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Beaucaire
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Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 11:22 am

Analyzing the religious leaders and other official strong religious voices one must admit that - it's a male chauvinist macho event..
From the men only sites of orthodox monks in Greece,the men controlled Vatican,men -only clergy in Islam,men driven spirituality in Buddhism-not to speak even about Hinduism and Taoism - male Rabbi's with the Jews - it seems only female Shaman's bring some justice to the world of believe and "wisdom ? " ...
Why do men consider women not ready to run leadership-positions within religious circles?
Are they still considered - underlying - lesser human beings?
I'm not talking about some protestant church female priests -they are barely an insignificant fact.
But historically and actually men always considered themselves better spiritual leaders -why is that ?
Women have better instinct for many situations then men,are more balanced in their views ,more "down to earth" in conflict-situations and tend to be much more interested in alternative spirituality than men.
Go to India and visit ashram's - most visitors are women...

At least the old Egyptians had female goddesses and female priest's
 
Toast
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:43 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
it's a male chauvinist macho event..

Of course. Religion is all about power, money, and violence whenever "needed". Power, making money, and killing people you don't like have always been typical male occupations.

Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Why do men consider women not ready to run leadership-positions within religious circles?

Because men are insecure, which is the real root of most of this planet's ills IMO. Plus, men are full of shit. If women had their say in any religion, they would likely cut the superstitious bullshit by 99%, thus destroying the very foundation of religion.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 12:49 pm

Women generally are far too practical in their outlook to have anything to do with the general stupidity of organized religion. No doubt many women are relgiious, but for truly idiotic religion you need men.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:27 pm

Quoting Toast (Reply 1):
Because men are insecure, which is the real root of most of this planet's ills IMO. Plus, men are full of shit. If women had their say in any religion, they would likely cut the superstitious bullshit by 99%, thus destroying the very foundation of religion.

Tend to agree with the "men are full of shit " argument ....
But living in a macho -men's world is slowly but surely ruining our mother earth and accelerating down-spin.
Maybe that's what some want- but then we run right into "x-file" country scenarios(..although some of those conspiracy stories are not all that fiction..)
The reason while I mention shamanism is the fact tha specifically in Siberia and other shamanic -places in Asia,there is no distinction between men and women practicing shamanic rituals and shamanic knowledge.
Shamanism is not the same thing as Native American spirituality-although easily put into the same basket as "pagan -shamanic religion".So even among North American Indians tribes,most Shamans are men...
Having an interest in understanding the brainwash that religion does causes among "civilized nations" ,I've never understood the passiveness of women-politicians with regards to the negative influence of men in religion.
Religion -and that is documented-has caused more misery and death throughout the centuries than any other cause for wars.And literally ALL religious rulers responsible for those conflicts were and are men .
Reading a lot about religion ,I come to the conclusion that it's better to declare religion in it's currently practiced form as
incompatible with peace.

[Edited 2007-11-30 05:36:44]
 
Toast
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 1:58 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 3):
I've never understood the passiveness of women-politicians with regards to the negative influence of men in religion.

Given that men are scared to death of independent, strong women, they do whatever it takes to discourage them form meddling in their affairs. Plus, women are biologically geared toward compromise and gentleness - none of which will unfortunately get you anywhere in this world where important decision making is a ruthless and completely immoral process.

There are exceptions, though. In my family, atheism was introduced by my grandmother. One day in 1969, she went to mass and saw the priest foaming at the mouth, screaming that sending men to the moon "with cannons" was an outrage toward god, and that the arrogance of science would send us all to hell. At that point my grandmother, always a lukewarm believer, decided she'd had enough of that shit, and never set foot in a church again. She also demanded to be buried without any religious ceremony, an idea unheard of where she lived. RIP granny, and god bless your strength and intelligence.  Smile
 
TACAA320
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:37 pm

Regarding Christianity, many women played a great roll in history. Even now, spreading the word of the Lord around the world, helping the abandoned, taking care of orphans, etc.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...ne/shows/religion/first/roles.html
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 2:50 pm

It's part of the strategy of religious leaders to keep the masses un-educated,stuck in dogmatic believes so they can be manipulated easily. Actually football,church,TV-trivia shows and TV news are basically the same tool to keep people from thinking and searching for truth behind facts.
Our actual pope is not much better than the one Innocent III who chased the Cathars in the 13th century ,in that he still denies the basic rights to priest's to be married,to allow women access clerical positions and still keeps the dogma that the pope is always right...
To the pope Catholicism is still the better of all religion,to the Muslims and Jews cheating non Muslims or Jews is always considered as authorized,to the Buddhists and their useless mantra's there is always the yellow-and red-hat fraction-one is rather satanic..
I will never ever forget a short sequence on French TV when -just after the murder of Izak Rabin- French TV showed (only once -then the sequence was confiscated )some Kabbalists in front of Izak Rabin's home ,filmed just days before his murder,spelling satanist-kaballistic formulas to spell his death.
Those people ware Orthodox Rabbies ...
It's a sad but fascinating subject to dig into -the darkness of religion- and the manipulation tied to the "message of peace" used by literally all religions.
And a just recent example of the stupidity of religion-interpretation- the Teddy-bear called Mohammed in Sudan causes calls for death-penalty for the British teacher ...

[Edited 2007-11-30 06:58:43]
 
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asuflyer05
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:11 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 4):
Plus, women are biologically geared toward compromise and gentleness - none of which will unfortunately get you anywhere in this world where important decision making is a ruthless and completely immoral process.

You could make the same argument about the business world. Women should just stay in the kitchen where they belong.
 
Toast
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:11 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 5):
many women played a great roll

Do you mean a great "roll" as in baking bread rolls, or as in rolling up the pope's window blinds in the morning?  duck 

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 5):
helping the abandoned, taking care of orphans, etc.

Indeed. But why do those women, who are doing all the "dirty" work - the only truly Christian thing the Church can claim doing - have zero, zilch, nothing, nada to say in religious matters?

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):
still keeps the dogma that the pope is always right...

To be quite fair here, he "only" claims to be infallible in religious matters. So if the pope tells you Pepsi is better than Coke, you can send him packing without fear of excommunication.  Wink

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 6):
It's a sad but fascinating subject to dig into -the darkness of religion- and the manipulation tied to the "message of peace" used by literally all religions.

Agreed. It's repulsive but irresistibly fascinating, like studying criminology.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:16 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 8):

Agreed. It's repulsive but irresistibly fascinating, like studying criminology.

Many more victims -sadly though- in the religious-story than in all criminology science.....
 
cfalk
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:22 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
Women have better instinct for many situations then men,are more balanced in their views ,more "down to earth" in conflict-situations and tend to be much more interested in alternative spirituality than men.

I agree with everything you said. But you neglect one thing - PMS.

If women had control of the world, there would be nuclear war every 28 days.  duck 
 
Toast
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:30 pm



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 7):
You could make the same argument about the business world. Women should just stay in the kitchen where they belong.

Our genetic/hormonal/physical makeup is what it is, but many men think that's a good enough reason to reduce women to cooking, sex, and reproduction. Almost all religions have for centuries hammered that shit into people's heads, to the point where many women don't even realize they're being exploited. Witness women in some of the more backward Muslim countries. There's not a whole lot of resentment toward the de facto slavery they live in in places like Saudi Arabia, just numbness and acceptance. They are born, then live and die in total submission because religion tells them that's just the way it is.

And yes, women entrepreneurs that go anywhere beyond running family stores tend to scare the shit out of men and be considered as ruthless, asexual bitches. Even in the most modern Western nations, female CEOs are still a tiny minority decades after the sexual revolution. It'll be a long time before overt religious misogyny and covert secular misogyny will fade away, if ever.
 
Toast
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 3:50 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 10):
If women had control of the world, there would be nuclear war every 28 days.

Okay, let men rule one day a month. Big grin
 
Doona
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:31 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Thread starter):
I'm not talking about some protestant church female priests -they are barely an insignificant fact.

That precise attitude is one of the problems. Why should hierachy in religion be changed from the top down? I'd say that allowing more women into the "lower" positions would naturally lead to them getting further and further up. We have quite a few female priests in Sweden, the Archbishop of Sweden is a woman too.

Cheers
Mats
 
PacNWjet
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:35 pm

I am going to go out on a limb and disagree with the premise of this question or, at least, suggest that the question only explores one facet of religion. As far as that one facet is concerned, yes, I would agree that men dominate the formal institutions of organized religion, the churches, temples, mosques, sanctuaries, and synagogues of organized religion. However, and this is what I think the question overlooks, in many of the world's major religions it is women who are in charge of the spiritual life of the home. In virtually every major religion, religious life is played out not exclusively in formal, public institutions, but in the family and in the home, in childrearing and education, in kinship relations and religious culture. Here, in most major religions, women dominate. While men go to work or engage in activities that take them out of the home for much of the day, women stay at home and inculcate religious beliefs and values in their children. It is women who perpetuate religious traditions and beliefs through their roles as caregivers and educators of the young. So while a man may lead prayers in church or temple or mosque on sabbath days, the rest of the week it is women who carry on the religious traditions and pass them on to the next generation. This is a very important role, and women occupy it for the most part in most of the world's major religions.

[Edited 2007-11-30 08:36:57]
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 4:42 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 1):
Because men are insecure, which is the real root of most of this planet's ills IMO. Plus, men are full of shit.

= LOL. And, true.

BTW, do you all think it has something to do with the fact that in all religions, EXCEPT Hinduism, God is represented by a male figure. In Hinduism, where there are several women Gods, women are more active.

Cheers,
A.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 5:00 pm



Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 14):
I am going to go out on a limb and disagree with the premise of this question or, at least, suggest that the question only explores one facet of religion. As far as that one facet is concerned, yes, I would agree that men dominate the formal institutions of organized religion, the churches, temples, mosques, sanctuaries, and synagogues of organized religion. However, and this is what I think the question overlooks, in many of the world's major religions it is women who are in charge of the spiritual life of the home. In virtually every major religion, religious life is played out not exclusively in formal, public institutions, but in the family and in the home, in childrearing and education, in kinship relations and religious culture. Here, in most major religions, women dominate. While men go to work or engage in activities that take them out of the home for much of the day, women stay at home and inculcate religious beliefs and values in their children. It is women who perpetuate religious traditions and beliefs through their roles as caregivers and educators of the young. So while a man may lead prayers in church or temple or mosque on sabbath days, the rest of the week it is women who carry on the religious traditions and pass them on to the next generation. This is a very important role, and women occupy it for the most part in most of the world's major religions.

While you are right in principle,the most damaging aspect of religion is the dogmatic imposture of a "sacred" text or tradition and it's restrictive translation into every day life.
Take the Coran as worse example of how to convert a series of traditional philosophical stances into a restrictive,agressive and imprisoning dogma ,that gives men the tool to enslave women .There are more muftis and Islamic clergymen in thousands of madrassas all over the globe to convert a previously positive text into a justification for misery.
Or where does the bible state that the teachers and propagators of the Christian religion should live without being married ?? - but those very same -unmarried priest's then have the "authority "to tell married families how to live their lives ?
It's only with the consilum of Latrun in the 12th century that this was definitely imposed,although many popes after that concilium had children..
The more I read and learn about religion ,the more I despise it ...
 
cakentennis
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:27 pm

(Sigh)

I have a slightly tangential perspective to the 'stupid men' theory. Organized religion is analogical to a very big con, pulled off by very imaginative, smart and manipulative people who realized the power they can command over the masses through religion. The target public here would be the dumb masses who have irrational beliefs about gender roles and such. Which is why anything that is 'different' in society is a 'problem' for these people.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 14):
This is a very important role, and women occupy it for the most part in most of the world's major religions.

I disagree. I'm sure, not many women will like how you've reduced they're role in society to propagation of religion. This very 'stay in the house' role that you're glorifying leads to gender discrimination. Traditions change, as humans we cannot survive unless we change. Preserving outdated beliefs that hold no rational standing in the modern world is stupid. It worked a long time ago, for a different set of people. It certainly isn't working right now.

Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 15):
EXCEPT Hinduism, God is represented by a male figure. In Hinduism, where there are several women Gods, women are more active.

I'm afraid that in reality that still doesn't change the attitude of people for the most part. Of the hundreds of temples my parents dragged me into as a child, I've yet to see a single priestess.

I read in the news recently, that a man in (Calcutta ? ) married and impregnated his own teenage daughter because 'Allah' commanded so. Sheesh!
 
PacNWjet
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:45 pm



Quoting Cakentennis (Reply 17):
I disagree. I'm sure, not many women will like how you've reduced they're role in society to propagation of religion. This very 'stay in the house' role that you're glorifying leads to gender discrimination. Traditions change, as humans we cannot survive unless we change. Preserving outdated beliefs that hold no rational standing in the modern world is stupid. It worked a long time ago, for a different set of people. It certainly isn't working right now.

First off, I did not intend to "reduce" women to one role or another. So I guess I should have said that among the many roles women play in the world has been their role as the spiritual leader of the home. Second, I am not "glorifying" anything. I merely offered an observation. There is a big difference between observing something and glorifying it. I can observe that many people don't wash their hands after going to the bathroom. That certainly doesn't mean I am glorifying it.  Yeah sure
 
abrelosojos
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 6:52 pm



Quoting Cakentennis (Reply 17):
I read in the news recently, that a man in (Calcutta ? ) married and impregnated his own teenage daughter because 'Allah' commanded so. Sheesh!

= Ya, I read that. They are nut jobs I guess everywhere. Though, I was referring to HIndiusm and not Islam.

Quoting Cakentennis (Reply 17):
I'm afraid that in reality that still doesn't change the attitude of people for the most part. Of the hundreds of temples my parents dragged me into as a child, I've yet to see a single priestess.

= Interesting. Were these in India? I dont claim to know it well ... its a hugely diverse country ... but found many priestess and sanyasins (spelling?) during my trips there.

Cheers,
A.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:05 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 8):
Do you mean a great "roll" as in baking bread rolls, or as in rolling up the pope's window blinds in the morning?

FE DE ERRATAS: Instead of "roll" read "role".

Quoting Toast (Reply 8):
But why do those women, who are doing all the "dirty" work

Do you really consider the following "dirty"?

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 5):
spreading the word of the Lord around the world, helping the abandoned, taking care of orphans, etc.

 
Toast
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 7:47 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 20):
Instead of "roll" read "role".

I know, but I couldn't resist.  Smile

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 20):
Do you really consider the following "dirty"?

Spreading the "Lord's Word"? Not literally dirty, but it's advertising a service (sign up for free today and be saved for all eternity!) they cannot deliver and they know it. So it's dishonest.

As for charitable work, it's often dirty in the literal sense, but of course very noble otherwise. My point was, females do all the actual physical hard work in the Catholic Church, from soup kitchens and clinics to sweeping church floors and caring for senile bishops. Ora et labora, as the saying goes. Another one is "mulier tacent in ecclesia". Two phrases that pretty much sum up how highly the Catholic hierarchy regards women. And we're talking Christianity here, a religion that needed to reform itself many times through schisms and councils in order not to lose authority. Islam never had to compromise. It never generated a widespread reform movement. Instead, it created Wahhabism ("think we were superstitious and barbaric before? Wait till you see this!)
 
cakentennis
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:15 pm



Quoting Abrelosojos (Reply 19):

= Interesting. Were these in India? I dont claim to know it well ... its a hugely diverse country ... but found many priestess and sanyasins (spelling?) during my trips there.

They were Hindu temples scattered around India. I've never seen any female priests. I know that the Jains have priestesses who seem to do as they wish, maybe credited to the fact that it's a largely dormant religion in politics of the region with no influential overbearing body to control it. In that sense I feel the Jains are a better off than the Hindus and Muslims.

Quoting PacNWjet (Reply 18):
That certainly doesn't mean I am glorifying it. Yeah sure

Sans sarcasm, your original post lead me to understand otherwise, but I'll take your word for it. My basic point is that religion enforces traditional gender roles. What good is it for a woman if she sits at home and preaches a dilapidated concept of life to her children, when she can't even go out in the public dressed as she wants, sleep with whomever she wishes, marry whomever she loves and accept the sexual orientation she was born with ?

I'm not saying that all women are restricted by religion, but for the most part, religion distorts a persons ability to think and judge, freely and rationally with the least amount of prejudice. Religion on the other hand creates prejudice. It's unfriendly to anything that is different and scares people into believing outdated definitions of what is right and wrong.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:34 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 5):
Regarding Christianity, many women played a great roll in history. Even now, spreading the word of the Lord around the world, helping the abandoned, taking care of orphans, etc.

But in the case of the Roman Catholic Church, why hasn't the Vatican followed the Protestant Congregations suit and allowed women as priests/bishops/cardinals, or even as popes? Why is the Vatican still so sexist about the office of a ministry?
 
TACAA320
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:42 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 21):
Spreading the "Lord's Word"? Not literally dirty, but it's advertising a service (sign up for free today and be saved for all eternity!) they cannot deliver and they know it. So it's dishonest.

Everybody is free to accept or reject the Word of the Lord. He gave us free will.

Quoting Toast (Reply 21):
My point was

Was or "is"?

Quoting Toast (Reply 21):
mulier tacent in ecclesia[sic]

Do you mean " mulier taceat in ecclesia " ?
 
TACAA320
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 8:57 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 23):

But in the case of the Roman Catholic Church, why hasn't the Vatican followed the Protestant Congregations suit and allowed women as priests/bishops/cardinals, or even as popes?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church sets it out clearly, quoting the decree Inter insigniores:

Only a baptized man (vir) receives sacred ordination. The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord Himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.
 
Toast
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:07 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 24):
Everybody is free to accept or reject the Word of the Lord. He gave us free will.

Unfortunately, "He" did not give infants free will or the ability to decide. The overwhelming majority of marketing and gaining customer loyalty is done before you've learned to read and write. I myself was baptized at about 8 or 9 when my parents finally ceded to family pressure. I don't have any recollection of the ceremony, but I'm fairly sure I wasn't told "Toasty dear, if after having read and understood the Holy Scriptures and compared them to other religious systems and secular philosophies you are now prepared to accept Jesus of Nazareth as your savior, you are free to join the Catholic Church. Or be circumcised and practice Judaism like your ancestors. Or settle on secular humanism if it fits your convictions better. Feel free to choose, no rush, no obligation."

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 24):
Was or "is"?

Is.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 24):
Do you mean " mulier taceat in ecclesia " ?

I knew I would screw up my Latin if I cited from memory. Thanks.  Smile

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 25):
The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord Himself.

Is there any passage in the New Testament where Jesus says his choice of only men was premeditated? Did he ever state it had to remain that way forever, or did the Church take a likely fortuitous circumstance and interpreted it in a way convenient to themselves? Just curious.

BTW, the pope should only ride on a donkey and walk on foot. Jesus didn't fly, so it's obvious he didn't want his followers to fly either...
 
TACAA320
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 9:21 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 26):
Is.

I knew it.

Quoting Toast (Reply 26):

I knew I would screw up my Latin if I cited from memory. Thanks.

Your welcome.
I also cited that [ mulier taceat in ecclesia ] by memory. I couldn't resist the temptation as you did in your reply 21.  sarcastic 
 
TACAA320
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:20 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 26):
Is there any passage in the New Testament where Jesus says his choice of only men was premeditated?

I really don't know. Honestly. But everything He does, has a reason.

Quoting Toast (Reply 26):
Did he ever state it had to remain that way forever, or did the Church take a likely fortuitous circumstance and interpreted it in a way convenient to themselves?

I can tell you about the official position in this regard of the Roman Catholic Church today [is already posted in reply 25]. What is going to happen tomorrow ? Only God knows that. [My personal opinion is, that it is forever].

Quoting Toast (Reply 26):
BTW, the pope should only ride on a donkey and walk on foot.

The Pope riding a Equus asinus? Do you have a picture? [Must be funny].

Quoting Toast (Reply 26):
Jesus didn't fly, so it's obvious he didn't want his followers to fly either...

He can fly if He wants. He can do everything He wants.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Fri Nov 30, 2007 10:45 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 25):
Only a baptized man (vir) receives sacred ordination. The Lord Jesus chose men (viri) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry. The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord Himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.

How do we really know for sure? Especially since there's no guarantee that the gospels are truely a close to accurate "biography" of Jesus Christ, with all the differences between the 4 canonical gospels by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, plus the possibility that the Church has edited out parts of the gospels, that e.g. say that women aren't banned from officiating mass or becoming priests (a kind of censorship that may have been applied by the Church in its beginning to fully consolidate patriarchical rule). I feel that the Church has never been fully honest with the people. Even in Judaism (except in orthodox Judaism perhaps), from which Christianity descends, a woman could also become a Rabbi if she wanted to.

All of this is just interpretation of the word of Jesus Christ. There's nothing that says that Christ did indeed say that. Besides, the gospels have been written a long time after Christ had died on the cross, so in the end, there may be the assumption that by the time Mark, Matthew, Luke and John wrote their respective gospels, that they may not have remembered everything and thus left out certain details (apart from the mentioned possible censorship by the Church).
 
FlyboyOz
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:06 am

I watched the TV about the beginning of the early church and missionary. It said that Mary (an ex-prostitute and Mary Magdalene) may be the first woman to be the leader or priest. She spent lots of time to work for God and travelled around the europe to tell people about miracle and God.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:57 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
How do we really know for sure?

The key word is faith.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
Especially since there's no guarantee that the gospels are truely a close to accurate "biography" of Jesus Christ, with all the differences between the 4 canonical gospels by Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, plus the possibility that the Church has edited out parts of the gospels, that e.g. say that women aren't banned from officiating mass or becoming priests (a kind of censorship that may have been applied by the Church in its beginning to fully consolidate patriarchical rule). I feel that the Church has never been fully honest with the people. Even in Judaism (except in orthodox Judaism perhaps), from which Christianity descends, a woman could also become a Rabbi if she wanted to.

There is no warranty. Not even science can give you a 100% warranty about many things.

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
All of this is just interpretation of the word of Jesus Christ. There's nothing that says that Christ did indeed say that. Besides, the gospels have been written a long time after Christ had died on the cross, so in the end, there may be the assumption that by the time Mark, Matthew, Luke and John wrote their respective gospels, that they may not have remembered everything and thus left out certain details (apart from the mentioned possible censorship by the Church).

"Divine inspiration". The Catholic doctrine teach that the Gospels were written by divine inspiration. It's the word of the Lord.

" ...
II. NATURE OF INSPIRATION
A. Method to be followed

(1) To determine the nature of Biblical inspiration the theologian has at his disposal a three fold source of information: the data of tradition, the concept of inspiration, and the concrete state of the inspired text. If he wishes to obtain acceptable results he will take into account all of these elements of solution. Pure speculation might easily end in a theory incompatible with the texts. On the other hand, the literary or historical analysis of these same texts, if left to its own resources, ignores their Divine origin. Finally, if the data of tradition attest the fact of inspiration, they do not furnish us with a complete analysis of its nature. Hence, theology, philosophy, and exegesis have each a word to say on this subject. Positive theology furnishes a starting point in its traditional formulae: viz., God is the author of Scripture, the inspired writer is the organ of the Holy Ghost, Scripture is the Word of God. Speculative theology takes these formulae, analyses their contents and from them draws its conclusions. In this way St. Thomas, starting from the traditional concept which makes the sacred writer an organ of the Holy Ghost, explains the subordination of his faculties to the action of the Inspirer by the philosophical theory of the instrumental cause (Quodl., VII, Q. vi, a. 14, ad 5um). However, to avoid all risk of going astray, speculation must pay constant attention to the indications furnished by exegesis.

(2) The Catholic who wishes to make a correct analysis of Biblical inspiration must have before his eyes the following ecclesiastical documents: (a) "These books are held by the Church as sacred and canonical, not as having been composed by merely human labour and afterwards approved by her authority, nor merely because they contain revelation without error, but because, written under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, they have God for their author, and have been transmitted to the Church as such." (Concil. Vatic., Sess. III, const. dogm, de Fide, cap. ii, in Denz., 1787). (b) "The Holy Ghost Himself, by His supernatural power, stirred up and impelled the Biblical writers to write, and assisted them while writing in such a manner that they conceived in their minds exactly, and determined to commit to writing faithfully, and render in exact language, with infallible truth, all that God commanded and nothing else; without that, God would not be the author of Scripture in its entirety" (Encycl. Provid. Deus, in Dena., 1952). ..."

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08045a.htm

"...

The four Gospels are essential for explaining and defending the Catholic Faith. Within the scope of apologetics, it is fitting to demonstrate that these New Testament writings are credible; worthy of belief. The apologist who upholds Gospel credibility is expounding certain truths from the Catholic Magisterium via 1964. Sancta Mater Ecclesia (The Historicity of the Gospels) II, 3; 1965. Dei Verbum (Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation) 18 and 19; and 1997.Catechism of the Catholic Church 107 and 136. Let us sketch this apologia for the Gospels; beneficial not only for apologetics, but also with respect to evangelization and catechesis.

The strategy that demonstrates Gospel credibility begins by treating these writings as common historical documents. Certainly, a Christian treasures the divine inspiration of Scripture, taught in passages such as 2 Timothy 3:16-17 and 2 Peter 1:20-21. However, Gospel credibility does not rely exclusively on this theological truth of biblical inspiration. The apologist is merely trying to show, at the outset, that these compositions warrant consideration by human reason apart from faith. This method and its distinct terms are found in standard texts such as Alexander College Apologetics 45-78; Duggan Beyond Reasonable Doubt 87-115; Mirus Reasons for Hope 65-84; Sheed Catholic Evidence Training Outlines 167-176; and Sheehan Apologetics and Catholic Doctrine 74-83. This apologetic isn t a novelty; it is part of Catholic tradition, and supports the Pauline and Petrine texts regarding inspiration. ... "

Complete text can be found at: http://www.catholicherald.com/ciresi/03ciresi/ciresi0626.htm
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:12 am

If you read the books of the Austrian Antroposophe Rudolf Steiner carefully ,he makes reference to language ("das Verb") as the very begin of creation. To him the German word "Ich " or "me in English " is the abreviation of J,CH. or Jesus Christ.
So language has always been a clear vehicle for esoteric meaning. But it also means for him ,his disciples and people like the theosopher Helena Blavatsky that Jesus is clearly everybody and is not neccessarily the charismatic "physical person" like portrayed in the Bible or by the catholic ceric.
Anthroposophy is clearly a more complex description of how "things fit together" but one that complies more to my personal understanding of the energies and forces that created and run the universe.
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:40 am



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 32):
If you read the books of the Austrian Antroposophe Rudolf Steiner carefully ,he makes reference to language ("das Verb") as the very begin of creation. To him the German word "Ich " or "me in English " is the abreviation of J,CH. or Jesus Christ.

I have a lot of respect for Steiner, but from a linguist's point of view, this particular theory doesn't hold water for a second. ICH, a pronoun with cognates in all other Indo-European languages, would be a conscious or unconscious combination of iota from the Hellenized Hebrew Yeshua and xi from the Greek Christos???  no 

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 32):
So language has always been a clear vehicle for esoteric meaning.

Language and numbers, too. Hence entire pseudo-religious movements like Kabbalah.

Speaking of language, very few Christians seem to realize just how much an altered document both the Old and New Testaments are. Written over centuries by people with varying literary skills, in several different languages, then translated (making some pretty big mistakes in the process) from one language to another and vice versa, then trimmed and recompiled by successive councils and bloated with stuff that wasn't there originally. While Biblical translation is admittedly a no-go zone for the non-geek, I wish Christians would stop telling me at every occasion that the Bible is a divinely inspired book in which everything makes perfect sense millenniums after being written. Makes you wonder if Christians ever try to read it critically or investigate its well-documented history... Oh wait, that's what faith is all about, isn't it - ignore all facts and just accept the official version...
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:12 am



Quoting Toast (Reply 33):
(making some pretty big mistakes in the process)

Like which ones? Can you prove such "big mistakes" with A 100% accuracy ?

Quoting Toast (Reply 33):
I wish Christians would stop telling me at every occasion that the Bible is a divinely inspired book in which everything makes perfect sense millenniums after being written.

Simply ignore us. That's my advise.
If you consider yourself as an "atheist" [which I don't know for sure], just simply ignore our position about The Holy Bible.

Quoting Toast (Reply 33):
Makes you wonder if Christians ever try to read it critically or investigate its well-documented history...

Many are dedicated to that [specially Jesuits]. To study the sacred scriptures.

Quoting Toast (Reply 33):
Oh wait, that's what faith is all about, isn't it - ignore all facts and just accept the official version...

I prefer the biblical explanation of faith : "

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see"(Heb. 11:1, NIV). "

It is more than obvious that for an atheist or an agnostic, no explanation is possible. Or like Saint Thomas Aquinas once said: "To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible."

Faith is not belief without proof, but trust without reservation.
 
Beaucaire
Topic Author
Posts: 3888
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2003 4:48 am

RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:08 am



Quoting Toast (Reply 33):
I have a lot of respect for Steiner, but from a linguist's point of view, this particular theory doesn't hold water for a second. ICH, a pronoun with cognates in all other Indo-European languages, would be a conscious or unconscious combination of iota from the Hellenized Hebrew Yeshua and xi from the Greek Christos??? no

From Steiner " de Jesus a Christ"..
Le Christ Jesus montre en effet aux yeux de tous ce que chaque homme peut devenir s'il se comprend lui-meme : un porteur libre et conscient du " Je suis ". Il a fallu pour cela qu'un dieu, le Christ, apparaisse sur la scene de l'histoire et vive pendant trois ans le destin d'un homme, Jesus, de Nazareth.

That means the JCH - or "Je Suis" (I am ) allows to each and everybody who is willing to search within himself the total free conciousness.
Antroposophy to me -although not a member or adept- seems more open than Blavatsky's Theosophy,too much entangled in Buddhism and Hinduism. (and I tried to read "Secret Doctrine " but didn't undertstand 10% of what she meant..)
Now the use of reference to Jesus and Christ is NOT a sign or recognition that Anthroposophy is a religion -it's rather the opposite ,in that it tries to explain and educate people to an open and unbiased spirituality and philosophy.
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:58 am



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 34):
Quoting Toast (Reply 33):
(making some pretty big mistakes in the process)

Like which ones? Can you prove such "big mistakes" with A 100% accuracy ?

You see, that's where atheist/agnostic scientists became a bit agitated. Apparently it's OK for religion to have a vague idea of "certainty" but for science to disprove any of it, it has to do so 100%, even if it shows some major discrepancies along the way, such as the age of the earth, the heliocentric solar system, evolution of species over millions of years, etc.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 31):
There is no warranty. Not even science can give you a 100% warranty about many things.

True, but science doesn't accept a few percent certainty as "proof enough". When science isn't certain it says so and doesn't try to stop people doubting (until politics becomes involved, of course).

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 29):
plus the possibility that the Church has edited out parts of the gospels, that e.g. say that women aren't banned from officiating mass or becoming priests (a kind of censorship that may have been applied by the Church in its beginning to fully consolidate patriarchical rule). I feel that the Church has never been fully honest with the people.

...

Besides, the gospels have been written a long time after Christ had died on the cross, so in the end, there may be the assumption that by the time Mark, Matthew, Luke and John wrote their respective gospels, that they may not have remembered everything and thus left out certain details (apart from the mentioned possible censorship by the Church).

 thumbsup 
 
zTagged
Posts: 354
Joined: Sun Oct 28, 2007 5:59 am

RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:09 am



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 7):
Women should just stay in the kitchen where they belong.

But then A.net would run out of female pilots to fap to.  crazy   rotfl 
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 3:24 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 34):
Like which ones?

I'd have to go down to the basement and dig up my old Bible Translation manuals, but off the top of my head I can give you two amusing anecdotes I still remember.

"It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God". This oft-quoted phrase seems like a quaint middle-eastern expression, and has lead to much speculation whether or not Jesus was referring to a physical place (perhaps a gate in Jerusalem) called Needle's Eye or some such. The truth is much simpler, it's a mistranslation. The original word in Aramaic, written without vocalization, was "GAMAL" (spelled "GML"). What the translator (I think it was St. Jerome, but I may be wrong) did not know Aramaic well enough to realize GaMaL, a near homonym, meant "rope", which of course would make the phrase instantly unambiguous. However, given that his Vulgata became the canonical translation centuries before the advancement of linguistics, the error stuck.

Have you seen that famous statue of Moses by Michelangelo in Rome? He has two short horns sticking out of his head, following the prevalent iconography of that time that was due to some passage in the Bible describing his appearance (don't remember which passage). Even Sigmund Freud wrote a whole paper on the appearance of that statue. Well, Moses wouldn't look that horny today if the word for "horns" was translated correctly, i.e., as "rays of light". The error was due once again to the original text written in pure abjad, which flattened out the differences between many similar words.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 34):
Can you prove such "big mistakes" with A 100% accuracy ?

There is no such thing as 100% accuracy in science, certainly not in linguistics. At any time, archeologists may dig up some scrolls which could tell us, for instance, that GML also meant, say, "silk bra" in the Galilean dialect. That's what science is all about. When new evidence turns up, it's analyzed and if deemed almost certainly correct, will replace older theories without qualms.

To be fair, the Catholic Church does that, too. Yes, it took them 500 years to admit Galileo was right, but who's in a hurry?

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 34):
Simply ignore us. That's my advise.

I prefer to make fun of religion. Yeah I know, it's an unmoving target with a planet-sized bull's eye painted on it, so it's really too easy, but I'm a cruel bastard.  Wink

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 34):
Many are dedicated to that [specially Jesuits]. To study the sacred scriptures.

Unfortunately, very few Catholics ever get the benefit of receiving the kind of religious education Jesuits do.

Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 35):
Le Christ Jesus montre en effet aux yeux de tous ce que chaque homme peut devenir s'il se comprend lui-meme : un porteur libre et conscient du " Je suis ". Il a fallu pour cela qu'un dieu, le Christ, apparaisse sur la scene de l'histoire et vive pendant trois ans le destin d'un homme, Jesus, de Nazareth.

Un peu trop esotherique pour moi.  Smile
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:20 pm



Quoting FlyboyOz (Reply 30):
It said that Mary (an ex-prostitute and Mary Magdalene) may be the first woman to be the leader or priest.

She never was a priest. Now she's saint Mary Magdalene.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:51 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 39):
She never was a priest.

There is no corroborative eye-witness testimony as to whether she was or wasn't. Or that she existed at all. All we have are stories written, re-written, edited, expurgated, censored and politically re-engineered hundreds of years after the facts of the case. The theory, fanciful or not, that Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife, and possibly also a leader of the Church, is no less valid and no less well documented than any other Biblical "fact".
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:12 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 40):
There is no corroborative eye-witness testimony as to whether she was or wasn't. Or that she existed at all.

Do you think the same about Luke, Mathew, John, Mark? And Judas Iscariot ? Or Pontius Pilatus?
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:24 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 41):
Do you think the same about Luke, Mathew, John, Mark? And Judas Iscariot ? Or Pontius Pilatus?

Actually yes. We must consider contemporary sources when assessing any historical evidence. If I recall correctly, Pontius Pilate's existence has been documented independently in Tacitus, and on contemporary inscriptions but there is very little other validated documentary evidence to describe his life or actions. Apocryphal texts and potentially interpolated references in Josephus are pretty much all we have. As to the rest, the gospels ascribed to them were apparently written decades or even longer after the events they claim to describe, so it is not really known for sure who wrote them at all. As the gospels are the only sources that refer to these people, their existence cannot be considered as conclusively proven or otherwise.
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Why Is Religion A Men's Business..?

Sat Dec 01, 2007 10:50 pm

"Mary Magdalen was so called either from Magdala near Tiberias, on the west shore of Galilee, or possibly from a Talmudic expression meaning "curling women's hair," which the Talmud explains as of an adulteress.

In the New Testament she is mentioned among the women who accompanied Christ and ministered to Him (Luke 8:2-3), where it is also said that seven devils had been cast out of her (Mark 16:9). She is next named as standing at the foot of the cross (Mark 15:40; Matthew 27:56; John 19:25; Luke 23:49). She saw Christ laid in the tomb, and she was the first recorded witness of the Resurrection.

The Greek Fathers, as a whole, distinguish the three persons:

* the "sinner" of Luke 7:36-50;
* the sister of Martha and Lazarus, Luke 10:38-42 and John 11; and
* Mary Magdalen. "

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09761a.htm

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