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sleekjet
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:05 am

I suggest you read the Acts of the Apostles and notice the baptisms. They all involved adults...and there was a sense of urgency for those adults to get the baptism accomplished soon. I can't put myself in God's domain and say that a lack of baptism will doom you, but why would one want to take that chance?
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JGPH1A
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:41 am



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 65):
...The Catechism, however, adds an italicized caution: "God has bound salvation to the Sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments" (No. 1257). Besides the normal ritual baptism of water and the invocation of the Holy Trinity, the Church has also accepted two other forms of Baptism — a baptism of blood and a baptism of desire. While these two forms are not the Sacrament of Baptism per se, they do render the same graces and effects (Catechism, No. 1258)....

..."However, such a statement should not seduce us into an indifferentism where one thinks that Baptism is either not important or optional: Baptism is the sacrament which infuses the divine life of the Holy Trinity into our soul and opens to us fully the mystery of Christ's passion, death, and resurrection. Through the nourishment of grace from the reception of other sacraments, the study of the faith, and our life within the Church, we live our Baptism looking forward to its fulfillment in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Yes but this is all made-up Church nonsense, wisdom gained from excessive navel-gazing, too much scripture and not enough healthy exercise out of doors. You can interpret the Bible till the cows come home, it's sufficiently vague and self-contradictory to allow literally infinite interpretations. What does the Bible actually say ?
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TACAA320
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:59 pm

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 71):

Yes but this is all made-up Church nonsense, wisdom gained from excessive navel-gazing, too much scripture and not enough healthy exercise out of doors.

This maybe make nonsense to you.

It is your respectable opinion.

I simply "don't share your opinion". The key word here is "respect".

"Respect for others opinion".

Regarding your question about "What does the Bible actually say ?"
"Actually". Could you please elaborate a little more this question? Thanks.

I'm Roman Catholic. I'm practicing [or trying harder to] their principles. I feel "happy" [good, even plenty] with that, and nobody [until today] has been successful trying to change my mind with arguments like yours.

I wish you the best. Always!

Edited: typo.

[Edited 2007-12-04 06:27:40]

[Edited 2007-12-04 06:30:59]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:36 pm



Quoting BilgeRat (Thread starter):
I've never been baptised. Will I go to Hell?

Just a couple of question to you Bilgerat [specifically]: Do you believe in hell ? and what is "hell" according to you?
Thanks.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
SBBRTech
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:05 pm



Quoting BilgeRat (Thread starter):
She thinks I should be baptised as some form of "protection".

Only if they provide you with an assassin monk as body guard like the albino guy from DaVinci Code....
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:37 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 72):
Regarding your question about "What does the Bible actually say ?"
"Actually". Could you please elaborate a little more this question? Thanks.

I think it's quite clear. What does the Bible, and only the Bible, not someone's commentary, or analysis, or lengthy Byzantine tome, say on the subject of the necessity of baptism to receive redemption ?
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TACAA320
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:47 pm

You'll find someones here.

http://home.att.net/~nathan.wilson/baptism.htm

[Edited 2007-12-04 12:58:28]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:56 pm

Wow - that's a lot of quotes. A lot of them are from the letters of Paul though, which we can discount - Paul had his own agenda which had precious little to do with the the words of Christ. Similarly, none of the old testament stuff is relevant, all that dipping in oil - nice for an appetizer, but not really germane to the issue.

Does it, anywhere in the actual Gospels, say that you have to be baptised to be saved ? From the relevant quotes you have provided, this is not clear.
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TACAA320
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:59 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 77):
this is not clear.

It is to me.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:13 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 78):
It is to me.

Care to enlighten the heathen ?
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jetjack74
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Tue Dec 04, 2007 9:23 pm

You'll video footage of my baptism here
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Jpax
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:15 am

I was baptized and the priest got the water in my eyes. Cry fest followed. Later had first holy communion and confirmed.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:37 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 77):
A lot of them are from the letters of Paul though, which we can discount - Paul had his own agenda which had precious little to do with the the[sic] words of Christ.

Not agree with that.

"St. Paul, the indefatigable Apostle of the Gentiles, was converted from Judaism on the road to Damascus. He remained some days in Damascus after his Baptism, and then went to Arabia, possibly for a year or two to prepare himself for his future missionary activity. Having returned to Damascus, he stayed there for a time, preaching in the synagogues that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. For this he incurred the hatred of the Jews and had to flee from the city. He then went to Jerusalem to see Peter and pay his homage to the head of the Church.

Later he went back to his native Tarsus, where he began to evangelize his own province until called by Barnabus to Antioch. After one year, on the occasion of a famine, both Barnabus and Paul were sent with alms to the poor Christian community at Jerusalem. Having fulfilled their mission they returned to Antioch.

Soon after this, Paul and Barnabus made the first missionary journey, visiting the island of Cypress, then Pamphylia, Pisidia, and Lycaonia, all in Asia Minor, and establishing churches at Pisidian Antioch, Iconium, Lystra, and Derbe.

After the Apostolic Council of Jerusalem Paul, accompanied by Silas and later also by Timothy and Luke, made his second missionary journey, first revisiting the churches previously established by him in Asia Minor, and then passing through Galatia. At Troas a vision of a Macedonian was had by Paul, which impressed him as a call from God to evangelize in Macedonia. He accordingly sailed for Europe, and preached the Gospel in Philippi. Thessalonica, Beroea, Athens, and Corinth. Then he returned to Antioch by way of Ephesus and Jerusalem.

On his third missionary journey, Paul visited nearly the same regions as on the second trip, but made Ephesus where he remained nearly three years, the center of his missionary activity. He laid plans also for another missionary journey, intending to leave Jerusalem for Rome and Spain. Persecutions by the Jews hindered him from accomplishing his purpose. After two years of imprisonment at Caesarea he finally reached Rome, where he was kept another two years in chains.

The Acts of the Apostles gives us no further information on the life of the Apostle. We gather, however, from the Pastoral Epistles and from tradition that at the end of the two years St. Paul was released from his Roman imprisonment, and then traveled to Spain, later to the East again, and then back to Rome, where he was imprisoned a second time and in the year 67, was beheaded.."

http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=91

"From St. Paul himself we know that he was born at Tarsus in Cilicia (Acts 21:39), of a father who was a Roman citizen (Acts 22:26-28; cf. 16:37), of a family in which piety was hereditary (2 Timothy 1:3) and which was much attached to Pharisaic traditions and observances (Philippians 3:5-6).

St. Jerome relates, on what ground is not known, that his parents were natives of Gischala, a small town of Galilee and that they brought him to Tarsus when Gischala was captured by the Romans ("De vir. ill.", v; "In epist. ad Phil.", 23). This last detail is certainly an anachronism, but the Galilean origin of the family is not at all improbable.

As he belonged to the tribe of Benjamin he was given at the time of his circumcision the name of Saul, which must have been common in that tribe in memory of the first king of the Jews (Philippians 3:5). As a Roman citizen he also bore the Latin name of Paul. It was quite usual for the Jews of that time to have two names, one Hebrew, the other Latin or Greek, between which there was often a certain assonance and which were joined together exactly in the manner made use of bySt. Luke ( Acts 13:9: Saulos ho kai Paulos). See on this point Deissmann, "Bible Studies" (Edinburgh, 1903, 313-17.) It was natural that in inaugurating his apostolate among the Gentiles Paul should have adopted his Roman name, especially as the name Saul had a ludicrous meaning in Greek.

As every respectable Jew had to teach his son a trade, young Saul learned how to make tents (Acts 18:3) or rather to make the mohair of which tents were made (cf. Lewin, "Life of St. Paul", I, London, 1874, 8-9). He was still very young when sent to Jerusalem to receive his education at the school of Gamaliel (Acts 22:3). Possibly some of his family resided in the holy city; later there is mention of the presence of one of his sisters whose son saved his life (Acts 23:16).

From that time it is absolutely impossible to follow him until he takes an active part in the martyrdom of St. Stephen (Acts 7:58-60; 22:20). He was then qualified as a young man (neanias), but this was very elastic appellation and might be applied to a man between twenty and forty. "
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11567b.htm
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:01 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 59):
Quoting AviRaider (Reply 58):
No, baptism does not determine your salvation.

I seem to recall the Bible saying that it actually does. I don't remember chapter and verse, but it does say so.

John 3:5

"

Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257).

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

As the following passages from the works of the Church Fathers illustrate, Christians have always believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood. ..."

"


The Necessity of Baptism


Christians have always interpreted the Bible literally when it declares, "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet. 3:21; cf. Acts 2:38, 22:16, Rom. 6:3–4, Col. 2:11–12).

Thus the early Church Fathers wrote in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 381), "We believe in one baptism for the forgiveness of sins."

And the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "The Lord himself affirms that baptism is necessary for salvation [John 3:5]. . . . Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament [Mark 16:16]" (CCC 1257).

The Christian belief that baptism is necessary for salvation is so unshakable that even the Protestant Martin Luther affirmed the necessity of baptism. He wrote: "Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself. Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent, glorious, and exalted" (Large Catechism 4:6).

Yet Christians have also always realized that the necessity of water baptism is a normative rather than an absolute necessity. There are exceptions to water baptism: It is possible to be saved through "baptism of blood," martyrdom for Christ, or through "baptism of desire", that is, an explicit or even implicit desire for baptism.

Thus the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized" (CCC 1281; the salvation of unbaptized infants is also possible under this system; cf. CCC 1260–1, 1283).

As the following passages from the works of the Church Fathers illustrate, Christians have always believed in the normative necessity of water baptism, while also acknowledging the legitimacy of baptism by desire or blood.



Hermas


"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which took place when we went down into the water and obtained the remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).



Justin Martyr


"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).



Tertullian


"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).

"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).

"We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50], when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been received, and restores it when it has been lost" (ibid., 16).



Hippolytus


"[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us: ‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living water for his own salvation" (Homilies 11:26 [A.D. 217]).



Origen


"It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism" (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"[T]he baptism of public witness and of blood cannot profit a heretic unto salvation, because there is no salvation outside the Church." (Letters 72[73]:21 [A.D. 253]).

"[Catechumens who suffer martyrdom] are not deprived of the sacrament of baptism. Rather, they are baptized with the most glorious and greatest baptism of blood, concerning which the Lord said that he had another baptism with which he himself was to be baptized [Luke 12:50]" (ibid., 72[73]:22).



Cyril of Jerusalem


"If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation. The only exception is the martyrs, who even without water will receive the kingdom.
. . . For the Savior calls martyrdom a baptism, saying, ‘Can you drink the cup which I drink and be baptized with the baptism with which I am to be baptized [Mark 10:38]?’ Indeed, the martyrs too confess, by being made a spectacle to the world, both to angels and to men [1 Cor. 4:9]" (Catechetical Lectures 3:10 [A.D. 350]).



Gregory Nazianz


"[Besides the baptisms associated with Moses, John, and Jesus] I know also a fourth baptism, that by martyrdom and blood, by which also Christ himself was baptized. This one is far more august than the others, since it cannot be defiled by later sins" (Oration on the Holy Lights 39:17 [A.D. 381]).



Pope Siricius


"It would tend to the ruin of our souls if, from our refusal of the saving font of baptism to those who seek it, any of them should depart this life and lose the kingdom and eternal life" (Letter to Himerius 3 [A.D. 385]).



John Chrysostom


"Do not be surprised that I call martyrdom a baptism, for here too the Spirit comes in great haste and there is the taking away of sins and a wonderful and marvelous cleansing of the soul, and just as those being baptized are washed in water, so too those being martyred are washed in their own blood" (Panegyric on St. Lucian 2 [A.D. 387]).



Ambrose of Milan


"But I hear you lamenting because he [the Emperor Valentinian] had not received the sacraments of baptism. Tell me, what else could we have, except the will to it, the asking for it? He too had just now this desire, and after he came into Italy it was begun, and a short time ago he signified that he wished to be baptized by me. Did he, then, not have the grace which he desired? Did he not have what he eagerly sought? Certainly, because he sought it, he received it. What else does it mean: ‘Whatever just man shall be overtaken by death, his soul shall be at rest [Wis. 4:7]’?" (Sympathy at the Death of Valentinian [A.D. 392]).



Augustine


"There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized" (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).

"I do not hesitate to put the Catholic catechumen, burning with divine love, before a baptized heretic. Even within the Catholic Church herself we put the good catechumen ahead of the wicked baptized person. . . . For Cornelius, even before his baptism, was filled up with the Holy Spirit [Acts 10:44–48], while Simon [Magus], even after his baptism, was puffed up with an unclean spirit [Acts 8:13–19]" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:21:28 [A.D. 400]).

"That the place of baptism is sometimes supplied by suffering is supported by a substantial argument which the same blessed Cyprian draws from the circumstance of the thief, to whom, although not baptized, it was said, ‘Today you shall be with me in paradise’ [Luke 23:43]. Considering this over and over again, I find that not only suffering for the name of Christ can supply for that which is lacking by way of baptism, but even faith and conversion of heart [i.e., baptism of desire] if, perhaps, because of the circumstances of the time, recourse cannot be had to the celebration of the mystery of baptism" (ibid., 4:22:29).

"When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body. . . . All who are within [the Church] in heart are saved in the unity of the ark [by baptism of desire]" (ibid., 5:28:39).

"[According to] apostolic tradition . . . the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal. This is the witness of Scripture too" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:24:34 [A.D. 412]).

"Those who, though they have not received the washing of regeneration, die for the confession of Christ—it avails them just as much for the forgiveness of their sins as if they had been washed in the sacred font of baptism. For he that said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he will not enter the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], made an exception for them in that other statement in which he says no less generally, ‘Whoever confesses me before men, I too will confess him before my Father, who is in heaven’ [Matt. 10:32]" (The City of God 13:7 [A.D. 419]). "

http://www.catholic.com/library/Necessity_of_Baptism.asp
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:46 am

After the Fall, man was totally incapable of pleasing God on his own. Through Incarnation of the Second Person, and most particularly in His passion, death, and resurrection, God made it possible for man to return to favor with God.

Each of us is born in a fallen state, not pleasing to the eyes of God and not able to enter Heaven. When and how God chooses, He gives to each person (at least adults) four things:

1) The recognition that God is good
2) The desire to please God
3) The ability to will to please God
4) The ability to put that will to please into effect.

The only thing we can put into the process on our own is in step 3. God is moving the will (freely) to faith, but the will can (freely) refuse it. The only thing we can do to the process on our own is to derail it.

When a person wills to please God, God moves him to seek baptism, because that is what God established as the normal means to begin our life of grace. When a person is baptized, God comes--all three divine Persons--and takes up life in his soul. That divine life becomes a principle of activity for the person, giving the desire and the ability to please God on an habitual basis. That desire and ability translate into good works, which are good precisely because it is God's grace which makes them possible and God's glory which is their goal. They are our works secondarily, because we can refuse to cooperate with that grace, but good works are always God's before they are ours.

As we cooperate with God's grace, it becomes a habit, and we are able to become more and more responsive instruments of God's grace. He responds by giving us more and more grace, so that His divine life is ever more present in our lives. His grace transforms us into something that is truly pleasing to Him.

When we fall from grace, sinning so badly that the divine life is not able to continue in our souls, God offers us again the grace to repent and return to Him. This happens much as in the initial process leading to baptism, but this time the process leads to the sacrament of Confession.

We cannot ever earn the right to die in a state of grace. No amount of merit on our part--even merits based principally on God's actions of grace--is sufficient. We can only pray that God will give us this final gift.

All things pleasing to God begin with Him, take place through Him, and end with Him. The only actions that are truly entirely our own and not His before they are ours, are our sins.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:56 am

The orthodox Roman Catholic position (and I was baptised a Roman Catholic as I said before) any unborn child that died in-utero would be saved by default rather than be left in limbo. This itself is to do with the free will argument since, for Roman Catholics, free will would not have been totally destroyed at the fall of Adam, though we all stained with original sin. However, saving still requires God's direct intervention.

On the Protestant side things are a little more difficult. The Calvinists believe in double predestination; one is either a member of the elect or one is damned for all eternity - a decision made before we are born. Therefore, for the Calvinist the unborn child would either be saved or damned in accordance with whether it was a member of the elect or not.

Lutherans, on the other hand, only believe in single predestination; one may be predestined to be a member of the elect, but one is not automatically damned if not. Therefore, from the Lutheran perspective, the child is either saved by being a predetermined member of the elect or at God's good pleasure if not. On balance, the majority of Lutherans would I think believe that the default would be the same as the Roman Catholic position, though for slightly different reasons.

The Arminian position would be similar to that of the Lutherans, although they maintain the heretical position that one can choose to come to God; i.e., that one is saved through works rather than through faith alone.

Edited: typo.

[Edited 2007-12-11 23:09:14]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:01 am

The Catholic position is the one that gives true assurance. How does a child know that his father is his father? Does he require a DNA test? No. A child has assurance that he is his father’s son because he lives in his father’s house; we live in our Father's house: the church. He eats at his father’s dinner table; we eat at our Father's table: the Eucharist. His father disciplines the child; our Father disciplines us. The child’s mother is his father’s spouse; Mary – our spiritual mother - is the "spouse of the Holy Spirit" (cf. Luke, chapter 1). The child knows his father is his father because he is born into his family; we are born into God’s family through baptism.
The Catholic position is the one that gives true assurance because it is the only one that has objective proof that we have received God's grace: the Sacraments. We have assurance that this status is irrevocable; baptism leaves an indelible mark on the soul. This is why the baptized that choose to renounce their inheritance and their Father suffer more (in Hell) than the unbaptized. The Catholic position is not based on subjective feelings of being regenerated without tangible evidence; the human heart is deceitful. We know we are sons and daughters through baptism. But sons and daughters that, if they wish, are free to choose the fodder for pigs, instead of the feasts of their Father's house. Mortal sin means spitting in your Father’s face and telling Him that you do not want your inheritance; and that you want to worship yourself instead. All who are in Hell deliberately chose to be there; no one goes to Hell on accident.
God’s sovereignty is too fragile if He cannot allow us free will. Does God want to sneak a bunch of dirty sinners into Heaven who are no more than robots without free will? Or does God want to raise up sons and daughters whom He glorifies and empowers with his own Divine life - including free will - to choose Him freely or reject Him freely? We did not get free will on our own; it is God's gift. If man has no free will, and is saved apart from any cooperation with grace, then the reprobate is also damned apart from any free will. This makes God the author of evil; which in my opinion is blasphemy! The Catholic position is all that we are that is good is a gift of God's grace; but we also have the ability to reject grace. How the two can exist together is a mystery. Calvinists try to argue that even though God is the author of evil, He is so in a way that does not make Him responsible for it. While this is an attempt to avoid impugning the integrity of God, I don’t believe that it avoids the anomaly in the Calvinist position and is, I believe, an attempt to affirm free will without admitting it. The Catholic position - including the mystery of free will - is the only way to avoid impugning God’s integrity and affirming the dignity of man; who is not a robot, but rather, made in the image of God.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
jafa39
Posts: 4320
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:14 pm

RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 9:50 am



Quoting BilgeRat (Thread starter):
Have You Been Baptised?

Yes but it was along time ago!

Quoting BilgeRat (Thread starter):
I've never been baptised. Will I go to Hell?

Well, give us a list of all the weird shit you've been up to and we'll take a vote on it  Wink
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:59 am



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 87):
Well, give us a list of all the weird shit you've been up to and we'll take a vote on it

Bags me be the one do decide his penance (it won't be rosaries, that's for sure !)
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
redngold
Posts: 6686
Joined: Wed Mar 22, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:19 am



Quoting BilgeRat (Thread starter):
I right to refuse to take part in something I really don't believe in?

You have free will to make that decision on your own.

As for me, I've been baptised twice... Once as an infant, without a free will choice; and again when I was about 25 years old, in public in church by my own free will. Before my second baptism I wrote to my family explaining my reasons for being rebaptised, and found that they all supported me, to my relief. In short, I wanted it to be a expression of my own faith, an affirmation, and an opportunity to act in faith.
Up, up and away!
 
milan320
Posts: 821
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:25 pm

RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:42 am

I was baptized when I was 5 years old ... my mum basically forgot  Smile. Although both parents have been baptized Catholic, they're agnostic anyway ... Strange to remember my own baptism  Wink
/Milan320
I accept bribes ... :-)
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:55 am



Quoting Redngold (Reply 89):

As for me, I've been baptised twice...

That's great.

Quoting Redngold (Reply 89):
Before my second baptism I wrote to my family explaining my reasons for being rebaptised, and found that they all supported me, to my relief. In short, I wanted it to be a expression of my own faith, an affirmation, and an opportunity to act in faith.

That's definitely an act of faith.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
User avatar
fxramper
Posts: 5839
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2005 12:03 pm

RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:08 am

I think I was 7 when I asked Jesus Christ to be my Lord and Savior and was baptised at my local church.

A top ten in my life.

 yes 
 
vaporlock
Posts: 3528
Joined: Sat May 19, 2001 9:22 am

RE: Have You Been Baptised?

Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:56 am



Quoting BilgeRat (Thread starter):
I've never been baptised. Will I go to Hell?

Nope....

Quoting Superfly (Reply 4):
I was baptised as a Roman Catholic.
Served as an Altar Boy, went through confession and even confirmation and look at how I turned out.

Fly, you turned out just fine!!! And you won't be going to hell either!!

Oh, and I have never been baptized and I won't be going to hell either!!!

Vaporlock  bouncy 

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