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A346Dude
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:24 am



Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 43):
My point is that very few, if any, people booking a cruise like this are aware that there are very small chances to be rescued in the Antarctic if anything goes wrong

Um, how do you know that? I think most people can figure out that a trip to Antarctica is inherently more risky than a trip to Disneyworld. Doesn't mean they shouldn't go.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
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Scooter01
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:50 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 50):
Um, how do you know that?

Well, -let's see.. It took 4 hours before another cruise-ship -not a dedicated SAR group, came to assistance.

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 50):
Doesn't mean they shouldn't go.

Of course anyone should go -it would be the trip of the lifetime for any of us to experience the Antarctic.
-Just be aware that it is not like your average Caribbean or Norwegian fjord-cruise.

Scooter01
There is always a good reason to watch airplanes
 
A346Dude
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:00 am



Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 51):
Well, -let's see.. It took 4 hours before another cruise-ship -not a dedicated SAR group, came to assistance.

I meant, how do you know that most people booking a cruise like this are unaware of the risks of traveling to Antartica.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
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Scooter01
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:28 am

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 52):
I meant, how do you know that most people booking a cruise like this are unaware of the risks of traveling to Antartica.
You wouldn't see this kind of photos in a travel-brochure, would you?
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/ExplorerSinks.doc

My own knowledge of this is based upon what I have read from experienced polar travellers that have gotten "wet" between the ice-floes on more than one occasion and lived to tell about it

-And please note that the aircraft where the photographer was aboard, apparently could not render any assistance either.
and also that the Antarctic area is mostly populated by small, scientific outposts -hardly equipped to receive a shipload of stranded tourists.

Scooter01

[Edited 2007-11-25 19:41:23]
There is always a good reason to watch airplanes
 
A346Dude
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:38 am



Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 53):
You wouldn't see this kind of photos in a travel-brochure, would you?
http://icecap.us/images/uploads/ExplorerSinks.doc

My own knowledge of this is based upon what I have read from experienced polar travellers that have gotten "wet" between the ice-floes on more than one occasion and lived to tell about it

-And please note that the aircraft where the photographer was aboard, apparently could not render any assistane either.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I just think you should give the travellers more credit. I suspect most of them realized that if anything went wrong, help would be a long time coming if it came at all.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
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stasisLAX
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Mon Nov 26, 2007 3:59 am



Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 47):
Seems like the extreme cold weather had something to do with the Accident. Al Gore is not going to be happy with this

 checkmark  Big Al will have a  hissyfit 
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L-188
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Mon Nov 26, 2007 5:38 am



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 13):
Recently, the M/V Aurora, an Alaska Ferry, holed herself on a rock - a rather substantial hole in fact - and was back in service in 90 days.

The LeConte was the one that put herself up on the beach a couple of years ago. What kept her from going down was the fact she was on the beach.

But I think at least three other vessels, Columbia, Malispina and Taku have also ended up on the rocks.

Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 31):
Put simply, a "fist sized hole" should not sink a vessel of that size

Agreed. You are only going to get so much flow through that sized of hole. Even it it hit right on a bulkhead and comprimised 2 compartments, that still shouldn't be enough to bring her down.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 33):
As I stated above, if the ship lacked a qualified repair party, and had compromised watertight integrity, it could indeed be sunk by a fist sized hole.

I agree something else had to be going on, but that is still way to small of a hole to sink a boat in normal circumstances.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 36):
, but I think it was appropriate of the crew to prioritise the saving of the souls on board over the ship.

Very appropriate, but I do question not attempting to save the vessel.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 47):
Last month, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign’s Polar Research Group indicated the southern hemisphere’s sea ice area reached 16.17 million square kilometers, narrowly breaking the old record of 16.03 million square kilometers. The record data goes back to 1979.

I thought we where loosing ice due to global warming????

Quoting A346Dude (Reply 50):
I think most people can figure out that a trip to Antarctica is inherently more risky than a trip to Disneyworld.

Wanna bet?
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:07 am

Just out of curiosity, but did the Explorer have any sister-ships? Different ships built to the same blueprints?
If so, perhaps they could be use to help determine why the Explorer went down like she did.
Regards.
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MD11Engineer
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Mon Nov 26, 2007 7:52 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 56):
Quoting BilgeRat (Reply 31):
Put simply, a "fist sized hole" should not sink a vessel of that size

Agreed. You are only going to get so much flow through that sized of hole. Even it it hit right on a bulkhead and comprimised 2 compartments, that still shouldn't be enough to bring her down.

The problem rather seems to be that there was no backup system to power the bilge pumps once electricity cut out. One solution might be to have portable diesel powered pumps on board like those used for firefighting or a portable diesel powered generator to drive one or several submerged pumps.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/75/Tragkraftspritze.jpg
This is a common portable fire pump used by village voluntary fire fighting units in Germany, a Tragkraftspritze 8/8 (800 Liters per minute, 8 bars pressure).

Jan
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AverageUser
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:39 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 56):
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 36):
, but I think it was appropriate of the crew to prioritise the saving of the souls on board over the ship.

Very appropriate, but I do question not attempting to save the vessel.

Ok, so we need a fast-response Antarctica tugboat, personnel to perform the towing operation to a suitable Antarctica port where the repairs will be carried out, very preferably on a dry dock. And of course even before that we need a MAJOR pumping operation to stablize the ship. Hopefully the sea will be calm throughout...

One possible way could have been to drive/tow the ship "as is" onto sheltered shallow waters and let it sink there, and buy time that way.
 
halls120
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Mon Nov 26, 2007 10:58 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 58):
The problem rather seems to be that there was no backup system to power the bilge pumps once electricity cut out. One solution might be to have portable diesel powered pumps on board like those used for firefighting or a portable diesel powered generator to drive one or several submerged pumps.

yes, if the crew had access to independently powered pumps, it might have saved the ship.

however, the fundamental fact remains that the ship's watertight integrity was obviously compromised. Modern ships are designed to stay afloat as long as flooding is contained to a given number of compartments (depending on the size and design of the ship.) That this vessel sank after receiving such slight damage indicates that the either 1) the crew didn't know how to put the ship into the proper emergency damage control settings (close all watertight doors and hatches) or 2) the ship had no watertight integrity - holes drilled for cable runs through the WT bulkheads not properly stuffed, for example.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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c172akula
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Mon Nov 26, 2007 2:43 pm



Quoting RayChuang (Reply 32):
Did you buy your cruise by credit card or buy travel insurance for the trip? If you bought the trip by credit card IMMEDIATELY contact the company that issued your credit card and tell them what's going on; they can work to get a refund because this is a very unusual circumstance that prevented your trip from happening.

You bet I had full insurance on this upcoming trip. From what I have heard over the weekend GAP has been very good with regards to issuing full refunds anyways, as this does constitue breach of the contract.

As well my wife and I were both VERY aware of the risks associated with making this trip. This will not stop us and I am trying to find us passage on another ship so we can still make the trip. This will be the 7th continent for my wife and I'll be damned if I don't do everything to try and help her finish that goal!
 
L-188
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:02 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 58):
The problem rather seems to be that there was no backup system to power the bilge pumps once electricity cut out. One solution might be to have portable diesel powered pumps on board like those used for firefighting or a portable diesel powered generator to drive one or several submerged pumps

That's the sad part, it is very possible that a $250 dollar portable pump with a length of hose might have prevented the loss of the vessel.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 60):
That this vessel sank after receiving such slight damage indicates that the either 1) the crew didn't know how to put the ship into the proper emergency damage control settings (close all watertight doors and hatches) or 2) the ship had no watertight integrity - holes drilled for cable runs through the WT bulkheads not properly stuffed, for example.

Agree completely.
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jamincan
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:13 am



Quoting A346Dude (Reply 50):

Um, how do you know that? I think most people can figure out that a trip to Antarctica is inherently more risky than a trip to Disneyworld. Doesn't mean they shouldn't go.

I wouldn't be so sure. There are a load of factors that affect 'riskiness', and generally the number of people around you is an important one. I would agree that most perceive that it is more risky.

It amazes me how quickly Airliners.net is able to diagnose a problem and find a solution in such a quick time. Perhaps the NTSB and other related institutions could learn something from this board.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:39 pm

Quoting L-188 (Reply 56):
The LeConte was the one that put herself up on the beach a couple of years ago. What kept her from going down was the fact she was on the beach.

No, LeConte hit a rock going in to Sitka in 2004 and holed herself - wedged tight on the rock in the middle of the bay.

http://www.marinelink.com/Story/Alaska+Ferry+Runs+Aground-14397.html

Taku is the one that grounded herself on a beach . . . several years ago . . . going in to Prince Rupert.

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y60...mpep/MISCELLANEOUS/TakuAground.jpg

Quoting L-188 (Reply 56):
But I think at least three other vessels, Columbia, Malispina and Taku have also ended up on the rocks.

Malaspina ran aground within weeks of her initial cruise, requiring all her keel plates to be replaced.

Taku: See above.

Columbia struck a rock in Peril Straight some years ago and required new keel plating just aft of the bow.

Matanuska, Wickersham, Aurora, Bartlett, Chilkat, Trusty Tusty and the two new wastes of $$$ have never grounded.

[Edited 2007-11-27 09:05:24]
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WrenchBender
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:51 pm



Quoting Jamincan (Reply 63):
It amazes me how quickly Airliners.net is able to diagnose a problem and find a solution in such a quick time. Perhaps the NTSB and other related institutions could learn something from this board.

Look at the background of the members of A.Net, everything seems to be represented including coast guard, navy, army, air force, etc and from multiple countries.

I have to agree with several of the above posters and am disappointed that the crew were not able to deal with a 'relatively minor' damage control issue.

WrenchBender
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AverageUser
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Tue Nov 27, 2007 10:21 pm



Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 65):
have to agree with several of the above posters and am disappointed that the crew were not able to deal with a 'relatively minor' damage control issue.

The Lloyds's register (subscribed-to content) has it that the initial damage was at Cabin 314 and water was seen to enter the separator room soon afterwards. As this room is adjacent to the engine room, it seems possible to me the water-tight doors failed to function because of the controls being located there. The captain and the chief officer remained on board after the evacuation of the rest of the crew, and the passengers, but apparently there was nothing they could do to hinder the course of the events.
Some people here have suggested a use of small portable diesel-powered pumps to prevent such accidents from happening. It should be remembered that they are not a required feature. The crew surely cannot be blamed for not having on board such equipment that is not required by the regulations in force! And in any case, would their output have been enough to displace the considerable body of water? Why not blame the ships that were in the vicinity for not using their pumps to empty the ship? Were the ship's insurers really not up to their job?
 
halls120
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:29 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 66):
The crew surely cannot be blamed for not having on board such equipment that is not required by the regulations in force!

Correct. But the crew can and should be held accountable for their failure to close the watertight doors. If they were automatically controlled, with no manual override, that is a design failure.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
sprout5199
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:02 am

Ahh the Anetters who know better:

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 67):
But the crew can and should be held accountable for their failure to close the watertight doors



Quoting WrenchBender (Reply 65):
I have to agree with several of the above posters and am disappointed that the crew were not able to deal with a 'relatively minor' damage control issue.



Quoting L-188 (Reply 62):
That's the sad part, it is very possible that a $250 dollar portable pump with a length of hose might have prevented the loss of the vessel.

Have ANY of you ever taken ANY damage control training? I have. A "fist" sized hole in the right place can cripple a ship. If it was in an area with a main switch board= no power= no pumps. Try to plug the hole would be impossible due to the freezing water temps. We had a 1/4 inch cooling line let go on the ship I was stationed on and it shot water into our #2 main switch board which killed power to the whole ship due to it hitting the supply wires coming from the diesel generators. Took some smart guys who knew the switch boards inside and out to bypass the #2 switch board just to get power back. And we were in port at the time.

We also had P-250 pumps onboard, 250 gal a min(hense the P for portable and "250" for 250 GPM) but to use them they had to be above deck so they might get 100gpm if there was a 10-20 foot suction head. If we were to use them to dewater the main engine room we could get maybe 50 gpm and that was using portable eductors at the same time. 50 gpm is not a lot.

The crew did what they were trained for, save the passengers. Then try to save the ship.

Quoting Scooter01 (Reply 51):
Well, -let's see.. It took 4 hours before another cruise-ship -not a dedicated SAR group, came to assistance.

4 hours is a FAST responce time. A "dedicated" sar group would be there in say 2 with a HELO and thats it.And even if there was a "dedicated" SAR boat, how long would it take to get there? And could it take 150 poeple onboard?
The sea is MUCH different the the land. Thats why when there is a distress call put out, everyone comes running, no matter the country. The law of the sea over-rides the law of the land.

Dan in Jupiter
 
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Scooter01
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:57 am

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 68):
The crew did what they were trained for, save the passengers. Then try to save the ship

-Exactly!

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 68):
4 hours is a FAST responce time. A "dedicated" sar group would be there in say 2 with a HELO and thats it.And even if there was a "dedicated" SAR boat, how long would it take to get there? And could it take 150 poeple onboard?

--My point too! One has to remember this is a scarcely populated, remote area of the world with extreme weather conditions, just a couple of scientific or military installations to offer any help/shelter. -If luck strikes, there might be another cruise- or supply ship nearby that can render assistance., YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN!

But let us remember, the "Explorer" sailed in these waters for close to 40 years without any major incidents, and the experiences she had probably "wrote the book" about Antarctic cruising.

Scooter01

[Edited 2007-11-27 18:07:23]
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halls120
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:03 am



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 68):
Have ANY of you ever taken ANY damage control training?

Yep. Fleet Training Group Little Creek twice, Fleet Training Group Pearl Harbor once. In charge of Repair Central on my last afloat tour. Multiple Dilbert Dunker sessions, FF school, the whole ball of wax.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 68):
If it was in an area with a main switch board= no power= no pumps. Try to plug the hole would be impossible due to the freezing water temps.

Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No.

According to Averageuser, the ship was holed in a compartment adjacent to the engine room but separated by a watertight bulkhead. If the crew had been trained properly, if the ship's watertight integrity was intact - no leaky stuffing tubes, WT doors in proper repair - it would not have been necessary to patch a small hole in one section of the ship. If that ship was built to Lloyd's standards, it should have been able to stay afloat indefinitely with one watertight compartment flooded.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 68):
The crew did what they were trained for, save the passengers. Then try to save the ship.

They did get that part right. Too bad they apparently weren't trained to be able to set proper watertight conditions.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:17 am

Could it be taht today ships rely too much on technology to keep themselves safe?

I remember an incident on a cruise ship, which got hit by a freak wave in a storm in the South Atlantic, where the wheel house windows got smashed and the bridge flooded. The water shortened the emergency main engine shut down switch (the engine was remote controlled from the bridge, no more engineer on watch in the engine room itself). This caused the ship to loose all propulsion during a critical phase and caused it to drift so that it got hit by following waves from the side, instead of being able to take them head on.
Fortunately the crew managed to restart the main engine (after difficulties, since the main switchboard on the bridge was soaked with water) and to get the ship back under control.
I'm also worried about centralising all ship controls on the bridge.
On aircraft we have multiple redundancies and wiring (especially emergency backup systems) routed seperately from the normal systems, if possible (remember Sioux City) .

If a ship regularly travels into hazardous waters (like the arctic or antarctic) where weather is often bad and where there is very little around in the way of SAR, wouldn't it be prudent to have the ship equiped and the crew trained in a way like the crew of an oceangoing salvage tug?
I think the Russian ice breakers are equiped to help themselves and others.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
halls120
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:23 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 71):
The water shortened the emergency main engine shut down switch (the engine was remote controlled from the bridge, no more engineer on watch in the engine room itself)

A sure recipe for disaster - no one on watch in the engine room.

When I was XO afloat, during some crappy weather, we had a short in the main electrical board, and a fire resulted. Because we had a manned engine room, the fire was extinguished almost immediately, and damage was minimal. Within a few hours, we were back underway.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 71):
I'm also worried about centralising all ship controls on the bridge.

You should be, especially on a ship the size of a cruise ship.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
L-188
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:29 am



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 68):
The crew did what they were trained for, save the passengers. Then try to save the ship.

I have no issues with them getting the pax off the boat, absolutely none.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 70):
Too bad they apparently weren't trained to be able to set proper watertight conditions.

Thats where they screwed up,

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 66):
Some people here have suggested a use of small portable diesel-powered pumps to prevent such accidents from happening. It should be remembered that they are not a required feature. The crew surely cannot be blamed for not having on board such equipment that is not required by the regulations in force!

Agreed, they wheren't required to have them onboard.

But in hindsight it would have been a smart idea. Maybe in the future they will be requried. As has been mentioned before they operate in a very remote area, and it is unlikely that the coast guard would be able to get a Herk overhead to drop a pump to them. (Something they do very often to vessels in distress here)
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:29 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 70):
Yep. Fleet Training Group Little Creek twice, Fleet Training Group Pearl Harbor once. In charge of Repair Central on my last afloat tour. Multiple Dilbert Dunker sessions, FF school, the whole ball of wax.

FTG Mayport, GITMO twice,FFG DC certified, repair 5 #1 nozzle man, #1 hose man, phone talker. 2 class "B" fires in the main engine room, 1 class "C" fire in main switch board #2(see above), flooding in the missle mag service room. And that what I remember off hand. And I was a twiget(Electronics Tech).

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 70):
Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No.

Depends on where the hole is. below deck grating, in 10 foot of water?

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 70):
the ship was holed in a compartment adjacent to the engine room but separated by a watertight bulkhead. If the crew had been trained properly, if the ship's watertight integrity was intact - no leaky stuffing tubes, WT doors in proper repair

The water tight integrity on my ship was in question, hard to test the cable passthru's. I remember doing chalk tests on the W/T doors for D/C inspection, if the doors were used a lot, guess what, hard to pass. Had many doors on the fail list. Hell half the dogs on the doors were worn out. But on "back order".

I would have to say if a "fist" sized hole was there, what about the buckling of the bulkheads that would occur? Ice burgs don't have sharp pointie parts that poke holes into ships. Who knows how much damage occured? I remember sitting in the Combat Systems lounge when a tug came along side. Pushed the side of the ship in 2 feet. Scared the $hit out of us.

Dan in Jupiter
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:39 am

Halls120,

But you might have noticed that over the last 30 years technical and deck crew of commercial ships has shrunken rapidly and AFIAK the level of training as decreased. Sure, modern cruise ships often have hundreds of crew, but most of them are doing passenger service or entertainment.
The previous engine room crew of an engineer on watch, stokers and oilers has almost disappeared. There is no maneuvering panel anymore, with an engineer directly controlling the engine according to commands relayed to him by an engine room telegraph from the bridge, but the engines are controlled by computersand control inputs are directly done from the bridge.
There exist more and more button pushers, who just know which button to press at what moment, but none of the old style engineers and sailors who know the ship inside out and know how to juryrig a fix to get the ship back into port.

Deck crews are mostly adequate if everything goes fine, but the ships are understaffed if the manure hits the fan.

You have huge ships like supertankers or container ships powered by one engine only and being crewed by 20 men.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
sprout5199
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:43 am



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 71):
Could it be taht today ships rely too much on technology to keep themselves safe?

I would have to agree on this. people can fix things in the most imaginative ways, a computer would just shut down. Look at the USS S.B. ROBERTS. They used cables to hold the ship together.

Dan in Jupiter
 
halls120
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RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:16 am



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 74):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 70):
Yep. Fleet Training Group Little Creek twice, Fleet Training Group Pearl Harbor once. In charge of Repair Central on my last afloat tour. Multiple Dilbert Dunker sessions, FF school, the whole ball of wax.

FTG Mayport, GITMO twice,FFG DC certified, repair 5 #1 nozzle man, #1 hose man, phone talker. 2 class "B" fires in the main engine room, 1 class "C" fire in main switch board #2(see above), flooding in the missle mag service room. And that what I remember off hand. And I was a twiget(Electronics Tech).

Commanding Officer afloat, Executive Officer afloat. Now that we have dispensed with the prelims......

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 74):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 70):
Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No.

Depends on where the hole is. below deck grating, in 10 foot of water?

if the hole is 10 feet below the water level, it is obviously a bit late to worry about patching the hull (if on a modern commercial ship.)

But how did the water level get that high? Can we say inoperative bilge alarms? Lack of adequate crew on watch?

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 74):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 70):
the ship was holed in a compartment adjacent to the engine room but separated by a watertight bulkhead. If the crew had been trained properly, if the ship's watertight integrity was intact - no leaky stuffing tubes, WT doors in proper repair

The water tight integrity on my ship was in question, hard to test the cable passthru's. I remember doing chalk tests on the W/T doors for D/C inspection, if the doors were used a lot, guess what, hard to pass. Had many doors on the fail list. Hell half the dogs on the doors were worn out. But on "back order".

Well, it might be "hard" to test cable pass thru's, but I suspect testing them is easier than dealing with progressive flooding.  Smile

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 74):
I would have to say if a "fist" sized hole was there, what about the buckling of the bulkheads that would occur? Ice burgs don't have sharp pointie parts that poke holes into ships. Who knows how much damage occured? I remember sitting in the Combat Systems lounge when a tug came along side. Pushed the side of the ship in 2 feet. Scared the $hit out of us.

Yes, shit happens afloat. All the more reason to have a properly trained and manned crew.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 75):
But you might have noticed that over the last 30 years technical and deck crew of commercial ships has shrunken rapidly and AFIAK the level of training as decreased. Sure, modern cruise ships often have hundreds of crew, but most of them are doing passenger service or entertainment.

You have hit the nail directly on its head.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13899
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:52 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 77):
Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 74):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 70):
Difficult? Yes. Impossible? No.

Depends on where the hole is. below deck grating, in 10 foot of water?

if the hole is 10 feet below the water level, it is obviously a bit late to worry about patching the hull (if on a modern commercial ship.)

In the olden sailing ship days, they used a sail to temporarily at least slow the amount of water passing through a hole. The sail had 4 lines attached to it's corners and was then slipped outboards over the leak (either from the bow or from the stern, with two lines passed beneath the keel), to give the carpenter a chance to plug it up. They also often made leak mats out of an old sail, the sailmaker threading pieces of rope fibers through it, so that it would resemble a door mat. This was then lowered over the side to patch the hole from the outside, the water pressure forcing it into the hole.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:21 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 77):
Commanding Officer afloat, Executive Officer afloat. Now that we have dispensed with the prelims......

Yea, But you ever had to activate an OBA due to smoke? Had to kick my CO out of the engine room fire. The on scene leader screamed at him BIG time. Being an officer is one thing but knowing how to do something is another. Had the DCA of my ship want to write me up becuase I called away flooding int the ships store room. I was POOW and a CPO called Quarterdeck with flooding in the store room. So I being a E-5 with 4 years on the ship I called it away. The DCA reamed my ass when it was over, bitching that I should have sent a runnner to check, It was just a void leaking. I almost hit him, thank god for the DCC was there. Sometimes knowlege is better than rank.

What ships did you command? Maybe I served under you?

Dan in Jupiter
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:00 pm

Anyway, here's a picture of the ship's launch, undated, must seems to be sometime in the summer of 1969. The ship was built in 9 months, which was in its time deemed almost impossible. She has some historical significance as she was the first cruise ship built in Finland, a forerunner to an industry that is not totally unknown today. Hopefully the British find out what went wrong and how.


 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 1:12 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 79):
Yea, But you ever had to activate an OBA due to smoke?

Yes.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 79):
Being an officer is one thing but knowing how to do something is another.

While a cadet on four summer cruises, I scraped buoys, stripped insulation, cleaned the engine room bilges, helped overhaul a main diesel engine, etc. As a new officer, I was trained properly by the CPO's on my first ship. When I was XO and CO, I never asked the crew to do something I couldn't do myself.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Curtisman
Posts: 938
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:24 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 23):
One of our own a.netters, Curtisman, went on an extended trip on this ship less than one year ago. They went from Chile to Antarctica and he took some incredible photos during his trip. He is gone this weekend on yet another of his many trips. Malta? Bahamas? Hawaii? I forget. I'm sure he can post some feedback about the ship and his experience when he returns. In the meantime, here is one photo that he emailed to me of The Explorer:

Thanks Diamond - yes I am now back from another weekend getaway and this time it was the Bahamas. Hawaii was 2 weeks ago. Oddly enough I am leaving this weekend for 5 weeks in Central America and I will once again be travelling with GAP. This was surprising news to see.

I spent this past New Years on this ship in Antarctica. The ship has an amazing history of 'firsts' including some ventures into very isolated waters. Just to clear up, I was VERY aware of the dangers involved in this voyage. From the extremely rough seas we crossed when we left Ushuaia to the dangers of ice flows. This is not a typical 'cruise' ship. GAP is more of an adventure company and the journey involves talks from scientists about everything from animal life in the Antarctic to the global warming theory. I had one of the best journeys of my life on this trip. Partly because of the people I travelled with and partly because Antarctica is the most amazing continent I have been to - and yes - I've been to all 7. The beauty of the fjords, the ice bergs, the animals and the absolute remoteness is unbelievable. From what I understand, typical cruise ships sail near Antarctica. With this ship we actually go on land every day and walk on the continent. I even swam in the ocean down there.

It is truly sad to see her on her side and knowing that she has now sunk. The crew was absolutely amazing when I was on board and the captain is known as one of the top captains for ice sailing. He took us into some amazing ice areas and we broke some light ice along the way. I remember laying in my cabin on the lowest deck (I can't recall my cabin number at this point - I was on the lowest deck in the most forward cabin on the left side) and hearing the odd chunk of ice as we hit it - pretty cool. But I will stress here that the captain held safety as #1 and we were told of some of the techniques in sailing in ice. Safety was of paramount concern to all crew and the precautions they took with us were amazing.

If any of you have any question, feel free to post. I am home for 2 days now so can only reply until Thursday night. Then I am off to Central America.

Cheers!
Len
Citizen of the World
 
msnell
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:03 am

RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:45 pm

There has been much speculation about this incident but I just wanted to add a couple of points - I'm sorry if I repeat anything that's already been said!

First of all, I'm a civilian officer on a military ship (Royal Fleet Auxiliary - stores, ammunition etc.) so I've completed a mix of Royal Navy and Merchant Navy courses. I don't remember ever doing damage control on a civilian course but I have done with the RN.

There are very different attitudes in the merchant world as opposed to the military one. The emphasis in the Navy seems to be more (and rightly so) on "keep the ship afloat to carry on fighting". Therefore a lot of effort is taken to teach people to "get stuck in and save the ship". The merchant training is more about getting everyone off if you have to. This leads me to my first point:

I remember being told by a civilian instructor that "The ship is the best lifeboat you have" and "Don't leave the ship until the ship leaves you". I can't help thinking that the Captain of that ship, and let's spare a thought for that guy because he will be pretty miserable at the moment, made the decision to abandon based on the proximity of vessels able to assist. If there were no ships in the area then more effort may have been made to save the ship.

Secondly, the ship would have (should have) been able to pump out water without the main engine or portable pumps. Every ship must have a seperate generator to be used in the event of losing the main machinery space, the pumps should have run off this. Also, the emergency fire pump (mandatory) will have given them the option to use fire hoses and inline inductors to work as pumps. This is not ideal but gives you an option if you need it.

Then there is the question of the hole in the side of the ship, who said it was fist sized? Is that something that gets put into a press release to calm relatives? If the hole was sighted by the crew then it would have been from the inside of the ship and some quick measures may have stemmed the ingress of water. Is it not a possibility that the hole was in fact much bigger or harder to get to than we imagine?

Lastly, to compare this incident to warships is incredible. Take the HMS Nottingham incident (embarassment) off Australia. Those damage control teams worked miracles in saving the ship but how many were there in the teams? For a Naval Officer to order twenty people into a flooded, cold and dark compartment is one thing but for a Cruise Officer to do the same with a few Deck/Engineering personnel (Hotel Services would be dealing with passengers), that just wouldn't happen - the manpower isn't there and tends to be slightly more militant when it is!

Whatever happened, I'm sure that they did their best, taking to the boats was probably a better option than sending people down into such a dangerous area when rescue was so close at hand!

Finally:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 71):
Fortunately the crew managed to restart the main engine (after difficulties, since the main switchboard on the bridge was soaked with water) and to get the ship back under control.

If there is water on the bridge, you really need to start thinking about getting off!

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 81):
While a cadet on four summer cruises, I scraped buoys, stripped insulation, cleaned the engine room bilges, helped overhaul a main diesel engine, etc. As a new officer, I was trained properly by the CPO's on my first ship. When I was XO and CO, I never asked the crew to do something I couldn't do myself.

I totally agree, lean manning means everyone has to be flexible, we just don't have the option of saying "I'm an Officer, I don't have to know how to do that, I just want it done"!
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:38 pm



Quoting Msnell (Reply 83):
Then there is the question of the hole in the side of the ship, who said it was fist sized?

A question to people with maritime qualifications on stability I've wanted to ask: what approximately would have been the volume of water required to sink a ship of these dimentions and displacement?

Tonnage: 2398
Length: 72.88 m
Beam: 14.08 m
Draught: 4.48 m
 
msnell
Posts: 40
Joined: Fri Apr 13, 2007 6:03 am

RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:33 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 84):
A question to people with maritime qualifications on stability I've wanted to ask: what approximately would have been the volume of water required to sink a ship of these dimentions and displacement?

Tonnage: 2398
Length: 72.88 m
Beam: 14.08 m
Draught: 4.48 m

It's been a long time since I did any stability calculations (long-hand anyway) but it is very complicated! You would need to know all sorts of other figures:

Freeboard - distance between waterline and main deck (or where the water can gain entry to the inside of the ship).
Cross section - to calculate the 'free surface effect (the phenomenon where water rushes across the deck and capsizes the ship like the "Herald of Free Enterprise" - Zeebrugge
Where the hole is - midships would create a list to one side, fore or aft creates a pitch as the vessel sinks at the stern or the bow.
How much ballast was pumped in or out of tanks to limit the list.
Centre of buoyancy/gravity.
Something called the 'metacentre' which I couldn't hope to remember the definition of!

There is a lot more to it but it is mostly to do with the design of the ship. Also once you start getting to the degrees of roll in the photos it's pretty much all over because you'll lose even your emergency generators.

I'm sorry that I couldn't answer your question but it could be a relatively small amount of water if it just happened to be in 'the wrong place'. On a passenger ship (excluding ferries with vehicle decks) this is unlikely unless they lost several large spaces down one side and the engine room perhaps.
 
dvk
Posts: 1017
Joined: Thu Jun 29, 2000 12:18 am

RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Wed Nov 28, 2007 6:35 pm

I was on the Explorer for a 1998 trip to Antarctica. She was a fun ship, and it's sad to think of her on the bottom of the ocean now.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
bilgerat
Posts: 250
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 6:43 pm

RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Thu Nov 29, 2007 11:31 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 68):
Have ANY of you ever taken ANY damage control training?

Yep, I've completed Royal Navy damage control training, as well as both RN and STCW95 firefighting courses.

I'm an engineering officer with the Royal Fleet Auxiliary.

Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 68):
A "fist" sized hole in the right place can cripple a ship. If it was in an area with a main switch board= no power= no pumps

A fist sized hole should not cripple a properly designed ship.

In my career I have NEVER seen a switchboard that is located in a place that is likely to flood. I have never seen them located on or near the ship's side, they are always in either the control room or a seperate switchboard room for this very reason. Unless the flooding is truly catastrophic it should not affect the switchboards. If anything it will take out the prime movers.

In which case every ship has an emergency generator that is located above the waterline and will be able to supply either the main switchboard or an emergency switchboard.

Right now I'm on a Pielstick Engines course at Rolls Royce in Manchester and I'm here with five other engineer officers. We were discussing this topic today and the general agreement is that there is a lot more to this incident than just a "fist sized hole".

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 84):
A question to people with maritime qualifications on stability I've wanted to ask: what approximately would have been the volume of water required to sink a ship of these dimentions and displacement?

Well....

Quoting Msnell (Reply 85):
it is very complicated!

 Smile

It depends on a lot of things, but the critical factors are the location of the flooding, the loaded condition of the ship and any possible free surface effect. The calculations are pretty horrendous, I remember having to sit my "damaged stability" exam and the subject gets very complicated indeed.

A good piece of advice is if you are ever on a ship and you see an engineer getting into a lifeboat then you would be very wise to follow  Wink
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2001 3:13 am

RE: Canadian Cruise Ship Sinking In Antarctic Waters

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:04 pm

A pic in my local newspaper, http://www.helagotland.se/img/2007/12/4/2841665.jpg
the captain is from the same island as I...
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...

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