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jafa39
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:11 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 9):
but I don't think you could blame Apple for it under the circumstances

Well now Klaus...who would you blame? Richard Branson, The A.net moderators...the Mormon Church??

Come on, Apple is so far up its own corporate arse that you have to know when they are giving their "Presentations" to avoid buying an outdated device for too much money...that's exactly why they are so furtive about product launches, so they don't have to discount end-of-line or miss sales.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:44 am



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 50):
Well now Klaus...who would you blame? Richard Branson, The A.net moderators...the Mormon Church??

Come on, Apple is so far up its own corporate arse that you have to know when they are giving their "Presentations" to avoid buying an outdated device for too much money...that's exactly why they are so furtive about product launches, so they don't have to discount end-of-line or miss sales.

If you've thought that a certain machine was worth the price for you, then it's simply not "too much money", especially if you just couldn't have been bothered to inform yourself about any incoming successor models. It's nowhere as simple as for Apple who have a large number of web sites dedicated to exactly that.

In the case discussed above, it was even officially announced by Apple themselves that the Intel migration of the entire model range would be done "within a year", so all PowerPC models were officially on their way out, with the PowerBooks being prime candidates for an imminent replacement.

The official announcement of the Intel transition was given by Steve Jobs on June 6th, 2005. The MacBook Pro and the iMac with Intel CPU were presented on January 10th, 2006.

Each of those presentations was extensively discussed in the media and even on a.net.

From a personal point of view I can understand RicciPettit's grumbling, but this one simply can't be blamed on Apple's secrecy because it didn't exist (as an exception).

Apple Intel transition
 
AverageUser
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:07 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 47):
So my personal breal-even point has simply not been reached, even though it's an impressive technical achievement.

So I might still be entirely wrong here, but your own practical experience in the matter actually comes from testing a salesman's device for a limited time?
 
Joni
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:21 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 38):

Not needing to license a costly operating system should already more than pay for the 3G royalties. And their own OS is also unique to them and the main advantage they've got.

Most of the other companies use their jointly owned Symbian system.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 49):
Also part of the report was that the N95 is currently getting outsold by the Iphone in Europe

We have conflicting reports indeed. On the other hand we have over 1 million sold N95s in the UK, and only 26,500 iPhones sold there:

http://www.intomobile.com/2007/11/28...sales-in-the-uk-top-1-million.html
http://blog.wired.com/gadgets/2007/11/iphone-sales-al.html
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:30 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 52):
So I might still be entirely wrong here, but your own practical experience in the matter actually comes from testing a salesman's device for a limited time?

Correct. Plus I've simply informed myself through sources readily available to everybody and I'm drawing from my own background in the development of hard- and software and using all kinds of systems from various manufacturers through the years.

You're always welcome to point out any inconsistencies or inaccuracies in my statements, but thus far I've just been busy with debunking the other way around, it appears.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:43 pm



Quoting Joni (Reply 53):
Most of the other companies use their jointly owned Symbian system.

And others still survive although they're expensively licensing Windows mobile, both being (at least!) a generation behind OS X on the iPhone.

Apple won't have a problem paying any 3G royalties even just with the money saved against that, they'd just have slightly lower margins than usual.

And that is assuming that the holders of said 3G patents won't run into any of Apple's patents on the other hand. Which they might find harder than they thought.

Patent wars are a nuisance all around, but I wouldn'd count on Apple going down in that fight. They've got plenty of experience and quite an arsenal of their own.
 
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casinterest
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:53 pm



Quoting Joni (Reply 53):
We have conflicting reports indeed. On the other hand we have over 1 million sold N95s in the UK, and only 26,500 iPhones sold there:

On the 1 million mark, I don't disagree, but that is a worldwide/since March launch. the point of my article is that it is currently getting outsoldby the Iphone based on channel sources studying current rates of sales. Not the total number .

Either way the IPhone is wildly successful for a 1st gen Cellphone attempt.

Nokia and the other cellphone makers definately are seeing it as a bit of a threat, based on their current competitive responses. This is extremely good for all cellphone customers. as this means marked innovation is still going to come through to the customers advantage.
 
swiftski
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:56 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
We have several iPhone users around here. If you have specific questions, I'm sure you'll get your answers.

*Raises hand*

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 46):
you can't SMS with the device though?

Yes, you can. In fact it is so easy to do that tactile keyboards now annoy me.

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 50):
Come on, Apple is so far up its own corporate arse that you have to know when they are giving their "Presentations" to avoid buying an outdated device for too much money...that's exactly why they are so furtive about product launches, so they don't have to discount end-of-line or miss sales.

D'oh. Remember, Apple will exchange anything purchased within 28 days (aka 1 month in Retail terms) for a current equivalent.

Can you imagine buying a Dell/Toshiba/HP/Generic brand and taking it back a month later for a refund/exchange, and them saying "no worries, here you go".

No. Too far up their own corporate arses.
 
paulc
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:41 pm

Did anybody see The Gadget Show a few weeks ago where they compared the Iphone to the Sony. Very interesting and the Iphone did not come out as being all that good. In particular the WiFi access just would not work at all.

As for me - do not need an iphone for any particular reason. Have net access at work / home and they are less than 15 mins apart. My mobile (Nokia) works just fine and the in phone camera is pointless. It is also very pricey - my nokia cost me about 70 quid and is pay-as you go so works out very cheap compared to having a contract.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:52 pm



Quoting Paulc (Reply 58):
Did anybody see The Gadget Show a few weeks ago where they compared the Iphone to the Sony. Very interesting and the Iphone did not come out as being all that good. In particular the WiFi access just would not work at all.

Well, WiFi obviously does normally work according to testers and users alike, so it's probably been a setup mistake. And it's well established that there are numerous other phones with longer bullet lists.

What the iPhone is about is doing everything it does as well as possible, not doing hundreds of things, but hardly any of them properly as we know it from most gadgets on the market.

Still, of course not everybody needs an iPhone. I'm someone who doesn't even need any mobile phone at all, at least right now...!

Journalists urgently need things to hype or to destroy. What you yourself need is often a completely different issue, and even most iPhone users are just ordinary people who just happen to like the way it works.
 
Joni
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:46 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 55):
Apple won't have a problem paying any 3G royalties even just with the money saved against that, they'd just have slightly lower margins than usual.

I don't doubt they can pay the royalties, but they'll eat into their margins. I don't know what the margin is on iPhone.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 56):
On the 1 million mark, I don't disagree, but that is a worldwide/since March launch

No, it's just in the UK. Here is another source:

http://www.3g.co.uk/PR/Dec2007/5492.htm

Quote:
Europe UK : This week Nokia announced that the N95 handset, noted for its next-generation services including GPS, has sold a million units. This amounts to a significant success for a Smartphone in the UK market.

Also:

http://nseries-mobile.blogspot.com/2...reaches-one-million-milestone.html

Quote:
Nokia N95 reaches one million milestone in the UK

 
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casinterest
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:20 pm



Quoting Joni (Reply 60):

No, it's just in the UK. Here is another source

That's good, you are right on that, and I meant to change my line there,
Either way ,my point is still that currently the Iphone is outselling the N95 on a day to day basis.
 
jafa39
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:27 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 51):
In the case discussed above, it was even officially announced by Apple themselves that the Intel migration of the entire model range would be done "within a year", so all PowerPC models were officially on their way out, with the PowerBooks being prime candidates for an imminent replacement.

The official announcement of the Intel transition was given by Steve Jobs on June 6th, 2005. The MacBook Pro and the iMac with Intel CPU were presented on January 10th, 2006.

Thats all very well for a staggeringly intelligent geek like yourself Klaus but for the ordinary mortal such as myself, I just want to buy a device and use it, I rely on advertising and in-store information.....I find the whole Mac "lifestyle" incredibly smug and geeky and as I live in the ordinary world I expect to know that something new is coming (Microsoft are good at this) and have the option of buying cheap as models that are about to be replaced or paying premium for the latest model.

I don't want to have to look on websites and wait for "offical announcements" I want the info shoved in my face.

To illustrate why I find the Mac lifestyle so irritating, here is a quote from a friend who messaged me through facebook:


"I am casting off my days of PC ownership...I have been to a Mac Church and they explained everything to me"

A "Mac Church"...W-T-F??????? And this is not tongue in cheek, the person concerned is not known for her knockabout sense of humour....

And just to twist the knife mate  Wink...I love Vista!!!!  Smile  Smile
 
2H4
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:53 pm



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 62):

To illustrate why I find the Mac lifestyle so irritating, here is a quote from a friend who messaged me through facebook:

"I am casting off my days of PC ownership...I have been to a Mac Church and they explained everything to me"

I've found that the "lifestyle" you describe is indicative of a loud, annoying minority of Mac users.

2H4
 
mt99
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:06 pm



Quoting Joni (Reply 60):
I don't know what the margin is on iPhone.

They are pretty damn good. Ive heard 50%. Marketing at its best.
 
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casinterest
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:41 pm

Well here we go,
The French, German and UK shopping lists.

Nintendo Wii and Apple iPhone Rank as the Leading Gadgets This Christmas Across Europe Based on Online Search Frequency

Iphone beats out the N95, not by much, but enough that everyone should start considering buying Apple's stock for investment purposes.
 
jafa39
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:56 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 63):
I've found that the "lifestyle" you describe is indicative of a loud, annoying minority of Mac users.

Yeah...sounds about right really.....Klaus? are you listening?  Wink  Wink  Wink
 
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casinterest
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:23 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 64):
They are pretty damn good. Ive heard 50%. Marketing at its best.

I've heard they are even better, based on the revenue sharing model.
 
2H4
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:27 pm



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 66):
Quoting 2H4 (Reply 63):
I've found that the "lifestyle" you describe is indicative of a loud, annoying minority of Mac users.

Yeah...sounds about right really.....Klaus? are you listening?

The debunking of inaccurate and less-than-fully-informed opinions is annoying only to those perpetuating such misinformation...  Wink

2H4
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:40 pm



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 62):
To illustrate why I find the Mac lifestyle so irritating, here is a quote from a friend who messaged me through facebook:

"I am casting off my days of PC ownership...I have been to a Mac Church and they explained everything to me"

A "Mac Church"...W-T-F??????? And this is not tongue in cheek, the person concerned is not known for her knockabout sense of humour....

Goes to show what receding frustration can do for someone's personality...!

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 62):
And just to twist the knife mate  ...I love Vista!!!!

Free advice: First check that the knife isn't stuck in your own belly. Only then start twisting!  mischievous 

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 65):
Well here we go,
The French, German and UK shopping lists.

Nintendo Wii and Apple iPhone Rank as the Leading Gadgets This Christmas Across Europe Based on Online Search Frequency

Iphone beats out the N95, not by much, but enough that everyone should start considering buying Apple's stock for investment purposes.

"Not by much"? Twice or triple the rate does exceed that a little, at least in my book...

As for the stock, that may not be such a bad idea - but the profit one could have made in previous years will be hard to duplicate.



Yahoo - AAPL 5 years

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 67):
Quoting Mt99 (Reply 64):
They are pretty damn good. Ive heard 50%. Marketing at its best.

I've heard they are even better, based on the revenue sharing model.

Which is why Nokia is now attempting to get in on the sweet action - just without an iPhone in hand. What's a manufacturer to do...?

Nokia seeks Apple-style cut in handset revenues

Plus an unsubstantiated but not implausible and certainly interesting letter from a claimed Nokia insider on an Apple rumour/fan site: Luck has it that long-time MacDailyNews reader and frequent link contributor "Mike in Helsinki" also happens to be a 14-year veteran of Nokia who was active in several divisions. "Mike in Helsinki" writes to us via email:

Quote:
Nokia proposes to give away 100 songs tops over a one-year period to folks who download them via their mobile phone (i.e. a mobile phone-centric model versus a PC/Mac-centric model). [These tracks will be] laden with technologically inferior Windows DRM, in cooperation with one catalog so far - Universal, whose clueless CEO Morris only some days ago professed that Apple was trying to suck the value out of the music industry by pricing music at $9.99 an album, and working with a company that time after time after time screws its partners and alienates consumers, For Sureâ„¢.

This is like the blind leading the clueless onto a burning ship...

History has STILL not taught hapless Nokia anything about Microsoft's utter value-destroying, customer-hostile, partner-doublecrossing history.

Two summers ago I sat across the table from a very senior Nokia executive and told him that in my opinion Apple would use its music success to be the battering ram in other endeavors in the future, like mobile telephony. I told him that that all the strengths that Nokia has ... in portable consumer electronics design, global manufacturing and logistics, customer understanding, and the intricacies of mobile phones were competencies Apple either already had or could quickly replicate in short order.

My thesis to this Senior Vice President was that Apple learned how to design, manufacture, distribute and sell mass-market consumer electronics in their iPod business. Apple also leaned how to retail and merchandise this kind of product through its Apple Store experiences and was quickly building other distributor channels. Apple had the tools, or knew where to get the remaining tools, to match mighty Nokia's strengths.

I suggested to him that Nokia, on the other hand, would find it nearly impossible to catch up to Apple's strengths in the same manner that Apple could match Nokia's. Nokia depends on a mobile phone-centric model for things that require a PC/Mac-centric model, like music and video.

[...]

I flatly told him that Nokia should considered Apple to be a very serious threat.

With a straight face, this SVP told me that I was hallucinating.

He proposed that iPod and iTunes was an exception, and would be eclipsed by a Nokia/Microsoft partnership in short order. Why wouldn't he believe that? The largest maker of consumer devices in the world teamed up with a company that has 95% market share of the computer OS business [seems like a sure thing].

[...]

An interesting read, but keep the salt at hand.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 68):
The debunking of inaccurate and less-than-fully-informed opinions is annoying only to those perpetuating such misinformation...

Indeed. The problem with misinformation is that it tends to breed if it's not exterminated in time...  cool 
 
jafa39
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:46 am

Well obviously i need to consult with Klaus before believing ANYTHING! If its fact vs Klauses opinion...well, we know where the truth lies eh?

Ever thought of starting a cult Klaus???  Wink
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:56 am



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 70):
Well obviously i need to consult with Klaus before believing ANYTHING! If its fact vs Klauses opinion...well, we know where the truth lies eh?

Who's talking about absolute truth (except you, maybe)? I have no problems with opposing arguments - if there actually are discernible arguments. So where are they?

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 70):
Ever thought of starting a cult Klaus???

No. Enforced conformity is utterly pointless. (Other forms of conformity possibly not deserving that "utterly".)
 
jafa39
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:46 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 71):
So where are they?

I dunno....I thought you were the one who knew everything  Wink  Wink
 
Joni
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:50 am



Quoting CasInterest (Reply 61):
Either way ,my point is still that currently the Iphone is outselling the N95 on a day to day basis.

Even that is disputable (using UK figures as figures from non-UK countries don't appear to be easy to find)

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/23/iphone_activations/

states iphone sold 26,500 units in two weeks in the UK, for 1900 per day
N95 sold one million March through November, for a total of 4200 per day.

So the N95 appears to be selling at twice the rate of the the iPhone, and this is during the early "frenzy" for the Apple device compared to 8 months of N95 sales.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 65):
Iphone beats out the N95, not by much, but enough that everyone should start considering buying Apple's stock for investment purposes.

This is in internet search activity, not sales.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:44 am



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 72):
I dunno....I thought you were the one who knew everything

One more thing you thought you knew but didn't...! Big grin

Quoting Joni (Reply 73):
So the N95 appears to be selling at twice the rate of the the iPhone, and this is during the early "frenzy" for the Apple device compared to 8 months of N95 sales.

Well, I'd say that the browser statistics give a hint that the iPhone appears to establish itself quite well - not just as a status phone that could access the internet when absolutely necessary but as one that is being used to access the internet in daily life.

What the sales numbers really are will probably remain in the tea leaves for a while to come, but how likely, do you think, is it that the iPhone will turn out to be a "flop" as in the thread title? I wouldn't bet on it, that much is certain.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:49 pm

The iphone is the prototype of high-tech items nobody really needs but due to smart marketing and networking,Steve has managed to create a hype.
Why on earth would someone line up for hours in front of shops,get milked with hefty monthly connection fees,to finally end up with a small screen that allows him to do what he can do on his PC or Laptop better and cheaper.
Although Telecom Engineer by diploma,I always refused to buy into useless feature selling of trend-items.
A mobile phone is still mainly a tool to make phone-calls-so why the heck would I want to surf on the internet on a tiny screen or listen to musical-clips I'm not interested in ? Sometime you wonder if grown-ups have not understood what the marketing managers of consumer-article manufacturers want us all to become- addicts to high-tech junk !
 
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casinterest
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:27 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 75):
Why on earth would someone line up for hours in front of shops,get milked with hefty monthly connection fees,to finally end up with a small screen that allows him to do what he can do on his PC or Laptop better and cheaper

Because some people have to travel, and the Iphone, makes a better tool for getting the job done.

Either way, something is selling. I have made doubled my money investing in the company.
If you have ever been to a store and used one, you would understand how good it is.

Quoting Joni (Reply 73):
This is in internet search activity, not sales.

Wow, you are mighty pessimistic. Ever held an Iphone? I have tried the N95 and the Iphone. The N95 has nice features, but they are buried under a horrible GUI.
 
2H4
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:42 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 75):
The iphone is the prototype of high-tech items nobody really needs

I'd argue people DO need the items. If they didn't, there would be no demand for small digital cameras, pocket organizers, iPods, cell phones, and maps. Nor would there be any demand for instant web access and information.

By your logic, we don't "need" our cars, either. After all, there are alternatives like buses, trains, bicycles, and horses.  Wink

2H4
 
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moo
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:44 pm



Quoting Beaucaire (Reply 75):
Why on earth would someone line up for hours in front of shops,get milked with hefty monthly connection fees,to finally end up with a small screen that allows him to do what he can do on his PC or Laptop better and cheaper.

1. The rates in the UK aren't as bad as people are making out - on O2 you get unlimited data, which before the iPhone was £30 odd a month itself, and you also get free access to The Cloud wifi network, which is around £8 a month again. When you actually add it all up, its not a bad tariff - not spectacularly great, but not bad.

2. Theres no connection charge, just the charge for the phone itself.

3. I was paying £35 a month on O2 on my contract before the iPhone, so its a zero sum game for me.

4. The last time I went on a training course (mid October), I didn't bother taking my laptop as my iPod Touch did 80% of what I needed. The next time I go on a training course (next week) I will be taking my iPhone, because it does 100% of what I need. Hell of a lot less hassle. Hell of a lot less to carry around. Hell of a lot less to get stolen as it won't ever get left in the hotel room.

5. Ever tried whipping out your laptop in the middle of a busy London street at 7.30pm to fire up Google Maps because you are lost? I thought not.

With the SDK coming out in February, its looking better and better (although I am currently heavily involved in iPhone development through jailbreaking et al as it stands).
 
Joni
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:49 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 74):
Well, I'd say that the browser statistics give a hint that the iPhone appears to establish itself quite well - not just as a status phone that could access the internet when absolutely necessary but as one that is being used to access the internet in daily life.

I think the browser stats were from the US, the stats from e.g. www.guardian.co.uk would likely paint an altogether different picture.

Quoting CasInterest (Reply 76):
Wow, you are mighty pessimistic. Ever held an Iphone? I have tried the N95 and the Iphone. The N95 has nice features, but they are buried under a horrible GUI.

I've held an IPhone on a test stand, but not owned one and I'm unlikely to own one. The N95 UI is very familiar to everyone who's used S60 devices in the past, I may be partial since I've had an S60 device for years and currently own a N95. Granted I don't often take video material with the phone, but I do occasionally and I MMS almost daily - something you can't do with the iPhone, I'm told. I also use the aGPS feature of N95 when in unfamiliar spots, and it works perfectly: finds a lock in seconds and downloads maps over-the-air in realtime.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:52 pm



Quoting Joni (Reply 79):
I think the browser stats were from the US, the stats from e.g. www.guardian.co.uk would likely paint an altogether different picture.

Probably - the iPhone has been on sale in the UK for a much shorter time thus far than in the US.

I'd look at the trend first and foremost...
 
AverageUser
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:03 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 54):
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 52):
So I might still be entirely wrong here, but your own practical experience in the matter actually comes from testing a salesman's device for a limited time?

Correct. Plus I've simply informed myself through sources readily available to everybody

Ok. Thanks for letting us know your position in the actual iPhone user ranks. In other words, you've read the so called holy scriptures ans pass the Good Story on.

I actually almost managed to see one myself. There are apparently something called "patches" to free the phone part from something -- I'm sure someone here had read what we are talking about better than me. Well, someone in a workshop type business I visit sometimes was wrestling with a client's phone that had had the patch "stick to a wrong place" so to speak.

I turned my head away. I'm just fed up with those gizmos, all brands. People mainly shop them for showoff and to boost their rank among their peers. Few have other than imaginary uses for most of the functions.

But I'm glad such a respected user figure ("fanboy", as someone put it) as Klaus seems to agree with me -- better talk about one than buy one!
 
2H4
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:14 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 81):
In other words, you've read the so called holy scriptures ans pass the Good Story on.

No, he's formed an opinion and is communicating it. Your accusational attitude is tiresome and unnecessary, AverageUser.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 81):
People mainly shop them for showoff and to boost their rank among their peers.

Prove it. You present this as fact, when in reality it is nothing more than an impression.

2H4
 
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moo
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:17 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 81):

I actually almost managed to see one myself. There are apparently something called "patches" to free the phone part from something -- I'm sure someone here had read what we are talking about better than me. Well, someone in a workshop type business I visit sometimes was wrestling with a client's phone that had had the patch "stick to a wrong place" so to speak.

You can do one of two things -

1. Unlock the phone, so it can be used on other networks via a different SIM card
2. Jailbreak the phone, so you can install third party applications on it

They are very different things, and both involve tinkering with things that Apple do not wish you to be tinkering with - the procedures for either can result in a non-working phone quite easily. After you have done this, updating the phone with an Apple supplied update could result in a non-working phone, as Apple (rightly) do not check for these changes.

In short, do it at your own risk.
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:41 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 82):
Quoting AverageUser (Reply 81):
In other words, you've read the so called holy scriptures ans pass the Good Story on.

No, he's formed an opinion and is communicating it. Your accusational attitude is tiresome and unnecessary, AverageUser.


Prove it, 2H4!

[Edited 2007-12-11 09:43:38]
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:46 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 83):
You can do one of two things -

1. Unlock the phone, so it can be used on other networks via a different SIM card
2. Jailbreak the phone, so you can install third party applications on it

Thanks for the productive input! I'm now a lot wiser in this respect.

But still look the other way when I encounter these gizmos and think they are MAINLY for showing off,
sorry 2H4.

[Edited 2007-12-11 09:53:44]
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:41 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 85):
But still look the other way when I encounter these gizmos and think they are MAINLY for showing off

Now that's a statement I can respect!  yes 

Though I tend to disagree with it, I absolutely understand what you're saying.

2H4
 
Pyrex
Posts: 4821
Joined: Thu Aug 25, 2005 7:24 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:54 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 69):
As for the stock, that may not be such a bad idea - but the profit one could have made in previous years will be hard to duplicate.

Of course Apple is a good company for shareholders, it's whole business model is based on screwing over consumers repeatedly. If you go to any textbook on economics and go through all the ways a company can extract consumer surplus (be it tie-in sales, bundling, abuse of dominant position or anything else) you can pretty much check all the boxes.

Quoting Moo (Reply 78):
The rates in the UK aren't as bad as people are making out

Yes they are. The simple fact that you are forced to take a service you do not want (a subscription to O2) in order to purchase an unrelated item you do want (an electronic equipment) means consumers are getting screwed (as regulatory decisions in Germany and elsewhere have shown).

Quoting Moo (Reply 83):
and both involve tinkering with things that Apple do not wish you to be tinkering with

Too bad Apple can't do jack sh*t about it, as once they leave the store the phones are yours (I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple going completely against private property laws, mind you, but for now they have a bit more of shame to do that).
 
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ManuCH
Posts: 2679
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2005 12:33 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:00 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 85):
But still look the other way when I encounter these gizmos and think they are MAINLY for showing off,
sorry 2H4.

Did I miss something? Couldn't it be that someone wants an iPhone (or another similar gadget) because he loves the features? I have an N95, and definitely don't want to show it off. I just love the fact that I can get my emails and occasionally look at a website I need while not at home or near a computer. I'm sure an iPhone would do it even better, but I can't buy one in Switzerland yet (unless I crack a US-model or shell out 649 Euros for a French one).

So what? Of course there will be people going "oohhh wow!", but that's not my purpose. For someone that might be it, but certainly not for everyone, nor for the majority. Heck, what is someone who needs those features supposed to do? Suck it up and *not* have them, only because some people are annoyed thinking it's a show-off?  Yeah sure
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:03 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 59):
What the iPhone is about is doing everything it does as well as possible, not doing hundreds of things, but hardly any of them properly as we know it from most gadgets on the market.

How much can u do using only one-hand on the iphone? I read somewhere that Nokia optimized menus and functions in such a way that allows for one-handed operation.

EDGE data transfer sucks. No question about it. My friend has one - he tries to show off by playing funny youtube videos, and the damn thing takes so long to get going i actually feel that he is embarrassing himself.

The other day he insisted on using it to find out a movie time. Took him 5 minutes.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:18 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 89):
How much can u do using only one-hand on the iphone?

I've actually been getting the hang of it. I mainly use one hand for iPod functions, and it works pretty well.

One complaint I have is with touchscreens in general - when driving, the lack of tactile feedback requires the driver to avert his/her eyes from the road.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 89):
EDGE data transfer sucks. No question about it.

Absolutely. Overall, I'm dissatisfied with the speed of the EDGE network.

Still, despite these complaints, I am very satisfied with the iPhone. Having owned it for awhile now, I would really miss it if I had to switch to something else.

2H4
 
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moo
Posts: 5109
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:33 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 87):

Yes they are. The simple fact that you are forced to take a service you do not want (a subscription to O2) in order to purchase an unrelated item you do want (an electronic equipment) means consumers are getting screwed (as regulatory decisions in Germany and elsewhere have shown).

Apart from the fact that the German regulators ruled that neither Apple nor T-Mobile was breaking any law by bundling, and T-Mobile can continue to sell locked phones with no unlocked phone being offered. And thats what they are doing currently.

You aren't forced to take anything - you can live without the iPhone you know.

Its a fucking phone, where the hell did this massive sense of sudden entitlement come from? Where did this attitude of 'I want it on *my* terms and no one elses, and I should be able to have it that way' come from? If you don't like the package, don't buy it - but stop whinging and complaining that evil Apple won't cater to your express whims.

Apple can sell the damn thing any way they like within reason, and you aren't entitled to a damn thing.

The O2 package isn't bad considering, and that's coming from someone who has been forking out £35 for the past 18 months on a much much worse package when all is taken into consideration.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 87):
Too bad Apple can't do jack sh*t about it, as once they leave the store the phones are yours (I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple going completely against private property laws, mind you, but for now they have a bit more of shame to do that).

Apple can do jack shit about it - they can not support it, and they can actively not support it via not checking for it or accommodating it during an upgrade.

Fancy that nice new feature in the next firmware (most likely to be video capture, going by the developer seeding of the SDK)? Tough, you are going to lose all your nice apps you spent so long installing on your unlocked phone because the update relocks the phone. Oh, and the new firmware won't be as easy to unlock or jailbreak.

People are already seeing this with the 1.1.2 firmware - phones with it can be unlocked or jailbroken, but it requires a downgrade to a 1.1.1 version firmware to do it. Which means no international keyboard support or a bunch of other stuff. Also some mods can leave your phone unusable after a firmware upgrade because the phone was not in a known state to begin with.

Caveat Emptor.
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:39 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 91):
where the hell did this massive sense of sudden entitlement come from?

It comes from the amazing branding department at Apple.

Quoting Moo (Reply 91):
'I want it on *my* terms and no one elses

Well hasn't Apple always been a bit of a "rebel" in the computer industry? always in battle with all powerful Microsoft? Now that they are being as draconian as Microsoft - its bound to ruffle some feathers.

As a corporate strategy goes is just textbook. Great job by Apple. They are making a killing, mostly good press, the next wave of cellphones will be directly influences by the iphone. They have changed the cellphone world. Will the iphone be the end-all/be-all in a few years? Maybe, Maybe not.

[Edited 2007-12-11 11:43:41]
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:57 pm

Quoting ManuCH (Reply 88):
Couldn't it be that someone wants an iPhone (or another similar gadget) because he loves the features?

It's more likely he "loves" them because marketing has made the features desirable to him in his financial capacity. They are typically not something that can exist independently out of the context of this particular culture and its wares. Move a few years backward or forward in time and the once hot features are no longer wanted/not yet there. More at "Follies".

[Edited 2007-12-11 12:05:48]
 
User avatar
ManuCH
Posts: 2679
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:02 pm



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 93):
They are typically not something that can exist independently out of the context of this particular culture and its wares.

Well, we happen to exist in our context and in our particular culture. And accessories for this context and culture appear on the market. It would be stupid if it weren't like that.
 
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moo
Posts: 5109
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:03 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 92):
It comes from the amazing branding department at Apple.

I don't see that. How did the branding department at Apple make people turn into nothing more than 6 year old kids in a toy store demanding 'Give me this or I'm going to throw a tantrum'? Because that's whats happening now.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 92):
Well hasn't Apple always been a bit of a "rebel" in the computer industry? always in battle with all powerful Microsoft? Now that they are being as draconian as Microsoft - its bound to ruffle some feathers.

Apple has never been in battle with MS, they have always been the 'other computer manufacturer', and their 'draconian' control of products is nothing new - tried buying OS X to run on your PC?
 
mt99
Posts: 6166
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 5:41 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:16 pm

Quoting Moo (Reply 95):
I don't see that. How did the branding department at Apple make people turn into nothing more than 6 year old kids in a toy store demanding 'Give me this or I'm going to throw a tantrum'? Because that's whats happening now

What you describe is the definition of "branding". With a sprinkle of marketing. What company would not want that kind of costumer? They are not only throwing tantrums they are also throwing money. A job well done.

Quoting Moo (Reply 95):
and their 'draconian' control of products is nothing new - tried buying OS X to run on your PC?

Exactly. But see the market and position themselves as Apple against "The Man". And they do a hell of a job. Even though that they might not practice what they preach.. they still make people believe that they do.

No doubt that the iphone does some things extremely well. But at the end of the day Its all about image and brand management.

[Edited 2007-12-11 12:20:32]
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:20 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 92):
Will the iphone be the end-all/be-all in a few years? Maybe, Maybe not.

From what I've seen, the media is the only source suggesting that the iPhone is intended to be the be-all/end-all.

I haven't seen significant numbers of iPhone owners, or indeed, even Apple suggest that the phone is everything to everyone. Apple has merely demonstrated that the iPhone is many things to many people. The distinction is important.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 93):
It's more likely he "loves" them because marketing has made the features desirable to him in his social position.

Features can....and are....worthy of purchase without regard to their effect on 'social position'. As someone who actually uses the features as tools, and not as a means to elevate social status, I rather dislike being labeled as someone concerned with the latter.

Honestly, iPhone naysayers.....this constant fixation on owning an iPhone solely for its 'coolness' and 'social status' is getting extremely old. I'm convinced YOU....more so than even the iPhone 'fanboys'....are the ones perpetuating this drivel.

2H4
 
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moo
Posts: 5109
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:25 pm



Quoting Mt99 (Reply 96):
What you describe is the definition of "branding". With a sprinkle of marketing. What company would not want that kind of costumer? They are not only throwing tantrums they are also throwing money. A job well done.

No, marketing and branding is getting the customer to buy on *your* terms, not the customers own terms - and that's what we are seeing now, people deluding themselves into thinking they are entitled to having whatever they wish without actually paying the asking price for it.

Quoting Mt99 (Reply 96):

Exactly. But see the market and position themselves as Apple against "The Man". And they do a hell of a job. Even though that they might not practice what they preach.. they still make people believe that they do.

Actually that's a very new thing and very much of a grass roots origin.
 
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moo
Posts: 5109
Joined: Sun May 13, 2007 2:27 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Tue Dec 11, 2007 8:29 pm



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 97):
Honestly, iPhone naysayers.....this constant fixation on owning an iPhone solely for its 'coolness' and 'social status' is getting extremely old. I'm convinced YOU....more so than even the iPhone 'fanboys'....are the ones perpetuating this drivel.

Agreed, there's a world of difference between being 'for' something, and being 'against' something.

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