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cannibalz3
Topic Author
Posts: 382
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 2:10 pm

The War On Drugs

Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:35 pm

That post about marijuana got me thinking. Billions of dollars a year, hundreds of thousands imprisoned a year, drugs are still easy to find. We're fighting a war against ourselves and funding both sides of it. You know my view on it. What's yours?
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8571
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RE: The War On Drugs

Sat Dec 01, 2007 8:50 pm

The War on Drugs Clock

Should give away my view. .
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
b752fanatic
Posts: 892
Joined: Thu Jul 17, 2003 1:44 am

RE: The War On Drugs

Sat Dec 01, 2007 9:26 pm

A pity that our tax money is spent on this "war" on drugs yet we must admit that it is as un-winable as the war on "terror". I am afraid that what we have is a another perpetual war, and a lot of people make money out of it, it seems a great cause because it might look towards reducing drug trade. However one must in order to accomplish something or try to diminish it, go towards the root of the problem, which is in the case of the "war on drugs" would be in trying to reduce the demand, as long as there is a demand, there would always be a supply (law of economics).
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: The War On Drugs

Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:13 pm

Hey, I got an idea, let's legalize it! That way those nasty gangs and dealers and bikers will all stop breaking the law and take up knitting tea cozies for the old folks home. And all the taxes generated (because we all know addicts are tax paying, law abiding citizens) can pay for the all the treatment centers, and divorce courts, etc. Where do I sign?
Seriously, I don't know the answer, but giving up doesn't sound right to me.
While you're at it, open all your borders, get rid of immigration laws, and stop enforcing any laws short of perhaps, murder. Why fight a difficult battle when giving up is so much easier? Our forefathers must be rolling in their graves.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: The War On Drugs

Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:25 pm



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 3):
Hey, I got an idea, let's legalize it! That way those nasty gangs and dealers and bikers will all stop breaking the law and take up knitting tea cozies for the old folks home. And all the taxes generated (because we all know addicts are tax paying, law abiding citizens) can pay for the all the treatment centers, and divorce courts, etc. Where do I sign?
Seriously, I don't know the answer, but giving up doesn't sound right to me.

What part of any of that is actually unreasonable ? Yes, it's true, criminality itself will not cease, but the actual CRIMES can be addressed, rather than the pseudo-crime of minor possession or dealing. Major crimes like murder and theft are often linked to the criminal organisations who deal in illegal drugs. If drugs were not illegal, the criminality surrounding drugs themselves would become moot. That is not to say that these people won't turn to doing something else illegal, but let us divorce the criminality of drug-RELATED crime with the criminality of drugs themselves.

Similarly, the tax issue. There is a HUGE black-market in untaxed cigarettes - no argument there. But governments do sitll rake in huge amounts of tax revenue from "legitimate" cigarette sales. A simpler arrangment would be to tax the cigarette producers for each cigarette produced, that way the taxes are taken at source, and the onus would be on the producers to recuperate the tax along with all the other costs when they sell to retailers, and it would not matter how the cigarettes reached the general public. The same could be done for manufacturers of legalised narcotics.

There is no failure in abandoning a completely lost cause - societies change, things that were "morally unacceptible" 50 years ago are commonplace now, and the world has not spun off its axis. Societies also adapt.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: The War On Drugs

Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:40 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 4):
What part of any of that is actually unreasonable ?

My biggest problem is that people are making a conscious decision to break the law, we are going to say "go ahead, we can't be bothered to stop you."
It's similar to parents being lazy and not disciplining their kids,and look where that gets you. As a society we need to take the high ground and say "this is not acceptable" and do what we need to control it. Would you tell your kids, "go ahead and drink and do drugs, because I know you're going to anyway, and it's too hard to stop you"? That's entirely the wrong message IMHO, for kids or for society. Don't forget that society can change both ways, and things that were accepted before, like DWI, is not socially acceptable now. It doesn't have to be a downward spiral towards a totally permissive society.
Too many people need laws to protect them, and others, from themselves.
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: The War On Drugs

Sun Dec 02, 2007 12:52 am



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 5):
My biggest problem is that people are making a conscious decision to break the law, we are going to say "go ahead, we can't be bothered to stop you."

You have to differentiate between just and unjust laws. Not all laws are just, simply because someone chooses to put them on the statute books. This is true even in a democracy. Laws are made for political reasons which seem like a good idea at the time, but like all human constructs, they can be flawed, or can cease to be relevant. Look at Pass Laws in South Africa, or some of the wierd sex laws they have in the US.

Laws prohibiting the use of marijuana have become irrelevant because nobody sees any value in enforcing them. They see no value because as a crime it's pretty harmless. If the purpose of a law is to protect society, and society no longer feels any need to be protected from the threat being addressed, the law is no longer relevant, and falls into abeyance.

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 5):
Would you tell your kids, "go ahead and drink and do drugs, because I know you're going to anyway, and it's too hard to stop you"? That's entirely the wrong message IMHO, for kids or for society.

But kids DO drink, and they DO do drugs. As a parent you can inform them of the risks and the consequences of drinking, and of drugs, but unless you lock them in their rooms, it is impossible to stop them. You have to set a good example and give them the information they need to make an informed decision, but as with everything the ultimate decision is going to be theirs. This idea of "shielding" kids from alcohol until they're 21 is completely counter-productive - it creates curiosity and a mythos that is irresistible. Introducing teenagers to alcohol as something that is really no big deal as long as it is treated responsibly, is far better. It won't eliminate problems completely, but it takes away some of the mystique. Experimentation is part of growing up, you have to let kids learn for themselves sometimes.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: The War On Drugs

Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:10 am

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 5):
My biggest problem is that people are making a conscious decision to break the law

Breaking idiotic laws is a conscious citizen's DUTY. Legislation only goes one way - toward repression - if it's left unchecked by a meek population that just shrugs and says "oh well, it must be for our good after all". If all our ancestors had respected their laws unquestioningly, we'd still be living under the Code of Hammurabi.

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 5):
As a society we need to take the high ground and say "this is not acceptable"

The only actions that are not acceptable are those that harm other people.

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 5):
and do what we need to control it.



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 5):
Would you tell your kids, "go ahead and drink and do drugs, because I know you're going to anyway, and it's too hard to stop you"?

Yes, except that I wouldn't say "because it's too hard to stop you", I'd say "because all human beings are endowed with free will".

Quoting Avt007 (Reply 5):
Too many people need laws to protect them, and others, from themselves.



[Edited 2007-12-01 17:39:15]
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: The War On Drugs

Sun Dec 02, 2007 2:32 am



Quoting Toast (Reply 7):
Breaking idiotic laws is a conscious citizen's DUTY.

Try telling that to the judge and see how far it gets you.......
 Smile  Smile
I'll agree to disagree with you, and leave it at that.
 
Nuori5084
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:25 am

RE: The War On Drugs

Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:07 am

It will NEVER be defeated; much like terrorism.

It has to do with how wide spread it is and the smuggling that occurs day in and day out that goes virtually undetected. There are far more violators than prosecutors...it's about numbers and going after the king pins.
Failure to plan on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3973
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2001 10:00 pm

RE: The War On Drugs

Sun Dec 02, 2007 11:27 am



Quoting Avt007 (Reply 5):
My biggest problem is that people are making a conscious decision to break the law, we are going to say "go ahead, we can't be bothered to stop you."

If you drive 5 over the limit you won't be stopped because the hassle to the cop of stopping you and sorting out the paperwork is not worth it. Why not do the same to someone posessing small quantities of soft drugs for personnel use only.
The first thing to remember is always treat your kite like you treat your woman.
Get inside her five times a day and take her to heaven and back!
Lord Flashheart, 1989
 
ltbewr
Posts: 15335
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:24 pm

RE: The War On Drugs

Sun Dec 02, 2007 1:22 pm

As others have noted, we will never win the war on drugs we designate as illegal, much like we will never win the war on terrorism, by policing, jails, and military power. The only way is for cutting demand, taking away the key motive for their existence.
We have seen demand for most illegal drugs drop over the last generation in large parts due to both education and testing at workplaces, schools and organizations. Many jobs where lives or money are at risk require drug testing. That gives a substantial incentive to stay away from illegal drug use. Still, we have a long way to go and must not fail to continue sound education and testing programs, especially working with parents and other adult leaders.
I don't believe that possession of small quanties of pot should ruin a persons life unless it's use puts others at danger (such as driving) or does so repeatably. We should encourage needle exchange programs as to hard drugs, but mainly to channel users into long term rehab. I don't want to see random testing for drugs or alcohol without reasonable cause or well understood by all parties or may be required by law at workplaces or schools. Many who use illegal drugs have serious psychological and mental illness, pain control problems, or live in environments where illegal drug use is practically normal as well as in places where drug dealers are the only ones with the money.
Hard drugs, especially methahpenene, have terrible addictive properties with horrible health and enviormental side effects as well as huge amounts of ancillary crime, so must continue to be illegal. Although often promoted to kill off the 'drug wars', I don't want to see legalizing and taxing of the drugs we consider to be illegal at this time except for very limited programs as prescriptions with a doctor's management.

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