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zak
Posts: 1926
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:50 am



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 99):

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06259a.htm

you actually expect to be taken seriously when posting links to a christian pr webpage explaining philosophy?
given that the enlightenment has basically axed the reign of christianity based despots and dictatorships in europe, the bias on this page should be rather obvious.
the selective quotations and distortions presented on that page are ridiculous and deserve no further attention.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 92):

But the moment they start making general claims, they better be prepared for other views as well.

 checkmark 

one can easily make the case that such generalized claims are practically unavoidable in religion, even implicitly part of them. this is usually being expressed by a more or less obvious claim to keeping or having a truth that is only accessible to believers and in return, enriches them with being superior in life or even just death, but always directly stating or strongly implying a superiority or better status than others.
i have yet to see a religion that claims to be wrong, the only thing you usually find is obedience to something artificial justified with a claim of divine being that is inexplicable and never visible or present to those who dont believe in it.
10=2
 
David L
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:07 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 95):
Not true at all, there's a time and place for the discussion you apparently think I anchor all my time and energy

I was taking the opportunity of our wide agreement on this subject to make a light-hearted comment about one we disagree on - that's all. Bad judgement on my part.  Sad

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 96):
You are repeating over an over the same thing. Only you. Lack of arguments ?

No, lack of an answer to the question I asked you.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 97):
May I have your opinion about this: Have You Been Baptised? (by BilgeRat Dec 2 2007 in Non Aviation) [reply 89].

A clear example of "free will".

Say what? I have absolutely no opinion on that post whatsoever. What does it have to do with whether our free will is God-given or not?

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 96):
Quoting David L (Reply 88):
So you disagree that you agreed with the notion that God is responsible for the good things we choose to do but not for the bad things that we choose to do?

Nice tongue twister.

David, please give me arguments.

Arguments for what? I asked you to explain contradictory comments that you made and I'm still waiting for an answer.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 97):
Quoting David L (Reply 88):
Ask and ye shall receive.

I'm going to take your previous phrase literally.

Um... what previous phrase? You asked me to show where you accused me of threatening you and I showed you. You will also see in that thread that I did not threaten you anywhere. Is it common practice for lawyers to make false accusations then pretend they didn't, even when shown the evidence?

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 96):
Your answer to that, after threated me

I've just shown you where you previously accused me of threatening you, which you denied, and now you're accusing me of threatening you again even though I never did.  banghead 
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:30 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 101):
I have absolutely no opinion on that post whatsoever.

I suppossed that.

Quoting David L (Reply 101):
Arguments for what?

Isn't a thread basically to expose arguments in favor or against something?

Quoting David L (Reply 101):

I've just shown you where you previously accused me of threatening you, which you denied, and now you're accusing me of threatening you again even though I never did.

And I only got sarcastic emoticons as answers.

"... If we take the attitude of free will as the dividing principle of actual grace, we must first have a grace which precedes the free determination of the will and another which follows this determination and co-operates with the will. This is the first pair of graces, preventing and co-operating grace (gratia praeveniens et cooperans). Preventing grace must, according to its physical nature consist in unfree, indeliberate vital acts of the soul; co-operating grace, on the contrary, solely in free, deliberate actions of the will. The latter assume the character of actual graces, not only because they are immediately suggested by God, but also because they may become, after the achievement of success, the principle of new salutary acts. In this manner an intense act of perfect love of God may simultaneously effect and, as it were, assure by itself the observance of the Divine commandments. The existence of preventing grace, officially determined by the Council of Trent (Sess. VI, cap. v), must be admitted with the same certainty as the facts that the illuminating grace of the intellect belongs to a faculty not free in itself and that the grace of the will must first and foremost exhibit itself in spontaneous, indeliberate, unfree emotions. This is proved by the Biblical metaphors of the reluctant hearing of the voice of God (Jer., xvii, 23; Ps. xciv, 8), of the drawing by the Father (John, vi, 44), of the knocking at the gate (Apoc., iii, 20). The Fathers of the Church bear witness to the reality of preventing grace in their very appropriate formula: "Gratia est in nobis, sed sine nobis", that is, grace as a vital act is in the soul, but as an unfree, salutary act it does not proceed from the soul, but immediately from God. Thus Augustine (De grat. et lib. arbitr., xvii 33), Gregory the Great (Moral., XVI, x), Bernard of Clairvaux (De grat. et lib. arbitr., xiv), and others. As the unfree emotion of the will are by their very nature destined to elicit free salutary acts, it is clear that preventing grace must develop into helping or co-operating grace as soon as free will gives its consent. These free salutary acts are, according to the Council of Trent (Sess. VI, cap. xvi), not only actual graces, but also meritorious actions (actus meritorii). There is just as little doubt possible regarding their existence as concerning the fact that many men freely follow the call of grace, work out their eternal salvation, and attain the beatific vision, so that the dogma of the Christian heaven proves simultaneously the reality of co-operating graces. Their principal advocate is Augustine (De grat. et lib. arbitr., xvi, 32). If the more philosophical question of the co-operation of grace and liberty be raised, it will be easily perceived that the supernatural element of the free salutary act can be only from God, its vitality only from the will. The postulated unity of the action of the will could evidently not be safeguarded, if God and the will Performed either two separate acts or mere halves of an act. It can exist only when the supernatural power of grace transforms itself into the vital strength of the will, constitutes the latter as a free faculty in actu primo by elevation to the supernatural order, and simultaneously co-operates as supernatural Divine concurrence in the performance of the real salutary act or actus secundus. This co-operation is not unlike that of God with the creature in the natural order, in which both perform together one and the same act, God as first cause (causa prima), the creature as secondary cause (causa secunda). For further particulars see St. Thomas, "Contra Gent.", III, lxx. ... "

Complete text at: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06689x.htm
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:02 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 100):
you actually expect to be taken seriously when posting links to a christian pr webpage[sic] explaining philosophy?

Of course.

They come from people dedicated to study these themes. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
scottieprecord
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:37 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 38):



Quoting David L (Reply 46):

Haha. Sorry guys, I was being quite cynical, mocking my Christian pre-school teacher's beliefs. But from my perception of Christianity, if you're not Christian you go to hell, right?

I re-set my religious beliefs about my freshman year in high school. I'm sure they'll change throughout my life, but I get pretty frustrated with my peers when they merely spout off what was told to them in their childhood. I mean, c'mon... they've established that Santa and the Easter Bunny don't exist, the Tooth Fairy, Boogie Man, and the monster in the closet as well; Yet for some reason their core beliefs are somehow out of reach of their own personal scrutiny. Blah.

I think the most profound statement I've heard regarding the process of one's religious beliefs is this:
"Religion is nothing more than a childhood illusion, outgrown with proper education and maturity."
 
David L
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:59 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 102):
Isn't a thread basically to expose arguments in favor or against something?

You made a comment and I asked you about it. I am still waiting to hear an explanation of of your contradictory beliefs that:

God gave us free will to do good and things and to do bad things

but:

God is responsible when we do good things but not when we do bad things.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 102):
And I only got sarcastic emoticons as answers.

No you did not. You got a link to the accusation which you deny making. Are you sure you're a lawyer?

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 102):
I suppossed that.

I don't understand what your point is. You know I'm an atheist so you know I believe we have free will.

Quoting Scottieprecord (Reply 104):
Haha. Sorry guys, I was being quite cynical, mocking my Christian pre-school teacher's beliefs.

No problem. I was careful to comment about your teacher, not you.  Smile
 
kmh1956
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:32 pm



Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

I don't think you're supposed to understand it. That's why they call it faith; you have to trust that He does everything for a reason.
'Somebody tell me why I'm on my own if there's a soulmate for everyone' :Natasha Bedingfield
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:43 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 105):
Are you sure you're a lawyer?

And a good one.  yes 

Quoting David L (Reply 105):
You know I'm an atheist so you know I believe we have free will.

What do you understand by that?
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:08 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 105):

No you did not. You got a link to the accusation which you deny making.

Just follow such link and this one Pope Sticks Sequined Foot In Mouth Again (by Jaysit May 15 2007 in Non Aviation) [your reply 79] Can you see the  sarcastic  emoticon that I was referring to ?
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:01 am



Quoting David L (Reply 105):
I am still waiting to hear an explanation of of your contradictory beliefs that:

God gave us free will to do good and things and to do bad things

but:

God is responsible when we do good things but not when we do bad things.

Like somebody once said around here:



"Say what? I have absolutely no opinion on that post whatsoever."



"The various interrelationships among nature, God, and the law, it seems to me, are becoming more complex and confusing in the modern world. These three concepts, all important elements in the human narrative, carry historical understandings that are being rearranged by the needs of contemporary society and by our ability to affect the world around us. It is worth exploring how science has influenced the restructuring of these interrelationships and how it might contribute to a better understanding of them.

Charles Darwin's predecessor, the geologist Sir Charles Lyell, launched a stunning revision of the world's view of how nature came to be what it is. Landforms such as mountains were thought of not as the result of some endogenous process but as punishments dealt to Earth by a Creator disappointed at the misbehavior of its inhabitants. This "catastrophist" view affected public attitudes inlays that seem remarkable today. In her notable book Mountain Gloom and Mountain Glory, the historian Marjorie Hope Nicholson traces the literary transition from mountains seen as excrescences to mountains praised as glorious nature. It is said that in the 18th and early 19th centuries, well-born ladies making the Grand Tour in Europe would pull down their window shades to avoid viewing the Alps."
...

"For the catastrophist idea, Lyell, Darwin, and their successors substituted the notion that the world is at work changing itself. Mountain building, subsidence, erosion by wind and water, floods, and earthquakes--these were the forces that have been making our landscape over millennia. The geological doctrine emphasizing such gradual changes--uniformitarianism--is accepted today even by schoolchildren, save perhaps those being taught that Earth is only 6000 years old.

Nevertheless, the law still sometimes speaks of unexpected events affecting Earth's systems as "acts of God." Of course judges and lawyers know this is nonsense; they might better be called "acts of nature" or "natural disasters." Both descriptions are useful because they distance such events from human hands, leaving no place to put human liability for the resulting damage. Earthquakes, tidal waves, landslides, floods, and wind damage occur unexpectedly and apparently randomly; nobody causes them. Thus, in insurance policies, exceptions are sometimes made for "acts of God" so that harms of this kind will be uncompensated."

...

"Contemporary science is making it difficult to sustain such distinctions, and perhaps it can do something to clarify matters. As Katrina and two other hurricanes crossed the warm Gulf of Mexico, we watched them gain dramatically in strength. Papers by Kerry Emanuel in Nature and by Peter Webster in this journal during the past year have shown that the average intensity of hurricanes has increased during the past 30 years as the oceans have gained heat from global warming. Emanuel's Web site at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (http://wind.mit.edu/~emanuel/holem/holem.html) explains the thermodynamic aspects of the relationship. The winds around the low-pressure center (the eye of the hurricane) travel across the warm surface water in a circular pattern, picking up energy. As water molecules evaporate from the surface, they contribute their energy to the storm column as they condense to form droplets, becoming sensible heat. About a third of that energy powers the hurricane's wind engine.

We know with confidence what has made the Gulf and other oceans warmer than they had been before: the emission of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases from human industrial activity, to which the United States has been a major contributor. That's a worldwide event, affecting all oceans. When Katrina hit the shore at an upgraded intensity, it encountered a wetland whose abuse had reduced its capacity to buffer the storm, and some defective levees gave way. Not only is the New Orleans damage not an act of God; it shouldn't even be called a "natural" disaster. These terms are excuses we use to let ourselves off the hook."

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/summary/311/5759/303
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:06 am

"When innocent people die due to acts of nature, it is not God, it is nature. There are laws at work that are governed by nature. Natural law is universal in scope and affects every human being. It is the natural law that dictates the movement of the seasons. So whether you pray or not, winter will always precede spring and spring summer. Whether you are good or bad, kind or evil fall will always precede winter. You do not have to remind the sun to set or rise, it just happens naturally. You can squabble all you want or blame God for the snow not being red, but it will always be white. God cannot interrupt the natural order that has already been established. If He changed just one iota of anything in the natural process, it would change everything and it would probably NOT result in our good. But He can and does act within it. We are born to die and have no say in the time or the matter in which we are to leave. Some things in life we must learn to accept. Jesus did not want to die by crucifixion, but He had to so that Scripture would be fulfilled and God’s plan for the redemption of mankind be carried out. There are some things God CANNOT do. He cannot lie, He cannot undo what He Himself has established and set in motion, He cannot impose on the will of man because from the beginning He chose to give us free will and He cannot violate His own law. If He did, He would cease to be God... "

http://ezinearticles.com/?Disasters:-Acts-of-God?&id=90730
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
BN747
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:20 am

Let's see...where's my RED marker...

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 110):
God cannot interrupt the natural order that has already been established.

He can't? Well holy hell...he must have a boss over him.. man's on global warming is currently giving 'the natural order' a helluva wallop!

Just curious...

...where's rule that says 'Once something has been established..it cannot be changed or altered?'

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 110):
If He changed just one iota of anything in the natural process, it would change everything and it would probably NOT result in our good.

Probably? Why not with 'certainty' it would not be good..or with certaintty.. it would surely be bad? Who's makin' the crap up..one of those kids on 'Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader?

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 110):
Jesus did not want to die by crucifixion,

He didn't? Wait didn't he know he was gonna rise again...or was that shocker to him? That was my biggest bone to pick with Gibson's film...Jesus crying & crap when he knows the future...this is absolute nonsense! So him dying on the cruciifix (knowing what's to come shoulda been a walk in the park) was circus act.. I mean, given all the miracles he performed 'Behold....this miracle, behold that miracale, etc..' when his moment came... he collapsed like a deck of cards. A guy who could walk on water, feed a slew people with a loaf of bread and and 2 fish..suddenly doesn't have the strength to carry his own crucifix. When they were writing this crap...the scribe 'incharge of continuity' must have been drunk and at a Roman orgy...because he sure as hell wasn't focusing on his mission-

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 110):
but He had to so that Scripture would be fulfilled and God’s plan for the redemption of mankind be carried out.

Makes about as much sense as the tooth fairy-

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 110):
There are some things God CANNOT do.

Apparently there are a billion + 1 things GOD cannot do..like keep his stories straight and consistent! MAJOR miracles being just one of them=

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 110):
He cannot lie, He cannot undo what He Himself has established and set in motion,

If he does, what penalty does he pay? Why can't he lie...what's stopping him?
He should probably give deep thought before he makes any kind of move...infact, he should just still .. and do nothing-

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 110):
He cannot impose on the will of man because from the beginning He chose to give us free will and He cannot violate His own law.

Well if man chose the other guy (who also isn't real...you know, the one who runs around with a pickfork poking people in the keester)...what happens then? Does got get mad and destroy the world? Oh wait....he can't .. because and I quote "He Himself has established and set in motion"

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 110):
If He did, He would cease to be God... "

That happened when the human scribes sat down with bread and a whole lot of wine...and wrote all this nonsense-


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
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aerorobnz
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 11:27 am

Nothing happens for any good reason except that every action/decision must have a positive or negative reaction, sometimes it goes in your favour other times it doesn't. We spend our lives creating alternative realities for ourselves about what can happen, what should happen, and what could happen, but we spend very little time on what DID happen. The human mind responds to stories, and it invents when it can't comprehend fully. Traumatic events are times when the brain compensates greatly in this respect.

The reality that it takes a series of consecutive events/factors to cause an event to occur, and not just God saved me/didn't save me.
Flown to 147 Airports in 62 Countries on 83 Operators and counting. Wanderlust is like Syphilis, once you have the itch it's too late for treatment.
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:40 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 111):
'Once something has been established..it cannot be changed or altered?'

By Him. Because is His will. Such changes are basically due to the man action [i.e. Global Warming]

Quoting BN747 (Reply 111):
Gibson's film

Or Ron Howard's da Vinci's Code? Both good source of the most pure "theology"  sarcastic 

Quoting BN747 (Reply 111):

That happened when the human scribes sat down with bread and a whole lot of wine...and wrote all this nonsense-

I agree with you after reading your post.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 109):
Nevertheless, the law still sometimes speaks of unexpected events affecting Earth's systems as "acts of God." Of course judges and lawyers know this is nonsense; they might better be called "acts of nature" or "natural disasters." Both descriptions are useful because they distance such events from human hands, leaving no place to put human liability for the resulting damage. Earthquakes, tidal waves, landslides, floods, and wind damage occur unexpectedly and apparently randomly; nobody causes them. Thus, in insurance policies, exceptions are sometimes made for "acts of God" so that harms of this kind will be uncompensated."

'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
David L
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 2:37 pm

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 107):
Quoting David L (Reply 105):
You know I'm an atheist so you know I believe we have free will.

What do you understand by that?

   I... believe... we... have... free... will. Which part don't you understand?

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 108):
Quoting David L (Reply 105):

No you did not. You got a link to the accusation which you deny making.

Just follow such link and this one Pope Sticks Sequined Foot In Mouth Again (by Jaysit May 15 2007 in Non Aviation) [your reply 79] Can you see the emoticon that I was referring to ?

Of course I see the emoticon - here's another one:   .

In that link, can you not see your accusation that I threatened you, the ridiculous claim that prompted the emoticon, the ridiculous accusation which you are still pretending you didn't make... even after looking right at it? Can you really not see the main point of the link or do you just look for excuses to avoid the issue?

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 109):


Quoting David L (Reply 105):
I am still waiting to hear an explanation of of your contradictory beliefs that:

God gave us free will to do good and things and to do bad things

but:

God is responsible when we do good things but not when we do bad things.

Like somebody once said around here:



"Say what? I have absolutely no opinion on that post whatsoever."

That doesn't even work! I have no opinion on a post made by someone else and you're comparing that to you having no interest in a post you made in this thread? Spectacular "reasoning"!

I can only assume that was a roundabout way of admitting that you didn't really mean to agree with the notion that God is responsible when we do good things but not when we do bad things.

Quoting Zak (Reply 112):
@BN747

brilliant posting

I concur.  

[Edited 2007-12-16 06:40:06]
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:03 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 114):
Which part don't you understand?

Your... definition... of... free.. will... That... part. Is a question to you. Not something that I don't understand.

Quoting David L (Reply 114):

In that link, can you not see your accusation that I threatened you, the ridiculous claim that prompted the emoticon, the ridiculous accusation which you are still pretending you didn't make...

I was not affirming anything. I remember that I was "specifically" placing a question [an unanswered one] then. Let me remind you such question at that time: "Are you threatening me?"
A simple "yes" or "no" was by answer was enough.
There is a big difference between a question and an affirmation.  sarcastic 
Many unbelievers commonly object to the God of the Bible on the basis of ethical "problems" with the character of God as revealed in the Scriptures. Whether they use psalms of imprecation, the slaughter of the Canaanites, the eternal wrath of God on the impenitent, etc ., the central theme is usually the same "Who would want to worship a God like that !" But despite the surface plausibility of the objection, a careful examination of it shows their Achilles attacking our Hector with his bare heel. Far from being the unbeliever's strongest case against the true God, this objection actually reveals the radical futility of unbelief; without God there are no ethical objections to anything .
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
NWA742
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 3:07 pm

Quoting MaverickM11 (Thread starter):
You see this every time there is a horrific event, people thanking God for sparing them, but
isn't He repsonsible for putting you in that position in the first place?

We all have free will, including the ones who seek to murder the innocent. Whether or not you believe in a superior being, you should hope that they are being punished one way or another in some realm beyond our small world.

Quoting Bok269 (Reply 4):
Ok, so you have one person making a comment that may be contradictory. Don't discount all
religion due to one group.

It's not contradictory unless you don't believe in free will, or unless you believe God is responsible for the actions of evil human beings.

Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
If he REALLY wanted the 'BEST' for all of us...then..

He would have PREVENTED

You know, this is the one thing I can't understand about atheists and many of the religious. I fully understand why each side has their views and their beliefs and lack of beliefs.

But someone, please tell me why exactly, as a human, you think you are capable of even coming close to understanding the actions/decisions/choices/etc. made by a being that is simply beyond us? Or however you want to say it...........on a different level, a higher up, whatever. We are more intelligent and more complex beings than our pets. Our pets may be completely mystified as to why we do some of the things we do, but we never see the need to explain it to them, do we? Chances are they wouldn't understand it if we tried.

What makes any of you think that you are capable of understanding anything regarding the correlation of events on this small Earth and decisions and acts made by what we define as a god?

You can ask why, you can wonder to yourself, but saying "If this religious text says this, then God would have/should have done that, otherwise it's contradictory or God doesn't exist" means one of two things:

1. That you are simply comparing a decision by God to religious beliefs, systems, or texts interpreted by humans, and you don't realize the fallacy.
2. That you put yourself on level of intelligence that no human has nor will ever possess, and you are delusional.

And yes, high numbers of atheists AND religious individuals fit right into the above answers.

When atheists poke jokes about the earth being 6000 years old, Christians may point out that whether or not those were words from the son of God, it was still being explained to humans over 2000 years ago, humans that had virtually no scientific knowledge or ability, they didn't exactly measure and percieve time the way we do today.

In this case, each side falls into #1. When staunch atheists and Bible thumpers think they can argue and understand what God should have done with regards to their own interpretations, they fall into #2.


One thing that simply irritates me is how either the religious or the atheists claim to have a more enlightened or logical approach, although I think the atheists are slightly more guilty with regards to this matter. I don't know how many times I've seen such bullshit statements that religious people can't think for themselves, they are brainwashed, etc. That's simply bullshit, and provides a true confirmation of arrogance and ignorance.

IMO, the most logical approach with regards to what we know FOR SURE with regards to God, is not atheism or religion, it's agnosticism. Simply put, as humans we don't know. NOBODY, not even the most staunch atheists or the most hardcore Bible thumpers, has it all figured out. Anybody who tells you that they are certain God exists or doesn't exist is simply full of shit. Thankfully, I haven't met a single religious person in my life that hasn't questioned his or her faith - and I bet that any religious person who tells you they never have is lying, even the Bible thumpers. I've met many atheists that have claimed to have never believed in the possiblity of any type of superior being, and I don't really believe them either.


As for me, I personally believe in God and Christ, I do believe in a higher power. My parents and family are Christian, but only my grandparents are regular church-goers. I wasn't raised to be religious, my parents are great people and they tought me right and wrong based on mostly on acts of humanity. I've only been to church a few times in my life, and usuallly when there I considered it a waste of my time. To be honest I don't really understand denomenations of Christianity - in fact I find it annoying that each group thinks they can understand the words of the son of God better than another group. Personally I believe based on my own interpretations, how more fortunate I am to be alive today (close call with death at 2), and the amazing things I've seen in this world so far at my young age.

I also believe in evil, especially evil human beings. I believe much evil exists in this world today, and is commonly underestimated. Call me paranoid, but I know I don't live in fear. Instead I choose to love, cherish, and protect all the ones I that I love to the best of my abilities.



-NWA742

[Edited 2007-12-16 07:32:02]
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
zak
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Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:02 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 113):
Both good source of the most pure "theology" sarcastic

didnt you just specify some cathlogic page about philosophy recently?
when i posted that its a crap source, you basically shrugged it off. i agree with your conclusion that mel gibson etc has nothing to do with say roman catholic teachings or theology, but you cant have it both ways.
stop posting mel gibsonesque links yourself to make a point or stop complaining, or continue being a hypocrite.
10=2
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:10 pm



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 116):

I also believe in evil, especially evil human beings. I believe much evil exists in this world today, and is commonly underestimated. Call me paranoid,

You are not paranoid. Evil exist as you said, and precisely the "free will" that you also mention, allow us to choose between "good and evil".
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:37 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 117):
when i posted that its a crap source, you basically shrugged it off.

That is your personal opinion. And I respect that. But why?
Maybe you can "enlight me" better based in your theological knowledge.

Quoting Zak (Reply 117):

didnt[sic] you just specify some cathlogic[sic] page about philosophy recently?

cathlogic"[?] What do you mean by that?
Which one?

Quoting Zak (Reply 117):
stop posting mel gibsonesque[sic] links yourself to make a point or stop complaining, or continue being a hypocrite.

A hypocrite? No. I'm a sincere" Roman Catholic.

Quoting Zak (Reply 117):
stop posting mel gibsonesque[sic] links yourself

When and where did I post a "mel gibsonesque[sic] link ?
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 4:56 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 119):
cathlogic"[?] What do you mean by that?
Which one?

catholic, a not too difficult of a typo to make out

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 119):
A hypocrite? No. I'm a sincere" Roman Catholic.

indeed, since when are the two mutually exclusive? i would say you'd have to be a hypocrite to be religious in the first place, but thats just derived from such mysterious things as reason, so it certainly wont apply to anyone on these very forums. after all, who could claim that ones fairy tale belief is more true than the other guys fairy tale, if not for hypocrisy supporting the own cause.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 119):
That is your personal opinion. And I respect that. But why?
Maybe you can "enlight me" better based in your theological knowledge.



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 119):
When and where did I post a "mel gibsonesque[sic] link ?

ok again, YOU posted a highly biased, junk link from some catholic webpage on "philosophy". now you moan about someone using mel gibson as example for roman catholic or whatever fairy tale religion.
you find the mel gibson source/movie a bad or untheological source, which i agree with by the way, yet you yourself resort to equally wrong, biased sources as reference when it suits your case.
stop being a hypocrite or stop complaining when one does as you do.
10=2
 
zak
Posts: 1926
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:06 pm



Quoting BN747 (Reply 111):
infact, he should just still .. and do nothing-

indeed, that is what he is doing right now.
cant you see it? it makes so much sense! god should be doing nothing right now, since that makes sense, ergo no account of god that is in any way verificable means that god must exist!
its the proof that we have been looking for all the time, when god does nothing, its all a smart deception for nonbelievers who make stupid conclusion that when god never shows up, he doesnt exist.
its all so genius, it seperates the believers from the stupid guillible nonbelievers who can not understands god deception, so the express to hell can be booked well in advance, reducing congestion in the heaven/hell selection camp.
10=2
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:36 pm

Quoting Zak (Reply 120):
indeed, since when are the two mutually exclusive? i would say you'd have to be a hypocrite to be religious in the first place, but thats just derived from such mysterious things as reason, so it certainly wont apply to anyone on these very forums. after all, who could claim that ones fairy tale belief is more true than the other guys fairy tale, if not for hypocrisy supporting the own cause.

Seems to be easy for an atheist to refer to others as "hypocrites".
Since I strongly don't think that such adjective apply to me, I will consider your commentary as an unfortunately mistake from you.

Quoting Zak (Reply 120):
ok again, YOU posted a highly biased, junk link from some catholic webpage[sic] on "philosophy".

Once again. Which one and why?
Once again. When and where did I post a "mel gibsonesque[sic] link ?
Once again. Can you "enlight me" better based in your theological knowledge.

Quoting Zak (Reply 120):
catholic, a not too difficult of a typo to make out

Lot of typos lately. That's the purpose of the "check spelling" button.

[Edited 2007-12-16 09:36:53]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 5:45 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 120):
ok again, YOU posted a highly biased, junk link from some catholic webpage on "philosophy". now you moan about someone using mel gibson as example for roman catholic or whatever fairy tale religion.
you find the mel gibson source/movie a bad or untheological source, which i agree with by the way, yet you yourself resort to equally wrong, biased sources as reference when it suits your case.

Indeed! That's precisely why I sometimes have to walk away from these discussions, depending on who's taking part. There's a certain type of "logic" that you just can't argue with.  biggrin 
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:06 pm

Quoting David L (Reply 123):
There's a certain type of "logic" that you just can't argue with.

Or just incapable to deal with.  sarcastic 

[Edited 2007-12-16 10:11:11]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:07 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 122):

Once again. Which one and why?
Once again. When and where did I post a "mel gibsonesque[sic] link ?
Once again. Can you "enlight me" better based in your theological knowledge.

it WOULD be found in this thread: RE: Religion And American Politics (by TACAA320 Dec 10 2007 in Non Aviation)
"Religion And American Politics"
however, all i am getting from trying to open the thread is a message confirming the quality of demand medias work:
"Sorry, the post you are trying read does not exist (could have been deleted or you followed a faulty link). Click here to return to the forum"

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 122):
Since I strongly don't think that such adjective apply to me, I will consider your commentary as an unfortunately mistake from you.



Quoting Zak (Reply 120):
so it certainly wont apply to anyone on these very forums.

next time, read my postings again.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 122):
Seems to be easy for an atheist to refer to others as "hypocrites".

i notice you dodged the point i was making  Wink
10=2
 
TACAA320
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:19 pm

Quoting Zak (Reply 125):


Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 122):

Once again. Which one and why?
Once again. When and where did I post a "mel gibsonesque[sic] link ?
Once again. Can you "enlight me" better based in your theological knowledge.

it WOULD be found in this thread:
RE: Religion And American Politics (by TACAA320 Dec 10 2007 in Non Aviation)
"Religion And American Politics"
however, all i am getting from trying to open the thread is a message confirming the quality of demand medias work:
"Sorry, the post you are trying read does not exist (could have been deleted or you followed a faulty link). Click here to return to the forum"

WOULD?

Come on. That's all? A "non existence" link? That is simply a "lack of proofs and arguments". Then all you said before against me has no grounds.

Quoting Zak (Reply 125):

next time, read my postings again.

Oh no. Thanks a lot.

Quoting Zak (Reply 125):
it WOULD be found in this thread:
RE: Religion And American Politics (by TACAA320 Dec 10 2007 in Non Aviation)
"Religion And American Politics"

Just try to prove that.

[Edited 2007-12-16 10:21:27]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:40 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 124):
Or just incapable to deal with.

No. I'm talking about a "reasoning" that's all over the place. E.g. making contradicting statements and "justifying " it by moaning about emoticons. I'm talking about supposedly "making a point" by asking someone's opinion of a comment from another thread that proves absolutely nothing. I'm talking about "proving" that God exists by quoting verbatim from a church website. I'm talking about accusations that appear out of thin air. Talk about the master of the non sequitur.  Smile

As I said, I enjoy a good debate about religion but you have a habit of steering it up blind alleys.!

Quoting Zak (Reply 125):
all i am getting from trying to open the thread is a message confirming the quality of demand medias work:
"Sorry, the post you are trying read does not exist (could have been deleted or you followed a faulty link). Click here to return to the forum"

Luckily, I was able to find my link to the earlier "threat" thread very easily based on the date of the flood of "WTF?" e-mails and IMs I received as a result.  biggrin 
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 6:51 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 125):
it WOULD be found in this thread:
RE: Religion And American Politics (by TACAA320 Dec 10 2007 in Non Aviation)
"Religion And American Politics"



Quoting David L (Reply 127):

No. I'm talking about a "reasoning" that's all over the place. E.g. making contradicting statements and "justifying " it by moaning about emoticons. I'm talking about supposedly "making a point" by asking someone's opinion of a comment from another thread that proves absolutely nothing. I'm talking about "proving" that God exists by quoting verbatim from a church website. I'm talking about accusations that appear out of thin air. Talk about the master of the non sequitur.

I perfectly know what are you talking about. No explanation is needed. We are just in the presence of "plurium interrogationum".

Quoting David L (Reply 127):
I'm talking about "proving" that God exists by quoting verbatim from a church website.

Totally unnecessary for a people with "faith" [requirement sine qua non to accept His existence].
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
David L
Posts: 8551
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:26 am

RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 7:02 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 128):
No explanation is needed. We are just in the presence of "plurium interrogationum".

So we can just post anything we like, whether it helps the discussion along or not?

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 128):

Quoting David L (Reply 127):
I'm talking about "proving" that God exists by quoting verbatim from a church website.

Totally unnecessary for a people with "faith"

So why waste bandwidth doing it?  Smile
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 8:00 pm



Quoting David L (Reply 129):
So we can just post anything we like, whether it helps the discussion along or not?



Quoting David L (Reply 129):

So why waste bandwidth doing it?

Just another reason to reaffirm that we are in the presence of a non sense "plurium interrogationum".
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:06 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 130):
Just another reason to reaffirm that we are in the presence of a non sense "plurium interrogationum".

you fail to adress the most simple questions that challenge your still unsubstantial claim of supranatural beings, you construct theories on how things work.
just accept it, faith is faith because you have to have faith in it to buy the whole tooth fairies, when you start knowing you can start talking facts.
stop pretending, with presumed facts that are nothing but more fairy tales, that there is more to it than a story that people were forced to buy in when they were kids and fail to admit that they have been conned the whole way.
10=2
 
NWA742
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:25 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 131):
just accept it, faith is faith because you have to have faith in it to buy the whole tooth fairies, when you start knowing you can start talking facts.

I hate to break this to you Zak, but your apparent certainty that religious texts are composed of nothing but fairy tales is as baseless as you deem TACAA320's certainty that they are true, only he admits and takes pride in his faith.

Try looking at the bigger picture sometime.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
BN747
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:50 pm



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 116):
Quoting BN747 (Reply 34):
If he REALLY wanted the 'BEST' for all of us...then..

He would have PREVENTED

You know, this is the one thing I can't understand about atheists and many of the religious. I fully understand why each side has their views and their beliefs and lack of beliefs.

But someone, please tell me why exactly, as a human, you think you are capable of even coming close to understanding the actions/decisions/choices/etc. made by a being that is simply beyond us? Or however you want to say it...........on a different level, a higher up, whatever. We are more intelligent and more complex beings than our pets. Our pets may be completely mystified as to why we do some of the things we do, but we never see the need to explain it to them, do we? Chances are they wouldn't understand it if we tried.

Your analogy is completely out of balance..let's level it a abit.

You say out pets don't understand the majority of this we do (if not all)

...yet why should we 'get everything that god' does...

Well god did once (twice thru Jesus) perform great miracles...

That's as if at one time..our pets did talk to us or communicated that they understood us (and like the bible it was recorded and documented). Then like god/Jesus and his miracles...suddenly the pets stopped communicating and understanding us.

..you see the difference, the pets NEVER had that documented period of doing anything so miraculous. God/Jesus do...
....there needs to be a line, verse that says "because people started to question the Lord again, he decided to hold back on any further miracles and involvement...until Revelations (or whenever)"


Then that would explain why god doesn't get involved with the 'heavy lifting' ie.. 9/11, Rwanda, Somalia, Checheya, Bosnia, Vietnam, Korea, China (Mao's campaign) WWII, Russia (Stalin's campaign), Armenia, WWI,US Civil War, Slavery in America, American Genocide , on and on and on...


Saying 'we should understand EVERYTHING he wants from us for salvation'...but there's a lot crap about him we're not suppose to understand ...(maybe) is a 'supertanker load of crap' and a enormous cop out! God's not here for the whales, deer and antelope...he's here solely for human sake (so say the authors and believers). Now that they and he have painted him into that corner -- it's far too late to invoke any 'nuances and changes in the storyline'..be cause the bible is written in stone...you can't change it or the rules now. They cast their lot.

As we as generations of people move further and further away from the dark days of being spooked by the bible (and it is on the record as well where they've used Religion/bible to 'spook your ass') and those that champion it... we now see what they've been doing ... 'do it our way or else..'

..that no longer works. The "faith, the mysticism" are the last cops outs because 'spooking' people with "hell" is no longer effective. We know there's nothing but bedrock, granite and other geological stone materials/elements below. It is almost proven that hell does not exist (at least where they say it is...) and if hell does not exist...then neither can heaven. And don't come back and try to say well 'hell could be like even in a completely different place...no, the good book tells you over and over where it is..in the bowels of the earth. Which is insanity. Which means like millions before you...you been chumped by a bunch of hocus pocus-

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
zak
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 9:57 pm



Quoting NWA742 (Reply 132):
I hate to break this to you Zak, but your apparent certainty that religious texts are composed of nothing but fairy tales

actually, no, i view most of religious accounts as source of information of the time being, or just written down casual tales or accounts told over generations, be it of allegorical nature or not. i see the genesis for example, as attempt to figure out what where how, with the means of this time. i dont see it as proof of something supernatural.
in fact, i do consider most of the allegorical elements of the bible as very progressive and positive, considering the time they were written in and the historical context.
i am a big fan of jesus myself, as contemporary revolutionary and philosopher. you could argue that he was similar to what che guevara was/is.
10=2
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Sun Dec 16, 2007 10:26 pm

Quoting Zak (Reply 131):

you fail to adress[sic] the most simple questions that challenge your still unsubstantial claim of supranatural[sic] beings, you construct theories on how things work.
just accept it, faith is faith because you have to have faith in it to buy the whole tooth fairies, when you start knowing you can start talking facts.
stop pretending, with presumed facts that are nothing but more fairy tales, that there is more to it than a story that people were forced to buy in when they were kids and fail to admit that they have been conned the whole way

I sincerely expect a whole more from you.

Quoting Zak (Reply 131):
faith is faith because you have to have faith in it to buy the whole tooth fairies,
I stopped believing in fairy tails many years ago. Things don't work like you said, "faith is faith" and "white is white", because I say so!

"Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see".

You are the one who failed not answering me [or proving me]:


Quoting Zak (Reply 120):
ok again, YOU posted a highly biased, junk link from some catholic webpage[sic] on "philosophy".

Once again. Which one and why?
Once again. When and where did I post a "mel gibsonesque[sic] link ?
Once again. Can you "enlight me" better based in your theological knowledge.



[Edited 2007-12-16 14:44:00]

[Edited 2007-12-16 14:45:26]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
bok269
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Mon Dec 17, 2007 12:58 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 95):

Because you haven't watched long enough or do not have the patience. Change takes time..and I've seen people gradually change on various subject matters. They've even jumped horses in a single thread. But this subject is a major one...people stake their very lives over it. Wars are being waged over it. No one's going to jump ship here (or admit doing so)... but a lot of people are thinking -- deeply, esp. the ones who are followers because expressed here are opinions

Fair enough. However, part of me feels that many of the anti-religion (and I don't mean that in a negative tone) people here only take into account the extremists and the ones who use religion for their own self-promotion. Believe it or not there are others out there that are actually well intentioned and do make a positive difference.

Quoting NWA742 (Reply 116):

It's not contradictory unless you don't believe in free will, or unless you believe God is responsible for the actions of evil human beings.

 confused  That wasn't the point I was trying to make. My point is that just because one person said something that may or not be consistant with popular belief, don't discount all religion.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac
 
BN747
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RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:44 am



Quoting Bok269 (Reply 136):

Fair enough. However, part of me feels that many of the anti-religion (and I don't mean that in a negative tone) people here only take into account the extremists and the ones who use religion for their own self-promotion. Believe it or not there are others out there that are actually well intentioned and do make a positive difference.

True..I know several believers who are well intentioned and DO make a positive difference! However it is the religious extremist that make (just like in the Middle East) who make the rest look bad. And those extremist are dangerous and seek to influence political power at any cost. They also manipulate the masses of 'well intentioned and make a positive difference' crowd (with many of them completely unsuspecting!). Just look at those Mega-Churches..those things are frightening..the crowd sees it as a great and mighty congregation -- I personally see it as a business enterprise that is racking up enormous wealth (at the expense of peoples desire for solace) -- then such wealth is turned to political power and influence unchecked.

BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
bok269
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Joined: Fri May 04, 2007 10:19 am

RE: I Don't Understand "the Grace Of God"

Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:14 am



Quoting BN747 (Reply 137):

True..I know several believers who are well intentioned and DO make a positive difference! However it is the religious extremist that make (just like in the Middle East) who make the rest look bad. And those extremist are dangerous and seek to influence political power at any cost. They also manipulate the masses of 'well intentioned and make a positive difference' crowd (with many of them completely unsuspecting!). Just look at those Mega-Churches..those things are frightening..the crowd sees it as a great and mighty congregation -- I personally see it as a business enterprise that is racking up enormous wealth (at the expense of peoples desire for solace) -- then such wealth is turned to political power and influence unchecked.

BN747

 checkmark  Very true.

I just wish some people here would be able to see past the extremists.
"Reality is wrong, dreams are for real." -Tupac

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