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QANTAS077
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:38 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 95):

No, I doubt those two will get involved, but if Japanese citizens do end up killed in one of these attacks, I wouldn't put it past the IJN to deploy escorts. That wouldn't be unprecedented, The IJN does conduct overseas escort duty, usually for nuke shipments but they do do them.

not going to happen, never will...
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:42 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 100):
not going to happen, never will...

I'd love to see why you are so confident of that.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:54 am



Quoting Us330 (Reply 96):
By the way, in case anybody is interested, I found this article in the New Yorker written less than a month ago about Sea Shepherd, and, in particular, it's founder and leader, Paul Watson.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urian

Fascinating article, thanks for sharing the link...
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Boeing4ever
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:26 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 78):
And I hope they do. With any luck that will escalate to Sea Sheperd buying some russian or chinese torpedos on the black market, and I will gladly pony up some cash to witness that.

Yeah, that's a smart idea. Question, do you support Blackwater getting all sorts of arms? Are you a pacifist...because this is remarkably hypocritical of you. I got news for you...these guys wouldn't stand a chance if one of those whaling ships is being shadowed by an Aegis destroyer.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 78):
BTW, I wonder how exactly that falls into the charter of the "Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Navy" and refuelling NATO vessels off the waters of Pakistan does not.

Because NATO vessels are vessels of other nations performing operations against other nations. Japanese whaling ships with Japanese crew fall under items that would be "defended" by JMSDF vessels against pirate assaults.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 85):
It isn't an act of terrorism if it is lawful, and by the way the Charter is written, there is a strong case that what SS does is lawful.

Assaulting other ships on the high seas has NEVER been lawful. To support such a precedent turns back the clock all the way to raiders of East India Trading Company ships. Think of what you are saying.

Quoting L-188 (Reply 95):
No, I doubt those two will get involved, but if Japanese citizens do end up killed in one of these attacks, I wouldn't put it past the IJN to deploy escorts. That wouldn't be unprecedented, The IJN does conduct overseas escort duty, usually for nuke shipments but they do do them



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 100):
not going to happen, never will...



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 101):
I'd love to see why you are so confident of that.

Mostly because the IJN doesn't exist anymore. Not since 1945...JMSDF today. And yes, JMSDF would have a case...these are Japanese flagged vessels coming under pirate attacks. Perfectly constitutional to hunt down and blow SS out of the water with harpoon missiles. (how ironic)


Whaling is abhorrid...but so is piracy. It's like a debate of evil vs. evil. I'm dissappointed in a lot of you guys.

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jafa39
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:04 am



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 98):
The Japanese would buy whaling grounds where they could hunt whales, and it would be in their self-interest not to exterminate the populations. Meanwhile, conservationists like those on this board and Paul Watson would be equally free to buy other tracts of ocean and harbor whales in safety,

Dude.....whales travel a fair bit...like 1,000's of miles around the globe, you can't farm them nor can you corrall them, that is why SS do what they do because nobody else gives a damn!
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
Pyrex
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:07 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 95):
1. The ship was spying on French activites, and you are allowed to shoot spies

Oh really? In countries other than your own? Then I presume you support KGB killing off Litvinenko (according to your own very loose definition of "spying"), if indeed he was offed by the Russians.

And how exactly were those ships spying? Were they acting on behalf of another nation? Were they broadcasting anything that was not already widely known (that the French were conductiong nuclear tests there)? Or is it just the old "if you're not with us you're against us" routine?

Quoting Us330 (Reply 96):
By the way, in case anybody is interested, I found this article in the New Yorker written less than a month ago about Sea Shepherd, and, in particular, it's founder and leader, Paul Watson.

http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...urian

Thanks for the article - very interesting read.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 103):
Question, do you support Blackwater getting all sorts of arms?

Depends on the intended purpose of the arms. In principle I never support a private organization taking on the role of a government to provide security (be it patrolling a warzone or running a prison) but if a government does not act to secure its citizens then I guess it must come down to that (isn't that the whole point of the 2nd amendment of your constitution, to provide a militia against government tyranny?).

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 103):
Are you a pacifist...because this is remarkably hypocritical of you.

Whoever said I was a pacifist? I support just causes and the necessary, reasonable means to pursue them. If those means have to pass through violent confrontation then so be it - poachers are notoriously more violent to those who oppose them than any mean currently used to go after them (just go find the statistics for the number of African park rangers killed every year).

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 103):
Assaulting other ships on the high seas has NEVER been lawful. To support such a precedent turns back the clock all the way to raiders of East India Trading Company ships.

Well, that never stopped the English crown from promoting piracy, or Hollywood from glorifying it.
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MD-90
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:45 am



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 103):
Assaulting other ships on the high seas has NEVER been lawful.

That's not quite exactly true. There are letters of marque and reprisal, most famously used by the English to harass pirates and Spaniards, and our own US Constitution allows the federal government to issue them.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:50 am



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 103):
Mostly because the IJN doesn't exist anymore.

Smart alec.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:39 am



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 103):
Assaulting other ships on the high seas has NEVER been lawful.

How about the Royal Navy intercepting slave-ships after the slave trade was banned by Britain throughout the Empire ? RN ships would routinely intercept and capture any vessel they suspected of involvement with the slave trade. What about drug intercepts nowadays ? What about all the RN, KNM and French ships in the Caribbean intercepting drug shipments "on the high seas" - this is a police action, and is very much lawful. I wish it was RN ships seizing whaling ships, I really do, but if they won't do it someone has to act to enforce the treaty. Kind of like armed civilians intervening in a massacre to take out the deranged psycho - in this case the "massacred" aren't human, but are nonetheless protected by international treaty (unlike cows for example, or laboratory guinea pigs, in case anyone drags up that analogy).
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baroque
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:19 pm



Quoting MD-90 (Reply 84):
Funny, what France did is EXACTLY what Sea Shepherd does. French special operatives bombed and sank the Greenpeace ship in the harbor, just like Sea Shepherd has done numerous times. Why condemn one and not the other?

Bombing a ship moored in harbour is a little different and to my mind rather less acceptable. Not to mention an infringement on NZ sovereignty.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 108):
How about the Royal Navy intercepting slave-ships after the slave trade was banned by Britain throughout the Empire ?

Well the RAN in very recent memory chased a ship catching patagonian tooth fish all the way to near Cape Town. And impounded it.

Remember, be kind to old fish!
 
MD-90
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:31 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 109):
Bombing a ship moored in harbour is a little different and to my mind rather less acceptable. Not to mention an infringement on NZ sovereignty.

Sea Shepherd has also scuttled at least two ships that were docked in harbors. They didn't use limpet mines like the French did but apparently they opened some valves inside the ships and sunk them. But the French did infringe on NZ sovereignty and they shouldn't have sunk the Greenpeace ship.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 4:43 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 108):
...but if they won't do it someone has to act to enforce the treaty.

That's just the problem that keeps being ignored. The treaty isn't being violated.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:12 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 111):
The treaty isn't being violated

The spirit if not the letter.
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MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:26 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 112):
The spirit if not the letter.

Which counts for diddly poop. Random groups of citizens can't just decide that the spirit of the law is being broken and go galavanting around the world trying to kill people.

Find the IWC declaring Japans actions are in violation, then we'll start talking about shutting the Japanese down.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:29 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 113):
Random groups of citizens can't just decide that the spirit of the law is being broken and go galavanting around the world trying to kill people.

They weren't trying to kill people, they were trying to stop whaling from happening. Sinking the ships was just a bonus.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 113):
Find the IWC declaring Japans actions are in violation, then we'll start talking about shutting the Japanese down.

Please. Japan has the IWC completely stymied, by stitching up all the smaller nations' votes. Nothing will change until a few important people grow a conscience.
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MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:37 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 114):
They weren't trying to kill people, they were trying to stop whaling from happening. Sinking the ships was just a bonus.

They aren't trying to kill people... they're just trying to sink the ships with people on them?



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 114):
Please. Japan has the IWC completely stymied, by stitching up all the smaller nations' votes. Nothing will change until a few important people grow a conscience.

Very nice of you to openly admit that Japan isn't violating IWC rules. Ain't democracy wonderful.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:40 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 115):
Very nice of you to openly admit that Japan isn't violating IWC rules. Ain't democracy wonderful.

They are. They claim to be whaling for research purposes, when the purpose is purely commercial. This is undeniable.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 115):
They aren't trying to kill people... they're just trying to sink the ships with people on them?

Sinking poachers - hmmm let me check... nope, still a big fat zero on the sympathy-o-meter. I just wish the whales had torpedoes so they could do the job themselves.
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MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:54 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 116):
They are.

No, they aren't.. And you even admitted it when you said that Japan was able to do what it does because the IWC allows them to. You can't be violating the law when you are acting to the letter of the law. You may not like what they are doing, but that does not make what they are doing illegal. It's about time that you and other members of the forum realized that what you like and what is legal are not the same things, and you can't go trying to kill people because you don't like what they are doing, or even if you wish what they were doing is illegal.

You don't like the Japanese killing whales. That's fine and commendable, but what they are doing is legal. If you start trying to kill them for it, then you are the outlaws, not them. There's no semantics or emotions that change that. You would be a murderer of innocent people.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 116):
This is undeniable.

The why doesn't the IWC revoke the mandate that Japan sells any byproducts of scientific harvest?

Why do you constantly ignore that the sale of whale meat is in order to comply with the IWC.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 116):
Sinking poachers

They aren't poaching. They are conducting legal, sanctioned harvesting.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 116):
nope, still a big fat zero on the sympathy-o-meter.

The sympathy-o-meter has no weight in the face of the legal-o-meter.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:02 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 117):
The why doesn't the IWC revoke the mandate that Japan sells any byproducts of scientific harvest?

Like I said before, the IWC is in Japan's back pocket. Nothing will change.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 117):
The sympathy-o-meter has no weight in the face of the legal-o-meter.

OK, but try clinging to the legal-o-meter after you find yourself floating amongst the icebergs of the Southern Ocean. I just really have a hard time to trying to reconcile what may seem "legal" with what actually is "right". It is perfectly possible for the law to be wrong, and in this case all the forces of logic and reason at your disposal will not persuade me otherwise.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 117):
They aren't poaching. They are conducting legal, sanctioned harvesting.

...for purely commercial purposes. Which is not legal. Why is this not covered in the CITES treaty ?
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:13 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 118):
Like I said before, the IWC is in Japan's back pocket. Nothing will change.

Which yet again means, what Japan is doing is legal.

I know you don't like that, but that's what happens when you allow people to vote on things. You don't always get what you want.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:15 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 119):
I know you don't like that, but that's what happens when you allow people to vote on things. You don't always get what you want.

Yes well, I've always maintained democracy is a snare and a delusion. Vote for me as Supreme Non-Benevolent Oligarch !
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N1120A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:20 pm



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 103):

Assaulting other ships on the high seas has NEVER been lawful. To support such a precedent turns back the clock all the way to raiders of East India Trading Company ships. Think of what you are saying.

There is a difference between raiding a ship for its bounty and defending protected wildlife from poaching.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 119):

Which yet again means, what Japan is doing is legal.

The US government doesn't think it is legal.
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MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:23 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 121):
The US government doesn't think it is legal.

Alrighty, let's see somewhere where the US government declares Japans whaling to be illegal... and then something telling us what authority the US government has to enforce that declaration.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
Pyrex
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:31 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 117):
Why do you constantly ignore that the sale of whale meat is in order to comply with the IWC.

Why do you constantly ignore the reason the IWC mandates the sale of the meat of whales caught for "scientific research"?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 78):
And you know why that is, by any chance? To provide visibility on exactly how many whales are killed for "scientific reasons" - forcing them to sell them on the open market instead of the black market where they would inevitably end otherwise at least provides an indication on exactly how much the Japanese think the oceans belong to them (not just with whale, mind you - tuna, crab, etc., the guys have no problem in exterminating anything that swims).

Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:35 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 123):
Why do you constantly ignore the reason the IWC mandates the sale of the meat of whales caught for "scientific research"?

Because there is another easy method.

Verified destruction.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
miamiair
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:44 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 121):
There is a difference between raiding a ship for its bounty and defending protected wildlife from poaching.

Isn't that the duty of law enforcement?
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mariner
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:48 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 125):
Isn't that the duty of law enforcement?

Yes.

What law enforcement?

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
miamiair
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:50 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 126):
What law enforcement?

You mean you advocate taking the law into your own hands?
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:51 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 126):
What law enforcement?

Well, once the IWC decides to put a stop to Japans activities, any naval authority.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:53 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 127):
You mean you advocate taking the law into your own hands?

Um - read post #99.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 128):
Well, once the IWC decides to put a stop to Japans activities, any naval authority.

So it is about bureaucracy?

Pity about the bluefin tuna. No sushi for you!  Smile

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 6:55 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 129):
So it is about bureaucracy?

Isn't it always about bureaucracy?
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
N1120A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:15 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 125):

Isn't that the duty of law enforcement?

The UN Charter for Nature effectively deputizes NGOs in areas outside of territorial boundaries.
]
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miamiair
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:25 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 131):
The UN Charter for Nature effectively deputizes NGOs in areas outside of territorial boundaries.

And what NGO is deputized to perform such duties?
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
N1120A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:26 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 132):

And what NGO is deputized to perform such duties?

All NGOs by the wording of the charter.
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:28 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 130):
Isn't it always about bureaucracy?

I've never argued otherwise. But - do we all just stand back and shrug while species disappear from the planet?

Again, as I have said several times in this thread and especially in #99 - some of the actions of Sea Shepherd are almost certainly illegal.

They regard themselves as pirates - they fly the Jolly Roger. But while I don't approve of some of their methods - I cheer what they are attempting to achieve.

mariner
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QANTAS077
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:01 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 127):
You mean you advocate taking the law into your own hands?

and half the population of the US doesn't? please. Steve Irwin was NOT American and he BELIEVED in the SS's mission, you guys need to stop trying to claim him as your own and stop thinking that he would not have approved of this action. If you have any liking of Irwin and what he stood for then you'd be supporting something he undoubtedly supported. Like I said, with your government it seems that if it doesn't affect you directly then its not given a second thought...we do actually give a shit down here, I'm sure if the Japanese whale fleet was off the coast of Vancouver or Alaska you'd be up in arms.

so how about you lay off the hypocrisy for a change?
 
jafa39
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:16 pm



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 135):
I'm sure if the Japanese whale fleet was off the coast of Vancouver or Alaska you'd be up in arms.

Check out the hoo rah that got made when the Makah Nation wanted to resume sustainable hunting of Grey Whales to help restore their culture.....a lot of people got very upset!!! In fact Sea Shepherd were there at the first whale hunt in 1999.

http://www.sinc.sunysb.edu/Stu/nglasgow/WEBWHALE.htm

http://blogs.king5.com/archives/2007/09/whos_right_in_w.html

http://www.consortiumnews.com/1999/c031799a.html

So...that makes you right then my friend.  Wink
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:28 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 131):
The UN Charter for Nature effectively deputizes NGOs in areas outside of territorial boundaries.

No, it doesn't.

The charter in question says, "implement legal provisions." Sea Shephard is not implementing legal provisions.

It also says, "ensure activities in their jurisdiction". Unfortunately the UN has declared that the seas are the jurisdiction solely of soverign states. Check UNCLOS for that one.

"safeguard and conserve nature." Not be global Eco-cops.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
N1120A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:29 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 137):
It also says, "ensure activities in their jurisdiction". Unfortunately the UN has declared that the seas are the jurisdiction solely of soverign states.

The high seas are not the jurisdiction of anyone.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 137):

"safeguard and conserve nature."

Safeguard.
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MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:32 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 138):
The high seas are not the jurisdiction of anyone.

If you believe that, then the Sea Shephards also have no jurisdiction to act as they are.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 138):
Safeguard.

Which of course authorizes them to act as law enforcemnt? No, not so much.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
N1120A
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:38 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 139):

If you believe that, then the Sea Shephards also have no jurisdiction to act as they are.

Except that the Charter extends jurisdiction to pretty much anyone when it comes to the protection of nature.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 139):

Which of course authorizes them to act as law enforcemnt? No, not so much.

It authorizes them to defend as needed.
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MDorBust
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:45 pm



Quoting N1120A (Reply 140):
Except that the Charter extends jurisdiction to pretty much anyone when it comes to the protection of nature.

Again, no it doesn't. UNCLOS specifically states that soverign states only have jurisdiction at sea.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 140):
It authorizes them to defend as needed.

 redflag 

Show me anywhere that it even implies using any necessary force.
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Boeing4ever
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:35 pm



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 105):
Well, that never stopped the English crown from promoting piracy, or Hollywood from glorifying it.

There have been films made promoting Naziism. Does that make Nazis ok? Didn't think so.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 105):
Depends on the intended purpose of the arms. In principle I never support a private organization taking on the role of a government to provide security (be it patrolling a warzone or running a prison) but if a government does not act to secure its citizens then I guess it must come down to that (isn't that the whole point of the 2nd amendment of your constitution, to provide a militia against government tyranny?).

The intent of the arms is to destroy commercial whaling vessels. Last I checked these vessels do not represent a threat to any one nation. Next, SS, does not represent any nation. Further, the 2nd Amendement stops at the borders of the US...SS bases itself in Australia and NZ. And finally, what tyranny does a whaling ship represent!?

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 105):
Whoever said I was a pacifist? I support just causes and the necessary, reasonable means to pursue them. If those means have to pass through violent confrontation then so be it - poachers are notoriously more violent to those who oppose them than any mean currently used to go after them (just go find the statistics for the number of African park rangers killed every year).

Yes, and those poachers are engaging Park Rangers...entities bestowed with the authority to protect African wildlife. They are not high seas vigilantes who answer to noone but themselves.

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 108):
How about the Royal Navy intercepting slave-ships after the slave trade was banned by Britain throughout the Empire ? RN ships would routinely intercept and capture any vessel they suspected of involvement with the slave trade. What about drug intercepts nowadays ? What about all the RN, KNM and French ships in the Caribbean intercepting drug shipments "on the high seas" - this is a police action, and is very much lawful. I wish it was RN ships seizing whaling ships, I really do, but if they won't do it someone has to act to enforce the treaty. Kind of like armed civilians intervening in a massacre to take out the deranged psycho - in this case the "massacred" aren't human, but are nonetheless protected by international treaty (unlike cows for example, or laboratory guinea pigs, in case anyone drags up that analogy).

The RN and SS do not compare. Everything you've listed are the navies of sovereign nations upholding laws. You're trying to compare high seas vigilante pirates with the RN...you've lost it dude. Beware, that the RN, KNM, and French navy would likely be hunting down SS, and not the whaling ships. It is SS that is breaking maritime law in this case.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 121):
There is a difference between raiding a ship for its bounty and defending protected wildlife from poaching.

Yes there is. What you don't see is that SS does the former, and not the latter. They do not help the cause by resorting to extremism and attempted murder of Japanese crewmen. By ramming these ships, they take unnecessary offensive action. What will you say when you see a group trying to sink oil tankers?  Yeah sure That it's ok, because Big Oil hurts the world? Indeed they do...but what of the consequences when you spill all that crude?

If SS wanted to help, they could spread more awareness of the issue and actually lobby to stop it. I don't see them lobbying...I see them running around playing pirate. And playing pirate DOES NOT help their credibility.

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QANTAS077
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:40 pm



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 136):
So...that makes you right then my friend.

the general direction of this thread was sewn up with its original heading...  Wink just the usual bullshit of someone else trying to claim Irwin as their own and not knowing what it is that the man actually stood for.
 
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:41 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 139):
Which of course authorizes them to act as law enforcemnt? No, not so much.

I don't think they are acting as "law enforcers". I don't think they perceive themselves as such.

Has any country chosen to prosecute them? They wouldn't be hard to find and they don't make any secret of what they do.

If they were to be prosecuted, I suppose they could try and claim a sort of perpetual warrant from Margaret Thatcher, who, while still PM of the United Kingdom, made the following statement:

http://www.margaretthatcher.org/spee...s/displaydocument.asp?docid=108237

"We must remember our duty to Nature before it is too late. That duty is constant. It is never completed. It lives on as we breathe. It endures as we eat and sleep, work and rest, as we are born and as we pass away.

The duty to Nature will remain long after our own endeavours have brought peace to the Middle East. It will weigh on our shoulders for as long as we wish to dwell on a living and thriving planet, and hand it on to our children and theirs."


Since they do not fly the British flag, that would be tough. Compelling to those who care about the planet, but tough to prove in law.

It would be interesting to see where they could be arrested and where any such trial might take place, and the attuitude of the local population.

And what the charges would be.

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Pyrex
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:24 am



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 142):
And finally, what tyranny does a whaling ship represent!?

Did you read the article someone posted above? Poachers resolting to violence to impede any protest of their activities and cooperating with corrupt authorities to beat the hell out anyone who tries to stand for nature (including the head of the Galapagos national park) certainly counts as tyranny in my books.
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jafa39
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:48 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 144):
"We must remember our duty to Nature before it is too late. That duty is constant. It is never completed. It lives on as we breathe. It endures as we eat and sleep, work and rest, as we are born and as we pass away.

Maggie T was so concerned for this nature that she shut down all the coal mines and brought in filthy low-grade coal from europe to ensure the acid rain washed everything clean......man she sucked!!
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:07 am



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 146):
..man she sucked!!

Yes, I agree.

Finally, the measure of anyone is what they do, not what they say. But I cannot argue with the statements quoted.

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MD-90
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:44 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 144):
I don't think they are acting as "law enforcers". I don't think they perceive themselves as such.

You think wrong. The first words out of Paul Watson's mouth in pretty much any encounter with whalers is "You are violating international law. Leave the area immediately." He portrays himself as an enforcer of the law...unfortunately it's law that doesn't actually exist.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 144):
It would be interesting to see where they could be arrested and where any such trial might take place, and the attuitude of the local population.

Paul Watson was arrested and spent 90 days in jail in Iceland, but since he was the only witness the prosecution couldn't bring a case against him, so the government eventually let him go. According to the New Yorker article, this incident severely damaged the save the whales movement in Iceland.

Later he was arrested again but Norway refused to extradite him to Iceland so the case was dropped. It seems that many governments view prosecuting him as more trouble than it's worth.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Eco-Terrorists Name Boat After Steve Irwin.

Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:13 am



Quoting Pyrex (Reply 145):
Did you read the article someone posted above? Poachers resolting to violence to impede any protest of their activities and cooperating with corrupt authorities to beat the hell out anyone who tries to stand for nature (including the head of the Galapagos national park) certainly counts as tyranny in my books.

Indeed, and again, these poachers are coming after government authorities.

Whalers are going after noone. Rather, SS is harassing and attempting to kill whalers. And they do so while flauting maritime law and acting like their own clandestine military force. Few sovereign nations would stand for this. Do you see the difference? Figured you wouldn't. Pirates, terrorists, whatever, as long as they support a cause of yours they get your blind support eh?

Whaling is better combated through real public attention (not piracy on the high seas), and actual commitment from maritime nations. Problem is that SS completely sabotages the cause with their acts of high seas terrorism.

May the JMSDF hunt these thugs down and seize them all.

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