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LTU932
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:36 pm



Quoting Kaitak (Reply 3):
I'm sure he has a "Plan B" to turn to.

Indeed. Yes, I'm very happy about the NO winning this referendum, but Chávez also hinted that he'd try again, when he repeated something he said after the failed coup in 92 which was "Por ahora, no pudimos (For now, we couldn't)". In fact, he even said in his story-filled speech this morning that he's still on track for creating a neocommunist socialistic Venezuela and even claimed that the people who voted NO finally went out to defend the constitution. This wasn't about defending the constitution, it was about common sense with regards to an already flawed constitution which, with these changes, would have become even more flawed. He will try again, and it's up to the Venezuelan people to stop him once more.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 14):
It shows that Venezuela is one of the most strongest democracies in the world.

Now you're paraphrasing what the official propaganda has been saying all night long through CNE and Comando Zamora (whatever the hell Comando Zamora is). While the NO won, these elections have NOT been transparent. Everybody knew the results before they were even announced, but CNE refused to give those results until they did (which was at around 01:30 LT). The world was left in the dark, and the world deserved to know because this election was indirectly also critical to the United States, Latin America and many other countries because it was promoted by the official propaganda as a vote against Bush.

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 16):
While I am dissapointed that the referendum did not pass

Why are you disappointed? Because a referendum was rightfully rejected because otherwise it would have given Chávez, with the abolition of term limits, the ultimate chance of consolidating his power as a dictator? Remember Saddam Hussein, he got re-elected all the time with results of between 90 and 100% of the vote, and look at what happened with Iraq. If Chávez does eliminate term limits, there will be no stopping him, guaranteed.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 40):
But this Castro-Wannabe will find new ways to strengthen his power, and I'm hoping he won't blame "CIA and other U.S. imperialists" for the outcome of the referendum.

I've seen news footage that showed people, in New York of all places, who wanted to vote for the YES, having signs that say "Yes, Chávez, no CIA". So while I'm sure he may eventually blame the US for the results, even if only behind the scenes, Venezuelans sympathetic to Chávez are already campaigning against the US, even in the US.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
b752fanatic
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:45 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 50):
While the NO won, these elections have NOT been transparent

Oh, I didn't know that, have you any sources? Then the elections were fixed towards the NO part, if that's what you mean? because it was that side that won I believe.

That's news to me, I didn't know that.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
FMAL
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:47 pm

I haven't read through all of the posts, but from what I could see, none of the Venezuelans on this thread have said anything to support Chavez's reforms, quite the contrary, they're happy with the outcome of the referendum.

I think this says a lot. The people there, actually living in the country and with whom we are discussing here tell us that Chavez is no good, the country is worse since his arrival. If what we see on the media and also on his own proposal wasn't enough to let us know that his aim is to hold power for as long as he lives, and gradually take a hold on the whole country as its "leader", they maybe these posts from actual Venezuelans can also show us that indeed Chavez is not about progress and reform, he's egocentric, paranoid and wants nothing else but his personal gain. Everything else are means for him to achieve this personal gain, and nothing more.

Congratulations to the people of Venezuela, even for those who voted "yes". They might not know now, but they have been granted a great gift.
 
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:49 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 50):
even claimed that the people who voted NO finally went out to defend the constitution

such tricks also happen in countries like Switzerland. When the Swiss electorate voted down a proposal for "EU entry now" which would have ruined the Bilaterals and slowed down the integration by half a decade, the SVP of Mr Blocher stated that the voters had voted against the EU. So that Mr Chavez is not the first to turn things upside down.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 6:55 pm



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 51):
Oh, I didn't know that, have you any sources? Then the elections were fixed towards the NO part, if that's what you mean? because it was that side that won I believe.

I don't have the time, nor am I required to justify myself to you, but suffice to say that if you look at how sloppy CNE has worked, and even allowed polls to be opened 4+ hours after they were supposed to close, then you'll get the picture.

Unlike you, I did watch the news all night long, with their constant live coverage of the Venezuelan elections.  Yeah sure
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
b752fanatic
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:03 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 54):
I don't have the time, nor am I required to justify myself to you, but suffice to say that if you look at how sloppy CNE has worked, and even allowed polls to be opened 4+ hours after they were supposed to close, then you'll get the picture.

Unlike you, I did watch the news all night long, with their constant live coverage of the Venezuelan elections

I know, you don't have the time, nor any sources, you only have suppositions, such as these:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 16):
Let me put it this way: If Ch�z loses the referendum, either it will be he who will cry fouplay, or he accepts the result while he gets the people from the Electoral commision to declare it null and void and have a re-vote. That being said, if he wins the vote, then the people will have a hard time to cry foulplay without getting beaten up by police and military. Those who go on TV to express their rejection for the result will, if they are Venezuelans, become second class citizen and will have any chance of a reasonable living stripped away, just as it happened with those who demanded the recall around 2004 and lost the recall. Being a second class citizen in Venezuela is probably almost the same as being a persona non grata.

Of which, none of them happened!!!!!
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:06 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 54):
I don't have the time, nor am I required to justify myself to you, but suffice to say that if you look at how sloppy CNE has worked, and even allowed polls to be opened 4+ hours after they were supposed to close, then you'll get the picture. Unlike you, I did watch the news all night long, with their constant live coverage of the Venezuelan elections.

-
I do NOT believe that you have to justify yourself to anybody. The question about the WHY however is justified. In other and blunt words, I expected Mr Chavez to twist the vote in his way and am astonished that he did not do so.
 
MIAspotter
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:19 pm

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 46):
He's not going anywhere my friend. There are several more wonderful years left...

Well my friend... perhaps you could go down there and live those "wondeful years" with him communist style, far away from your imperialist, fascist and whatever-else Chavez calls the US.

Hmm yeah! nothing quite like waking up in the morning and read on the newspaper that 60+ people got killed by violence, or that there is a shortage of meat, or sugar, or flour, or milk, they closed down a TV station, or oppositors have been harrassed...

Oh yeah that's the life!

Like I said it before on another post, it is easy to support some ideal and viewpoint from far away from the comfort of your home without knowing what is really going on.

MIAspotter.

[Edited 2007-12-03 11:20:28]
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andessmf
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:22 pm

High level defections played a part, as well:

"Chavez, 53, also suffered some high-profile defections by political allies, including former defense minister Gen. Raul Baduel.

Early Monday, Baduel reminded fellow Venezuelans that Chavez still wields special decree powers thanks to a pliant National Assembly packed with his supporters.

Baduel, who as defense minister helped Chavez turn back the 2002 putsch, said Venezuela can only be properly united by convening a popularly elected assembly to rewrite its constitution."

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8TA45K00&show_article=1
 
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:28 pm



Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 57):
read on the newspaper that 60+ people got killed by violence

-
sorry, WHAT newspaper ? The new newspapers will only report POSITIVE news

Quoting MIAspotter (Reply 57):
there is a shortage of meat, or sugar, or flour, or milk

-
again, the newspapers of the future under Chavez will report on record harvests and record productions of industrial plants, and such news like that Mr Chavez had given a reception to the Prime Minister of Burundi and the Finance Minister of Fiji and the delegate from Tehran. And the newspapers will report extensively about some new apartment buildings somewhere and some infrastructure projects.
 
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:29 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
I'm sure Hugo will find a way to overturn the vote somehow. Dictators-in-waiting don't like hearing "no", but I'm so happy for Venezuela this morning!

Agreed. He'll probably sit on his loss for a while to try and discredit the opposition. When the time it right, count on another one of his stunts.

Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 11):
I can't wait for Alex!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! to spin this.

Same here.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
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LTU932
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 7:57 pm



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 55):
I know, you don't have the time, nor any sources, you only have suppositions, such as these:

It all may just happen after all. Just wait until the next time Chávez rants about the US and Bush in particular.

Why don't you call Chávez during the next live broadcast of "Aló Presidente" and ask him yourself? He does host that TV talk show personally, and I'm sure he'll give you an answer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al%C3%B3_Presidente
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
797
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:32 pm

Holy crap, I had to skop several posts because I'm too anxious to answer the following...

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 41):
WHY, Alberchico, does a free man, like yourself, support a dictator-in-waiting? Explain that to us, if you have the intelligence and the balls to do so?

I can't believe how deaf and childysh some people are in this forum... even after all that has happened. Falcon84, Alberchico has no idea of what the true story is... I bet he's a guy who plays Xbox all day long and hears about the 'cool' news Chavez has to offer on a daily basis, thus falling in love with the biggest bullshit in the planet. As I have mentioned infinite times on this space, you cannot comment about things that you don't live or at least know. A.netters such as LTU at least know the background of the story and have some fundamented comentaries. On the other hand, Mr. Alberchico seems like a baby who goes for what might look cooler... I think we should start ignoring his posts as all of them are irrational.

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 46):
By accepting defeat and not trying to claim fraud or demand a recall he proved himself to be a class act. You have to give him credit for that....

You see!? Did anyone tell you who was Chavez in a meeting with before admiting his defeat? ALTO MANDO MILITAR, which is the High Military Command. They told Hugo to tell the TRUTH and not invent any numbers. Then they took a lot of time (7 DAMN HOURS) to negotiate the results and finally come with a tight percentage which in the end is as bullshit as his speech. INFORM YOURSELF!

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 46):
He's not going anywhere my friend. There are several more wonderful years left...

Why don't you come and join this magnificent adventure? I bet you wouldn't last a month.

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 46):
If Chavez wanted to he could have easily comited fraud to win the vote. Which proves the integrity of the electoral system...

INTEGRITY?

Have you heard that Tibisay Lucena -the president of the institution- is 100% pro-Chavez? Did you see her face and heard her voice when she said the numbers? SHE WAS DYING, but cheating was absolutely not an option.

Please dude, just stay out and stop coming with this kind of BS. You just haven't got the rights to do this to us.

Cheers
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LTU932
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:46 pm



Quoting 797 (Reply 62):
Mr. Alberchico seems like a baby who goes for what might look cooler

The textbook term for such people is "bandwagon kid".

Quoting 797 (Reply 62):
Have you heard that Tibisay Lucena -the president of the institution- is 100% pro-Chavez? Did you see her face and heard her voice when she said the numbers? SHE WAS DYING

Doesn't surprise me that the CNE head was biased, although I'm sure that the people working for the electoral authorities have to be absolutely neutral (in terms party afiliation). This just proves my point that the election wasn't transparent, because there are biased people working at CNE.

Yes, people can vote for the party of their choice, even if they work in the electoral authorities, after all it's their constitutional right, but if their bias affects their work as electoral authority (the same for judges) and the electoral branch as a whole, then whatever transparency there was, will fade away.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
797
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:27 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 63):
Doesn't surprise me that the CNE head was biased, although I'm sure that the people working for the electoral authorities have to be absolutely neutral

Richie, I can see you're not updated with this matter. One of the wisest moves Chavez has accomplished in these 8 years of his administration has been to gain absolute control of the Public Entities (Poderes Públicos), such as the Parliament (Asamblea Nacional) and in this case, the Electoral Entity (CNE).

All of these entities are ruled by pro-Chavez people who are filled with money and walk with a million bodyguards around them driving big expensive cars. This is not supposed to be true, but if you look closer, the Defensor del Pueblo is a true Chavista; the current Vice-President Jorge Rodríguez was the CNE president when Chavez got re-elected and won the Referendum Revocatorio (which is the referendum when they REALLY cheated). Would you name Vice President a person who was supposed to be neutral? Don't think so...

What I'm trying to say is that Chavez -an incredibly smart person with a huge quantity of charisma- has accomplished what any other person wouldn't have. He did it because Venezuela is inmensely rich and a huge amount of the population is swimming in the seas of ignorance...

Anyhow, what we gained yesterday is the first step of a tough road that still needs to be walked. We must use our heads and not our ass to think (Alberchico). We are in the 21st century and the ideals Chavez wants to bring are not rational and the only thing they'll do is harm the essence of a magnificent country such as Venezuela.

Viva Venezuela!

Enrique
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LTU932
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:45 pm



Quoting 797 (Reply 64):
Richie, I can see you're not updated with this matter. One of the wisest moves Chavez has accomplished in these 8 years of his administration has been to gain absolute control of the Public Entities (Poderes Públicos), such as the Parliament (Asamblea Nacional) and in this case, the Electoral Entity (CNE).

All of these entities are ruled by pro-Chavez people who are filled with money and walk with a million bodyguards around them driving big expensive cars. This is not supposed to be true, but if you look closer, the Defensor del Pueblo is a true Chavista; the current Vice-President Jorge Rodríguez was the CNE president when Chavez got re-elected and won the Referendum Revocatorio (which is the referendum when they REALLY cheated). Would you name Vice President a person who was supposed to be neutral? Don't think so...

I was just basing myself on the true job description of the head of the Electoral Authorities. In Germany, the Bundeswahlleiter, and also local electoral authorities have to be absolutely neutral, the same for those involved in the Tribunal Supremo de Elecciones in Costa Rica.

But you're right. Chávez was smart in removing any possible link to the opposition or neutrality in public entities such as Parliament and CNE, because otherwise, he would not be able to consolidate his power the way he did. My point is that Electoral Authorities have to be neutral, while still be allowed to exercise their right to vote, and as shown yesterday, the CNE is not neutral, it's biased (or rather, it's full of Chavistas as you said) and that's why they took so long to even announce the results and to close whatever poll was left open beyond the official time of closing of the polls.

This wouldn't have happened in Costa Rica or in Germany because of this absolute requirement towards neutrality. Hell, in Germany the TV networks can even show their own exit polls and projections for an election once the polls close at 18:00 LT, with the first results coming in roughly 40 to 60 minutes after the polls closed, and that even with a manual vote count (AFAIK Germany still only uses paper ballots). But then again, the comparison is difficult to make, as Venezuela doesn't count with a neutral electoral authority, and the networks weren't even allowed to make any of their own prognoses of the results when all polls were closed.
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Falcon84
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:48 pm

A|lberchico, seems you're being called out by Venezuelans n here who don't think much of Mr. Chavez, or your blind support of him. Care to respons?



Ah, that's what I thought.

[Edited 2007-12-03 15:53:34]

[Edited 2007-12-03 15:54:28]
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:51 pm

I'm so happy for the people of Venezuela. I have a good friend that lives there, I know he is dancing in the streets tonight. Congrats to all those who voted NO!!!! May the end of the Chavez regime be coming to an end. Big grin

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RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:12 am

First and foremost,

Congratulations to the Venezuelan people for demonstrating to the world that the Venezuela's democratic process is alive and healthy. well done. Congratulations to the winners, and the losers..will have to work harder next time

Quoting Homer71 (Reply 1):
I'm guessing he's going to accuse the US of meddling in the vote and threaten to cut off his oil to them



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 2):
I'm sure Hugo will find a way to overturn the vote somehow. Dictators-in-waiting don't like hearing "no", but I'm so happy for Venezuela this morning!

hahahaha why am I not surprised about these type of commentaries I bet you guys are dissapointed..which IMO is pretty sad..that people think this way....

Quoting Bongo (Reply 19):
To be honest, I don´t really know why the NO won...I mean, fortunatelly won, but strange because we all know Chavez could made any trick to win, specially with such a close margin, almost tie.

I am glad you bring this up!!!!

Because I believe yesterdays result directly addresses this whole conspiracy theory that many right winger neo-liberals here some times claim. I hope this serves to cause some of those who love the conspiracy theories about voting machines and how the CHAVEZ MACHINE ...the evil dictator..who controls peoples breath and has controlled and rigged everything , and can cause any result he wants and who actually did not win the elections fairly ...blah blah blah...to rethink about what is going on in Venezuela.

For all those who compare Chavez to Hitler and Stalin and radical fundamentalist leader....what's your response now??? I ask.....

Oh wait...something will happen...maybe this is yet another plot masterminded by Chavez himself....he controlled the outcome so that he would loose to gain credibility about his electoral process..but you wait....he will use this to gain further control...pssst........what ever ....
 sarcastic   sarcastic   sarcastic 

I saw Chavez speech last night where he admitted to his defeat fair and square and says that he actually pushed the CNE to come up with an statistically irreversible result in order to put the issue to rest ..because that is what was fair for Venezuelans....

When did Hitler ...do this..or something even close to this.??....when did he poll people about his plans of the third reich..(not sure how to spell this word) or all the crazy ideas he had in his head..he just did it no questions asked..

I hope this proves to some, that: whether you like it or not....Venezuela does not have a Dictator...just a guy with very radical ideas thats all....and if you disagree with them...then call for organization and put forth a strong opposition...

so Please I hope this event brings to the front table the reality about the democratic process in Venezuela...

Quoting Alberchico (Reply 16):
While I am dissapointed that the referendum did not pass, this is proof that Venezuela is a functioning democracy and that the voices of the people still count. If this really was a dictatorship then the whole thing would have been rigged so that the vote would have passed by a huge margin. In fact many here predicted that was would happen.
However I would like to point out that this referendum failed to pass by a very narrow margin, meaning that Chaves still has very strong support and I can guarantee that before his term limits expire he will try to do this again........


 checkmark   checkmark 


that is very true, from what I understand is that the supporters of the government have come out and said that there was quite some abstinence and that in this opportunity it hurt them more than the opposition...well that is how you learn your lesson.


I hope this victory leads towards more productive dialoge in Venezuela and no more stupidity and childish arguments..

cheers

Rhino
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rwsea
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:52 am

Chavez has nearly turned Venezuela into a joke on the world stage, much as Bush has done with the US.

It's refreshing to see that Venezuelans weren't willing to give up their freedoms. The comparison between Chavez and Hitler would have been very apt, as Hitler used the constitution to cement his power to his advantage. Some of Chavez's reforms (such as being able to hold people without trial in a state of emergency) were especially Hitleresque.

What a great day for democracy in Venezuela!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:57 am



Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 68):
hahahaha why am I not surprised about these type of commentaries I bet you guys are dissapointed..which IMO is pretty sad..that people think this way....

Dissapointed? I'm delighted. If more people over the years would stand up to thugs like Chavez, how much less heartbreak would there had been i nthe world? This is a great day for free people, not just in Venezuela, but everywhere. To anyone who values freedom, this was a day to rejoice, because a thug was turned back in his attempt to gain absolute power over a proud people. Why do you seem upset at those of us who call a spade a spade? Chavez wants to be a dictator. He was dealt a huge blow in that ateempt. Hopefully, there will be no "next time" on this issue.

Viva to the PEOPLE of Venezuela. This is their day. Chavez deserves no credit for anything that is happening this day.
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RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:13 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 70):
Chavez wants to be a dictator

Oh my...... Wow!  Wow!  Wow!.wait did you say: wants..???? does that by any chance imply that he is currently NOT a dictator....???

How dare you say that...he is already a dictator.......come on...don't you see he rigged the whole thing up..

 sarcastic   sarcastic 



Once again congratulations to Venezuelans for being great examples of democracy in the region.
 bigthumbsup   bigthumbsup 

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 70):
Why do you seem upset at those of us who call a spade a spade?

However... maybe the spade is not a spade..after all....an those who call a spade a spade are wrong.

by the way I am not upset...I am quite happy about the results because it proves that Venezuela is a true democracy...where even the loosing party faces up to it, and courageously admits defeat.

Hopefully the leaders of the opposition will learn a little about admitting defeat (Rosales was the only one who actually did this after the election and got shit-canned for it), instead of spreading childish conspiracy theories about why they have lost in the past.

Congrats Venezuela!
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
andessmf
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:30 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 70):
Chavez wants to be a dictator

How about this: I give you three tries to give us a good, logical explanation for why Chavez wanted to remove presidential term limits.
 
Falcon84
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:35 am

quote=RIHNOSAUR,reply=71][/quote]

Leave your comfortable freedom in Charlottsville, and go down to Venezuela, and see what the truth is. I haven't been there, but I don't wear blinders like these Chavez ass-wipes on here, who thinks he's some kind of hero for the shit he's pulling.

Go down there, and try to live the freedoms you have hear-LISTEN and READ to what those who LIVE there are telling the world-that this man is hell-bent on getting absolute power, and he'll keep trying.

Like AndesSMF said above-and why don't you Chavez ass-kissers answer this one-WHY do you think he's trying to get rid of of all term limits,and letting himself run for life? Why would someone do that?

You Chavez hanger-on's answer that one. I know the answer to that one.
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RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:56 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 73):
I haven't been there,



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 73):
Go down there, and try to live the freedoms you have hear-LISTEN and READ to what those who LIVE there are telling the world-that this man is hell-bent on getting absolute power, and he'll keep trying.

HAHAHAHA..
dude I have been there many many times...my wife and all of my in laws are from Venezuela.....and they all hate chavez by the way....so its not like I do not see the other side of the story

I do not claim to know it all because of this..and i certainly do not feel more entitled or that I know more than those who live there........plus I know plenty of people over there who have a very different outlook than the one the US media paints here and what YOU want to hear.

Why don't you begin to accept that maybe this is a democracy after all???

I have said it many times

the chances of people posting here for the other side of the argument are very slim......just read the threads concerning Venezuela, very rarely you will get a different story than the usual anti Chavez pro-neoliberal anti-castro BS that the Miami lovers like to hear....

PS ...to answer your question...if the "Yes" had won, then presidential re-election would have had no limits any more.(if this is what you mean). ...and Chavez would have had the possibility of continuous re-election....
Sorry to break it to you ...but if people had VOTED for this change and won..then so be it ..that is what people want and still is very far from being a dictatorship....

YES i do know about the no limits on re-election..but if people vote then people vote. Plus he would have to be continuously re-elected to stay in power so what is your argument???

[Edited 2007-12-03 20:02:59]
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Falcon84
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:02 am



Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 74):
but I certainly feel that I have a better basis than YOU to form my opinion....plus I know plenty of people over there who have a very different outlook than the one the US media paints here and what YOU want to hear.

I'm not relying on the U.S. media here. I'm relying on those from Venezuela who are on this forum, who have constantly kept us updated on what is going on here, and who are a better indicator of what Chavez is than these Americans and Euro's who have never been there, and think this guy is the greatest thing since Fidel Castro. As far as what the U.S. media says about him, from what I've seen, I think it pants him for what he is: an ego-driven wannabe. He's such a clown that he reminds me more of Il Duce than Castro, though.


Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 74):
Plus he would have to be continuously re-elected to stay in power so what is your argument???

My argument is this: he has a packed legislature, who could vote him President-For-Life, and what is your argument to that? Been done before. Why don't you think this jerk won't do it?
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:10 am

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 75):
'm not relying on the U.S. media here.

I apologize, i mis read your post, if you notice I have edited my response....

but still, my point is that if people vote to have no limits on re-election (which could lead to a long chavez period)
then people voted.....it is the will of the people to have their leader however long they want it...

Had the yes won, he may have well stayed many years...but he did it legitimately...an no one can argue that.

going to bed now....
cheers

[Edited 2007-12-03 20:12:48]
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
andessmf
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:12 am



Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 74):

Strike one...

(Hint: I don't care how people voted for it, I want to know WHY Chavez proposed it)
 
Falcon84
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:13 am



Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 76):
Had the yes won, he may have well stayed many years...but he did it illegitimately...an no one can argue that.

I assume you meant "legitimately".

So did Hitler, remember. Enough said.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:16 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 77):
I want to know WHY Chavez proposed it)

because he wants to stay in power longer.... and???? I believe you are the one who is bating not me.


Es mas, ya se abrio UIO???? porque voy para Quito el 18??? (Additionally, did UIO re-open cause I am going there on the 18th??)

now I am going to bed.

Cheers
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:21 am



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 78):
I assume you meant "legitimately".

yep...sometimes the fierfox spell checker messes with me......but I went ahead and edited it.

cheers
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:22 am

Now I am really going to bed!!!!!
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
797
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:29 am



Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 71):
How dare you say that...he is already a dictator.......come on...don't you see he rigged the whole thing up..

Dude get a life... these ironic posts just prove how off the line you are.

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 71):
Hopefully the leaders of the opposition will learn a little about admitting defeat (Rosales was the only one who actually did this after the election and got shit-canned for it), instead of spreading childish conspiracy theories about why they have lost in the past.

Admiting defeat!!!!!???? Uhhhh how clear are things here. Too bad you haven't been here during the crucial times in the past elections, you would certainly have a different point of view... unless your bank account were packed with the dirty money the government uses to buy ignorants.

Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 73):
Leave your comfortable freedom in Charlottsville, and go down to Venezuela, and see what the truth is.

THANK YOUUUU!

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 79):
now I am going to bed.

It was about time... hermano, no traigas cosas que no sirven.

Cheers
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
andessmf
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:36 am



Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 79):
because he wants to stay in power longer.... and????

What does that make him, then?
 
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LTU932
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:45 am



Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 71):

It's like you speaking against the CAFTA referendum in Costa Rica because you feel the US will harm the country, and you basically repeat what populist/neocommunist schmucks like Ottón Solís say. Doesn't this actually make you a hypocrite, because after all, you bash the US and yet have a comfortable life in Charlottesville, Virgina, right in the neighbourhood of Washington DC. If you really hate what the US stands for, leave the country. You'd be doing the United States a favour. Haganos el favor y vaya jalando!

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 72):
How about this: I give you three tries to give us a good, logical explanation for why Chavez wanted to remove presidential term limits.

Don't bother, Conrad. He can't, or rather won't answer the question.

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 76):
Had the yes won, he may have well stayed many years...but he did it legitimately...an no one can argue that.

He may have stayed, but at what cost? He would have taken the chance to rig any subsequent election after this referendum to keep his stranglehold on Venezuela. Even after Chávez "conceded", it won't stop him from dragging Venezuela even further down into misery.

Quoting 797 (Reply 82):
hermano, no traigas cosas que no sirven.

 checkmark 
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:57 am

There are many ways for Mr Chavez to proceed. He may for instance try another reform, like A) shortening the term of a president to 5 years but allowing 5 terms, etc
 
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cedars747
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:08 pm

Chavez is amazing  Wink with this referendum he wanted to show that he is not a dictator .I cant wait for the next referendum!


God bless you Hugo Chavez !

Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
miamiair
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:13 pm



Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 86):
not a dictator

Technically, no. De Facto, yes.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
ogre727
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:05 pm

Just because Pinochet admitted defeat and congratulated the opposition in the 1998 referendum does not make him NOT a dictator.

I am NOT comparing Chavez to Pinochet, I am just posting this in response to the people who think that they can erase the past 9 years of decreasing civil rights just because Chavez admitted defeat and congratulated the opposition.  sigh 
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797
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:42 pm



Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 86):
God bless you Hugo Chavez !

Pfff si eres engañado!

Last night I went out with some friends and all restaurants were packed with people celebrating... It's been a long time since I saw something similar. Thank God everything happened this way!

Cheers
Flying isn't dangerous. Crashing is what's dangerous!
 
Falcon84
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:52 pm



Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 86):
God bless you Hugo Chavez !

Why should God bless someone who doesn't believe in Him, and who wants to r un roughshod over those that do?

Another lost, confused soul, is Cedars747.
Work Right, Fly Hard
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:05 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 90):
Why should God bless someone who doesn't believe in Him,

-
you mean that Mr Chavez is an atheist ?
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:43 pm



Quoting 797 (Reply 89):
Last night I went out with some friends and all restaurants were packed with people celebrating..

where was this ....??on the east side of Caracas...???? I am willing to bet that is where you went out...
try going some where else.....and try getting out of Caracas ...and seeing for yourself another point of view rather than the one Globovision feeds you.

And just f

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 84):
It's like you speaking against the CAFTA referendum in Costa Rica because you feel the US will harm the country, and you basically repeat what populist/neocommunist schmucks like Ott�n Sol�s say. Doesn't this actually make you a hypocrite, because after all, you bash the US and yet have a comfortable life in Charlottesville, Virgina, right in the neighbourhood of Washington DC. If you really hate what the US stands for, leave the country. You'd be doing the United States a favour. Haganos el favor y vaya jalando!

as far as this concerns and commentaries suggesting for me to leave the forum....

Shows the level of tolerance and inability of many people here to even hear a different point of view. Yes I am sure many of you would like some of us to no post anything...but sorry....to ruin your party and sorry I am not a member of the pro neo-linberal, freetrade lets kiss the IMF's ass fund crowd...

I admit it, its not a popular position to have here ...specially with the latin American Aneters....

And LTU932: what the heck does having my own views about what is best for my country (Costa Rica) have to do with where I live currently...... You have absolutely no idea about what my plans are or where I want to live or what I am doing in charlottesville or why I came here....so its pretty lame that you have to use the "you don't live here ..you are not worthy and don't have a clue card" which you always play..

I seems like the one who is frustrated that lives in Costa Rica is you ...maybe you should move back to Germany or even better why don't you come to MIAMI..you will feel right at home with all the right wing Cuban republican vote servers that live there...

Mejor vaya jalandose usted de mi pais.....

cheers.
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
RIHNOSAUR
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:46 pm

By the way:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 84):
If you really hate what the US stands for,

Let me just clarify that I do not hate what the us stands for. That is just what your limited scope allows you to see from what I say here.

cheers y pura vida.
particles and waves are the same thing, but who knows what that thing is...
 
MIAspotter
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:03 pm



Quoting Cedars747 (Reply 86):
Chavez is amazing with this referendum he wanted to show that he is not a dictator .I cant wait for the next referendum!


God bless you Hugo Chavez !

Alex!!!

OMG! this is the most stupid, shallow, ridiculous and downright pathetic thing I have read in my whole life!! Dude.... what the hell did you smoked?

I have no words....honestly totally speechless and in the brink of laughing....

MIAspotter
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Falcon84
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:22 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 91):
you mean that Mr Chavez is an atheist ?

Most people with Marxist leanings are, MAF.  Yeah sure
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LTU932
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:26 pm



Quoting Ogre727 (Reply 88):
Just because Pinochet admitted defeat and congratulated the opposition in the 1998 referendum does not make him NOT a dictator.

Well said. You just summarised in a nutshell what most of us think.

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 92):
as far as this concerns and commentaries suggesting for me to leave the forum....

No, I'm suggesting that you leave Charlottesville, Virginia if you can't stand the United States.

Quoting RIHNOSAUR (Reply 93):
Let me just clarify that I do not hate what the us stands for.

Then why are you supporting someone who has indeed de-stabilised the entire region, has brought both diplomatic and commercial relations with the United States, one of their most important economical partners, to an all-time low, risking a heavy reduction in oil revenue, and who would even be willing to go to war against Colombia no matter what the consequences, just because Uribe is fed up with Chávez stalling the process or suspecting that he may get involved with the FARC?

It is you who has a very low level of comprehension of such things. I'm from Germany, and due to our past and the history of over 40 years of our brothers and sisters in the East living under communism, I have a unique perspective on such things, and I can guarantee you: Chávez's ultimate goal is to get the region under his control and consolidate his power as dictator in Venezuela. Chávez is a (neo-)communist, and like all communists, he wants to get rid of democracy and only uses it as a means to an end right now.
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:32 pm



Quoting Falcon84 (Reply 95):
you mean that Mr Chavez is an atheist ?

Most people with Marxist leanings are

Theoretically yes, but in reality NO
-
 
andessmf
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:32 pm



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 96):
has brought both diplomatic and commercial relations with the United States, one of their most important economical partners, to an all-time low,

You forgot Mexico, Colombia, Peru, Chile, etc.
 
MIAspotter
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RE: Venezuela - NO! To Chavez's Referendums

Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:04 pm



Quoting 797 (Reply 89):

Enrique, I bet Gaitas will sound so much better this december over there and the hallacas will taste better as well.

Viva Venezuela Libre!!!!!!

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