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fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Sun Dec 09, 2007 9:53 pm



Quoting QFA380 (Reply 51):
He was definitely putting his sons life at great risk but what is life without risk?

Exactly. We take risks walking out the door and the risk in that situation was minimal. I just disagree with your assertion that his actions with his son is somehow along the same lines of risk as this group attacking boats.

I do think the Japanese are breaking international law but in the end spock will save them.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:03 pm

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap...y/0,22049,22896853-5001021,00.html

well if you think the Japanese are breaking international law then you won't mind signing this?
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Sun Dec 09, 2007 10:27 pm



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 53):
well if you think the Japanese are breaking international law then you won't mind signing this?

Yeah, why not.

Actually here is the link to the petition.

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap...y/0,22049,22836856-5014727,00.html

I don't think the Japanese really care about a silly petition but I have signed it.

I wouldn't mind speaking to Isabel Lucas about it though!  Wink
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:55 am

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
As far as "acts of piracy" go, I think a lot of people would call it citizen's arrest.

Ramming a ship at sea is a citizens arrest? Really?

Tell me where I go wrong... A citizens arrest may be conducted to stop a crime in progress and to detain suspects until they can be immediately turned over to authorities. A citizen may only use force in the arrest to the extent necessary to prevent suspects from escaping capture.

Now it could just be me, but knowing the name, nationality, position, and operation of a ship (it being a fat slow ship too) wouldn't contacting the authorities and monitoring the ship be the proper legal action... not ramming it?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 27):
Except that Sea Shepherd are acting to enforce laws that are being violated and are not being properly enforced.

I expect you to never say a bad word about vigilante justice ever again.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 36):
Is Japan even a signatory to that moratorium?

Only to commercial whaling, which Japan is not conducting.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
Japan is a member of the IWC, a group formed by treaty. As such, they are bound to the acts of the IWC, including the ban on whaling. Violation of this policy amounts to piracy

Uh huh... sure...

Quoting N1120A (Reply 40):
The United Nations World Charter for Nature states in Section 21:

He said Maritime Law, not useless UN garbage.

What's the UN going to do, send a strongly worded letter to Japan?

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 46):
Think of it as taking out the tyres on the getaway car.

You might find it hard to justify why you felt it necessary to shoot out the tires of a car that you could have just walked next to.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 48):
Do you have a problem with Tanzanian park rangers shooting poachers to prevent the slaughter of elephants or rhino being killed to provide useless "medicine" to impotent Chinese men

Notice one little difference?

Tanzanian Park Rangers are actual legal authorities. The Sea Shepard is not.

[

[Edited 2007-12-09 20:56:08]
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Pyrex
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:59 am



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 54):
Only to commercial whaling, which Japan is not conducting.

Come on, please, you're more intelligent than that. Are you honestly so naive?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:12 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 55):
Are you honestly so naive?

If the IWC thinks Japan is whaling for commercial purposes instead of scientific, they could always remove thier clause which mandates Japan sell the byproducts of scientific whaling, thus cutting off the whale meat supply to the commercial market. Funny how everyone seems to forget that Japan is required to sell that meat by IWC rules regarding scientific whaling.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Maverick623
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:21 am



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 48):
We seem to be in fundamental disagreement here as to who the bad guys are in this scenario

Actually, I'd wager we're disagreeing on who the good guys are. Sea Shepherd has the right idea, but are going about it in the completely wrong way, and worse, trying to gloss it over.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 48):
Do you have a problem with Tanzanian park rangers shooting poachers to prevent the slaughter of elephants or rhino being killed to provide useless "medicine" to impotent Chinese men ?

Actually, I do. Deadly force should only be used as a last resort. I have no qualms with the park rangers defending themselves, or perhaps shooting if a poacher ignores a command to cease fire and drop any weapon they might have. But to simply execute someone when due process should be considered is just plain wrong.
"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
 
N1120A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:10 am



Quoting Freckles (Reply 44):

I am talking about humans here, not whales, despite the immorality associated.

Humans aren't an endangered species. Fin Whales are. Humpbacks are threatened. Minkes will be if this continues.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 46):

Think of it as taking out the tyres on the getaway car.

That is a pretty good analogy

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 54):

Tell me where I go wrong... A citizens arrest may be conducted to stop a crime in progress and to detain suspects until they can be immediately turned over to authorities. A citizen may only use force in the arrest to the extent necessary to prevent suspects from escaping capture.

Actually, that sounds about what Sea Shepherd are doing.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 54):

Now it could just be me, but knowing the name, nationality, position, and operation of a ship (it being a fat slow ship too) wouldn't contacting the authorities and monitoring the ship be the proper legal action... not ramming it?

That is exactly what they do. They ram when the boats are out committing illegal acts and where simply monitoring will result in more illegal acts being committed.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 54):

I expect you to never say a bad word about vigilante justice ever again.

There is a big difference between the chartered enforcement of openly flouted laws and pure street vigilantism.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 54):

Only to commercial whaling, which Japan is not conducting.

That statement insults not only your audience's intelligence, but your own.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 54):

Uh huh... sure...

It does.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 54):

He said Maritime Law, not useless UN garbage.

That "useless UN garbage" is duly promulgated international law.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 54):


Tanzanian Park Rangers are actual legal authorities. The Sea Shepard is not.

The Charter gives individuals and NGOs, which Sea Shepherd is, the authority to safeguard nature on the high seas

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 57):
But to simply execute someone when due process should be considered is just plain wrong.

No one is executing anyone here.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:33 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
Humans aren't an endangered species. Fin Whales are. Humpbacks are threatened. Minkes will be if this continues.

 checkmark   checkmark   checkmark 
The true eco-terrorists are the ones that knowingly and intentionally poison our planet earth with pollution that could be prevented by appropriate technology
The true eco-terrorists are the ones that kill ALL endangered species -regardless of type of plant or animal..
The true eco-terrorists are the ones that spread false information about the actual situation of the environment for economical reasons
I am full support for radical ecological movements ,since those who poison the air I breath and the water we drink do it usually with full intention to draw financial benefit to the despise of health to living creatures.
Contrary to most here ,I do not think that humans are the crown-jewel of evolution...
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
jafa39
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:49 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 54):

Tell me where I go wrong... A citizens arrest may be conducted to stop a crime in progress and to detain suspects until they can be immediately turned over to authorities. A citizen may only use force in the arrest to the extent necessary to prevent suspects from escaping capture.

Actually, that sounds about what Sea Shepherd are doing.

Ramming another vessel doesn't mean that the vessel doing the ramming won't sink....these guys are putting their lives in the same danger as the whalers lives.

Hey! I respect that, I respect that more than some dude at 50,000ft firing a guided missile....its like the cops doing a P.I.T. manouver....takes balls and guts and there are no guarrantees.

Japan needs a spanking over this and monitoring just means somebody will count the whales that die...and that ain't no deterrent.....
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
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mariner
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:47 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 52):
well if you think the Japanese are breaking international law then you won't mind signing this?

Thanks for the link. I signed the petition and I'm sending it on to all I know.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 38):
In that case, all those arguments about people carrying and using guns to solve a threatening situation don't have a leg to stand on.

Great response.  thumbsup 

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
freckles
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:59 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
Humans aren't an endangered species. Fin Whales are. Humpbacks are threatened. Minkes will be if this continues.

That is far from the original point.

*Rolls Eyes*
 
N1120A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:06 am



Quoting Freckles (Reply 62):

That is far from the original point.

Not particularly.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
freckles
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:15 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 63):

Well, yes actually. I was talking about the hurt to the families of animal breeders.

They were breeding guinea pigs for medicine testing. No testing, no medicine. Whats your moral stance on that?
 
N1120A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:25 pm



Quoting Freckles (Reply 64):

They were breeding guinea pigs for medicine testing. No testing, no medicine. Whats your moral stance on that?

My moral stance on animal testing is mixed. Breeding animals for testing cosmetics is an absolutely ridiculous, selfish, morally bankrupt thing to do. Breeding animals for real, breakthrough medical testing is a mixed bag. I think it is ok if it is absolutely necessary and there are real, significant risks in testing on humans already infected with whatever they are trying to treat. Further, how close in nature are those animals to humans in their responses to the medicines. If they aren't, there is no reason to put them through that.

Then again, animal testing has nothing to do with whale poaching other than the Japanese lying about what they are doing.

Quoting Freckles (Reply 64):


Well, yes actually. I was talking about the hurt to the families of animal breeders.

In your original post, you grouped Sea Shepherd, a group that protects whales that are being hunted for no other purpose but to satisfy the tastes of the Japanese in complete defiance of the law, with people who dug up a woman's grave, which I think no one here will begrudge you was a horrible thing to do.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:12 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 54):
Only to commercial whaling, which Japan is not conducting.

so how do you explain whale meat ending up in Japanese curry?

Quoting Freckles (Reply 62):
That is far from the original point.

well what in fucks name is the point? if your so concerned then put your name to the petition...last time I looked I'd never read a story about anyone from SS digging up someones grave to make a point..you associated the two with your rambling rubbish in your first post about this.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:22 pm

Groups like the one endorsed by Terry Irwin are a form of terror group. They are a private organization, not an official governmental military or police authority, interfering with the actions of a ship on the high seas. That is piracy and thus illegal from the view of the home country domicile of the ship involved (Japan), even if involves an action to prevent an action that is generally regraded as illegal. Remember a number of years ago where a Greenpeace ship involved in interfering with French nuke testing in the Pacific had a terror attack on it by the French government, killing a crewmember in the harbor of Wellington, New Zealand. In that case, the French government was more wrong in their action than Greenpeace and probably led to this splinter group.
 
baroque
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:01 pm



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 67):
In that case, the French government was more wrong in their action than Greenpeace and probably led to this splinter group.

Also stupid. They (GoF) forgot the cardinal rule, never commit a murder in a village - in that case the village called NZ!!  Wow!
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 3:24 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
Humans aren't an endangered species. Fin Whales are. Humpbacks are threatened. Minkes will be if this continues.

JHCOAPS. You serioulsy just placed the lives of animals above humans. That's F'n sick.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
Actually, that sounds about what Sea Shepherd are doing.

Hahahaha. No. Ramming a ship at sea is not remotely using only the level of force necessary to prevent a criminal from escaping, nor has sea shepard made any attempt what so ever to have the Japanese ships seized by any legal authority.

This is sad coming form a lawyer.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
That is exactly what they do. They ram when the boats are out committing illegal acts and where simply monitoring will result in more illegal acts being committed.

BS.

Ramming a ship is never the justified level of force for what would be considered theft.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
There is a big difference between the chartered enforcement of openly flouted laws and pure street vigilantism.

Wait... "chartered enforcement"? Did you just claim sea shepard is actually a legal authority? Oh good god.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
That "useless UN garbage" is duly promulgated international law.

It does not give anybody the authority to act as the law. If you think the UN gives just anybody the authority to go galavanting around on the high seas ramming ships engaged in purposed they don't like, there's a five inch deck gun in your future. Which is exactly the future Sea Shepard has for them. Soon the Japanese government is going to get sick of them and send a Japanese Coast Gaurd ship along. Google up video of the Japanese Coast Gaurd intercepting a North Korea ship to see how that works out.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 58):
The Charter gives individuals and NGOs, which Sea Shepherd is, the authority to safeguard nature on the high seas

BS.

You try using that defense when you are brought up on piracy charges and see how long it lasts. "the UN made me a global cop" defense is so full of crap is ludicrous.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 66):
so how do you explain whale meat ending up in Japanese curry?

Because the IWC requires them to sell the byproducts of scientific harvesting.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
MD-90
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:35 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 65):

In your original post, you grouped Sea Shepherd, a group that protects whales that are being hunted for no other purpose but to satisfy the tastes of the Japanese in complete defiance of the law, with people who dug up a woman's grave, which I think no one here will begrudge you was a horrible thing to do.

Sinking other people's ships is also a horrible thing to do, even if they're pirates who illegally hunt whales. Even more distasteful is that Sea Shepherd brags about it on their website.
 
N1120A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:37 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 69):

JHCOAPS. You serioulsy just placed the lives of animals above humans. That's F'n sick.

Whales don't have a military defense against the Japanese.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 69):


Ramming a ship is never the justified level of force for what would be considered theft.

Theft? Even if considered so, it would add up to several hundred counts.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 69):
Wait... "chartered enforcement"? Did you just claim sea shepard is actually a legal authority?

The Charter calls allows for Individuals and NGOs to carry forth its call.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 69):

It does not give anybody the authority to act as the law.

It certainly reads that way and the UN hasn't told Sea Shepherd to stuff it.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 69):
Soon the Japanese government is going to get sick of them and send a Japanese Coast Gaurd ship along

And that is likely exactly what Sea Shepherd wants

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 69):

You try using that defense when you are brought up on piracy charges and see how long it lasts. "the UN made me a global cop" defense is so full of crap is ludicrous.

And have they been brought up on piracy charges?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 69):

Because the IWC requires them to sell the byproducts of scientific harvesting.

You mean poaching, right?
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:00 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
Theft? Even if considered so, it would add up to several hundred counts.

Which still doesn't give random citizens the right to use deadly force to stop it. Which is irrelevant, since Japan isn't even committing a single act of theft.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
The Charter calls allows for Individuals and NGOs to carry forth its call.

Just keep saying that. If you really think the UN has deputized any random person to be global eco-cops with full authority to use any level of force to arrest people, you are truly a lost cause.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
It certainly reads that way and the UN hasn't told Sea Shepherd to stuff it.

Oh yes, because the UN hasn't sent sea shepherd a nasty letter they must be global eco-cops... yeah, right.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
And that is likely exactly what Sea Shepherd wants

Sea Shepard wants to get dead?

You know, there are easier ways to accomplish that.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 70):
You mean poaching, right?

It's really hard for you to admit that Japan is following the laws as set forth by the IWC isn't it? Of course it is. Because once you admit that Japan is infact following the laws, which they are, then you have to admit that Sea shepherd is just a group of thugs on a boat galavanting around the ocean committing acts of terrorism... and you support terrorism.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:06 pm

[

Quoting MD-90 (Reply 69):
Sinking other people's ships is also a horrible thing to do, even if they're pirates who illegally hunt whales.

Why ? Is it more horrible than hunting whales to extinction ? What about the Somali pirates shot to crap last year by a US Navy ship ? Was that horrible ? Getting your boat sunk out from under you is just an occupational hazard of piracy or poaching. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time swim.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:07 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 72):
Getting your boat sunk out from under you is just an occupational hazard of piracy or poaching.

Sea Shepherd should pay attention to you. That will be their fate one day.

To bad the IWC (remember the actual authority here) doesn't think what Japan is doing is against the law. Just because you call it poaching, doesn't make it so.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:26 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 73):
To bad the IWC (remember the actual authority here) doesn't think what Japan is doing is against the law. Just because you call it poaching, doesn't make it so.

It comes down I believe to the definition of "scientific research" - in the case of Japanese whalers, the "research" they are doing is to investigate how much they can charge for whalemeat at the Tokyo Fish market. That is the apparent extent of the science involved. Possibly they also researching how quickly they can kill all them all, who knows.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:28 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 74):
It comes down I believe to the definition of "scientific research" - in the case of Japanese whalers, the "research" they are doing is to investigate how much they can charge for whalemeat at the Tokyo Fish market. That is the apparent extent of the science involved.



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 55):
If the IWC thinks Japan is whaling for commercial purposes instead of scientific, they could always remove thier clause which mandates Japan sell the byproducts of scientific whaling, thus cutting off the whale meat supply to the commercial market.

Talk to the IWC about it, they are after all the authority here and the reason why Japan is allowed to sell whale meat.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:36 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 75):
Talk to the IWC about it, they are after all the authority here and the reason why Japan is allowed to sell whale meat.

Japan has found ways to circumvent serious sanction by the IWC by the simple expedient of buying off smaller maritime nations with aid. Each country has a vote, but if you pile Japan and every island nation in the Caribbean on one side, that's a lot of votes. Caribbean countries don't care, they don't have whale breeding grounds or migration routes nearby, their tourism is not dependent on whales, they get a nice new tuna-packing factory and a bunch of jobs, ka-ching ! Cost to Japan = a drop in the bucket.

It's about time the major maritime nations decided once and for all whether they give a stuff about the environment and the protection of biodiversity or not. If they do, they must start to take active measure to protect endangered species in international waters, just as they protect natural resources in their territorial waters. Whale meat is not a staple in the Japanese diet, it is not a question of survival (as it is in for example Greenland or Alaska, where there are quotas on how many whales can be slaughtered by the local populations). If the Japanese want to hunt whales, let them do it in their own territorial waters, and see how many they catch - good luck with that !
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 5:51 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 76):
Japan...

That's a very long way of saying that Japan is in fact following the rules of the IWC. Which negates any claims that Japan is acting illegaly.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Pyrex
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:10 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 68):
there's a five inch deck gun in your future. Which is exactly the future Sea Shepard has for them. Soon the Japanese government is going to get sick of them and send a Japanese Coast Gaurd ship along.

And I hope they do. With any luck that will escalate to Sea Sheperd buying some russian or chinese torpedos on the black market, and I will gladly pony up some cash to witness that.

BTW, I wonder how exactly that falls into the charter of the "Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Navy" and refuelling NATO vessels off the waters of Pakistan does not.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 68):
Because the IWC requires them to sell the byproducts of scientific harvesting.

And you know why that is, by any chance? To provide visibility on exactly how many whales are killed for "scientific reasons" - forcing them to sell them on the open market instead of the black market where they would inevitably end otherwise at least provides an indication on exactly how much the Japanese think the oceans belong to them (not just with whale, mind you - tuna, crab, etc., the guys have no problem in exterminating anything that swims).
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:16 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 78):
BTW, I wonder how exactly that falls into the charter of the "Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Navy" and refuelling NATO vessels off the waters of Pakistan does not.

The JMSDF and the Japanese Coast Guard are not the same force. Just as the US Navy and US Coast Guard are not the same thing.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
N1120A
Posts: 26660
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:12 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 76):

Japan has found ways to circumvent serious sanction by the IWC by the simple expedient of buying off smaller maritime nations with aid. Each country has a vote, but if you pile Japan and every island nation in the Caribbean on one side, that's a lot of votes. Caribbean countries don't care, they don't have whale breeding grounds or migration routes nearby, their tourism is not dependent on whales, they get a nice new tuna-packing factory and a bunch of jobs, ka-ching ! Cost to Japan = a drop in the bucket.

Then again, there are not enough countries that are willing to be bought to make up the 75% needed to revoke the ban. Further, the United States has be adamant about whaling policy, we just haven't yet stepped up to the plate in informing whaling ships that they are not welcome.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 77):

That's a very long way of saying that Japan is in fact following the rules of the IWC. Which negates any claims that Japan is acting illegaly.

Bribery isn't legal.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:24 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 80):
Bribery isn't legal.

So your stance is now that it's okay to ram ships on the high sea and commit acts of terrorism while masquerading as UN sanctioned global Eco-Police, because you think some official somewhere bribed someone else? That's peachy keen.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
freckles
Posts: 268
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:28 pm



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 65):
well what in fucks name is the point? if your so concerned then put your name to the petition...last time I looked I'd never read a story about anyone from SS digging up someones grave to make a point..you associated the two with your rambling rubbish in your first post about this.

If you had bothered to even read the posts, you would understand I was talking about these extremists as a whole, not specifics.

Please learn to read before coming out with harsh language and your own rambling garbage.

Morgan
 
SBBRTech
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:01 pm

Sea Shepard should stop this ramming insanity and stick to building up whale-shaped automated submarines filled with crap, so when the japanese harpoons hit them they would get the shower of their lives. Now that's what I call eco-terrorism.

And since the japanese love so much the freaking whales, why don't they go for captivity breeding or something like that? I'm sure their fishing scientists would succeed. Money ain't the problem, we know that.

 Angry
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
MD-90
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:33 am



Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 66):
Remember a number of years ago where a Greenpeace ship involved in interfering with French nuke testing in the Pacific had a terror attack on it by the French government, killing a crewmember in the harbor of Wellington, New Zealand. In that case, the French government was more wrong in their action than Greenpeace and probably led to this splinter group.

Funny, what France did is EXACTLY what Sea Shepherd does. French special operatives bombed and sank the Greenpeace ship in the harbor, just like Sea Shepherd has done numerous times. Why condemn one and not the other?

I love whales and I don't want them to be exterminated but I despise the Sea Shepherd fascists. One day they're going to attack or try to sabotage the wrong ship and I will shed no tears for Paul Watson or his crew when they get what's coming to them.


Speaking of paying off countries, how did Sea Shepherd arrange to become allied with Ecuador?
http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Movements/Sea_Shepherd/se-sh-re.htm

The Sea Shepherd Conservation Society is now a partner with the National Police Force of Ecuador. Never before has an NGO been appointed to such a position.

What does this mean?

It means that the Ecuadorian Navy will no longer be able to block our patrols or harass us. We are now an independent authority to the Ecuadorian Navy answering only to the Director General of the National Police. We can patrol where and when we wish to do so and without having a Navy representative onboard.

It means that we can solicit materials and financial support in the name of the Ecuadorian government and the Ecuadorian National Police and we can use their logos to promote our activities in the Galapagos.

It means we can do patrols, set up surveillance positions and we can make arrests. It means we are officially an environmental law enforcement agency.


Quoting MDorBust (Reply 81):
So your stance is now that it's okay to ram ships on the high sea and commit acts of terrorism while masquerading as UN sanctioned global Eco-Police, because you think some official somewhere bribed someone else? That's peachy keen.

Even funnier is this little gem:

After the sinking of the Icelandic whaling vessels in 1986, Sea Shepherd lost its status as observer at the IWC. The organisation claims that it is merely enforcing IWC rules. In February 1994, IWC Secretary, Ray Gambell, declared to NTB (the Norwegian Telegram Agency) that the IWC and all its member states ardently condemn Sea Shepherd’s acts of terrorism.
 
N1120A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:51 am



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 81):

So your stance is now that it's okay to ram ships on the high sea and commit acts of terrorism while masquerading as UN sanctioned global Eco-Police, because you think some official somewhere bribed someone else?

It isn't an act of terrorism if it is lawful, and by the way the Charter is written, there is a strong case that what SS does is lawful.

Quoting Freckles (Reply 82):
you would understand I was talking about these extremists as a whole, not specifics.

You lumped them in together, which opened the comment to criticism
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 12:58 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 85):
It isn't an act of terrorism if it is lawful,

No, it's not lawful.

Not even remotely.

Ramming ships on the high seas is not a lawful act.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 85):
...and by the way the Charter is written, there is a strong case that what SS does is lawful.

 redflag 

They will end up dead one day at the guns of a naval ship of coast guard boat. There is nothing lawful about what they do.

If it was so lawful, how come they never contact authorities to make an arrest? It's simple. No one will come because the Japanese aren't breaking the law. You even all but admitted that several posts back when the best you could come up with is a claim of bribery.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:03 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 86):
They will end up dead one day at the guns of a naval ship of coast guard boat.

fuck off the the melodramatics...the Japanese have been hunting whales down here for many years now and not once has a NAVAL force ever stopped them or at the very least tried intercepting them, let alone approached the SS..Like I said, send them off your coast and see how quick your attitude changes.

Quote:
If it was so lawful, how come they never contact authorities to make an arrest?

if its so unlawful then why aren't they being intercepted by the Australian & NZ navy?

Quoting Freckles (Reply 82):
Please learn to read before coming out with harsh language and your own rambling garbage.

read your post 33, you said it not me! but just so you don't have to scroll up the page I'll do it for you.

Quoting Freckles (Reply 33):
I've heard of these lunatics, utterly ridiculous.

Along the line of the mentalist PETA clan we have over here in the UK, digging up the graves of a guinea pig farmers dead mother to prove a point. (he was breeding them for medicine testing).

Horrible people

Morgan

you lobbed them altogether..deal with the criticism that is levelled at you or articulate yourself a little better next time...

[Edited 2007-12-10 17:04:45]
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:09 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 87):
fuck off the the melodramatics...

Believe me or not, that's your choice. If Sea Shepard causes large loss of life I gaurantee you there will be naval gunfire when they are next spotted.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 87):
if its so unlawful then why aren't they being intercepted by the Australian & NZ navy?

Judging by the postings of the Aussie members so far in this thread, Australia has turned a blind eye towards the Sea Shephards activities.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
N1120A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:17 am



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 88):

Believe me or not, that's your choice. If Sea Shepard causes large loss of life I gaurantee you there will be naval gunfire when they are next spotted.

I think Sea Shepherd wants it the other way around, to be attacked by a Japanese naval vessel. That will cause the international incident they want.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 88):

Judging by the postings of the Aussie members so far in this thread, Australia has turned a blind eye towards the Sea Shephards activities.

Actually, it looks like the new government is going to take a cue from Sea Shephard and attack Japanese whaling ships.
Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
 
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Aaron747
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:30 am



Quoting Us330 (Reply 16):
The only "research" the Japanese are doing is determining which whale is tastier to eat.

There was actually a meat-tasting variety show a few weeks ago on Fuji TV that featured celebrities sampling whale meat. They had a disclaimer at the beginning that all the meat used was donated from research whales. Somewhat ironic.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 37):
Japan is a member of the IWC and is bound by treaty to honor the duly passed moratorium. They have consistently acted in a way completely contradictory to both the letter and the spirit of the ban.

Japan is certainly not acting in good faith, but it's very difficult to say they are doing anything illegal since they have been clever about manipulating existing IWC stipulations to their benefit.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 55):
Funny how everyone seems to forget that Japan is required to sell that meat by IWC rules regarding scientific whaling.

Exactly, gotcha. That point is consistently cited by industry representatives when Japan Greenpeace attacks them on TV.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 76):
Whale meat is not a staple in the Japanese diet, it is not a question of survival

Delicacies of many types enjoy nearly sacrosanct status in this market. In Japan, you don't mess with food, period. This is a country where people vie for $50,000 watermelons and persimmons every season. However, the recent flap over the future prospects of the tuna catch in Japanese territorial waters has alarmed many and awareness of overfishing is growing. It will take some time for concerns over whaling to follow. Go around any major city and you will find exclusive restaurants featuring high-priced whale meat. When the luxury appeal ends, so will the market.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5197
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:37 am



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 88):
Judging by the postings of the Aussie members so far in this thread, Australia has turned a blind eye towards the Sea Shephards activities.

and you wonder why? like I said let the Japanese do it off your coast and I'll wager my house that you'd be up in arms and supporting any means necessary in order for the whaling to stop. We actually give a shit about our environment and natural resources down here...that may well be the reason why our nation turns a blind eye to the SS.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 88):
If Sea Shepard causes large loss of life I gaurantee you there will be naval gunfire when they are next spotted.

lol...now your really talking bullshit! when was the last time the USN patrolled off the Southern Coast of Australia? You can bet your ass that NZ navy won't do it and you can bet it again that the RAN won't do it either. Your more likely to find that our navy is setting its sights firmly on the whaling fleet in the coming season.
 
jafa39
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 1:43 am



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 84):
One day they're going to attack or try to sabotage the wrong ship

They don't just go around ramming ships at random, they try to interfere with the whaling activities first and they are totally sure tha it is a whalig ship they are dealing with.....look on google images, you'd never mistake a whaling ship for a cruise liner.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 86):
No one will come because the Japanese aren't breaking the law

No...no-one will come because of "Import Blackmail", the west has become dependant on Japan for good quality elctronics, cars, motorcylces, oil tankers, outsourced manufactuirng etc and to run their whaling ships out of town would cause massive trade isues.

A prominent Japanese MP recently described whales as "The Cockroaches of the Sea"....these dudes have deep pockets, a culture that does not allow "loss of face" and a grip on trade around the world that makes the US look like a 3rd world Banana Republic.....you need people like SS to have the balls to stand up to these guys.

And any arguement that "Innocent Civillians will die" is just garbage, whaling takes place in isolated areas and the attacks are specific.
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
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mariner
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 2:06 am



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 88):
Judging by the postings of the Aussie members so far in this thread, Australia has turned a blind eye towards the Sea Shephards activities.

As an Australian living in New Zealand, I don't turn a blind eye - I watch with great interest. I don't want any species of whale to go the way of the bluefin tuna.

I don't necessarily approve of all the actions taken by Sea Shepherd. But I find them impossible to condemn.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MD-90
Posts: 7836
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:38 am



Quoting N1120A (Reply 85):
It isn't an act of terrorism if it is lawful, and by the way the Charter is written, there is a strong case that what SS does is lawful.

You're an attorney, correct? Then please explain to me how Sea Shepherd's criminal destruction of private property is lawful.

Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 92):
They don't just go around ramming ships at random, they try to interfere with the whaling activities first and they are totally sure tha it is a whalig ship they are dealing with.....look on google images, you'd never mistake a whaling ship for a cruise liner.

One day they are likely to annoy the wrong whaling ship captain and he will respond with violence.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 93):
I don't necessarily approve of all the actions taken by Sea Shepherd. But I find them impossible to condemn.

So if an organization is formed that thinks that driving cars is evil and that people must be stopped from driving cars to save the planet from global warming, and the members of this organization go around slashing tires on people's cars, how would you feel if your tires were slashed and you had to buy new ones, only to have the new ones slashed again a week later?

Would you find it impossible to condemn that organization? There is no moral difference between the actions of the hypothetical organization in my example and Sea Shepherd sinking and ramming ships.
 
L-188
Topic Author
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:51 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 91):
You can bet your ass that NZ navy won't do it and you can bet it again that the RAN won't do it either.

No, I doubt those two will get involved, but if Japanese citizens do end up killed in one of these attacks, I wouldn't put it past the IJN to deploy escorts. That wouldn't be unprecedented, The IJN does conduct overseas escort duty, usually for nuke shipments but they do do them.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 66):
Remember a number of years ago where a Greenpeace ship involved in interfering with French nuke testing in the Pacific had a terror attack on it by the French government, killing a crewmember in the harbor of Wellington, New Zealand.

1. The ship was spying on French activites, and you are allowed to shoot spies
2. The French did not kill that crewmember, Stupid got himself killed when he decided to run on-board to get his cameras and films.

Quoting LTBEWR (Reply 66):
n that case, the French government was more wrong in their action than Greenpeace and probably led to this splinter group.

Actually Sea Shepard predates this French Naval victory.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
us330
Posts: 3506
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 7:00 am

RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:53 am

By the way, in case anybody is interested, I found this article in the New Yorker written less than a month ago about Sea Shepherd, and, in particular, it's founder and leader, Paul Watson.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...11/05/071105fa_fact_khatchadourian
 
jafa39
Posts: 4320
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:14 pm

RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:56 am



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 94):
One day they are likely to annoy the wrong whaling ship captain and he will respond with violence.

Sounds like you support that action....which really and truly makes you a hypocrite but you wouldn't be the first on the internet to be like that  Wink
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
MD-90
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:21 am



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 97):
Sounds like you support that action....which really and truly makes you a hypocrite but you wouldn't be the first on the internet to be like that

If someone tried to sink my ship I'd certainly be in the right to defend my ship and stop the attack.

But I am a libertarian and I believe in private property and the principle of non-aggression. Therefore I would not retaliate and try to destroy the private property of Sea Shepherd or kill its agents because I apparently have better morals than the ones that the criminal Paul Watson does.

If we had private property rights that covered the world's oceans we wouldn't have these problems. The Japanese would buy whaling grounds where they could hunt whales, and it would be in their self-interest not to exterminate the populations. Meanwhile, conservationists like those on this board and Paul Watson would be equally free to buy other tracts of ocean and harbor whales in safety, which I expect would have very popular charities devoted to this end. But the current system of pseudo-global "government" that the UN is a perfect example of the tragedy of the commons and of government-owned land: if it's not yours, then what interest do you have in preserving it? It's not your owned capital, after all.
 
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mariner
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:29 am



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 94):
Would you find it impossible to condemn that organization?

I love these artful parallels, especially since I have already admitted a paradox.

Obviously, I would be cross, but - paradox again - I might understand their frustrations about global warming, if not their actions. And, presumably, I could call on the forces of law and order. At least, in my country I could.

I see no forces of law and order at work in the matter of the whales, only self-serving bureaucracy.

When and if the forces of maritime law do take a stand I would expect Sea Shepherd to desist from any violent action - and I would also expect that those forces of law and order should prosecute Sea Shepherd for any violent and illegal action they may have taken.

If we are to substitute inter-governmental bureaucracy for law and order, all the latest bureaucratic attempts to save the bluefin tuna from probable extinction have - miserably - failed.

I have no taste for violence, but I am utterly sympathetic to those who, in their desperate frustration and knowing there was a probable price to pay, resorted to violence to try and get some governmental action when the (western) AIDS crisis was at its worst.

I am sorry that you don't see a "moral difference".

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aeternum nauta

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