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b752fanatic
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U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:01 pm



Quote:
By MARK MAZZETTI
Published: December 3, 2007
WASHINGTON, Dec. 3 --- A new assessment by American intelligence agencies concludes that Iran halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003 and that the program remains on hold, contradicting an assessment two years ago that Tehran was working inexorably toward building a bomb.

The conclusions of the new assessment are likely to be a major factor in the tense international negotiations aimed at getting Iran to halt its nuclear energy program. Concerns about Iran were raised sharply after President Bush had suggested in October that a nuclear-armed Iran could lead to "World War III," and Vice President Dick Cheney promised "serious consequences" if the government in Tehran did not abandon its nuclear program.

The finding also come in the middle of a presidential campaign during which a possible military strike against Iran's nuclear program has been discussed. The assessment, a National Intelligence Estimate that represents the consensus view of all 16 American spy agencies, states that Tehran's ultimate intentions about gaining a nuclear weapon remain unclear, but that Iran's "decisions are guided by a cost-benefit approach rather than a rush to a weapon irrespective of the political, economic and military costs."



http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/wo...3cnd-iran.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Ok, great so then again we can confirm how our foreign policy was bound to take us to another unjustified war, and today we have news that Iran hasn't the capacity to conspire against the west with Weapons of mass destruction.

The American People ought to consider to question more of our politicians and not permit them to do as they wish by taking us to wars that only serve corporate agendas. If it weren't because this time we (the American people) didn't allow them to persuade us, we could have had more to feel sorry about.

Shall we consider the Iran war business over?
 
cfalk
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:25 pm



Quoting B752fanatic (Thread starter):
Ok, great so then again we can confirm how our foreign policy was bound to take us to another unjustified war,



Quoting B752fanatic (Thread starter):
The American People ought to consider to question more of our politicians and not permit them to do as they wish by taking us to wars that only serve corporate agendas.

What war? All I saw was some pretty intense diplomacy.
 
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mbmbos
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:26 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 1):
What war? All I saw was some pretty intense diplomacy.

What diplomacy? All I saw was some pretty intense saber rattling.
 
b752fanatic
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:30 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 1):
What war? All I saw was some pretty intense diplomacy.

 
RJdxer
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:34 pm

But then you read:

"The assessment, a National Intelligence Estimate that represents the consensus view of all 16 American spy agencies, states that Tehran is likely keeping its options open with respect to building a weapon, but that intelligence agencies "do not know whether it currently intends to develop nuclear weapons."

Iran is continuing to produce enriched uranium, a program that the Tehran government has said is designed for civilian purposes. The new estimate says that enrichment program could still provide Iran with enough raw material to produce a nuclear weapon sometime by the middle of next decade, a timetable essentially unchanged from previous estimates."


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/wo...ml?_r=2&hp&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

So they are playing a shell game. The military doesn't refine the uranium, they have a civilian agency do it. But how do you know that in some back office they aren't working out the engineering details to bring a bomb factory into production? As long as they are continuing to enrich uranium. the threat is there. When they stop doing that or allow for a full accounting of what is going where. Then the threat is passed.
 
MDorBust
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:38 pm



Quoting B752fanatic (Thread starter):
Ok, great so then again we can confirm how our foreign policy was bound to take us to another unjustified war, and today we have news that Iran hasn't the capacity to conspire against the west with Weapons of mass destruction.

Yeah, I actually read the article instead of attempting to make it say something it doesn't say.

Quote:
The new estimate says that enrichment program could still provide Iran with enough raw material to produce a nuclear weapon sometime by the middle of next decade, a timetable essentially unchanged from previous estimates.

Ooops, forget that part?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:39 pm



Quoting B752fanatic (Thread starter):
the Iran war

Holy Shit!

We're at war with Iran?!  faint 

How'd I miss that?

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 2):
intense saber rattling

Lame Saber Rattling . . . a few threats, an aircraft carrier or so, really low quality stuff . . . barely a blip on the news between Britney Spears Haircut and Marcus Vick's dog fights . . .

 sarcastic 

This isn't news . . . this is  stirthepot  . . . haven't seen a blasted thing on Iran in weeks - likely months - worth paying any attention . . .
 
Beaucaire
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:40 pm

The very moment American politicians start to understand how Persians and Arabs click,let me know...
There is a HUGE difference between what is being said on TV by Iranians and what is actually done.
It's part of their culture to overemphasise intentions to impress their folks .
CIA should know better than that -they have hundreds of "analysts" -one should ask what they are analyzing all day long...
 
b752fanatic
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 9:46 pm



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 4):
But how do you know that in some back office they aren't working out the engineering details to bring a bomb factory into production?

You are using suppositions, how do you know....? how do you know Costa Rica could be building a weapon, how do you know Canada is conspiring against the US... how do you know.. we know nothing, that's the truth, we think we know then we find out we didn't know. That's what happened with other situations in which we said: How do we know Saddam is...

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 5):
Ooops, forget that part?

No, but what do you make of it?, its Iran's threat that imminent as Washington was supposing? That was the intent, they wanted us to rush into another war based on an imminent threat therefore "preemptive action" was bound to be necessary.
 
dl021
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:02 pm



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 8):
You are using suppositions, how do you know....? how do you know Costa Rica could be building a weapon, how do you know Canada is conspiring against the US... how do you know.. we know nothing, that's the truth, we think we know then we find out we didn't know. That's what happened with other situations in which we said: How do we know Saddam is...

I think that you're falling into the category of needing absolute proof to justify going to war, and in the past I'd maybe have agreed with that. The problem is now that we can't afford to have "absolute proof" in that it would require a nuclear weapon to satisfy people like you. Once they have one the genie is out and it's very hard to get them to dismantle it.

Once a terrorist sponsoring regime has nuclear weapons then we're all in real trouble. People's confidence will be shaken and it'll have incredible impacts on economies worldwide, as well as forcing draconian security measures.....and you ain't happy about them now.

Tell me why we should have assumed that Iraq didn't have weapons when there were, and are, weapons missing? Tell me why we should not have assumed that their hinky act with playing musical chairs with the palace inspections was about covering something up they didn't want covered and we were sending in WMD inspectors?

Why do you want to be in the position to turn the other cheek here when the first punch with a nuke will kill thousands and thousands? It's not about letting some nutty regime have fighters or tanks anymore....it's about letting a regime that regularly calls for the end of their neighbors, and us, and sponsors terrorist (unless you think Hamas ain't terrorists).
 
lobster
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:11 pm



Quoting B752fanatic (Thread starter):
Ok, great so then again we can confirm how our foreign policy was bound to take us to another unjustified war, and today we have news that Iran hasn't the capacity to conspire against the west with Weapons of mass destruction.



Quoting B752fanatic (Thread starter):

Ugg, more rubbish on your part.


Exactly what war are you referring too? Oh wait, nope, were not at war with Iran.

Whether you like our current administration or not, I think everyone with ANY common sense can come to the conclusion that going to war with Iran would be one really, really, bad idea.
 
andessmf
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:12 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
The problem is now that we can't afford to have "absolute proof" in that it would require a nuclear weapon to satisfy people like you.

And then people like him would instantly blame the government for not having done anything about it...

and/or for having pissed off the offending government enough to make them feel threatened enough to use this nuclear weapon...

and for 'knowing' about this and allowing it to happen to justify going to war...

Did I get it right?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:18 pm



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 11):
And then people like him would instantly blame the government for not having done anything about it...

and/or for having pissed off the offending government enough to make them feel threatened enough to use this nuclear weapon...

and for 'knowing' about this and allowing it to happen to justify going to war...



I can't quite place my finger on it . . . but I'm thinking uber-left winger . . . way, way left . . . so left they departed the playing field.

I still haven't guessed why this is news?

Anyone hear anything out of Iran in months? Anyone hear anything about a war with Iran from our Government in months?

The current administration is too busy trying to keep the Repubs in office, and their opposition is too busy trying to get the Dems in office that no one is paying little ole Iran a speck of attention . . . .
 
b752fanatic
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:19 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Why do you want to be in the position to turn the other cheek here when the first punch with a nuke will kill thousands and thousands? It's not about letting some nutty regime have fighters or tanks anymore....it's about letting a regime that regularly calls for the end of their neighbors, and us, and sponsors terrorist (unless you think Hamas ain't terrorists).

Because you and I have a different mentality, that's all. The only nation that has ever used an atomic weapon with another country has been the US. And that is a fact, all the rest are suppositions and opinions based on post soviet era-Pentagon propaganda (based on perpetual war for perpetual peace).
 
b752fanatic
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:22 pm



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 11):
And then people like him would instantly blame the government for not having done anything about it...

and/or for having pissed off the offending government enough to make them feel threatened enough to use this nuclear weapon...

and for 'knowing' about this and allowing it to happen to justify going to war...

Did I get it right?

When was the last time we were attacked by a nuke? Which was the last country to use a nuclear weapon on people?
 
cfalk
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:29 pm



Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 2):
What diplomacy? All I saw was some pretty intense saber rattling.

Anything less than a mushroom cloud is diplomacy.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 14):
When was the last time we were attacked by a nuke?

Are you willing to wait until after it happens? I can see the rationale for that in the pre-atomic age, but now the price of doing a Chamberlain is a lot higher.
 
andessmf
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:38 pm



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 14):
When was the last time we were attacked by a nuke? Which was the last country to use a nuclear weapon on people?

The time to rail against FDR's 'illegal' war is loooooooong past. Though I am still writing to congress to investigate whether FDRs actions were justified. At least right now we don't have another Democrat with itchy fingers ready to press the button.  sarcastic 
 
Arrow
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:39 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Why do you want to be in the position to turn the other cheek here when the first punch with a nuke will kill thousands and thousands?

This is the nub of the problem: how much proof is necessary before you launch a first strike against someone who appears to be building nukes? These intelligence reports, to my mind, indicate there is nothing remotely close to the level of "proof" required to justify military strikes that would kill god knows how many people. I can't see anyone using that as a pretext for military intervention.

The bigger problem, unfortunately, is that US credibility on this stuff precludes anyone in the world giving it the benefit of the doubt. Far too many people, Americans too I'm sure, remember the "we don't want the proof to come in the form of a mushroom cloud" line that was shamelessly peddled ahead of the last pre-emptive strike in 2003.

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 12):
The current administration is too busy trying to keep the Repubs in office, and their opposition is too busy trying to get the Dems in office that no one is paying little ole Iran a speck of attention . . . .

I guess we should all be grateful for small mercies.
 
b752fanatic
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:45 pm

Quoting Cfalk (Reply 15):
Are you willing to wait until after it happens? I can see the rationale for that in the pre-atomic age, but now the price of doing a Chamberlain is a lot higher.
Well considering that we waited constantly from 1945 to early 1990's for the Soviets to attack us that is almost 50 years thinking that we were in constant threat, and not to mention the moneys and the people dead based on cold war propaganda. Now the threat has shifted, and our pentagon propaganda entices us to fear for the Iranians because they too as well could send nukes to the US. Bull crap!

No more manipulation of the people!, all of you are an example of how one could be misled to think that we are to keep this "preemptive" policy of defense because if not we are to get bombed in our own cities. NO MORE POLITICS OF FEAR!! the cold war ended, let the American people live like PEOPLE, not as fear mongering paranoid maniacs!!

The best way to make friends of our "enemies" is if we re-evaluate our failed foreign policy, that way we won't have anyone to "fear" or to make enemies because we have ran out of them.

Edited for spelling.

[Edited 2007-12-03 14:47:06]
 
cfalk
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 10:57 pm



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 18):
Well considering that we waited constantly from 1945 to early 1990's for the Soviets to attack us that is almost 50 years thinking that we were in constant threat, and not to mention the moneys and the people dead based on cold war propaganda.

We were indeed under threat. You are too young to remember, but I remember when everyone felt it was only a matter of time before somebody screwed up and we all went up. I spent a lot of time in Russia and they felt the same. But we got through it.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 18):
Now the threat has shifted, and

No, it hasn't shifted. This is different, and it relates to why we survived the Cold War.

We survived the Cold War because Americans, Russians, and Chinese do not have a death wish. The USSR and China were indeed atheist, and definately did not want to lose the only lives they had. With MAD in place, nobody on either side wants to die.

But now we have these weapons in the hands of Muslims, whose faith tells them that turning yourself into air pollution, as long as you take some infidels with you, is a glorious and wonderful thing, to be sought after. These aren't Russians who just want to be left alone, these are zealots who think that massive explosions is the expressway to heaven.

If that doesn't scare the willies out of you, I don't know what will.
 
b752fanatic
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:20 pm



Quoting Cfalk (Reply 19):
But now we have these weapons in the hands of Muslims, whose faith tells them that turning yourself into air pollution, as long as you take some infidels with you, is a glorious and wonderful thing, to be sought after. These aren't Russians who just want to be left alone, these are zealots who think that massive explosions is the expressway to heaven.

I am sorry, but your argument doesnt make any sense. Pakistan has nuclear weapons, guess who helped them? The United States of America. And last time I checked Pakistan was a muslim nation.

So the thesis because they are muslims and they shan't have nuclear weapons doesn't work here I am afraid.
 
andessmf
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Mon Dec 03, 2007 11:40 pm



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 20):
Pakistan has nuclear weapons, guess who helped them?

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

OK...nope...

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Let me try this again...*snicker* *guffaw*

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Ok...ok...now I'm good.

So you don't come up with that wonderful misinformation again:

"Pakistan's establishment of its own uranium enrichment capability was so rapid that international suspicion was raised as to whether there was outside assistance to this program. It was reported that Chinese technicians had been at the facility in the early 1980s, but suspicions soon fell on Khan's activities at URENCO."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.Q._Khan

Now it's your chance to provide proof that your statement is correct...
 
b752fanatic
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:12 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 21):

Ok, continue deluding yourself then, and then ask yourself who is more of an ally to the U.S. of A, Pakistan or India? After you come up with an answer then you will find why did Pakistan had to arm themselves, and from whom.

But continue mocking my answer.
 
Flighty
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 1:55 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 9):
Once they have one the genie is out and it's very hard to get them to dismantle it

Why would we care if they had a bomb? It's not as if they would use it.

And I don't buy the "oh yes, they're really that crazy" bullocks. Americans have no business talking like that, about anyone. There is only one major war going on right now, and America started. There is only one nation which detonated a nuke over civilians, and it was America.

If Iran is so bad, let's see them detonate a bomb. They won't because they are too civilized. Or if they do, it's lights out in Tehran for about 500 years. They know that.
 
andessmf
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:09 am



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 22):
continue mocking my answer.

Then don't give me so many opportunities to mock you.

And again, I asked for a reference, and you give me none.
 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:21 am



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 22):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 21):

Ok, continue deluding yourself then

Especially as to why AQ was left on the loose for so long. From op cit.
"The former Dutch Prime Minister, Ruud Lubbers, said in early August 2005 that the Government of the Netherlands knew of Dr. A.Q. Khan "stealing" the secrets of nuclear technology but let him go on at two occasions after the CIA expressed their wish to continue monitoring his movements."

Getting back to Iran. There seems to be a theory among the hyperventilating that enriched U235 for reactors and bombs either is the same thing, or that the first can easily be converted to the second. Not so.

Where is Connies when we need him?

Basically, the US is now reporting what the more cautious in previous threads were suggesting. Iran is not directly working to produce nuclear weapons. And apparently it has not been for some years. Prior to 2003 the program must have been a tad adumbral as IIRC at that stage they did not have centrifuges.

Just a random quote from:
Bush: Threat Of World War III If Iran Goes Nuclea (by MadameConcorde Oct 17 2007 in Non Aviation)
Quote: Cfalk From United States, joined Dec 2000, 10280 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted Tue Oct 16 2007 21:41:12 your local time (1 month 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1372 times:t

I think we can take it as a given that Iran is indeed working on nuclear weapons. The number of centrifuges involved,

The fact that you are angry at Bush over this indicates one of two things: 1) You don't mind if Iran has such weapons, or, well, I can't think of any other reason. Can you fill me in? End Quote.

That thread is also worth a look back for Cedars747's cartoon and B752's photographs. The photographs got me giggling again, and I have to keep telling myself - THIS IS SERIOUS.
 
b752fanatic
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 2:40 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 24):
And again, I asked for a reference, and you give me none.

ok,

Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
Especially as to why AQ was left on the loose for so long. From op cit.
"The former Dutch Prime Minister, Ruud Lubbers, said in early August 2005 that the Government of the Netherlands knew of Dr. A.Q. Khan "stealing" the secrets of nuclear technology but let him go on at two occasions after the CIA expressed their wish to continue monitoring his movements."

 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:02 am



Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
And I don't buy the "oh yes, they're really that crazy" bullocks. Americans have no business talking like that, about anyone. There is only one major war going on right now, and America started. There is only one nation which detonated a nuke over civilians, and it was America.

 checkmark  Followed by  rotfl   rotfl   rotfl  Ouch, that hurt.
 
andessmf
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 3:18 am



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 26):
ok,

Fell right into that one, did you not? Again:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 24):
don't give me so many opportunities to mock you.

Per Baroque:

Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
said in early August 2005

It only refers to when it was said, not the actual facts that occurred way before 2001.

Quotes:

During the 1980s and 1990s, the Western governments became increasingly convinced that covert nuclear and ballistic missile collaboration was taking place between China, Pakistan, and North Korea.

In October 1990, the activities of KRL led to the United States terminating economic and military aid to Pakistan, following this, the Government of Pakistan agreed to a freeze in its nuclear weapons development program. But Khan, in a July 1996 interview with the Pakistani weekly Friday Times, said that "at no stage was the program [of producing nuclear weapons-grade enriched uranium] ever stopped".

In 1987, a British newspaper reported that Khan had confirmed Pakistan's acquisition of a nuclear weapons development capability, by his saying that the U.S. intelligence report "about our possessing the bomb (nuclear weapon) is correct and so is speculation of some foreign newspapers".[citation needed] Khan's statement was disavowed by the Government of Pakistan. and initially he denied giving it, but he later retracted his denial. In October 1991, the Pakistani newspaper Dawn reported that Khan had repeated his claim at a dinner meeting of businessmen and industrialists in Karachi, which "sent a wave of jubilation" through the audience

The Bush administration continued to investigate Pakistani nuclear weapons proliferation, ratcheting up the pressure on the Pakistani government in 2001 and 2002 and focusing on Khan's personal role.

End qoutes:

Pakistan tested their first nuclear weapon in 1998.

Tell us this, who was president then?
 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:44 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 28):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):
said in early August 2005

It only refers to when it was said, not the actual facts that occurred way before 2001.

Of course it does, that is the time Ruud chose to speak out and indicate the reasons AQ was allowed to get aways with it.

And what he was irritated about was way before whoever was President in 1998

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 28):
Tell us this, who was president then?

Back in fact to the 80s. And you will have to remind me who was President then and what exactly his policy was in relation to Pakistan and Muslim extremists. I cannot seem to find any references to that, but I am confident you will know.

There was a Gorbadir someone or other and oh, on the tip of my tongue.

But don't worry, we were defeating the Evil Empire, presumably so we could allow the Axis of Evil to arise, phoenix like from the grave of the EE.
 
andessmf
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:59 am



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 22):
Ok, continue deluding yourself then, and then ask yourself who is more of an ally to the U.S. of A, Pakistan or India? After you come up with an answer then you will find why did Pakistan had to arm themselves, and from whom.

Baroque, the implication was that Pakistan was forced to arm themselves due to a perceived threat from the US and India. Fact of the matter now is that India and the US are allies now. Fact of the matter is that Pakistan decided to obtain nuclear arms to counteract India, and India got them way before to counteract China. Fact is Pakistan exploded their first in 1998, way before the 'War on Terrorism' even started.

Ask any Indian about this and see what they tell you, cause I already confirmed this with them.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
And you will have to remind me who was President then and what exactly his policy was in relation to Pakistan and Muslim extremists

Rewriting history?

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 28):
In October 1990, the activities of KRL led to the United States terminating economic and military aid to Pakistan



Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
But don't worry, we were defeating the Evil Empire, presumably so we could allow the Axis of Evil to arise, phoenix like from the grave of the EE.

You guys are getting your info from where? Pravda?
 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:19 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 30):
You guys are getting your info from where? Pravda?

That is odd, I could have sworn a few other things happened, but you must be right. Only victors can write history.

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 30):
Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 28):
In October 1990, the activities of KRL led to the United States terminating economic and military aid to Pakistan


So that must have proved a very effective bit of policy. Let the guy go, terminate aid, and set him loose on the world market selling his technology. Yep, the free market solution, I can see that it worked too.
 
andessmf
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:25 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
Let the guy go, terminate aid, and set him loose on the world market selling his technology

1. It is up to Pakistan to arrest him, and they consider him a national hero. He was placed under house arrest temporarily.

2. Are you saying that there is/was a guy loose selling nuclear technology? But we cannot act upon those countries who may have received assistance from a guy who already developed nuclear weapons? What does this do to GWB preemptive actions methods?

3. You can't have it both ways, complain on one hand about our preemptive actions, and complain about the true story of a dude that SOLD nuclear technology, and that we 'set him loose'.
 
BN747
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:29 am

From United States, joined Dec 2000, 10280 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted Wed Oct 17 2007 17:15:08 your local time (1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1329 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
I would favor just waiting around until somebody actually does something wrong, rather than doing a big thought-crimes witch hunt.

In the old days before nukes, I would agree. But I am not ready to accept a nuke going off in Miami or LA (well, maybe not LA) because the US government did not move fast enough.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 25):

Bush: Threat Of World War III If Iran Goes Nuclea (by MadameConcorde Oct 17 2007 in Non Aviation)
Quote: Cfalk From United States, joined Dec 2000, 10280 posts, RR: 56
Reply 11, posted Tue Oct 16 2007 21:41:12 your local time (1 month 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1372 times:t

I think we can take it as a given that Iran is indeed working on nuclear weapons. The number of centrifuges involved,

The fact that you are angry at Bush over this indicates one of two things: 1) You don't mind if Iran has such weapons, or, well, I can't think of any other reason. Can you fill me in? End Quote.

Ah ha...

...And ANOTHER 'Cfalk gem' from that same thread...


From United States, joined Dec 2000, 10280 posts, RR: 56
Reply 14, posted Wed Oct 17 2007 17:15:08 your local time (1 month 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1329 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 8):
I would favor just waiting around until somebody actually does something wrong, rather than doing a big thought-crimes witch hunt.

In the old days before nukes, I would agree. But I am not ready to accept a nuke going off in Miami or LA (well, maybe not LA) because the US government did not move fast enough.



...see that last line? It's that same 'mentality that fell for the sack of 'sh*t' that landed us in Baghdad - the longest US war on the books so far [and most stupid]. And here just six weeks ago... when Bush Inc was beating the war drums (for Iran) with the same faulty playbook it threw out there previously..now suckering people to buy it for Iran. And it is proof that fear works over and over again.

W.C. Fields was 100% correct... the same people who fell for this crap last time are so willing and eager to fall for it again. Not a thing has changed..okay the 'Q' became an 'N'... but the script is the exact same line of crap and how some people can 'fall for it again' is proof enough to me that we really ought to consider changing our slogan from the 'The land of the free, home of the brave' ... to the 'Land of less freedom, home of Brave (except "say" Al-Qaeda or play an OBL video.. and watch how many Americans crap their pants) and turf of the Gullible'... we'll fall for just about anything a proven bumbling idiot (clown in video -reply #3) can spook us with. Make that some of us will..not all, but enough to really be concerned.

Can we keep some of the illegal aliens in exchange for some 'fell-for-it-twice' gullible Americans?


BN747
 
dl021
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:30 am



Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 13):
Because you and I have a different mentality, that's all.

Yeah...you're deluded and I'm not....I apologize if I seem insulting...but I'm being literal. You are suffering under several delusions, including the idea that offering a quote after your post as a valid reference is acceptable as a proof.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 13):
The only nation that has ever used an atomic weapon with another country has been the US. And that is a fact, all the rest are suppositions and opinions based on post soviet era-Pentagon propaganda (based on perpetual war for perpetual peace).

You've got it really set in....you think that using a fact completely out of context justifies your way of thinking?

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 14):
When was the last time we were attacked by a nuke?

God almight, son...when you do want to take the chance?

Quoting Arrow (Reply 17):
This is the nub of the problem: how much proof is necessary before you launch a first strike against someone who appears to be building nukes?

This is indeed ....and I'm not for erring on the side of diplomacy.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 17):
These intelligence reports, to my mind, indicate there is nothing remotely close to the level of "proof" required to justify military strikes that would kill god knows how many people. I can't see anyone using that as a pretext for military intervention.

These are the same intelligence agencies that in 2003 were telling us Iraq had WMDs sitting around waiting for us to find....and people despised them for it and then claimed them to be wrong. Now they issue a statement saying that the capability is the same, the timetable is still valid, but the intentions aren't there based on heretofore unheard of covert sources....similar to the covert sources that said that the chemical stockpile in Iraq was just buried under the next rockpile.
Speaking from experience in humint I'll say that the difference between empirical evidence and theoretical analysis is this.....capability is there....intent is opinion and subject to change, therefore cannot be taken as absolute fact until after the fact.

So...you're a reasonable person....are you willing to give them the benefit of the doubt where nuclear power is concerned or do you think we should insist that they give up the production of such fuel, buying it from sources elsewhere and disposing of the spent fuel in a public and transparent manner with the penalty for non-compliance the forcible elimination of their nuclear capability?

Quoting Arrow (Reply 17):
"we don't want the proof to come in the form of a mushroom cloud" line that was shamelessly peddled ahead of the last pre-emptive strike in 2003.

Shamelessly? If the probability of such a cloud is over 1% I'm not really happy. If the possibility of a rogue state possessing such weapons reaches likelihood then I'm really not happy....they support terrorists with lawyers, guns and money and are more than willing to train Tarik the Headless IED Maker to kill our troops right now. Why would they not arm terrorists with some weapon where the fuel is not registered anywhere, and use that to either blackmail us or hit us with a difficult to source weapon making it tough for us to justify turning their nation into a glass parking lot? The economic damage it would do to North America would be spectacular, and the rest of the world would reel from this. It wouldn't hurt their nation that terribly if they managed to avoid the blame and avoid the retaliation since they're fairly cut off from a significant segment of the worlds economy anyway.

SHameless? THat's what I would call ignoring the likely reasons out of some dislike for the political forces in charge of the US.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 18):
Well considering that we waited constantly from 1945 to early 1990's for the Soviets to attack us that is almost 50 years thinking that we were in constant threat,

You are not really well versed in history. The expansionist tendencies of the USSR were fairly well documented (look up Comintern) and their tactics and strategies required opposition in strength. I guess I'm officially old, since I find myself wondering what we're teaching the kids today.....shit, I'm only 40.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 18):
NO MORE POLITICS OF FEAR!! the cold war ended, let the American people live like PEOPLE, not as fear mongering paranoid maniacs!!

Now you're getting hysterical. Calm down. Try to reason logically.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 18):
The best way to make friends of our "enemies" is if we re-evaluate our failed foreign policy, that way we won't have anyone to "fear" or to make enemies because we have ran out of them.

What color is the sky in your world?

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 20):
I am sorry, but your argument doesnt make any sense.

I was just thinking the same about yours....all of them.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 20):
Pakistan has nuclear weapons, guess who helped them? The United States of America

Er...I thought it was China and North Korea.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 22):
Ok, continue deluding yourself then, and then ask yourself who is more of an ally to the U.S. of A, Pakistan or India? After you come up with an answer then you will find why did Pakistan had to arm themselves, and from whom.

They were worried about India...that's why they created their nuclear arsenal. India developed their weapons in response to the Chinese threat. Any more conspiracy theories?

Are you related to B744F? Better known as the cricket? I ask because your writing style reminds me of him.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
And I don't buy the "oh yes, they're really that crazy" bullocks. Americans have no business talking like that, about anyone. There is only one major war going on right now, and America started

Wow....you sure we started that war....were we the ones shooting missiles at our own airplanes? Did we invade Kuwait and then violate the terms of the cease fire? Just checking?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 23):
If Iran is so bad, let's see them detonate a bomb. They won't because they are too civilized.

You really think so? I think the theocracy that runs Iran would do so since they obviously don't value their own people. The one thing that keeps their population from turning against them...well the other thing is the secret police but that's beside the point...is that they keep beating this nuclear and anti-US/Israel drum to rally their people to the flag. Otherwise there'd probably be a new revolution there tossing out the mullahs from political power.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
we were defeating the Evil Empire, presumably so we could allow the Axis of Evil to arise, phoenix like from the grave of the EE.

Ignoring geopolitical realities in the monday morning quarterbacking? Its easy to beat up on the policies when you have the benefit of hindsight and not the need to actually accomplish a difficult task.
 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:56 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 32):

Quoting Baroque (Reply 31):
Let the guy go, terminate aid, and set him loose on the world market selling his technology

1. It is up to Pakistan to arrest him, and they consider him a national hero. He was placed under house arrest temporarily.

2. Are you saying that there is/was a guy loose selling nuclear technology? But we cannot act upon those countries who may have received assistance from a guy who already developed nuclear weapons? What does this do to GWB preemptive actions methods?

3. You can't have it both ways, complain on one hand about our preemptive actions, and complain about the true story of a dude that SOLD nuclear technology, and that we 'set him loose'.

Possibly it was preempting European interests in having AQ arrested for espionage that has caused a great deal of the problem. You don't think that cutting money off to Pakistan might have had something to do with AQ's international sales efforts fairly obviously backed by GoP (that is Gov of Pakistan, before you take a hissy fit!)?

As you tell the story, I think I WILL have it both ways, and be able to make a meal of it. Leave it to us said the CIA, so they did.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 29):
we were defeating the Evil Empire, presumably so we could allow the Axis of Evil to arise, phoenix like from the grave of the EE.

Ignoring geopolitical realities in the monday morning quarterbacking? Its easy to beat up on the policies when you have the benefit of hindsight and not the need to actually accomplish a difficult task.

Which task was that exactly? I think you might find that Gorbachev thinks he took the decisions that ended the USSR for reasons other than Ronnie breathing down his neck.

As for Russian expansion, someone should check exactly what happened and why in the aftermath of WWII. Who was occupying most of Austria at the end of hostilities and did they stay there. Was there a zone of influence that Stalin had set out and that FDR had accepted.

Was Curtis Le May a normal balanced human? Many other questions.
 
andessmf
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:12 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 35):
as Curtis Le May a normal balanced human?

After reading your posts, I get the feeling you are not qualified to make that determination.
 
Arrow
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:15 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
o...you're a reasonable person....are you willing to give them the benefit of the doubt where nuclear power is concerned or do you think we should insist that they give up the production of such fuel, buying it from sources elsewhere and disposing of the spent fuel in a public and transparent manner with the penalty for non-compliance the forcible elimination of their nuclear capability?

In the absence of clear evidence of hanky panky, yes, give them the benefit of the doubt. The consensus of, what was it, 16 intelligence agencies is that they stopped the weapons program. Explain to me, in view of that, how you can justify taking any kind of military action against them.

I don't think you understand what the real issue here is for most folks. It isn't Iran and the bomb -- of course no one wants them to make one. It's credibility. GWB is rattling the sabre (again) with talk of WW3 while his intelligence experts are saying they stopped the weapons program years ago. I trust GWB to tell the truth on this about as far as I can throw him, and I have a bad back.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 34):
Shamelessly?

Absolutely. Those charlatans knew the yellowcake case against Saddam was paper thin, but they pushed it anyway. They kept on pushing it even after the whole charade was blown wide open. Why? because without that and the equally-discredited WMDs line, they couldn't propagate the climate of fear in America needed to get the buy-in for their war.

Now we're supposed to believe they are being honest and forthright about Iran? Don't make me laugh. It's another round of fear-mongering, and I think enough people have died already as a result of the first round.
 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:46 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 36):

Quoting Baroque (Reply 35):
as Curtis Le May a normal balanced human?

After reading your posts, I get the feeling you are not qualified to make that determination.

This is relatively mild, I could have cited Dr Strangelove. There is also a devastating (US) documentary on him.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curtis_LeMay

"During the Cuban Missile Crisis in 1962, LeMay clashed again with President John F. Kennedy and Defense Secretary McNamara, arguing that he should be allowed to bomb nuclear sites in Cuba, even though he himself estimated that his planes could take out only about 90 percent of these sites (post-crisis analysis hypothesized that such attacks would have missed significantly more missiles than that). He opposed the naval blockade, and after the end of the crisis, suggested that Cuba be invaded anyway, even after the Russians agreed to withdraw.

LeMay's dislike for tactical aircraft and training backfired in the low-intensity conflict of Vietnam, where existing Air Force interceptor aircraft and standard attack profiles proved incapable of carrying out sustained tactical bombing campaigns in the face of hostile North Vietnamese anti-aircraft defenses. Aircraft losses on tactical attack missions soared, and Air Force commanders soon realized that their large, missile-armed aircraft were exceedingly vulnerable not only to anti-aircraft shells and missiles, but also to cannon-armed, maneuverable Soviet fighter jets.

In the end, LeMay's call for a sustained strategic bombing campaign against North Vietnamese cities, harbors, ports, shipping, and other strategic targets did not take place. The limited interdictive bombing of fluid enemy supply corridors in Vietnam, Laos and Cambodia failed to either reach a significant quantity of enemy war supplies or destroy enemy morale. Even if full-scale strategic bombing had been approved, political limitations imposed by President Johnson on bombing Soviet and Chinese ships and cargo at the point of importation prevented any realistic evaluation of the effectiveness of a strategic air campaign in Vietnam. At the very end of the war, the limited Operation Linebacker II air campaign did succeed in forcing the North Vietnamese government to return to treaty negotiations."
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:06 am



Quoting B752fanatic (Thread starter):
halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003

and this means
A) 4/four years ago
B) before the actual nuclear development program started
and this in fact means that there NEVER WAS a nuclear WEAPONS program, and confirms that Iran simply has a program to get nuclear energy for its infrastructural and industrial programs.
 
andessmf
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:18 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 39):
and confirms that Iran simply has a program to get nuclear energy for its infrastructural and industrial programs.

Answer this one then:

"Tehran is pushing ahead with its uranium enrichment programme, which has only limited civilian use and could be quickly converted to nuclear military use."

Or this one:

"The decision to publish the NIE is aimed at trying to recover the public credibility lost when the agencies wrongly claimed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in the years leading up to 2003."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2221486,00.html

The NIE have been shown to be incredible wrong before, but this time you believe them?
 
davestanKSAN
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:36 am

I'm interested in knowing what some of you would do to deal with Iran? Another pre-emptive war? I don't really see any viable solutions in this thread, perhaps I haven't been looking hard enough. Thanks.

Dave
 
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:40 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 40):
"Tehran is pushing ahead with its uranium enrichment programme, which has only limited civilian use and could be quickly converted to nuclear military use."

-
The uranium enrichment program is an important part of the production of nuclear energy. Enriched uranium is a basic part of any civilian use.
-

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 40):
"The decision to publish the NIE is aimed at trying to recover the public credibility lost when the agencies wrongly claimed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction in the years leading up to 2003."

To put the record straight, Iraqi in the 1980ies in the Tuwaitha-Baghdad Centre of the IAEC Tuwaitha HAD a program to develop nuclear weapons, and Iraq in the 1980ies also DID work on chemical and biological weapons. The IAEC Tuwaitha Centre in the 1980ies also purchased laboratory material produced in Boston, London, Paris and Milano.
--- All this however came to a standstill in 1991 and the various programs were NOT resumed due to the embargo.
 
andessmf
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:50 am



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
The uranium enrichment program is an important part of the production of nuclear energy. Enriched uranium is a basic part of any civilian use.

No, this part:

Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 40):
which has only limited civilian use



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 42):
To put the record straight..

We still don't have a viable answer to what exactly was destroyed in Syria, another failure by intelligence agencies.
 
BN747
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:02 am



Quoting DavestanKSAN (Reply 41):
I'm interested in knowing what some of you would do to deal with Iran? Another pre-emptive war? I don't really see any viable solutions in this thread, perhaps I haven't been looking hard enough. Thanks.

Leave them the hell alone!


Secondly, work the psychological angle with the overwhelmingly large population of youth in the country to sway them away from hardcore islamic beliefs -- after all they are the ones who'll be in-charge when the damn place actually does come into range of developing WMDs.

Currently this is the same Iran Forces who fought the Iraqi Army forever -- to a stand-still...

..the same Iraq Army who collapsed at like a deck of cards on two (US) encounters.

..they're not a threat. Stop being a fool (not you Dave -- they know who they are), stop believing the hype...

BN747
 
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:07 am



Quoting AndesSMF (Reply 43):
We still don't have a viable answer to what exactly was destroyed in Syria, another failure by intelligence agencies.

-
Looking at pictures the Israelis presented, the thing looked like a warehouse for agricultural machinery, and was so easily visible that it is rather hard to imagine that it was really important. And the Israelis only attacked it in a rather minor way. To me, it was a kind of demonstration of the Israelis that they can reach any point if they really want. It however is known more or less at least, that Syria, Egypt, Algeria and Morocco have started (re-started in case of Egypt) work on civil nuclear programs, and the Israelis of course are eager to preserve their nuclear arms monopoly in the Middle East.
 
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viaggiare
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:44 am



Quoting RJdxer (Reply 4):
The new estimate says that enrichment program could still provide Iran with enough raw material to produce a nuclear weapon sometime by the middle of next decade

Never mind U.S. intelligence estimates. You'll know when Iran was close enough to putting together a nuke... when Israel scrambles its bombers, a la Osirak.

Quoting B752fanatic (Reply 8):
how do you know Costa Rica could be building a weapon

 redflag  First it was summary executions, then martial law, now... a secret weapons program?  rotfl 

Here's a declassified photo of the Costa Rican "Armed" Forces:

 
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yowza
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:08 am

If I'm not mistaken ,the US has been wrong about this kind of thing in the past on one occasion... or more. Frankly, I think the US is blowing up a tiny little piece of info into a big story and using it as a means of taking some tension out of the situation and backing down without losing face. I like this approach much better than some of the alternatives.


YOWza
 
baroque
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:13 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 44):
Leave them the hell alone!

 checkmark  Damned good idea that.

Like MAF, I am perplexed by the huge significance given to enriching U235. Yes, you need to do that if you want to produce a U bomb, but unless you get a CANDU reactor, you also need to do it for a power reactor. The Iranians say that is the reason they want to enrich the U. Many countries have decided that the sorts of restrictions that for example the US has put on enriched U are not acceptable, so they want to do that part themselves. It is their version of the much heard about strategic need by the US for "energy security".

I have some news there that may surprise. All countries need energy security. All, not some.

The Iranians have said time and time again that the reason to enrich U is for power generation. Some in the US with a Stone Age understanding of energy reserves claim that Iran does not need to generate power from nuclear fission. Iran takes a different view. It knows its oil and gas reserves are finite and wants to preserve them for uses other than power generation. Just because the US fails to believe it, does not mean it is a lie. The US has been wrong before. I cannot recall exactly when but I am sure it will come back to me.

There is a hell of a difference in U enrichment for bombs and for power use which some spokespersons for GoUS and some posters on here either don't know or chose to ignore. Frankly, putting bomb grade U in a nuclear reactor is a very short term strategy for the life of the reactor and your own life if you are at all close!!

Where is Connies when we need him?

As Dave writes, what to do with Iran?. Start talking to them and stop lecturing them?

Try dropping conditions, although you could make it known that talks would go better if they were not being held with the Great Satan. A little bit of ME subtlety will go a long way. Try looking as if you might be friendly. I know it will hurt, but try it for once and see what happens.
 
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cedars747
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RE: U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

Tue Dec 04, 2007 12:21 pm



Quoting B752fanatic (Thread starter):
U.S. Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

I am sure that Iran is helping the US in Iraq Big grin


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