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Joni
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IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:49 am

There seems to be contradicting information on whether the iPhone is selling well over here.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nf/20071205/tc_nf/57082

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv..._article_id=492897&in_page_id=1770

I also recall the UK operator issuing a press release to the effect that the device hadn't flopped despite reports to the contrary, but I can't find it right now.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:30 pm

Hard to say at this time without concrete numbers... Other observers have different estimates (Tech Trader Daily), but I guess the first real insight will come when either Apple or the respective carriers publicise their next quarter results.
 
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OA260
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 12:40 pm

I know alot of people are waiting . I would have bought one but its not 3G so I will wait also.
 
G5ive
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:31 pm

The iPhone is not a bad phone, I really like it a lot. The thing that makes people hate the iPhone is the company that provides the service here in the US, well at least in my own opinion and experience with it.
Do I sign here?
 
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nighthawk
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:37 pm



Quote:

iPhone sales around Europe have been disappointing, with the French only pocketing 30,000 in the first five days - though that's three times the number T-Mobile managed to shift in Germany. But that's not stopped Google releasing an optimised version of its mobile application suite specially designed for the finger-driven interface.

In the UK O2 won't say how many iPhones it's managed to sell. Our information is that fewer than 30,000 have been activated in Blighty, though apparently many more are waiting under the tree for a Christmas-day activation.

Europe Too Cynical For iPhone

I also read a few other reports which suggest it was a flop, the night it went on sale there were reported to be more staff members in O2 stores than customers. I have also seen it quoted that sales figures are only about 25% of what apple expected to sell in the UK, but I cant find the article where I read that....

The major problem with the iPhone is the price, you need to pay for the handset, AND take out an expensive contract. All this for a phone which doesnt even have 3G.
 
sv2008
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:00 pm



Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 4):

The major problem with the iPhone is the price, you need to pay for the handset, AND take out an expensive contract. All this for a phone which doesnt even have 3G.

I wouldn't usually buy any apple product, but the iphone is quite impressive. But it's not quite good enough (as you wrote, no 3G and not enough memory...) and far too expensive on Uk contracts. The iphone 2 should be much better whenever it's released, so I'd at least wait for that.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:53 pm



Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 4):
The major problem with the iPhone is the price, you need to pay for the handset, AND take out an expensive contract. All this for a phone which doesnt even have 3G.

Phone subsidies are nothing more than a shell game - mostly to the disadvantage of the customer.

It is nothing but a buy on credit, so I rather pay up front and after that only for the service than continuing to pay for a credit (including interest!) that may actually have been paid off at some point.

The iPhone clearly makes internet use a whole lot easier and thus more likely and more frequent; So a data flat rate plan for the iPhone will already be budgeted for such increased use. And under those conditions the plans don't look too bad at all to me.
 
RicciPettit
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 5:58 pm

It's too expensive in my opinion.

Especially at the rate Apple updates their range!! I bought a brand new PowerBook G4 last year and two weeks later they discontinued it and started selling the MacBook Pro's. The same kind of performance but with bloody £400 shaved off!! And with a built in camera to boot, I had to pay £100 for my external iSight.

I saw no advert for the new range of MacBook Pro's, if I did I so would have waited...
Elements of the past and the future combining to make something not quite as good as either!
 
Phoenix9
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:11 pm

iPhone is not all it is hyped up to be. For an "interesting" read...check this out:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=iphone
Life only makes sense when you look at it backwards.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:18 pm



Quoting RicciPettit (Reply 7):
Especially at the rate Apple updates their range!! I bought a brand new PowerBook G4 last year and two weeks later they discontinued it and started selling the MacBook Pro's. The same kind of performance but with bloody £400 shaved off!! And with a built in camera to boot, I had to pay £100 for my external iSight.

I saw no advert for the new range of MacBook Pro's, if I did I so would have waited...

Apple very rarely makes pre-announcements. The iPhone was one of those exceptions since the FCC registration and certification process is public and so would have spoiled any surprise.

If someone is buying shortly before one of the official Apple presentations it is always a good possibility that the respective product may be superseded by a newer model.

So one either informs oneself about the state of the product range (there are numerous Apple rumour sites dedicated primarily to that purpose - among the speculation they often provide decent information about the product cycle) or one should be prepared to live with it if an upgrade happens down the road.

The MacBook Pro was officially unveiled at the regularly scheduled MacWorld conference, so it definitely didn't just come out of the blue.

And I guess that your PowerBook didn't just turn to dust the minute the MacBook became available, so you still got what you paid for.

I can understand your chagrin to an extent, but I don't think you could blame Apple for it under the circumstances.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:21 pm



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 8):
iPhone is not all it is hyped up to be. For an "interesting" read...check this out:

Well, most testers agree that it "actually justifies the hype", which is supported by the positively stellar owner satisfaction ratings it sustains well above any other phone.

That some people may still prefer something else is no news at all. That's what competition is all about.
 
swiftski
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:51 pm



Quoting Joni (Thread starter):
IPhone A Flop In Europe? 

Working for Apple, I'm in a position to wholeheartedly disagree.
 
VonRichtofen
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:11 pm

It's probably because Europe already has very powerful phones on the market that are equal, or close to equal with the iphone's features. Unlike North America which has garbage phones that are years behind the European phones, so that puts the iphone waaay ahead of the pack.


Kris
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 8:22 pm



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 12):
It's probably because Europe already has very powerful phones on the market that are equal, or close to equal with the iphone's features.

True. As long as your comparison doesn't involve actually trying to use those features...!  cool 
 
Joni
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:44 pm



Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 12):
It's probably because Europe already has very powerful phones on the market that are equal, or close to equal with the iphone's features.

I don't think the iPhone is about technical features - looking at them makes the phone look years out of date - but the sleek looks and user interface.
 
ZRH
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 10:08 pm

Although I am an Mac fan and never had a Windows computer (and never will buy one) I don't understand Apple's selling politics with the iPhone. Here in Switzerland you normally get any other phone with any provider. We don't have the iPhone yet, but when Apple only sells it with Swisscom here then for sure I won't buy it because I have a good other provider and Swisscom is the most expensive.
 
BR076
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:19 pm

And you can't send MMS with the Iphone , what is all the hype about anyway?
ú
 
FlyKev
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:28 pm

Heres my take on it here in the UK:

I personally like the phone, but fail to see a legitimate reason to stump up the £269 for it.
The reasons I feel are:
Tarrifs
Functionality
Overall Cost

Firstly, lets look at the tarrifs.

For £35, o2 offer : 200 minutes, and 200 texts.Yet, for £35 with any other mobile, £35 gets you 600 minutes, 1000 texts.

Its the same with the other tarrifs. People don't want to pay £35 a month and get pretty much nothing. Top this, the phone is £269. Sure, it has unlimited web browsing, but people just don't seem to be interested in mobile web.

Next, lets look at functionality.
People want as much bang for their buck as possible. Now as said above, in the USA, the mobile are behind ours and the average is 1.3 mp cameras, 65k screen, 2G, basic functionality. Here, people are used to phones that have 3 - 5 mp cameras, multi-texting etc. So, when you look at a phone that wants £269 and has just a basic 2mp camera, no expandability, 2G and an mp3 player on an unreasonably priced tarriff, against a phone that is free has a 5mp camera, 3G and an mp3 player on a more reasonably priced tariff, people will usually go for functionality. People who are style conscious will obviously go for the better looking, but most people I know want power. Yes Klaus, you keep saying that these phones have "too" many functions and that you never use them. I'll agree, but a. you can never have too many functions and b. even if I don't use them, they are there if I need them.
Bottom line is the iphone needs to be cheaper, and on better tarrifs. This is one of the downs to being glued to one network, theres no tariff rivalry.

Don't flame me for my opinions here, but this is my opinion on why the iphone isnt such a big hit.

[Edited 2007-12-07 15:30:13]

[Edited 2007-12-07 15:31:00]
The white zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:35 am



Quoting FlyKev (Reply 17):
People don't want to pay £35 a month and get pretty much nothing. Top this, the phone is £269. Sure, it has unlimited web browsing, but people just don't seem to be interested in mobile web.

Which is due to one simple reason: It is so tedious to use on the other phones that people have stopped bothering and resigned to simply not having mobile web available.

The iPhone makes mobile web use so easy and effortless that people actually use it in practice - many web applications are being developed specifically for it as we speak. You really need to try it out yourself sometime.

Quoting FlyKev (Reply 17):
Yes Klaus, you keep saying that these phones have "too" many functions and that you never use them.

Wrong. I keep saying that other phones make it so tedious and difficult that for most people and for most situations it just doesn't matter how many funtionalities there were in theory if you actually bothered to fight your way through to them.

Quoting FlyKev (Reply 17):
I'll agree, but a. you can never have too many functions

Fully agreed - especially if they are implemented well.

Quoting FlyKev (Reply 17):
and b. even if I don't use them, they are there if I need them.

That's not much of a consolation if it involves endless fiddling with the device which is rarely a practical option.

Quoting FlyKev (Reply 17):
Bottom line is the iphone needs to be cheaper, and on better tarrifs.

For many people? Sure. But Apple is obviously going at the market in a top-down approach. And it appears to work very well, considering that the iPhone has pushed ahead of all other "smart phones" even in its first limited edition.
 
ShannoninAMA
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:49 am

Perfect timing for the Zune-phone to strike  Wink



Shipwreck alert. Head on over to Airspaceonline.com.
 
AverageUser
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 2:54 am



Quoting Phoenix9 (Reply 8):
iPhone is not all it is hyped up to be. For an "interesting" read...check this out:

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse....phone

Man, that was some link! I could not but laugh out aloud, which activity for me has a system-wide incidence rate of once in a millennium!

worth considering as well from him: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant
 
Joni
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:35 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):

Which is due to one simple reason: It is so tedious to use on the other phones that people have stopped bothering and resigned to simply not having mobile web available.

Ease of use is not an iPhone strength, as the touch-only UI requires more key-presses for simple functions than a phone with a keypad. This is the reason the established cellphone makers haven't rolled out this form factor in many products before, despite researching it for years.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):

The iPhone makes mobile web use so easy and effortless that people actually use it in practice - many web applications are being developed specifically for it as we speak. You really need to try it out yourself sometime.

Have you used the mobile internet on the N95? The 3.5G (HSDPA) technology lets you download even large pages at practically the same speed as if you were sitting in your office (>1 Mbit/s). Sliding the keypad out lets you input text, and you can also switch the orientation of the display. I use it several times on a typical day to check the weather, news, public transport schedules, maps etc.
 
N74JW
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:58 pm



Quoting G5ive (Reply 3):
The iPhone is not a bad phone, I really like it a lot. The thing that makes people hate the iPhone is the company that provides the service here in the US, well at least in my own opinion and experience with it.

That's right! The iPhone would be great if it weren't for AT&T (in the US).
rm -r *
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 3:45 pm



Quoting Joni (Reply 21):
Ease of use is not an iPhone strength, as the touch-only UI requires more key-presses for simple functions than a phone with a keypad. This is the reason the established cellphone makers haven't rolled out this form factor in many products before, despite researching it for years.

You've not used the iPhone in real life, have you?

There have been many failed attempts of making a touch screen interface work, so it's no wonder that further attempts have become fewer and even more lackluster in recent times.

But as any actual user of the iPhone or iPod Touch will probably attest, it can still be done well after all!

Quoting Joni (Reply 21):
Have you used the mobile internet on the N95?

I've used conventional stylus-driven mobile browsers. Have you used the iPhone?

Quoting Joni (Reply 21):
The 3.5G (HSDPA) technology lets you download even large pages at practically the same speed as if you were sitting in your office (>1 Mbit/s).

Pretty pointless if the browser is so slow and so unresponsive that it doesn't make much of a difference in real life.

Some tests have found that the iPhone with EDGE effectively offers higher speed on the web than other phones with 3G. Your mileage may vary, but the "3G" sticker alone is useless without a fast and usable browser to actually exploit it in practice, especially at its atrocious power drain with current chip sets.

Quoting Joni (Reply 21):
Sliding the keypad out lets you input text

I've checked out the iPhone on-screen keyboard and found it to be very good. I don't see any reason to lug around separate physical keypads any more which aren't much if any better in practice. Just more parts that break, accumulate dust and grime and add bulk.

If the iPhone's on-screen keyboard did in fact suck I might agree, but it doesn't - not even in portrait orientation, not even with my relatively large hands and not even in single-handed thumb-tapping mode. It won't work with gloves, but which mechanical micro-keypad does?
 
swiftski
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:18 pm



Quoting FlyKev (Reply 17):
Yes Klaus, you keep saying that these phones have "too" many functions and that you never use them. I'll agree, but a. you can never have too many function

I don't get it... You agree that phones have too many functions, but say that there can never be too many functions?
 
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Asturias
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:53 pm

There is only one fundamental problem with the iPhone, namely that it isn't 3G. Apple doesn't yet understand the phone market, but given time this thing will catch on.

It is a wonderful device, but 3G is out and has been for a long time. This is essentially out of date technology in a really pretty package.

saludos

Asturias
Tonight we fly
 
ANother
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:34 pm

Well, I decided for a number of reasons I won't be getting the iPhone;

1. I was just given an iTouch. Pretty well the iPhone without the phone.
2. The cost of of the phone is going to be steep,
3. The cost of the contract is also going to be steep - It will double the cost of the phone.
4. They don't have it yet, where I live.

I figure with my iTouch, and a new 'free' phone with my existing contract I still get best of both worlds.

Now can someone point me in the direction of getting this iTouch to connect to WiFi - I keep getting asked for passwords where it should be free and unrestricted!

Thanks!
 
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Siren
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:20 pm



Quoting RicciPettit (Reply 7):
Especially at the rate Apple updates their range!! I bought a brand new PowerBook G4 last year and two weeks later they discontinued it and started selling the MacBook Pro's.

The Powerbook G4 15 inch had gone without any updates for over a year when you purchased yours. As for the MacBook Pro, it was launched in January 2006 at MacWorld in San Francisco after the announcement of a new range of Intel machines that was made at the 2005 WWDC conference where Steve Jobs demoed an Mac Intel box for the crowd. The Intel switch was well publicized before they came to market, and Apple has not historically been quick to update their lines - the basic Powerbook G4 Aluminum lasted just over 3 years from launch - which is an extremely long product life for a personal computer. The MacBook Pro has gone without any major updates (aside from speed bumps, and an early switch to Core2 Duo and 64 bit architecture) for almost 2 years. I don't know what fast speed you speak of.
 
jrowson
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 12:55 am

I work for one of the re-sellers in the UK, so here's my views on it all.

I will say that sales haven't quite reached what we were expecting. No one's revealing any sales figures as we're not allowed too, but on the first weekend we sold a fraction of the number of iphones we were expecting to.

I really like the iphone. It's very easy to use and what it has got on it works really well. Apple have done a great job of producing a phone that is amazing to operate. What they haven't done so well is excluded a number of features that we in the UK are used to having, eg 3g to some extent although i dont think that's it's a major issue yet; but moreover, the lack of mms is just plain weird; we love to take video clips..where's that feature?; the ommision of data bluetooth is crazy and audio only bluetooth isn't something i've seen on a phone for the last 5 years.

The price is a big sticking point in the UK. Our phone market is fairly unique in that it relies heavily on subsidised handsets unlike many other countries where it's normal to have to pay for your phone. We can walk out of a phone shop with a top line Samsung, Nokia or Sony phone for free and pay only 30GBP or so over 18 months. This phone is typically at the moment a 5mp model with mp3, 30fps video, GPS, 3g/HSDPA, expandable memory, bluetooth 2.0 with a2dp...the list goes on and on.

We don't expect to pay for a phone, let alone one with a seemingly lacklustre and crappy spec.

I do believe that many more brits want the iphone but are putting off buying one as they are waiting for the price to fall or they believe the iphone will be "free" soon...i very much doubt this.

The tariffs seem poor too at first glance. Most people wont read into them to realise that it's normal O2 tariffs with a 10gbp data bundle bolted on to become the new "iphone tariff". Our current best selling tariff on o2 is 600 mins and 500sms for 35gbp...this becomes 45gbp on the iphone. Many people aren't prepared to pay the difference.

We're being told sales will increase towards christmas....hmmm, not seen too much of this yet. We're too busy selling Sony Ericsson W580i's instead...oh which coincidently has virtually the same spec as the iphone, minus the touchy feely stuff of course but is available on a pre-pay for 100 of your British pounds.
James Rowson
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:03 am



Quoting Asturias (Reply 25):
There is only one fundamental problem with the iPhone, namely that it isn't 3G. Apple doesn't yet understand the phone market, but given time this thing will catch on.

Yeah. Exactly the same way they don't understand retail, as all the "experts" once agreed.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 25):
It is a wonderful device, but 3G is out and has been for a long time. This is essentially out of date technology in a really pretty package.

3G simply sucks at this point. It hasn't left the painful early adopter phase yet. It will in time, but presently battery life in 3G operation is just not anywhere near useful. Latency is dismal. And since current 3G phones will become pretty much worthless when the newer chip sets will be coming out, it may not be that stupid to simply skip that initial painful learner phase and let others take the pain (and finance the proper 3G chip set generation).

Quoting JRowson (Reply 28):
What they haven't done so well is excluded a number of features that we in the UK are used to having, eg 3g to some extent although i dont think that's it's a major issue yet;

See above.

Quoting JRowson (Reply 28):
but moreover, the lack of mms is just plain weird; we love to take video clips..where's that feature?

MMS is price-gouging on phones which aren't properly internet-capable. Once proper email is the norm, nobody will remember MMS any more. Videos? No, at least not with the current software version of the iPhone...

Quoting JRowson (Reply 28):
the ommision of data bluetooth is crazy and audio only bluetooth isn't something i've seen on a phone for the last 5 years.

Not crazy at all. A data flat rate with modem use is the one 3G use that actually can make some sense, but at the same time it will drastically increase data usage for the carrier. My guess is that the current flat rate plans simply aren't calculated for that volume yet.

Quoting JRowson (Reply 28):
The price is a big sticking point in the UK. Our phone market is fairly unique in that it relies heavily on subsidised handsets unlike many other countries where it's normal to have to pay for your phone.

Not unique at all. It is the norm on the continent as well.

And as I said above: It's just a normal buy on credit - only that you keep paying off beyond the credit volume. A bad deal for the customer.

Quoting JRowson (Reply 28):
We can walk out of a phone shop with a top line Samsung, Nokia or Sony phone for free and pay only 30GBP or so over 18 months. This phone is typically at the moment a 5mp model with mp3, 30fps video, GPS, 3g/HSDPA, expandable memory, bluetooth 2.0 with a2dp...the list goes on and on.

And neither contains a comfortably usable browser nor usually a data flat rate. Many people still buy primarily by bullet points, but an increasing number of people realise that they don't really get what's advertised in most cases.

Quoting JRowson (Reply 28):
We don't expect to pay for a phone, let alone one with a seemingly lacklustre and crappy spec.

That depends a lot on what your priorities are. For the people buying iPhones thus far, it seems to be a pretty good match to their needs:

PC Magazine survey:

Quote:
Cell Phones

iPhone owners passionately love their devices. In its first year on the survey, the Apple iPhone scored a stunning 9.1 out of 10 from our readers, beating the ratings that every other phone, from every carrier, in nearly every category, has received in the three years we've been including cell phones. The iPhone's 9.6 scores in music and video playback might have been expected, but its 8.2 for call quality (a score significantly better than average), another 8.2 for coverage, and an 8.0 for earpiece volume show that it's not just the i our readers like. They love the phone, too.

In the case of other devices, our readers seem to have settled into slightly cranky resignation. Almost all brands on nearly every carrier rated scores between 7.0 and 7.5 overall, with differentiations coming feature by feature. Check out our online charts for full details.

[...]

AT&T

There's a huge drop in satisfaction between iPhone owners, BlackBerry owners (in second place), and everyone else. All other manufacturers were tightly bunched together.

 
Joni
Topic Author
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:48 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):

Pretty pointless if the browser is so slow and so unresponsive that it doesn't make much of a difference in real life.

You apparently haven't used the N95

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
Have you used the iPhone?

Only very briefly

Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
Some tests have found that the iPhone with EDGE effectively offers higher speed on the web than other phones with 3G.

This is assuming your network has EDGE. Also, whereas you're right that EDGE can offer bitrates comparable to single-code WCDMA systems, a multicode WCDMA or, as the N95, 3.5G phone will leave EDGE way behind. Also latencies will be worse in EDGE.

Installing 3G to the iPhone will drive the price way up, since Apple will have to pay even more royalties to Ericsson, Motorola & co for their patents.
 
Klaus
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 11:44 am



Quoting Joni (Reply 30):
You apparently haven't used the N95

Not yet. But testers (and users) looking at both the N95 and the iPhone have seen the same kind of difference as to the other conventional "smart phones".

Quoting Joni (Reply 30):
This is assuming your network has EDGE.

Which is the case for the carriers offering it.

Quoting Joni (Reply 30):
Also, whereas you're right that EDGE can offer bitrates comparable to single-code WCDMA systems, a multicode WCDMA or, as the N95, 3.5G phone will leave EDGE way behind.

Sure - in theory. But having a strong motor is pointless when you can't get the power on the road. And in computing the equivalent to road handling is usability.

Quoting Joni (Reply 30):
Also latencies will be worse in EDGE.

That will be interesting to watch - what I've been told by 3G users is that it can take several seconds until the 3G connection finally ramps up to speed, effectively throttling speed to a much lower level on anything except large monolithic downloads.

Theoretically 3G could be a great thing - but its current incarnation doesn't look all that tasty at least right now. Both on the device and on the carrier side.

Quoting Joni (Reply 30):
Installing 3G to the iPhone will drive the price way up, since Apple will have to pay even more royalties to Ericsson, Motorola & co for their patents.

I wouldn't bet on that. I would expect the price to just remain the same as usual for most Apple product upgrades, instead of a price reduction adding more functionality. Apple's margins are quite comfortable and the chip set only one of the major components in the iPhone. Looking at the cheap 3G phones available even now, the royalties probably won't make a dent.
 
N74JW
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:33 pm



Quoting ANother (Reply 26):
Now can someone point me in the direction of getting this iTouch to connect to WiFi - I keep getting asked for passwords where it should be free and unrestricted!

Is wifi free? Any wifi we have here in the states is a paid service. Aside of the normal unsecured 'Linksys', or 'netgear54g' residential networks, wifi is not free. I am not so sure I would be comfortable connecting to an unsecured wifi network.

Quoting JRowson (Reply 28):
excluded a number of features

 thumbsup  I would like to see bluetooth sync, and audio playback in the iPhone. I don't use a bluetooth headset, so my bluetooth is constantly switched off in the iPhone. My Dell Axim could print to a bluetooth printer! I would imagine the audio playback is being hindered by DRM. 802.1X wireless support would be great, as my corporate network uses 802.1X to secure their WLAN.

Quoting JRowson (Reply 28):
The price is a big sticking point in the UK.

The antics of Apple and their pricing schemes left a sour taste in the mouth of many iPhone consumers. I was able to get my rebate for being an early adopter, but it still stinks.
rm -r *
 
CaptOveur
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:13 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 1:48 pm



Quoting G5ive (Reply 3):
The thing that makes people hate the iPhone is the company that provides the service here in the US

*applauds*

I would rather have my toenails pulled out again than continue to do business with Cingular/AT&T
Things were better when it was two guys in a dorm room.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:02 pm



Quoting N74jw (Reply 32):
I would like to see bluetooth sync,

No way. Bluetooth is far too slow for any meaningful data volume. If anything, it could go through WiFi, but even that doesn't look all that practical. The battery needs to be charged occasionally anyway, so while you're in reach of your computer, why not just put it in the dock and have both at the same time? Wired sync is just a matter of seconds anyway, so I dont see much of a point to have it slower wirelessly on top of that.

Quoting N74jw (Reply 32):
I would imagine the audio playback is being hindered by DRM.

Apple supports burning of protected tracks to unprotected audio CDs. Using wireless headphones wouldn't be a stretch. I personally try to get rid of as many battery-driven devices as possible, but I wouldn't be surprised if stereo Bluetooth support came with some firmware upgrade down the road.

It would probably be nice for bluetooth-enabled car systems, but Apple might in fact delay it for exactly that reason - pushing car manufacturers for dedicated iPod/iPhone interfaces instead...

Quoting N74jw (Reply 32):
The antics of Apple and their pricing schemes left a sour taste in the mouth of many iPhone consumers. I was able to get my rebate for being an early adopter, but it still stinks.

What's the problem? Early adopters always have to pay off a larger share of the development costs than buyers later on. If I'm buying in that phase, I know the deal. Subsequent price cuts are perfectly normal. And getting a partial refund in such a case is a nice bonus, but either the product was worth the price for me or not. And so I either buy or abstain. Simple as that.
 
Joni
Topic Author
Posts: 2613
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2000 11:05 pm

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 6:50 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):

Not yet. But testers (and users) looking at both the N95 and the iPhone have seen the same kind of difference as to the other conventional "smart phones".

At least the version of the N95 I use works fluently with the net, difficult to imagine how the iPhone could compete with it. But as said, I've only handled the iPhone for a very short while. Anyway, it's just another phone.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):

That will be interesting to watch - what I've been told by 3G users is that it can take several seconds until the 3G connection finally ramps up to speed, effectively throttling speed to a much lower level on anything except large monolithic downloads.

I think the speed ramp-up scheme is configured by the operator. EDGE has a similar feature, mind you, and forming an EDGE connection to begin with takes longer than a 3G connection.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 31):
Apple's margins are quite comfortable and the chip set only one of the major components in the iPhone. Looking at the cheap 3G phones available even now, the royalties probably won't make a dent.

Apple has to pay royalties as a percentage of the sales price of the whole phone, not just the price of the chipset. The cheap 3G phones you refer to are made by the existing cellphone manufacturers who have large portfolios of 3G patents and cross-licences to the other major portfolios, thus they have to pay little net royalty. When Sony folded it's cellphone business it cited as a major reason the fact that it had to pay out around 10% of the selling price of all it's phones to the guys with the patents, which ate up all of Sony's margin. So they teamed up with Ericsson, who's one of the large patent-holders and the problem is solved.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:19 pm



Quoting N74jw (Reply 32):
Is wifi free? Any wifi we have here in the states is a paid service. Aside of the normal unsecured 'Linksys', or 'netgear54g' residential networks, wifi is not free. I am not so sure I would be comfortable connecting to an unsecured wifi network.

Free, isn't that common but there are a few opportunities about. But still - even with a known 'paid' service I don't see how to pay them - as I said I just get a enter password screen.
 
N74JW
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:31 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 7:55 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
Subsequent price cuts are perfectly normal.

Subsequent, not direct. Apple's price drop of 33% three months after launch was taken as a big 'up yours' by the early adopters. We all know prices drop eventually, but give us a break...

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
Apple supports burning of protected tracks to unprotected audio CDs.

I don't think Apple cares either way, it is the RIAA/MPAA that blocks any kind of innovation with media content. The audio takes advantage of the traditional 'analog hole'.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
why not just put it in the dock and have both at the same time?

My Mac only has two USB ports, both of which are always occupied.
rm -r *
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:11 pm



Quoting Joni (Reply 35):
Apple has to pay royalties as a percentage of the sales price of the whole phone, not just the price of the chipset. The cheap 3G phones you refer to are made by the existing cellphone manufacturers who have large portfolios of 3G patents and cross-licences to the other major portfolios, thus they have to pay little net royalty.

That would only make it even more sensible for Apple to hold back 3G as long as it doesn't provide a clear enough real-life advantage.

Apple has its own patent arsenal to bring to the fight, but most of theirs deals with the computing and user interface side. They'll probably still have to dip into their margins to some extent, but their advantage is they've got substantial margins.

Not needing to license a costly operating system should already more than pay for the 3G royalties. And their own OS is also unique to them and the main advantage they've got.

Everything else is just gravy.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 37):
Subsequent, not direct. Apple's price drop of 33% three months after launch was taken as a big 'up yours' by the early adopters.

It's been rather unusual indeed.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 37):
We all know prices drop eventually, but give us a break...

And they did, didn't they?

Quoting N74JW (Reply 37):
I don't think Apple cares either way, it is the RIAA/MPAA that blocks any kind of innovation with media content.

Indeed. Jobs has consistently pushed for no or more liberal DRM, right from the beginning of the iTunes project, later with the iPod and the iTunes (Music) Store.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 37):
My Mac only has two USB ports, both of which are always occupied.

Okay, that makes it fall under the "you can't have too many options" clause, but that doesn't necessarily make it a top priority for firmware upgrades...  cool 
 
aircatalonia
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:50 pm

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:40 pm

A friend of mine brought one from one of the countries where it is already selling and likes it very much. He did not have to pay for it, however. I think his father bought it for him. Otherwise I don't think he would (and neither would I) be willing to spend +1000€ on it.

[Edited 2007-12-09 13:50:36]
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:48 pm



Quoting AirCatalonia (Reply 39):
A friend of mine brought one from one of the countries where it is already selling and likes it very much. He did not have to pay for it, however. I think his father bought it for him. Otherwise I don't think he wouldn't (and neither would I) be willing to spend +1000€ on it.

The €999,- price was only for the unlocked version while the Vodafone/T-Mobile trial lasted. The regular price in Germany is €399 (including 19% VAT) with a plan which is competitive to other comparable offerings here.
 
aircatalonia
Posts: 643
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:50 pm

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:55 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
The regular price in Germany is €399 (including 19% VAT)

Ok, that's a different thing. Still I'm one of those who never pays more than €50 for a new phone. I always try to get them for free with the points I get from using my current one and I don't mind if I don't have the very last device on the market...
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:38 pm



Quoting AirCatalonia (Reply 41):
Ok, that's a different thing. Still I'm one of those who never pays more than €50 for a new phone. I always try to get them for free with the points I get from using my current one and I don't mind if I don't have the very last device on the market...

That's a perfectly valid position.
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:01 am

So we have what, a 30+ posters coming from the most probable clientele, and nobody maintains he or she is using the famed device for that daily work for himself or herself.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:33 am



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 43):
So we have what, a 30+ posters coming from the most probable clientele, and nobody maintains he or she is using the famed device for that daily work for himself or herself.

We have several iPhone users around here. If you have specific questions, I'm sure you'll get your answers.
 
N74JW
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:31 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:05 am



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 43):
So we have what, a 30+ posters coming from the most probable clientele, and nobody maintains he or she is using the famed device for that daily work for himself or herself.

I have an iPhone 4GB, and have had it since the beginning of July. I use it everyday for web, e-mail, and calling. I do not use the iPod feature all that much. It's good for weather reporting. Google Maps has saved my butt a couple of times. Compared to my last phone, it is generations ahead in every aspect. Because of the iPhone, I really do not have to carry a laptop to work,,,
rm -r *
 
AverageUser
Posts: 1824
Joined: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:21 pm

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:20 am



Quoting N74jw (Reply 45):
I use it everyday for web, e-mail, and calling.

Good. My impression was (see above, #20) that you can't SMS with the device though?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
We have several iPhone users around here. If you have specific questions, I'm sure you'll get your answers.

We can be pretty certain over that. But the users did not seem to feel an urge to chime in, but we now have one positively positive person listed.

How's you own contract with your iPhone service provider, by the way? Still saving up for it?
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:47 am



Quoting AverageUser (Reply 46):
How's you own contract with your iPhone service provider, by the way? Still saving up for it?

My, aren't you hilarious.  Yeah sure

I don't have much of an interest in a mobile phone at this point and never had. And the next really attractive step up in the iPod development from my 4GB nano would only be a 32GB flash model. So my personal breal-even point has simply not been reached, even though it's an impressive technical achievement. Just not a good enough match for my personal needs right now.

Debunking nonsense still remains a hobby of mine.
 
2H4
Posts: 7960
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 11:11 pm

RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:13 am



Quoting Joni (Reply 21):
Ease of use is not an iPhone strength

Yes it is.

Quoting Joni (Reply 30):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 23):
Have you used the iPhone?

Only very briefly

The first time I messed around with an iPhone (in a store), I spend about 20 minutes exploring the various features, and hated the thing. I couldn't stand the keyboard, web navigation seemed clumsy, and the layout didn't seem intuitive.

Now that I've owned one for a few months, I can honestly say I wouldn't trade it for any other phone on the market. To make an accurate judgment on the design and usability of the device, you simply have to own/use one for at least a few weeks. I'm convinced that anyone who criticizes it without having done so is unqualified to accurately assess its strengths and weaknesses.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 43):
So we have what, a 30+ posters coming from the most probable clientele, and nobody maintains he or she is using the famed device for that daily work for himself or herself.

I am, and it works beautifully.

Quoting AverageUser (Reply 46):
But the users did not seem to feel an urge to chime in

I suppose I can only speak for myself, but addressing and correcting the many uneducated and inaccurate "facts" presented by non-owners gets really old, really quickly. Chiming in becomes tiresome.  Wink

2H4

P.S. - I have yet to read a single inaccurate or exaggerated iPhone-related statement by Klaus. I think some people might label him a "fanboy", but I have yet to see any one of those individuals actually prove his statements wrong.
Intentionally Left Blank
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 13367
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RE: IPhone A Flop In Europe?

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:39 am

The IPHONE is such a failure that research anaysts are now bumping up projected sales of the IPOD from 10 million to 12.5 million next year.

Apple Insider RBC analyst

Also part of the report was that the N95 is currently getting outsold by the Iphone in Europe.

There is a site that tracks Web usage, and guess what. The IPhone now beats out ALL other mobile phone platforms in web usage.

Iphone at .09% of all page viewa
Doesn't sound like much , but it beats out, Windows CE and Win 95. This means the web usage on the Iphone is actually being functionally used, as opposed to most other phones.


Does the Iphone do things the same as other Cell Phones or have more features than phones in it's class? No.
Does it do the few things it has well, and is it causing a change in how people use their Cell Phones?
I think the answer to that is a resounding yes.

Apple has developed a phone and interface that is unparalled. My Cell does MP3's but I never use it due to the horrible interface on my cell phone. apple has an interface that can easily be tripped into web and ipod mode.
I am lucky to be able to play with one, as there are two apple stores near me. Once you play with one for awhile, the interface makes other cells seem crappy.

Of course if you don't want anything other than a phone, you won't want an iphone.

However if you want a usable Ipod, cellphone, visual voicemail, web browser, and camera, them the IPod is a definate buy.

But no , I don;t think the Iphone is a failure in Europe, I think it is just taking a bit longer to catch on, as UK and Germany are a bit more reserved in theri approach to the hype and cost of the Iphone.


When Apple releases the next version of the Iphone, I will bet on it having , 3G, 5MB video camera, and 16-32 GB of ram.
Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did..So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover.--Mark Twain

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