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MaverickM11
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I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:33 pm

You see this every time there is a horrific event, people thanking God for sparing them, but isn't He repsonsible for putting you in that position in the first place?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22198709/

"“As he slumped down and his head tilted, I said to her, ‘That’s the calmest, bravest thing I‘ve ever seen. How did you do it?’ “ he said. “She said ‘I was praying and asking the Holy Spirit the entire time to guide me.’ ”

Vieira asked Bourbannais if he realized that he could have been killed.

“I figured my chances were 30 percent,” he said, as calm as if he were describing a trip to the corner store.

“It’s the grace of God,” he said. “Like Jeanne, we’re both followers of Christ. I want to give God the glory, because I’m convinced He spared us that day.”

"

But wasn't the "grace of God" or "He" responsible for the guy shooting at you too?
I don't take responsibility at all
 
JGPH1A
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:35 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
But wasn't the "grace of God" or "He" responsible for the guy shooting at you too?

Falcon, here's another one ! Sic 'em boy, smite the Ungodly !  Smile
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
Klaus
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:40 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
You see this every time there is a horrific event, people thanking God for sparing them, but isn't He repsonsible for putting you in that position in the first place?

Exactly. And it also implies that everybody who wasn't "spared" just had it coming - probably for not being a good and faithful enough person...  hypnotized 

Which is a rather sick concept.
 
Toast
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:41 pm

All I can say is, thank God I'm an atheist.

Edit: typo. Thank God for correcting my error, and boo to Satan who made me commit it.

[Edited 2007-12-11 15:04:54]
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
bok269
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:44 pm

Ok, so you have one person making a comment that may be contradictory. Don't discount all religion due to one group.

[Edited 2007-12-11 14:49:52]

[Edited 2007-12-11 14:50:10]
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
Klaus
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 10:51 pm



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 4):
You believe what you want to believe. Let the believers believe. Really no harm in that.

Sure - as long as they're not trying to impose their ideas and "morals" on others...!
 
joness0154
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:02 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):

But wasn't the "grace of God" or "He" responsible for the guy shooting at you too?


In short, yes and no.

In my view, when God created the world he intended it to be perfect. No pain, no suffering.....perfect. And he gave mankind the choice to follow him and they chose not to listen. Now the world is not perfect. Pain and suffering do exist due to the consequences of not following his way. The coward in this shooting chose not to follow his ways, and he was the one that inflicted the suffering on others. I also believe that God allows the suffering purposefully in some situations, in order to fulfill a greater need or good that no one but he can understand.

If you want to read on the subject

"When Bad Things Happen to Good People"
"Making Sense out of Suffering"

[Edited 2007-12-11 15:11:33]
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
mainMAN
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:13 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 3):
All I can say is, thank God I'm an atheist.

Thank God I'm a heretic.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
Sure - as long as they're not trying to impose their ideas and "morals" on others...!

Which some of them shamelessly do all the time.
 
OlegShv
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:25 pm

I wonder what religious folks think about children born with heart defects. Why does "the loving God" make them suffer?
 
MDorBust
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:28 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
But wasn't the "grace of God" or "He" responsible for the guy shooting at you too?

Not since he made the mistake of giving everyone free will.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
bagpiper
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:32 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
Sure - as long as they're not trying to impose their ideas and "morals" on others...!

Ok, first, I swear I'm not on a Klaus bashing day, ok? I would have quoted somebody else, if they had said basically the same thing.

Anyways:

Yes, I agree. People should not impose their moral standards.

However - is it wrong to kill a person? Why were cannibals wrong / evil / disgusting, etc? Or, is it only wrong because it is against the law?

Yes, yes, we all know it is wrong to kill somebody. But how can it be wrong, if we cannot impose morals on others?

Same with people who say there is no absolute truth - then its not true that it is wrong to kill people, because truth is not there. Nor is the truth in their statement about no absolute truth, because there is no absolutes, ... [downward spiral continues]
 
redngold
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:36 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
%u201CShe said %u2018I was praying and asking the Holy Spirit the entire time to guide me.%u2019 %u201D

Yes, and she also said that she felt the Holy Spirit helped her to prevent

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
it also implies that everybody who wasn't "spared" just had it coming

You're taking this out of context even though the article was quoted. The man thought he was going to die; he thought he had a 30% chance of living. He's thanking God for grace in allowing him to live. There's no negative words there - it's your reaction that is negative.
Up, up and away!
 
Klaus
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:46 pm



Quoting Bagpiper (Reply 12):
Yes, I agree. People should not impose their moral standards.

However - is it wrong to kill a person? Why were cannibals wrong / evil / disgusting, etc? Or, is it only wrong because it is against the law?

Those things don't require religion to perceive them as wrong. The innate taboo against cannibalism requires a substantial cultural motivation to overcome it anyway - and atheists and religious people alike in our civilization will generally(!) agree that this is not a desirable or even acceptable expression of culture.

The moral impact of religion is massively overstated. Most fundamental moral standards are innate or otherwise near-universal independent of religion (or its absence).

Quoting Redngold (Reply 13):
You're taking this out of context even though the article was quoted. The man thought he was going to die; he thought he had a 30% chance of living. He's thanking God for grace in allowing him to live. There's no negative words there - it's your reaction that is negative.

It is the inescapable back side of the same coin.

Saying that someone was saved because he was worthy automatically implies that someone who wasn't saved was unworthy.

This coin has two sides like every other one, and just ignoring one of them doesn't make it otherwise.
 
bok269
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:49 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
The moral impact of religion is massively overstated. Most fundamental moral standards are innate or otherwise near-universal independent of religion (or its absence).

It seems that way because we have never known anything different. But I wouldn't be so sure that without religion people would view it as such a moral faux pax.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
Klaus
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:55 pm



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 15):
It seems that way because we have never known anything different. But I wouldn't be so sure that without religion people would view it as such a moral faux pax.

The cannibalism taboo (and several other "moral" standards) even exists in many animal species and all across the human species - whether they have actual religions or not and of whatever kind.

And since even the religions are extremely diverse between each other, commonalities would strongly suggest a genetic link. Genetically determined or co-determined behaviour is nothing new at all.
 
bagpiper
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:58 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
The moral impact of religion is massively overstated. Most fundamental moral standards are innate or otherwise near-universal independent of religion (or its absence).

Mmmm.... I'd disagree. Take for example, quite a few of violent tribes of people who were turned around into peaceful tribes after being converted to Christianity.

Why do prison ministries have such a high impact? Why do they lower the rates of convicts returning to prison time after time?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
Those things don't require religion to perceive them as wrong. The innate taboo against cannibalism requires a substantial cultural motivation to overcome it anyway - and atheists and religious people alike in our civilization will generally(!) agree that this is not a desirable or even acceptable expression of culture.

Yes, there is a taboo - and I'm not trying to say anything along the lines of people of any other religion would think cannibalism is ok. However - I'm not a big history buff on cannibalism - but I wonder what made cannibals in history turn from their cannibalism? Being exposed to civilized society? Exposed to a religion? Or were they just shot by westerners?
 
bok269
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:58 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
The cannibalism taboo (and several other "moral" standards) even exists in many animal species and all across the human species - whether they have actual religions or not and of whatever kind.

Could it possibly have to do with natural selection? Think about it-a species that uncontrollably destroys each other isn't going to last very long.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
Klaus
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:07 am



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 18):
Could it possibly have to do with natural selection? Think about it-a species that uncontrollably destroys each other isn't going to last very long.

Could well be, on some level; Groups of humans would otherwise probably collapse too quickly in a food crisis, with all the emotional and group-dynamic catastrophies it would entail.

Even the few cannibalistic cultures have devised strict rules for the practice, but it still seems to be rather problematic (even apart from the physical health concerns).
 
fumanchewd
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:30 am



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
But wasn't the "grace of God" or "He" responsible for the guy shooting at you too?

What would be the point in life if everything we did was preordained by god? That's just silly. Free will is what makes us human. Free will is what makes people take action, whether it is a good action or bad action. It is my belief that god (as a force not understood by me) wants all of us to do what is right in the world. What is right is not black and white, but it certainly is known to us. If you're mad at your baby for crying so much, do you smack it around? If you do, you are not doing what is right and you are not living with what you know is right. Couldn't this be sin? I think that some areas of right and wrong are very gray and I try not to pass judgement on people. Some areas, however, are very clearly right.

In that end, if someone believes that they were spared from dying, it makes perfect sense, because humans reaching or running from god ultimately set a chain of reactions into motion that saved their lives. That even the bad interacted with the good to make reality is a truth that even an atheist cannot deny. But to what end? Alot of bad things happen in the world. It is always because of man's actions that these things happen. The great thing about god, in my belief, is that no matter what, everything will always be ok and good. Even if I am murdered by someone, it is just a step in the good that is life. Death is as natural as birth.

It makes since that she wants to be grateful because she believes that she was spared being killed. God is responsible for the total. Man is responsible for the parts.

I personally don't see how prayer fits into the equation. But that's just me and I respect people who believe prayer works.

Maybe people should be more respectful of people who are thankful for what they are given. Atheists seem to be uber-judgemental in relation to a judge-penitent.

In the end, man is nothing and there is something that drives us more than just being men. It is not science. I digress to Vonnegut's Cat's Cradle. Look at the news, it is not conscience. People who believe in nothing but man believe in nothing. Ex nihilio nihil fit.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Klaus
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:43 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 20):
People who believe in nothing but man believe in nothing.

You won't find many if any atheists which share this typically christian idea of atheism.

The alternative to deriving every moral standard from mythical traditions is not to not have any at all as you claim. It is to derive those moral standards from innate, inherent and only to a marginal extent from traditional sources.

Religious leaders generally claim that those innate and inherent sources were completely and utterly void and worthless, but that's simply not the case - although I can see that they desperately need this false claim in the context of their religious marketing.

Even most of the ten commandments in reality derive automatically from genetically imposed or self-evident philosophical sources. The introduction of the idea of a god is entirely redundant to motivate most of them (in some cases even counter-productive). Of course the god-specific commandments will be considered irrelevant, redundant and counterproductive themselves by any atheist.

For an atheist there is no real "grace (or wrath) of god" - only a very human need to interpret particularly harrowing experiences as such.
 
fumanchewd
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:20 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
You won't find many if any atheists which share this typically christian idea of atheism.

You don't have to be christian to believe in god or to know that men who only believe in men are hoping for the "natural" goodness of men. Good luck with that. Greed is greed, fear is fear, and envy is envy. No matter if one is a theist or an atheist. To me god is not a set of rules to follow but the inevitable good outcome of everything. It is a very open minded belief system with the exception of country music and reality shows. Those are cold evil.  Smile

Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
It is to derive those moral standards from innate, inherent and only to a marginal extent from traditional sources.

Such as???? Roman standards of morality? How about Greek standards? You don't want to open that can of worms with me.  Wow! Perhaps by "traditional sources" you mean the old testament?  devil  Even that is permeated with immorality. Where do humanists get their moral standards? I love Sartre's (an atheist) opinion of humanists. If I have time I will whip out "Nausea" and quote a few lines when I get back to my tabernacle.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
Religious leaders generally claim that those innate and inherent sources were completely and utterly void and worthless, but that's simply not the case - although I can see that they desperately need this false claim in the context of their religious marketing.

What society has constructed a matrix of morality that didn't involve aministic, religious, or polytheistic forms of morality? The US constitution attempted to limit the hold or religion in state, yet paradoxically many of the laws were based on religious beliefs. I am not aware of any atheists either. We could discuss the EU, but I already have a headache from work today.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
For an atheist there is no real "grace (or wrath) of god" - only a very human need to interpret particularly harrowing experiences as such.

I don't believe that anyone here can claim that either one is right. I do understand the theists point however, and I believe it should be respected and not ridiculed by "open minded and more intelligent" atheists.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 21):
Of course the god-specific commandments will be considered irrelevant, redundant and counterproductive themselves by any atheist.

I have tried not to lump all atheists together, but perhaps it seems I have. You seem to believe that all theists believe in the commandments though. This is not correct. Generalizations such as these are abundent on both sides. It would seem that atheists are as close minded as theists.

What I am trying to say is that mandating morality is impossible from either viewpoint and ultimately not the point. This is about a women being thankful for being alive.

Again, I don't follow the prayer thing but this is her beliefs and it amazes me that people are offended by it. I guess bowing down to science and the innate morality of atheistic man will save the world.  Yeah sure
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
bagpiper
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:24 am



Quoting Bagpiper (Reply 17):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
The moral impact of religion is massively overstated. Most fundamental moral standards are innate or otherwise near-universal independent of religion (or its absence). [/Quoting Klaus]

Mmmm.... I'd disagree. Take for example, quite a few of violent tribes of people who were turned around into peaceful tribes after being converted to Christianity.

Why do prison ministries have such a high impact? Why do they lower the rates of convicts returning to prison time after time?

ahem? did it get lost in translation?
 
zak
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:49 am

people are split between those who react to life threatening situation with raised alertness that goes along with a strong focus on the situation and those who develop confusion, panic and buckle under pressure.
it sounds very plausible to me that a person who had been brainwashed or lets say mentally adjusted towards making religious interpretations towards about everything, it is really no suprise that the most likely unprecedented rush of natural survival instincts has overwhelmed this person in a way that this person can only conclude it was divine intervention.
10=2
 
QFA380
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:49 am



Quoting OlegShv (Reply 10):
I wonder what religious folks think about children born with heart defects. Why does "the loving God" make them suffer?

God has a plan for everything. As one of the most quoted verses of the Bible states, Jeremiah 29:11, 'For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.'

You're saying that life must be worthless with a heart defect, the heart is one part of the amazingly complex system that keeps everyone of us alive for our time. That child could be inspired by their own doctors and become a doctor, dedicating their life to helping their fellow man through similar struggles they them self faced. That person with a heart defect may never have become a doctor were it not for that defect.

'A plan is a proposed or intended method of getting from one set of circumstances to another. They are often used to move from the present situation, towards the achievement of one or more objectives or goals.'

We humans will pass through this world so quickly, you start out as nothing but in that short amount of time you have on this planet, you can do so much. Death will eventually catch up to you, you can run as fast as you can to do as much as you can. If death has almost caught up with you, but God has stopped it and given you a headstart that is something to be thankful for, as long as you use that time God has given you. It doesn't necessarily mean God hates whoever gets killed, it means that God didn't feel the need to save that person, they may have already fulfilled their plan or that was part of His plan. We never know...
 
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Tugger
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:50 am



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
But wasn't the "grace of God" or "He" responsible for the guy shooting at you too?

God doesn't kill people, PEOPLE kill people.

(OK if you're going to nit-pick, this is since Jesus was sent to die for everyones sins)

Tug
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
OlegShv
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:29 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 22):
Where do humanists get their moral standards?

I'd say that moral standards depend on the society where individual is born, raised, and currently lives. Major factors include economic situation, influence of religious dogmas, and the level of knowledge about the surrounding world. For example, in our days slavery is considered immoral, but only a few centuries ago it was just fine. Economic situation changed over centuries. Slavery became no longer necessary and in our days it's considered highly immoral. So basically, it's the environment that we live in is what mostly defines the morals.
 
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LTU932
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:34 am



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
But wasn't the "grace of God" or "He" responsible for the guy shooting at you too?

Maybe, from a certain point of view, the "grace of God" put that guy in that position as a test. Some people may think that certain situations that one gets into due to "His grace" are because He wants to test them. Sounds silly, but it's quite possible.

Quoting Toast (Reply 3):
thank God I'm an atheist

Hell yeah!  bigthumbsup 
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
BN747
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:35 am



Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 7):

In my view, when God created the world he intended it to be perfect. No pain, no suffering.....perfect. And he gave mankind the choice to follow him and they chose not to listen. Now the world is not perfect. Pain and suffering do exist due to the consequences of not following his way.

Wait a sec....

That line of thought would suggest that 'God' created Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune to be perfect too! So what Galactic sin did Jupiter commit a few years back that sent a giant space rock into a violent collision (that would have obliterated the Earth) ...leaving a mark so large it could be seen from Earth. But these planets were new at some point in time and will grow old (all of them)...and die (or get obliterated) -- meaning that either they all created a sin (to die).. or none were created 'to be perfect'.... ...which is it?

...Or the 3rd option, thsi so called god fella, had nothing to do with any of them-


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
bagpiper
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:45 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 29):

That line of thought would suggest that 'God' created Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune to be perfect too! So what Galactic sin did Jupiter commit a few years back that sent a giant space rock into a violent collision (that would have obliterated the Earth) ...leaving a mark so large it could be seen from Earth. But these planets were new at some point in time and will grow old (all of them)...and die (or get obliterated) -- meaning that either they all created a sin (to die).. or none were created 'to be perfect'.... ...which is it?

Thats like saying when we boil water, or burn oil, we wouldnt have done that in a perfect world. After all, what did the water or oil do to get obliterated / burned?
 
slider
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:46 am



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
people thanking God for sparing them, but isn't He repsonsible for putting you in that position in the first place?

No, because humans have free will.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 25):
God has a plan for everything. As one of the most quoted verses of the Bible states, Jeremiah 29:11, 'For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future.'

It's a great verse. And as I've heard speakers interpret it so brilliantly, just because you don't understand the pain doesn't mean there isn't a purpose.

Is there a purpose in this shooting?

Well, to save lives certainly. To remind people of the frailty of our human lives and to love one another. THAT is the Grace of God.
 
BN747
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:25 am



Quoting Bagpiper (Reply 30):
Thats like saying when we boil water, or burn oil, we wouldnt have done that in a perfect world. After all, what did the water or oil do to get obliterated / burned?

Perhaps you should read the post again....

Comment:

Quoting Joness0154, Reply=7:


In my view, when God created the world he intended it to be perfect. No pain, no suffering.....perfect. And he gave mankind the choice to follow him and they chose not to listen. Now the world is not perfect. Pain and suffering do exist due to the consequences of not following his way.

...And reply...

Reply by me : That line of thought would suggest that 'God' created Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune to be perfect too! So what Galactic sin did Jupiter commit a few years back that sent a giant space rock into a violent collision (that would have obliterated the Earth) ...leaving a mark so large it could be seen from Earth. But these planets were new at some point in time and will grow old (all of them)...and die (or get obliterated) -- meaning that either they all created a sin (to die).. or none were created 'to be perfect'.... ...which is it?


..in your wayward analogy, are you equating .. 'YOU' deciding to boil water.. with God (or whomever) deciding to hurl a rock towards Jupiter?


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:55 am



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
but isn't He repsonsible[sic] for putting you in that position in the first place?

Was He responsible [according to YOU] for the people inside the WTC back on 9/11/2001 ?
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:29 am



Quoting LTU932 (Reply 26):
Maybe, from a certain point of view, the "grace of God" put that guy in that position as a test.

God is not a puppeteer and we are not His puppets.
He always want the best to all of us, not the opposite.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:08 am

We [Catholics] all accept predestination, in one form or another. However there is a range of permissible positions. Aquinas held a position that seems to me identical to Calvin's. Other Catholics hold positions that seem to me rather similar to Arminius'. The official standard in this area is the Council of Trent. The canons from Trent include a couple of statements that seem unambiguously Arminian. E.g. it is stated both that God does not predestine anyone to damnation, and that the operation of grace can be resisted. However it is possible to understand these in a sense that is compatible with Aquinas (and Calvin).

Aquinas uses the term "predestine" to refer to God's action in moving people to salvation. For those who are not saved, he uses the term "reprobation." As described above, these are not completely symmetrical. God does not move people to damnation in the way that he moves them to salvation. He simply leaves them alone. To say that God works the same way in both cases would be making God the source of sin, which no Christian would want to do. Thus one can read Trent as saying simply that God does not predestine anyone to damnation in the same sense as he predestines people to salvation. Such an interpretation is consistent with Aquinas/Calvin.

The statement that the operation of grace can be resisted can be taken in such a sense as well. It can be taken as a description on the human level. Calvin certainly agrees that people act as intelligent beings, with a will. There are people to whom the Gospel is preached, but they reject it. On the human level, we can say that they have rejected grace. However when you look at things from the point of view of God's plan, God's plan included that rejection, as well as the factors that led the person to reject the Gospel. Calvin tends to use the term grace only for God's actions to save the elect. In that use, grace can't be successfully resisted, since when God chooses to save someone, he makes sure that what he does is sufficient to overcome any obstacles.

Catholic theology tends to use the term "cooperation" to describe the human reaction to grace. For many Catholics, this represents a reaction to God's grace that accepts it, and results in justification. As a result, whether a person is justified is not solely up to God, but requires also this cooperation. However the term cooperation can also be understand in a sense compatible with Aquinas or Calvin. In this sense it refers to the fact that human beings are not machines. When God gives grace, he does it in a manner that results in a real change in the human will, such that the person responds to God. The elect do God's will intentionally, while those who are not do it unintentionally. I should note that from Calvin's point of view, this is part of sanctification, not justification. But Catholic theology doesn't distinguish these as consistently as Protestant theology.

The 1908 Catholic Encyclopedia reviews the range of Catholic views in its article on predestination. While this is an oversimplification, it describes two major types of approach. All Catholics accept predestination, in that there is a fixed number of people who will be saved, which God knew from creation. However there are two different ways God can know it. One is that he first decided to save a specific set of people, and took the necessary steps. The other is that he knows how any individual will respond in any circumstances. So those who are predestined are those who God has forseen will respond to grace.

The first position is that of Aquinas and Calvin. The second is very close to Arminius (at least with respect to predestination; as a Protestant theologian, he disagrees with Catholics on many other issues). Arminius was willing to use the term predestination, but for him, predestination was in Christ. That is, God predestined all who would have faith in Christ to be saved. The Catholic Encyclopedia regards the second (Arminian) approach as superior, although it acknowledges that both are acceptable. (Of course it rejects Calvin's presentation of predestination, but I think there's good reason to believe that this is a misunderstanding.) My sense is that the great majority of us [Catholics] take a position that I would classify as Arminian in terms of its approach to predestination.

[Edited 2007-12-11 23:11:39]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
BN747
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:42 am



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 32):
He always want the best to all of us, not the opposite.

Oh?

If he REALLY wanted the 'BEST' for all of us...then..

He would have PREVENTED the Holocaust...

He would have PREVENTED the Armenian Genocide

He would have PREVENTED WWI

He would have PREVENTED Slavery in Americas (north & south)

He would have PREVENTED the obliteration of Native Americans

He would have PREVENTED the Spanish Inquisition

...either he WANTED those things to occur...

OR he could not stop them..

OR the Devil has a far mightier hand!

But 'he wants the BEST for us BUT cannot prevent disasters OR chooses not to..

makes your statement ...'he WANTS the best for us' ...completely false and contradictory.


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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bwest
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:21 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
If he REALLY wanted the 'BEST' for all of us...then..

Religious people will just tell you: "but god didn't want all that, but he gave the people the choice to do what they want"

Religion versus reason is a lost battle, because at the starting point of religion lies a myth, a story, written by humans, and open to interpretation by anybody. Even if you prove something in a religion to be illogical or not correct, religion has the advantage to say "oh but, we cannot understand that because its part of gods plan" or "it's like that because god wanted it"...

In the end, it comes down to wanting to feel better, more superior. My god is better then yours... (if not, I wouldn't believe in him). But that ofcourse leads to dangerous situations. And next thing you know, you have planes flying into buildings.

Something that always fascinated me. If allah or god or who-ever is so mighty and powerfull, why must humans then still think he needs human help in converting other humans to believe in him. If that god wants me to believe in him, can't he just "make it happen", after all, he "created" me. Also, why must people who punish others say they're fullfilling gods will.... is that god so weak that he needs puny humans to do his dirty work for him.

I choose not to believe in these fairy tales, and if I die and proven wrong, and have to appear before some god, I would have one or two things to say to him... ( just imagine it's Jupiter! Boy, he must be pissed off after being ignored for 2000 years!)
 
JGPH1A
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:41 am



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):
Not since he made the mistake of giving everyone free will.

That will be corrected in the next release.

Signed
God.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
scottieprecord
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:41 am

When God lets his people be hurt, he's just warning them, trying to prevent them from an eternity in hell. Or at least that's what my pre-school sunday teacher told me... I just haven't grown the mental capacity yet to actually question the morals instilled in me when I was 5. I have a hard time thinking for myself.

So, assuming she was correct, God was punishing the tsunami victims because many of them aren't Christian. And that's why he allowed the atomic bombs to go off because most Japanese people aren't Christian - they're going to hell =(. Either way, that's why I want to be a missionary so I can help save these people like God does! WWJD

Interestingly, a friend and I actually had this exact conversation this morning, discussing how absurd the idea of a benevolent creator is. I wish people wouldn't be so afraid to question what they believe in.
 
BN747
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:03 am



Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 37):
When God lets his people be hurt, he's just warning them, trying to prevent them from an eternity in hell. Or at least that's what my pre-school sunday teacher told me... I just haven't grown the mental capacity yet to actually question the morals instilled in me when I was 5. I have a hard time thinking for myself.

You have a hard time thinking for yourself? ... cut yourself a break, you're pretty young right now and a lot of experience to gain. The line of teachers (sunday school and otherwise) 'implanting' kids with far-fetched screwy explanations goes back centuries. In the mix of things, you (I and everyone else) have had some great to wacky, reckless teachers...so cross check and question them all...even the good ones. This is the path to formulating your own judgments and opinions vs passing on unchecked and unquestioned ignorance.

Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 37):
So, assuming she was correct, God was punishing the tsunami victims because many of them aren't Christian. And that's why he allowed the atomic bombs to go off because most Japanese people aren't Christian - they're going to hell =(. Either way, that's why I want to be a missionary so I can help save these people like God does! WWJD

Wow..I don't even know where to go with that one. All I can say is if only the '26-year old Scottieprecord' (future you) could listen to the current version saying the above'...right now!

Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 37):
Interestingly, a friend and I actually had this exact conversation this morning, discussing how absurd the idea of a benevolent creator is. I wish people wouldn't be so afraid to question what they believe in.

With regard to your comments above..there's a good opportunity to 'put to practice your own beliefs'...without haste!

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 36):
Quoting MDorBust (Reply 9):
Not since he made the mistake of giving everyone free will.

That will be corrected in the next release.

Signed
God.

LOL...good one

Quoting Bwest (Reply 35):
I choose not to believe in these fairy tales, and if I die and proven wrong, and have to appear before some god, I would have one or two things to say to him... ( just imagine it's Jupiter! Boy, he must be pissed off after being ignored for 2000 years!)

Now that would be cool...Jupiter, large and in charge! I'd roll with that..until he f's it up--


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
Doona
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:41 am

I still haven't gotten over the "If Mary was the mother of God, AND the mother of Jesus, how can Jesus be the son of God?"-thing... you know, unless things were a little... um... Utah...

Cheers
Mats
Sure, we're concerned for our lives. Just not as concerned as saving 9 bucks on a roundtrip to Ft. Myers.
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:57 pm

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):

Oh?

If he REALLY wanted the 'BEST' for all of us...then..

He would have PREVENTED the Holocaust...

He would have PREVENTED the Armenian Genocide

He would have PREVENTED WWI

He would have PREVENTED Slavery in Americas (north & south)

He would have PREVENTED the obliteration of Native Americans

He would have PREVENTED the Spanish Inquisition

...either he WANTED those things to occur...

OR he could not stop them..

OR the Devil has a far mightier hand!

But 'he wants the BEST for us BUT cannot prevent disasters OR chooses not to..

makes your statement ...'he WANTS the best for us' ...completely false and contradictory.




He didn't prevented that because He gave us "free will", and we decide about our own acts.
God’s sovereignty is too fragile if He cannot allow us free will. Does God want to sneak a bunch of dirty sinners into Heaven who are no more than robots without free will? Or does God want to raise up sons and daughters whom He glorifies and empowers with his own Divine life - including free will - to choose Him freely or reject Him freely? We did not get free will on our own; it is God's gift. If man has no free will, and is saved apart from any cooperation with grace, then the reprobate is also damned apart from any free will. This makes God the author of evil; which in my opinion is blasphemy!

[Edited 2007-12-12 05:02:57]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
joness0154
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:07 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 27):

That line of thought would suggest that 'God' created Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune to be perfect too! So what Galactic sin did Jupiter commit a few years back that sent a giant space rock into a violent collision (that would have obliterated the Earth) ...leaving a mark so large it could be seen from Earth. But these planets were new at some point in time and will grow old (all of them)...and die (or get obliterated) -- meaning that either they all created a sin (to die).. or none were created 'to be perfect'.... ...which is it?

Yep, you're right. They were perfect, up until man sinned and the entire universe is now susceptible to not being perfect (sin, pain, suffering, etc).
I don't have an attitude problem. You have a perception problem
 
zak
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:10 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 40):
We did not get free will on our own; it is God's gift. If man has no free will, and is saved apart from any cooperation with grace, then the reprobate is also damned apart from any free will. This makes God the author of evil; which in my opinion is blasphemy!

so since i, as an antitheist, refuse the concept that GOD gave me free will, i am committing blashphemy whenever i am doing something evil? after all christians dont think god only exists for them but is a universal being, hence this logic is applicable to non christians aswell.
if i ever needed a motivation to commit some evil acts, you just gave me my rotten unreligious ass a new way to commit even more blashphemy  Wink
i might aswell do so in due time anyway, since often, people promote that without religion or fear of celestial dictatorship and punishment, people would not act morally sound.
10=2
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:56 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 42):

so since i, as an antitheist, refuse the concept that GOD gave me free will, i am committing blashphemy[sic] whenever i am doing something evil?

blas·phe·my /ˈblæsfəmi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[blas-fuh-mee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun, plural -mies.
1. impious utterance or action concerning God or sacred things.
2. Judaism.
a. an act of cursing or reviling God.
b. pronunciation of the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) in the original, now forbidden manner instead of using a substitute pronunciation such as Adonai.
3. Theology. the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.
4. irreverent behavior toward anything held sacred, priceless, etc.: He uttered blasphemies against life itself.

The concept of "blasphemy" is in intimate relation with God. Since you're an atheist, why are you worry about?
What is important is your OWN answer to your OWN question. Not mine.
I simply don't have the right to judge you.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
bagpiper
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:58 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 30):
..in your wayward analogy, are you equating .. 'YOU' deciding to boil water.. with God (or whomever) deciding to hurl a rock towards Jupiter?

Both are "harming" an inanimate object. Whats the difference? Jupiter doesn't have feelings. The planet does not have internal bleeding from the rock...

Really, I don't get what your point was... God decided to let an acorn drop on a leaf, which got a hole punched in it. OMFG poor leaf, its injured?

[confused]
 
BN747
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:03 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 40):
He didn't prevented that because He gave us "free will", and we decide about our own acts.
God’s sovereignty is too fragile if He cannot allow us free will. Does God want to sneak a bunch of dirty sinners into Heaven who are no more than robots without free will? Or does God want to raise up sons and daughters whom He glorifies and empowers with his own Divine life - including free will - to choose Him freely or reject Him freely? We did not get free will on our own; it is God's gift. If man has no free will, and is saved apart from any cooperation with grace, then the reprobate is also damned apart from any free will. This makes God the author of evil; which in my opinion is blasphemy!

Wait a sec...

..god gave men 'free will' and hopes they'll fo the right thing? But he'll take the time out to permit a small miracle like saving a baby with a deformed heart or an old lady who's mugged at gunpoint, shot but lives..

...BUT he refuses to intervene in the wholesale slaughter of millions of innocents?

WTF kind of nonsense is that?

Infact, of all the small miracles ON RECORD (from permitting a Red Sox Championship  wink .. to sparing passengers on ill-fated United DC-10 at Sioux City, Iowa) WHY are there NO WWII- size god-empowered miracles?


Mostly because 'free will' isn't what you think it is. I've heard that bogus argument 20 years ago TACA..and it sounds equally as ridiculous now!

Quoting Joness0154 (Reply 41):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 27):

That line of thought would suggest that 'God' created Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune to be perfect too! So what Galactic sin did Jupiter commit a few years back that sent a giant space rock into a violent collision (that would have obliterated the Earth) ...leaving a mark so large it could be seen from Earth. But these planets were new at some point in time and will grow old (all of them)...and die (or get obliterated) -- meaning that either they all created a sin (to die).. or none were created 'to be perfect'.... ...which is it?

Yep, you're right. They were perfect, up until man sinned and the entire universe is now susceptible to not being perfect (sin, pain, suffering, etc).

So Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus and Neptune are SCREWED because of some puny creature on earth? Kid, that's rich! I'm sorry but Jupiter alone.. carries more influence in this solar system that earth ever could. If earth disappear..the other planets wouldn'y notice a thing... if Jupiter disappeared -- we could easily be fitted to wear that banner/sash that appeared in the last scene of Jurassic Park (1)-

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
David L
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:04 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 29):
Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
people thanking God for sparing them, but isn't He repsonsible for putting you in that position in the first place?

No, because humans have free will.



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 32):
God is not a puppeteer and we are not His puppets.



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 40):
He didn't prevented that because He gave us "free will", and we decide about our own acts.

So is everything "God's will" or not? It seems to me and others that good things are God's will and bad things are our own doing.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 40):
We did not get free will on our own; it is God's gift.

Wait, if God doesn't exist, we would have free will anyway. Giving God credit for something that would happen in his absence is stretching things a bit, in my opinion.

Quoting Slider (Reply 29):
just because you don't understand the pain doesn't mean there isn't a purpose.

Nor does it means there is a purpose. The difference is that atheists/humanists, etc, don't feel the need to make up a reason.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 31):
Was He responsible [according to YOU] for the people inside the WTC back on 9/11/2001 ?



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 33):
Thus one can read Trent as saying simply that God does not predestine anyone to damnation in the same sense as he predestines people to salvation.

So he deliberately looks after some people but leaves others to some fate outwith his control? Again, good things are God's doing but bad things "aren't his fault".

Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 37):
So, assuming she was correct, God was punishing the tsunami victims because many of them aren't Christian. And that's why he allowed the atomic bombs to go off because most Japanese people aren't Christian - they're going to hell

 eyepopping  What kind of God does she believe in?

Quoting Bwest (Reply 35):
Religion versus reason is a lost battle, because at the starting point of religion lies a myth, a story, written by humans, and open to interpretation by anybody. Even if you prove something in a religion to be illogical or not correct, religion has the advantage to say "oh but, we cannot understand that because its part of gods plan" or "it's like that because god wanted it"...

 checkmark  So true.  Smile
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:05 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 42):
you just gave me my rotten unreligious[sic ???] ass a new way to commit even more blashphemy[sic]

I didn't. But YOUR free will.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
David L
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:11 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 43):
blas·phe·my /ˈblæsfəmi/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[blas-fuh-mee]

"Blasphemy! Blasphemy! They've all got it blasphemy!"

Oh, wait - that's "infamy" I'm thinking of.  duck 
 
zak
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:13 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 43):
a. an act of cursing or reviling God.



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 43):
The concept of "blasphemy" is in intimate relation with God.

why do you oppose your own posting? it doesnt say "when having an intimate relation with god"

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 43):
Since you're an atheist, why are you worry about?
What is important is your OWN answer to your OWN question. Not mine.

given the trackrecord of about every major religion and denomination, in fact the very fabric they exist on, is the assumption to be in possession of a truth superior of that of those who do not have this particular mental disorder.
inherently, this leads to an attempt to influence surroundings and subjugate them.
this is implicitly undemocractic, hence it is the right and duty of people within a society to judge those others if they end up being a threat. this of course only applies to the embracing of democratic systems, where i trace the lineage back to the enlightenment that has been a true breakthrough, away from centralized and despotist government, be it celestial or earthern, towards humans judging each other.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 43):

I simply don't have the right to judge you.

humans judge, always, its normal, i welcome people to judge my point of view and challenge it. your statement seems the overall roundhouse kick of religious people to protect themselves from reciprotal scrunity aka others judging adults who believe that in voices in their heads are divine beings and that and fairy tales are reality
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