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Superfly
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Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:11 pm

I went to the auto show here in San Francisco yesterday. Granted we are a 2nd. tier city in terms of auto shows but I was disturbed at how stripped down this show was. There were so many models that were not present. Specifically the Panther platform (Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis and Town Car).
The Grand Marquis and Town Car is the top selling model for Mercury and Lincoln. The Police Interceptor was on display in back for the fleet vehicles.
I took this opportunity to pick apart the ‘brains’ currently at Ford. I asked the grueling questions about product placement, future of Mercury and the Panther platform.
The lame excuse I was told was that ‘space’ was the reason why those three cars were not on display (that was a total lie as they had plenty of floor space).
I found the oldest grey-haired guy at the Lincoln-Mercury showcase to ask some grueling questions and give some suggestions since I am a loyalist.
I wanted to know why Lincoln gave up on competing in the high-end luxury car market. He gave me a lame excuse and claimed that Lincoln has always competed against Acura over the last 40 years!
HELLO?!?!?!
Acura has only been around for 20 years.
He then tells me that the new Lincoln MK-S is the new flagship Lincoln. I told him that it would be better off crushed and turned in to a beer can or re-badge and called a Ford Futura or Mercury (fill in the blank) but not worthy of wearing the Lincoln badge.
I also pointed out that the MK-X had a beautiful grille but that grill should be on the current Town Car.

My suggestions were to;
-put the 2004 Lincoln Continental concept car in to production
-Make a station wagon version of the current Mercury Grand Marquis. Raise it only 2”, put Colony Park wood grain side panels, ski rack, drop in the current 5.4 liter V8 and optional Power stroke diesel and dress up the interior with the current Kings Ranch interior that is available in the F-250/350/450 heavy duty pick-up trucks.
Since all of my suggestions were all from the current parts bin at Ford, they knew I was on to something and just wanted me to leave.

The decisions by Ford over the last 3 years have been so out of character for this brand. They have always been America’s best car brand. My suspicion is that some nuts from GM, Procter & Gamble or Amway have infiltrated the company. They have been making some dumb decisions.
The only highlight was the Ford Flex. It is a decent looking vehicle if you have a family. All it needs is wood grain side panels and it would be a respectable vehicle.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v416/Superfly8track/Autoshow022.jpg
 
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falstaff
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:20 pm



Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
The only highlight was the Ford Flex. It is a decent looking vehicle if you have a family. All it needs is wood grain side panels and it would be a respectable vehicle.

There will be a Lincoln version of that. I don't know what it is called, but I saw some bodies for it at Detroit Testing Laboratory back in October.

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
Crown Victoria, Grand Marquis and Town Car

It is the end of the line for the Crown Vic, it is only a fleet car now.

The Grand Marquis/Town Car are my favorite Fords. I owned a 2000 Grand Marquis. It was a nice car, but had a lot of fit and finish problems. I sold the car when it was four year old.
 
scrubbsywg
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:23 pm

wow, is it normal at autoshows to pose such questions to the people working the booths?

and i hope to never see wooden side panels on cars again, it is so tacky.


and the vrown vic is becoming a fleet only vehicle, so maybe that's why they didn't have one.
 
MCOflyer
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:24 pm

The only good current models Ford builds in the Fusion, E series vans, F series trucks, and new focus. I am surprised by this as well and think you should go for work for Ford. They lack one thing: Listening to customers for their luxury cars.

Hunter
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:28 pm

I'm a solid Ford owner . . . couldn't GIVE me a Dodge (or any other Chrysler product) and I drive a GMC (squad car), so I'm concerned at the condition of Ford these days.

I continue to appreciate Ford's Heavy Duty trucks for what they can do - none have ever let me down. Can't say the same for Chevy's or Dodges.

I could do without the faux woodgrain on ANY vehicle however . . . looks to 1970s (welcome to Larry's world  wink  ).
 
N74JW
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:33 pm

I think they could start eating Toyota's lunch if they came out with a hybrid Mk-Z (or whatever it's called).
 
deskflier
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:38 pm

The big question is, what will happen with Fords ownership of their European luxury car marques, Jaguar, Aston Martin, Volvo? Can Ford afford to keep them in the family or will they have to sell one or more. Here in Sweden there is a lot of speculation about wether Volvo will be sold or not. The hopes are quite nationalistic and involves famous Swedish entrepreneurs like IKEA founder Ingvar Kamprad. Is there any similar "silly season" concerning Jaguar or Aston in Britain?
 
Superfly
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:39 pm



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 3):
I am surprised by this as well and think you should go for work for Ford. They lack one thing: Listening to customers for their luxury cars.

 checkmark 
Considering that Ford is is important to aviation as Boeing, Wright Brothers, Fokker and others, I hope someone at Ford is trolling this site.

Yes, if I were working at Ford, things would be a lot different.
I was really taken back by the old guy that claimed to have worked with Ford for 40 years and stat that they have always competed against Acura. I may be young but I still remember with Acura was a brand new line of vehicle for Honda back in the 1980s.
The truth is that prior to the 1980s, Lincoln was indeed positioned against Jaguar, Mercedes and BMW.

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 2):
wow, is it normal at autoshows to pose such questions to the people working the booths?

The people working the booths are supposed to be knowledgeable of the product they are presenting. I've been going to car shows every since nineteen eighty three.

Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 2):
and i hope to never see wooden side panels on cars again, it is so tacky.

NO!
It's classy!  Cool

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 1):
There will be a Lincoln version of that.

Bad idea!
Lincoln has no business putting their name ona wagon. That is what Mercury is for if they want a high end wagon.
Lincoln should have a model going against the Vanden Plas, S-class, 7-series, LS460 as well as the coupes and convertibles of those brands.
 
Superfly
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:55 pm



Quoting N74jw (Reply 5):
I think they could start eating Toyota's lunch if they came out with a hybrid Mk-Z (or whatever it's called).

NO! ! ! ! !

If I hear the word hybrid again I am going to SCREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hybrid is nothing but hype and PR bull$h!t!
Until I see a movement for corporations to move back in to high-rise city centers were there is already an infrastructure in place to support commuters, I aint buying in to the hype and fortunately, MOST car buyers aren't either.
I'll elaborate more on that tomorrow
Can you believe that Lexus has a hybrid model that only gets 20MPG and sells for $115,000.00!  Cool
WTF?
Hybrid my @$$!

Quoting Deskflier (Reply 6):
The hopes are quite nationalistic and involves famous Swedish entrepreneurs like IKEA founder Ingvar Kamprad.

...and then they could be make of cheap compressed wood sold in large warehouses?



ANCFlyer:
Ford trucks are solid and the best build in the world. The problem is with their cars.
I sat in a F-450 Kings Ranch and said to myself; these appointments would be fantastic if they were in a Mercury sedan. That interior reminded me of the AMC Eagle Limited wagon and Grand Wagoneer and those were nowhere near the $63,000 asking price of a new Kigs Ranch, even adjusted for inflation.
 
tz757300
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 3:57 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Grand Wagoneer

Oh, so sexy.  bigthumbsup 
 
vc10
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:02 pm

Deskflier,

I believe that Aston Martin has already been sold off and there are bids in for Land Rover and Jaguar , with the highest bid seeming to come from India Tatra Motors I think . We have given up on any nationalistic feelings here in the UK we will sell anything.

littlevc10
 
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falstaff
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:05 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
Quoting ScrubbsYWG (Reply 2):
and i hope to never see wooden side panels on cars again, it is so tacky.

NO!
It's classy

I love plastic wood. I think a wagon with wood looks great.

Plastic wood has proven popular over the years. It was the most sold option on Chrysler Minivans until 1995. When the new van came out for 96 Chrysler was concerned that sales would drop because there was no plastic wood option. The new body line didn't allow the easy application of the "wood". You can read about it in a book called The Critical Path.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
I've been going to car shows every since nineteen eighty three.

That was the first one I remember going to. It was Corrigan Hall in Denver.
 
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asuflyer05
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:12 pm



Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
All it needs is wood grain side panels and it would be a respectable vehicle.

That's tacky. I'm not even much of a fan of wood-grain in the interior.

Ford's has a number of problems with the way they structure their product line and market it to customers.

- It is a mishmash of different products and there's no continuity between them. It's hard to convince younger customers to buy a Fusion when it's the same vehicle as the Mercury Milan which sells to the older crowd.
- Their reliability performance and 3/5 year residual values have hurt them tremendously. They lose out on much of the leasing market because their cars cannot be leased.
- They have pushed so many of their vehicles onto the fleet market that there is a constant flux of used Fords running through auctions. They tend to be less equipped models that have been beaten on for 20,000 miles. The extra supply pushes down their value and their reliability is questionable.

Take a look at the way BMW, Honda, Nissan, Toyota all capture customers and retain them. Honda captures customers in high school. They buy a Civic and drive it through college working to upgrade to the Accord. After a few years they get married, start a family and pickup a CR-V or Pilot. Then a few years down the road you see them come in to buy an Odyssey. Half the time they don't even shop different brands because their loyalty to Honda is so high. In many cases they use the same dealers so the manufacturer and dealer spend way less on advertising.

Acura does the same thing albeit at a higher price range.
 
mt99
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:23 pm

Ford is actually profitable in their finance division... Making me label them as more as a "financial company" that an"car company"
 
Superfly
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:27 pm

Asuflyer05:
Ford/Mercury/Lincoln used to do all of the above of what you have pointed out.
For what ever reason, they are ashamed of their products and keep changing their strategy every other year.

Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 12):
That's tacky. I'm not even much of a fan of wood-grain in the interior.

Even in high-end imports?

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 11):
That was the first one I remember going to. It was Corrigan Hall in Denver.

Mines was at McCormick Center in Chicago. The old black building with the long over-hang on LSD (Lake Shore Drive).

Quoting VC10 (Reply 10):
We have given up on any nationalistic feelings here in the UK we will sell anything.

Selling England by the pound?

I'll take Fergie and Baby Spice for 3 GBP.
That is about $1,000,000.00 USD now right?  

[Edited 2007-12-02 08:29:02]
 
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falstaff
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:36 pm



Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 12):
They lose out on much of the leasing market because their cars cannot be leased.

What do you mean? In today's Detroit Free Press there are lease deals all over the place, for Ford and every other kind of car.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
Quoting Asuflyer05 (Reply 12):
That's tacky. I'm not even much of a fan of wood-grain in the interior.

Even in high-end imports?

On high end cars the wood is actually real. I like the plastic stuff myself.
 
N74JW
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:38 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
NO! ! ! ! !

If I hear the word hybrid again I am going to SCREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hybrid is nothing but hype and PR bull$h!t!
Until I see a movement for corporations to move back in to high-rise city centers were there is already an infrastructure in place to support commuters, I aint buying in to the hype and fortunately, MOST car buyers aren't either.
I'll elaborate more on that tomorrow
Can you believe that Lexus has a hybrid model that only gets 20MPG and sells for $115,000.00! Cool
WTF?
Hybrid my @$$!

Sorry...

My Ford truck gets around 14mpg city. I need a truck that gets better mileage. The folks I know who own hybrids are not filling up as often as I do...

I think it is nuts to pay $115K for ANY car...
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:39 pm



Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
All it needs is wood grain side panels and it would be a respectable vehicle.



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 11):
I love plastic wood. I think a wagon with wood looks great.

Plastic wood has proven popular over the years.

What is with you people ? Only in America  Yeah sure - why would you want to drive around in an armoire ? Wood veneer belongs on IKEA furniture, not automobiles.
 
Molykote
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 4:51 pm



Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
-put the 2004 Lincoln Continental concept car in to production
-Make a station wagon version of the current Mercury Grand Marquis. Raise it only 2”, put Colony Park wood grain side panels, ski rack, drop in the current 5.4 liter V8 and optional Power stroke diesel and dress up the interior with the current Kings Ranch interior that is available in the F-250/350/450 heavy duty pick-up trucks.
Since all of my suggestions were all from the current parts bin at Ford, they knew I was on to something and just wanted me to leave.

Reminds me of the last man who tried to get a big car maker back on track with input from the field...

Big version: Width: 315 Height: 180 File size: 20kb


Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
If I hear the word hybrid again I am going to SCREAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At least we agree on this!

In my opinion, the biggest problem with most higher end Ford products is that they simply don't feel like much of a step up from the lower end products. I can't sit in a Lincoln without first noticing the cheap feeling plastics and sorry looking wood. The quality of the leather is adequate but then I notice other terribly cheap touches like the light/brittle roof liner that feels like it belongs in a cavalier. I'm also put off by the big crude plastic moldings and the panel gaps that seem to stare me right in the face (even if the gaps are not huge in all cases, they seem very "obvious"). Why does the trunk lid feel so tinny? Even if the steel thickness is comprable to other cars why doesn't Ford bother to form or coat (internally) the material in such a way that it doesn't feel like a tool shed?

What I find really striking is that I'm an engineer and am more interested in other aspects of the vehicle. However, in the case of many domestic products I can't get past the feeling of cheapness that seems to manifest itself at every touch. Most of these things I have no problem tolerating in the economy car class or entry level full size sedan, but why would I put up with this in a car costing over $50k?

I really thought Ford might be on the right track when the first Lincoln LS came out but the platform never really improved all that much from its entrance to market (and Ford never really embarked down the path of the LS). I do respect the reputation that Ford has earned in the truck market but I don't have a need for a truck in the foreseeable future.
 
sv2008
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:12 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Can you believe that Lexus has a hybrid model that only gets 20MPG and sells for $115,000.00!
WTF?
Hybrid my @$$!

Probably because it's made for performance, not economy.

I think hybrids probably won't replace conventional cars for a while, if ever, they are too heavy and too expensive - a diesel car is better, and thats what will sell. The fuel cell cars are not far away. I think they will be a better option for city cars. A hybrids main advantage then would be range (assuming petrol and diesel is too expensive in future). Even then a hybrids mpg isn't even much better.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/...ey/2007-05-18-test-drive-fcx_N.htm
 
RW170
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:33 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
why would you want to drive around in an armoire ? Wood veneer belongs on IKEA furniture, not automobiles.

 checkmark  The wood veneer is hideous! It's not 1986 anymore!
 
Superfly
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:54 am



Quoting Sv2008 (Reply 19):
Probably because it's made for performance, not economy.

No it's made for PR.
I bet none of the eco-freaks will think to protest Lexus. They assume that imports are all better, even though they aren't.

Quoting RW170 (Reply 20):
The wood veneer is hideous! It's not 1986 anymore!

Why did you pick 1986?
The wood grain side panels started some time in the 1940s and was offered on the PT Cruiser with the last few years.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 16):
My Ford truck gets around 14mpg city. I need a truck that gets better mileage.

Buy a Ford diesel F-250.

Quoting BAGoldEx (Reply 23):
The thing is, neither Boston nor San Francisco are places where it is fashionable to drive such cars and Ford understands the local market dynamic.

That has nothing to do with it. I've been going to the San Francisco auto show for 12 years and the full-sized Ford sedans were always present. If what you are say were true, why on earth was the F-450 Kings Ranch on display along with the F-250 and several other large trucks that cater to the rural markets?

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 25):
Perhaps, but what Ford really wanted prior to the 1980s was to have Lincoln compete with Cadillac and Mercury to compete with Buick/Oldsmobile.

The big three have all taken the plunge and given up on the high-end luxury market. Believe it or not, up until the 1980s, luxury car buyers cross-shopped Lincoln & Cadillac along with Mercedes and Jaguar. In the 1960s, owning a convertible Continental or Cadillac Fleetwood Series Seventy Five Limousine was a symbol of wealth and lots of class. The equivalent buyer today would buy Jaguar, BMW 7-series and Mercedes S-class.
Ford & GM could easily compete in this market if they really wanted to. Instead they waste money making Aztecs, Blackwoods, Mark LT, Escalades, Relays, Uplanders, Hummers and other useless trash.

Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 28):
I had no idea a town car or a goofy SUV really compared to anything, other than maybe Acura's goofy SUV, which is pretty

Acura has only been around for 20 years. This Ford rep at the display claimed that Lincoln has competed against Acura for 40 years.

Quoting Mir (Reply 22):
Quoting Falstaff (Reply 11):
I love plastic wood.

Why would you prefer plastic wood to the real thing?

You two set yourself up for some bad humor.  Smile
Mir please don't tell us you're coming out of the closet.  Silly
 
N74JW
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:06 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
Buy a Ford diesel F-250.

I would, but I do not have $35,000 - $40,000. Nor do I want a used vehicle with 100K on the odometer.
 
cfalk
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 12:28 pm



Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
The decisions by Ford over the last 3 years have been so out of character for this brand. They have always been America’s best car brand. My suspicion is that some nuts from GM, Procter & Gamble or Amway have infiltrated the company. They have been making some dumb decisions.

Actually, GM has improved a lot since the 80s. I still think they need to do better, but they are trying to focus Pontiac, Buick and Caddy. They used to be nothing more than cosmentic rebadges, but now they actually build in some diffenece between them.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 16):
My Ford truck gets around 14mpg city. I need a truck that gets better mileage. The folks I know who own hybrids are not filling up as often as I do...

Diesel has been around for over 100 years. Why do you need a second drivetrain which is all a hybrid is?
 
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falstaff
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:35 pm



Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 28):
and the fake wood doesn't age gracefully either.

If you keep it polished with brown shoe polish is looks great even after it ages.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
Blackwoods

That thing was useless, it was not even a 4x4

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
Blackwoods, Mark LT, Escalades

Without those you would lose the important G-thug market.  laughing 

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
The big three have all taken the plunge and given up on the high-end luxury market. Believe it or not, up until the 1980s, luxury car buyers cross-shopped Lincoln & Cadillac along with Mercedes and Jaguar

Foreign brands have done well selling their luxury cars recently and I think one reason for that is that they have been selling lots of smaller almost luxury models, like BMW 3-series and MB C class. The US manufacturers need to do a better job of that. The Cadillac Catera was a dud, but the CTS has been selling well and is a much better car.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 29):
No it's made for PR.
I bet none of the eco-freaks will think to protest Lexus. They assume that imports are all better, even though they aren't.

Very true. You never hear people complain about Toyota's gas hogs. Some people hear the word Hybrid and assume great things.
 
CaptOveur
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:48 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 32):
Without those you would lose the important G-thug market.

Leases must be more profitable than sales for Ford... You can bet the G-thugs aren't buying their navigator.
 
DucatiRacer
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:52 pm



Quoting VC10 (Reply 10):
I believe that Aston Martin has already been sold off and there are bids in for Land Rover and Jaguar

You are correct about Aston, it was out of Ford's fold as of early this year. I know that they are wanting to ditch Land Rover and Jaguar as well. As the owner of a 2004 Range Rover, I can tell you that Ford needs to shit or get off the toilet about this, as the uncertainty about the future of Land Rover is making owning one not much of a joy. When one of the best updates to a model between given years, such as is the case with the Range Rover Sport, is something so basic as a power tilt and telescope steering column - which should have been there in the first place given the price of that vehicle - you know the parent has given up on R&D and the patient is on life support. Hell, I don't believe there were any improvements to the Range Rover HSE for 2008, and the only things done since my 2004 was built was really just replacing the BMW content with electronics from Jaguar. When our lease is up on the Rover in a few months, we may just buy it outright (considering the residual is not much more than a new fully loaded Civic thanks to Land Rover's astronomical depreciation), but we will absolutely not be shopping new Rovers anytime in the foreseeable future.

I suspect the Jaguar experience is much the same. I know that despite the fact Top Gear's famous malcontent, Jeremy Clarkson, liked the new XK, the fact is that it really offers nothing over the car it replaced other than the body. How long is Jag going to continue putting out that tired 4.2 liter V-8 that only gets 300 hp? The Japanese are beating that output with nearly a liter less displacement on cars that cost half the price (or less).

Finally, the last I heard about Volvo was that BMW might be interested. Some industry-types have commented that it would be a good fit, but I certainly don't see it.
 
N74JW
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 2:55 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 31):
Diesel has been around for over 100 years. Why do you need a second drivetrain which is all a hybrid is?

Diesel is the most expensive grade of gasoline in my area ($3.14 p/gal). The average price is 10-15 cents higher per gallon, than the premium grade gasoline ($2.99). A vehicle that uses standard grade gas ($2.79), and gets around 40mpg makes a lot of sense to me. The finances just don't work out right now. My truck is seven years old and paid off. As nice as a hybrid sounds, it would cost me more in a monthly payment, and insurance to buy one. Despite what the crash reports say, I cannot imagine how a compact car would be safer than my truck...
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:19 pm

I do think that we will start seeing a merger between Ford European models and the Ford US models over the next five to seven years. The Ford Verve concept is the first major step in that direction, since that will spawn a common Ford Fiesta model that will be sold worldwide, including the USA. The second model on this trend is the next-generation Ford Focus, which may see the light of day as early as fall 2009. And finally, the Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan and European Ford Mondeo will be replaced by a common model.

I also expect the Ford Edge/Lincoln MKX and European Ford Galaxy/S-MAX to be merged into a single worldwide model within this time frame, too.
 
RW170
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:20 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 24):
GM had it until 1996 on Roadmaster and Caprice Classic.

It's not 1996 anymore either.  Wink
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:27 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
I was really taken back by the old guy that claimed to have worked with Ford for 40 years and stat that they have always competed against Acura. I may be young but I still remember with Acura was a brand new line of vehicle for Honda back in the 1980s.

I, for one, have never heard of any one at Ford or a Ford product offered to directly compete w/Acura; regardless of how long the make (Acura) existed. Did the old guy you asked reek of alcohol?  Silly

At Philly's Auto Show last January/February (2007 model year); there were no Crown Vics on display (not even the PI) but there were the usual 2 Grand Marquis (one base GS & one loaded LS model) but only one Town Car (previous years had at least 2 TCs on display). I'd be very curious to see what this year's show will display; which will be January/February. Two years ago, Philly lost out on displaying the Dodge Challenger prototype because it featured at the Chicago Auto Show around the same time.

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
He then tells me that the new Lincoln MK-S is the new flagship Lincoln.

Has that model actually come out yet?

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
For what ever reason, they are ashamed of their products and keep changing their strategy every other year.

Last I heard, the MK-S was considered but dropped because it was too narrow to be an adequate replacement for the Town Car. IMHO, a similar issue exists w/the new Taurus/Sable plus the fact that it's FWD. It was reported earlier this year that for Town Car production was relocated to the same plant that produces the Crown Vic/PI and Grand Marquis; but Lincoln's website only lists the 2007 model.  confused  To add, the last time I checked (about a month ago); the MKS model was not on their website. That means, according to Lincoln's website, the only sedan model available is the Fusion-based MKZ... something's wrong somewhere.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):
The people working the booths are supposed to be knowledgeable of the product they are presenting.

Key phrase here is supposed to be knowledgeable. In my experiences at auto shows; the product knowledge the reps have are either very limited and/or scripted. In short, if one asks a question that's not an FAQ; blank stares usually result.

Two classic examples of this at past Philly Auto Shows were:
1. At either the 2002 or 2003 Auto Show, I overheard one rep stating telling a person that the largest Ford sedan offered was the Taurus. I tapped that person's shoulder and pointed at the Crown Vic that was on display at the other end of Ford's exhibit floor and showed the rep a picture of the CV from their own brochere. Needless to say, the rep was somewhat embarassed.

2. When the current Mustang rolled out for 2005; I asked a rep about the optional My Color instrument panel display. He knew nothing about it. Once again, I pulled out the trusty brochere and showed the pictures of the feature (which allows one to change the color of the instrument panel lighting) to the rep. Again, another rep embarassed of not knowing what features their then-newest model offered.

All this from so-called experts.

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
My suggestions were to;
-put the 2004 Lincoln Continental concept car in to production
-Make a station wagon version of the current Mercury Grand Marquis. Raise it only 2”, put Colony Park wood grain side panels, ski rack, drop in the current 5.4 liter V8 and optional Power stroke diesel and dress up the interior with the current Kings Ranch interior that is available in the F-250/350/450 heavy duty pick-up trucks.
Since all of my suggestions were all from the current parts bin at Ford, they knew I was on to something and just wanted me to leave.

Oh to be a fly on the wall for that discussion/confrontation. Big grin
I agree w/you 100% on your product suggestions; however, the proposed CAFE increase to 35 mpg could be a hindrance to the 5.4 being offered unless Ford offers en masse either a Focus diesel or hybrid to offset any fuel economy penalties incurred. In order to get diesel cars to be offered nationwide, one would have to overhaul emission regs; many of which were conceived back at a time when diesels were known for being just noisy & dirty.

As far as the woodgrain panels are concerend; I'd say offer it as an option, that way one can win over additional buyers/owners that might be turned off by the package.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 16):
Sorry...

My Ford truck gets around 14mpg city. I need a truck that gets better mileage. The folks I know who own hybrids are not filling up as often as I do...

I think it is nuts to pay $115K for ANY car...

The new Tahoe hybrid model gets 20-21 mpg and costs a fraction of what the Lexus hybrid costs.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 1):
The Grand Marquis/Town Car are my favorite Fords. I owned a 2000 Grand Marquis. It was a nice car, but had a lot of fit and finish problems. I sold the car when it was four year old.

Did you buy it new? If yes, then why didn't you address the fit & finish issues to the dearler before you signed on the dotted line? I'm sure they would've been more than happy to either have the problem(s) corrected or direct you to another similar model without the issues if it means a vehicle sale (& a commission).

Anyway, IMHO, if Ford even thinks of outright dropping the Panther platform without offering an suitable/adequate replacement; the police departments, taxi companies, and limo companies that have bought from them for years will not be too pleased.

Personally, I'm suprised nobody at Ford considered using a Panther-based vehicle for their alternate fuels (be it hybrid, hydrogen, biodiesel, etc.) experiments; that could be the platform's saving grace.

'Fly did you ask anyone at the Auto Show about the RWD Interceptor concept vehicle? That was supposed to be a possible RWD successor to the Panther platform.
 
UTA_flyinghigh
Posts: 6304
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:30 pm

I want a Ford like this one :
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g220/UTA_flyinghigh/Poulets/USA/Federal/MIB.jpg

No woodgrain in that one though  Wink

UTA  checkeredflag 
 
N74JW
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:31 am

RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:37 pm



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 38):
The new Tahoe hybrid model gets 20-21 mpg and costs a fraction of what the Lexus hybrid costs.

I am not sure what the point is in that case...
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6520
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:43 pm



Quoting N74JW (Reply 40):
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 38):
The new Tahoe hybrid model gets 20-21 mpg and costs a fraction of what the Lexus hybrid costs.

I am not sure what the point is in that case...

Your earlier post expressed a dislike for the 14 mpg that your Ford truck was getting as well as paying over $100k for a Lexus hybrid; I was just pointing out a more reasonable alternative as far as hybrids are concerned; especially if you need the room of a large vehicle.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 3:47 pm



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 38):
Did you buy it new? If yes, then why didn't you address the fit & finish issues to the dearler before you signed on the dotted line? I'm sure they would've been more than happy to either have the problem(s) corrected or direct you to another similar model without the issues if it means a vehicle sale

I did buy the car new and I worked for Ford at that time. It was a great car for the first 9 months. Then it started falling apart. I had three drivers door module failures in two years. One summer day I got in the car and the radio was crooked. The plastic had warped on the dash, the radio was fine. Heat had warped a lot of plastic pieces on the interior. Which I don't expect in Michigan. As far as the driveline was concerned it was a great car. I have leased two Chryslers since then and the only problem was a burned out map lamp bulb.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 36):
Ford Galaxy/S-MAX to be merged into a single worldwide model within this time frame, too.

I hope Ford does a better job with this world car than they did with the Contour. Around Detroit you still see more Tempos than its replacement, the Contour.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 38):
Key phrase here is supposed to be knowledgeable. In my experiences at auto shows; the product knowledge the reps have are either very limited and/or scripted. In short, if one asks a question that's not an FAQ; blank stares usually result.

Sometimes the sales people at the dealer are better, if you can believe that one. If you want to talk engineering you need to come to the Society of Automotive Engineers World Congress in Detroit. That is where the people who really know cars come to talk about them. It is tough to get in if you are not a member.
 
cfalk
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 4:19 pm



Quoting N74jw (Reply 35):
Diesel is the most expensive grade of gasoline in my area ($3.14 p/gal). The average price is 10-15 cents higher per gallon, than the premium grade gasoline ($2.99). A vehicle that uses standard grade gas ($2.79), and gets around 40mpg makes a lot of sense to me.

If you got a truck, you would not be getting 40 mpg, even in a hybrid. The Chevy Tahoe Hybrid gets 21 mpg.

A Prius will get 40 mpg, but a similarly sized diesel (available in Europe) can easily get 65-75 mpg. That more than makes up for the price difference.

Also remember that the price difference for diesel is artificial. Diesel costs less to produce than gasoline. If the government would back off on Diesel taxes, diesel would become much more popular.
 
N74JW
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:13 pm



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 41):
Your earlier post expressed a dislike for the 14 mpg that your Ford truck was getting as well as paying over $100k for a Lexus hybrid; I was just pointing out a more reasonable alternative as far as hybrids are concerned; especially if you need the room of a large vehicle.

It's cool, I meant no offense. Sorry...
 
N74JW
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:31 am

RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:16 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 43):
Also remember that the price difference for diesel is artificial. Diesel costs less to produce than gasoline. If the government would back off on Diesel taxes, diesel would become much more popular.

That is an interesting point. The govt could be driving up retail and wholesale prices everywhere. Truckers bring goods to the American market. Trucks run diesel. If the US govt nails diesel fuel with the highest taxes, couldn't they be running up prices for everyone?

I am not an economic strategist, but seems wacky to me...
 
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falstaff
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:00 pm



Quoting N74JW (Reply 45):
Truckers bring goods to the American market. Trucks run diesel. If the US govt nails diesel fuel with the highest taxes, couldn't they be running up prices for everyone?

Railroads use diesel too. Basically every consumer good sold in the USA has been on a truck, train, or both at some point in its life cycle. Even stuff the consumers doesn't buy directly like coal for power stations is carried on trains and ships.

The costs do get passed on to us and we end up paying more for everything, while our salaries still stay the same or go up at a slower level.

Part of the cost of diesel taxes is based on the idea that most users are big trucks. Big trucks take a serious toll on roads in the maintenance department. Railroads don't pay those kind of taxes because they maintain there own right of ways. Trucks also pay higher license fees than do cars and light trucks.

At one time and not very long ago, diesel was far cheaper than gasoline, in the USA. We need some sort of two tiered system of diesel tax. It would not be popular with truckers and other shippers, but it would help increase diesel car sales in the USA.

A lot of people still have bad memories of GM's Oldsmobile 350 diesel debacle. It has been 23 model years since that was last sold and many people still think of those when they think of diesel cars. They also think of slow and very under powered (I should know I have owned all three) Mercedes-Benz 220, 240, and 300D models.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:05 pm



Quoting N74JW (Reply 45):
That is an interesting point. The govt could be driving up retail and wholesale prices everywhere. Truckers bring goods to the American market. Trucks run diesel. If the US govt nails diesel fuel with the highest taxes, couldn't they be running up prices for everyone?

Not exactly. Gasoline taxes in the US are among the lowest in the industrialized world (if not THE lowest), due to all the political pressures on keeping gas prices low, presumably from Detroit, which has this inferiority complex, it seems, about not being able to compete if U.S. consumers had to pay the same prices for gas as do Europeans and Japanese. So Diesel taxes are probably about where they need to be - it's the gasoline taxes that need to be raised.

If Americans had to pay French fuel prices, for example (around $8.00 per gallon and $7.00 for diesel, roughly) you would see a huge shift towards diesels as well as a severe downsizing of the SUV and truck market.
 
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falstaff
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:22 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 47):
If Americans had to pay French fuel prices, for example (around $8.00 per gallon and $7.00 for diesel, roughly) you would see a huge shift towards diesels as well as a severe downsizing of the SUV and truck market.

We Americans love our big gas hog cars and trucks and we always have. You can make all the rules and regulations you want, but culture is very difficult to change.

How much of that French price is taxes?

It is kind of like cigarettes. The price for a pack of smokes is actually fairly cheap, governments just feel it is ok to tax the hell out it because it has become unpopular in much of the US population.

Charging $8 a gallon for gas to get people to drive smaller cars may work, but it doesn't make it right.

US and foreign car builders sold much smaller cars in the USA 20-25 years ago than they do today. My 1985 Honda Accord was smaller than a new Civic. My 1984 Chevrolet 1/2 ton truck is smaller than any 1/2 ton today. You can really see it parked next to a new one. US car manufacturers started to downsize their full size models in the late 1970s and sales and quality suffered. This was especially true of GM which scored big time with its downsized 1977 models, but when they were downsized again for 85 it was a bust. By the 1990s cars started to grow again. If cars were still the same size they were in 1985, but had today's engine management systems we would not be having conversation because we would be seeing much better MPG ratings.

Americans like big cars. Car companies know it and that is why they don't bother selling tiny cars here.
 
N1120A
Posts: 26932
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:04 pm



Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):

Can you believe that Lexus has a hybrid model that only gets 20MPG and sells for $115,000.00!

You miss the point of the LS600Lh. It has extremely low emissions levels while being a performance model for the LS range.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 13):
Ford is actually profitable in their finance division... Making me label them as more as a "financial company" that an"car company"

That has indeed been the MO of US car makers for years. Finance and parts.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 16):

I think it is nuts to pay $115K for ANY car...

While that may be true, I would happily plunk down $240K for a Spyker Widebody if I could afford it.

Quoting N74jw (Reply 35):

Diesel is the most expensive grade of gasoline in my area ($3.14 p/gal).

Diesel is not a grade of gasoline.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 41):
I was just pointing out a more reasonable alternative as far as hybrids are concerned; especially if you need the room of a large vehicle.

Or you can get a Camry Hybrid, have a very good sized car, and get much better mileage.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 43):
If the government would back off on Diesel taxes, diesel would become much more popular.

The minuscule difference in the price of diesel and gasoline really shouldn't make a difference in consumer attitudes. The issue is that diesels have not been marketed properly and en masse here in the US

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 47):

If Americans had to pay French fuel prices, for example (around $8.00 per gallon and $7.00 for diesel, roughly) you would see a huge shift towards diesels as well as a severe downsizing of the SUV and truck market.

Yep. The average car in France gets 45 mpg, which leads Europe. The average car in the US does about 23mpg. The price difference in gasoline isn't as shocking now, is it?
 
PHLBOS
Posts: 6520
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:38 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 48):
US and foreign car builders sold much smaller cars in the USA 20-25 years ago than they do today.

Among US builders, that's not necessarily true; at least among cars.

In 1983, the largest non-limo Cadillac was 221" overall length, had a 121.5" wheelbase and was available in coupes & sedans; the '88 Brougham sedan was similar.

Today's DTS sedan is 207.6" overall length and has a 115.6" wheelbase.

In 1983, the largest Buick (Electra/Park Avenue) was 219" overall length, had a 119" wheelbase and was available in coupes & sedans.
While the '88 FWD Electra/Park Avenue/LeSabre coupes & sedans were 196/7" overall with a 110.8" wheelbase were smaller than their '83 predecessors and current Lucerne; the RWD B-body wagon (Estate Wagon) was still around measuring 217" overall with a 116" wheelbase.

Today's Lucerne sedan is 203.2" overall length and has a 115.6" wheelbase.

In 1983, the largest Chevy (Impala/Caprice) had a 116" wheelbase and were available as coupes, sedans & station wagons (remember those?); coupes & sedans were 212" overall and the wagons were 215"; the '88 Caprice (minus the coupe) were similar.

Today's Impala sedan is 200.4" overall length and has a 110.5" wheelbase.

In 1983, the largest Pontiac (Parisienne & Safari) had a 116" wheelbase and were available as sedans and station wagons; sedan was 212" overall and the wagons were 215"; the '88 Safari wagon was similar.
The '88 FWD Bonneville measured 196" overall with a 110.8" wheelbase.

The upcoming new RWD G8 sedan is 196.1" overall with a 114.8" wheelbase.

In 1983, the largest Oldsmobile (the Ninety-Eight) was 219" long had a 119" wheelbase and were available as coupes & sedans.
While the FWD '88 Eighty-Eight/Ninety-Eight coupes & sedans measured 196" overall with a 110.8" wheelbase were smaller than their '83 predecessors; the RWD B-body wagon (Custom Cruiser) was still around for 1988 measuring 217" overall with a 116" wheelbase.

The 2003 Aurora (Old's last large mid-size sedan) was 199.3" overall with a 112.2" wheelbase.

In 1983, the largest Lincoln sedans (Town Car & Mark VI sedan) measured 219" overall and had a 117.4" wheelbase; the '88 Town Car was similar.
The current Town Car (using the same platform) measures 215" with a 117.7" wheelbase.

In 1983, the largest Lincoln coupe (Mark VI) measured about 216" overall and had a 114.4" wheelbase.
The '88 Mark VII coupe measured 202.8" and had a 108.5" wheelbase.
Lincoln's last coupe (the '98 Mark VIII) measured 207.2" and had a 113" wheelbase.

The 1983, 1988 and 2008 Mercury Grand Marquis are roughly similar in size (114.4"-114.7" wheelbase; 213" overall length); though the '83 models were available in coupes and station wagons (also available in 1988) as well.

The same holds true for the Ford Crown Victoria; though the '08 model is available in fleet-only sales/contracts.

In 1983, the largest Chrysler Corp. vehicle was the RWD M-bodies sedans (Gran Fury/Diplomat/Fifth Avenue) that measured 204.6" and had a 112.6" wheelbase; the '88 models were similar. The M-body coupes (Cordoba/Mirada/Imperial offered though 1983) measured 209.7" overall and shared the same 112.6" wheelbase.

While today's Dodge Charger/Magnum and Chrysler 300 have a longer wheelbase (120"); the overall length of those vehicles (at 200.1") is still shorter than its 1983 & 1988 predecessors.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 48):
Americans like big cars. Car companies know it and that is why they don't bother selling tiny cars here.

Mainly because big cars (in this day & age, actually vehicles) translates to larger profits to the dealer.
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:10 pm



Quoting Falstaff (Reply 42):
I hope Ford does a better job with this world car than they did with the Contour. Around Detroit you still see more Tempos than its replacement, the Contour.

The biggest problem with the Ford Contour/European Ford Mondeo was that the interior space proved to be not as good as the Ford Tempo, which did hurt sales of that model. The current European Ford Mondeo is a vastly more roomy car, and as we've seen from the recently-released China-only model the Mondeo could easily get a wheelbase stretch to better accommodate American-sized passengers.

I do think we will see a merger of the Ford Edge/Lincoln MKX and European Ford S-MAX/Galaxy into a common platform within the next 5-7 years, probably powered by a new 2.8-3.0 liter V-6 or I-6 turbodiesel engine that meets even the 2009 diesel emission standards.
 
N1120A
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:46 pm



Quoting RayChuang (Reply 51):

The biggest problem with the Ford Contour/European Ford Mondeo was that the interior space proved to be not as good as the Ford Tempo, which did hurt sales of that model.

Actually, one of the biggest problems was the absolute junk automatic transmission those cars had (similar to the problems faced by many FWD Fords). That problem wasn't as evident in Europe because of the manual transmission bias, but here in the US it hurt big.
 
halls120
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:20 am



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 4):
I'm a solid Ford owner . . . couldn't GIVE me a Dodge (or any other Chrysler product) and I drive a GMC (squad car), so I'm concerned at the condition of Ford these days.

You should be. Their cars are pathetic. GM and Chrysler's current offering are better.

Quoting Falstaff (Reply 11):
Plastic wood has proven popular over the years. It was the most sold option on Chrysler Minivans until 1995. When the new van came out for 96 Chrysler was concerned that sales would drop because there was no plastic wood option. The new body line didn't allow the easy application of the "wood". You can read about it in a book called The Critical Path.

Real wood on cars is a relic of the early days of automobiles, and is best left to that era.

Plastic wood is an abomination.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 17):
What is with you people ? Only in America   - why would you want to drive around in an armoire ? Wood veneer belongs on IKEA furniture, not automobiles

Because some people simply have no taste.  duck 
 
N74JW
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:31 am

RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:46 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 47):
Gasoline taxes in the US are among the lowest

We know, but that doesn't make the price gauging any less abhorent.

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 47):
If Americans had to pay French fuel prices, for example (around $8.00 per gallon and $7.00 for diesel, roughly) you would see a huge shift towards diesels as well as a severe downsizing of the SUV and truck market.

I think we would see alot more than that. A revolution would occur.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 49):
I would happily plunk down $240K for a Spyker Widebody if I could afford it.

The farthest I would go with that might be on an H1, with diesel of course.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 49):
Diesel is not a grade of gasoline.

Poor choice of words on my part.
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:09 am

The problem is that this liking for big cars is having a HUGE effect on national security and the economy.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 54):
We know, but that doesn't make the price gauging any less abhorent.

You do of course realize that gasoline is still cheaper than milk or bottled water.
 
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falstaff
Posts: 5744
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RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:12 am



Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 50):
In 1983, the largest Chevy (Impala/Caprice) had a 116" wheelbase and were available as coupes, sedans & station wagons (remember those?); coupes & sedans were 212" overall and the wagons were 215"; the '88 Caprice (minus the coupe) were similar.

That car had already been downsized in 1977. The current Impala is smaller than the 1976 model.

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 50):
In 1983, the largest Chrysler Corp. vehicle was the RWD M-bodies sedans (Gran Fury/Diplomat/Fifth Avenue) that measured 204.6" and had a 112.6" wheelbase; the '88 models were similar. The M-body coupes (Cordoba/Mirada/Imperial offered though 1983) measured 209.7" overall and shared the same 112.6" wheelbase.

While today's Dodge Charger/Magnum and Chrysler 300 have a longer wheelbase (120"); the overall length of those vehicles (at 200.1") is still shorter than its 1983 & 1988 predecessors.

Yes but the M bodies were full sized in the 80s, but were the mid range in the 1970s.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 54):
Quoting Cfalk (Reply 47):
Gasoline taxes in the US are among the lowest

We know, but that doesn't make the price gauging any less abhorent.

I don't understand the logic that another country's higher taxes should be a model for us. I think the French should be saying we pay too much tax and the Americans have it right when it comes to paying the tax man.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 53):
Because some people simply have no taste

Outdated taste? Yes. No taste? No

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 50):
Mainly because big cars (in this day & age, actually vehicles) translates to larger profits to the dealer.

People don't just buy what car makers want them to. Sometimes a car really hits the nail on the head for whatever market you are trying to sell to. Sometimes it has been by accident and other times it was planned. Sometimes car makers miss the mark.
 
N74JW
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:31 am

RE: Ford/Mercury/Lincoln Is In Serious Trouble

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:05 am



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 55):
You do of course realize that gasoline is still cheaper than milk or bottled water.

Sure, but so... I don't understand the comparison. Printer ink in the most expensive fluid per volume...

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