesus was an actual man, an historical figure. Yes, he existed. As did Mohammed, as did Moses and Abraham. They are historical figures. And, yes, I believe that Thomas existed, as did Saint Paul, Saint Peter, Saint John, and all the disciples. I could ask you now, since neither of us were there, about the existence of Shakespere, could I not? All we have that he existed was history. Well, then I guess since you weren't there, my friend, you cannot believe in HIS existence either.  Yeah sure

Quoting Banco (Reply 245):
Absolute certainty of belief without the slightest means of support.

You seem to believe Jesus didn't exist, without the slightest means of support. As for death, we have no means to support our beliefs until we're gone, so it's a moot point, isn't it?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
Springbok747
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:44 am



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 120):
If life is amazing, afterlife is even more amazing for true believers.

Um.. is that the part where the huge mothership comes and takes away all the "believers" to the land of milk and honey? So if afterlife is more amazing, then everyone who believes should be committing suicide to get to the afterlife shouldn't they...because lets face it, this life sucks.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 192):
That's why Jesus Christ died and resurrected. To save us. That's why we will not be afraid for those who kill the body but for those who kill the spirit.

I really need to ask believers about this as its been puzzling me...what's the big deal about Jesus dying? I mean, he came back to life a few days later, didn't he? And, being omnipotent, he can apparently transition back and forth from being alive to dead whenever he wants, so his death was not any sort of sacrifice whatsoever.

He did, however, allow himself to die in an unpleasant away, enduring some moderate amount of torture or pain for a few days. But I think it was a far easier death than a lot of cancer or AIDS sufferers face, but still, it was something. So I guess "Christ suffered briefly for your sins, died and resurrected" is more accurate, but I guess this slogan wouldn't be all that great a selling point for Christianity.

Also it seems to me that God has an anger problem, and so he has to sacrifice his own offspring to appease himself so that he doesn't have to torture people he created forever in hell. So, Jesus has to die on the Cross for your sins, but then he's resurrected, so he's not really dead.

We (humans) like to think of ourselves as special. The idea that we will die and simply cease to exist is a scary thought, and difficult to comprehend. We want to think that this planet is more than a speck of dust in the universe among billions of other planets where there may be billions of life forms more advanced that us. We like to think of ourselves as above the animals and that somehow this planet is special, that we are special. I think its all a big joke...we're not special, we're nothing. Religion and God were created by humans to control others.
That's what I believe...but then again who cares what I believe, I'm just a non-believer who is going to burn in hell  Yeah sure
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baroque
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:47 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 227):
I bought a copy yesterday - looking forward to it. Preaching to the choir, I guess, but it seems like an interesting work.

Also worth reading on the subject of Gerinoil - a rather powerful and dangerous drug it seems.

http://www.vermario.com/home/2005/10/gerinoil,-most-powerful-drug-ever
 
bezoar
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:59 am



Quoting Banco (Reply 245):
Surely it's a simple we think we're right, you think we're wrong (or vice versa) equation? It's not a hard and fast matter, it's a question of opinion.

There are some rather ugly consequences to postulating that truth & goodness is all relative. One has no reference point by which to determine 'the right' thing to do.

If it's all relative, it's also all good, or at least potentially so. One has no way to decide that one person is more right than another, except perhaps deciding that 'might is right.' It's ultimately a model for anarchy.

Even if you postulate that there is a 'collective consciousness' that provides guidance, this collectiveness could not be perfect, and never will be. It seems to me to be just another name for a majority.

In that vein I'm rather doubtful that the democratic process is really all that great, even if it is one of the better forms of governance we have. The majority can too easily be rather amoral, and an argument can be made that this is already happening.

I guarantee that absolute truth isn't something that we will arrive at on our own. When people say that religion was created to pacify the masses, even if its said cynically, there's some truth there. The alternative could be really ugly.
"There are none so blind as those who will not see."
 
Dougloid
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:10 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 246):
Now you're reaching. It is a fact that Jesus was an actual man, an historical figure. Yes, he existed. As did Mohammed, as did Moses and Abraham. They are historical figures. And, yes, I believe that Thomas existed, as did Saint Paul, Saint Peter, Saint John, and all the disciples. I could ask you now, since neither of us were there, about the existence of Shakespere, could I not? All we have that he existed was history. Well, then I guess since you weren't there, my friend, you cannot believe in HIS existence either.

Quoting Banco (Reply 245):
Absolute certainty of belief without the slightest means of support.

You seem to believe Jesus didn't exist, without the slightest means of support. As for death, we have no means to support our beliefs until we're gone, so it's a moot point, isn't it?

It's a matter of historic record as anyone familiar with the writings of Flavius Josephus can tell you. It's about as contemporary a written record as we're ever likely to see, written by an educated and erudite man who grew up in Israel around the time of Christ and was himself a Jew. Josephus fought in the rebellion against Roman despotism and eventually decided he'd rather be a live scribe than a dead hero as his mates at Masada were.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
Dougloid
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RE: Do You Believe In God?

Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:21 am



Quoting Banco (Reply 245):
Quoting Dougloid (Reply 242):
going back to my example, what gives the European community the notion that they ought to be able to tell the people of Texas, for instance, why executing felons is a bad thing? It's not their business, weighed by your standard.

I'm not sure I really get your point on that. Surely it's a simple we think we're right, you think we're wrong (or vice versa) equation? It's not a hard and fast matter, it's a question of opinion.

Well, if it's only a question of opinion, what's all the palaver about?


If it's "only an opinion" it is of no force and effect as far as I'm concerned and I'm inclined to ignore it, all opinions being of equal value.

On the other hand, if you, not being a person with any religious belief that you care to identify, are going to argue for the rule of law, the sanctity of human life and the necessity of finding peaceful means of resolving our disputes with each other, absent some moral principle with force how are you going to accomplish it?

I must do a little reading on social contract theory a la Hobbes and Rousseau, because that's clearly where we get law and order.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
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