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paulc
Topic Author
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Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:31 pm

Democracy in europe died today as the eu treaty (aka the constitution) was signed.


Only the referendum in Ireland can stop this madness.
English First, British Second, european Never!
 
gkirk
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:55 pm

Very bad news.
I thought this kind of thing had been killed off with Hitler and Hussein  Sad
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Klaus
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:56 pm

Definitely.

Introducing the majority vote in most european matters and increasing the power of the directly elected European Parliament at the expense of the delegated Commission - how else could one qualify that than as the death of democracy!

[Edited 2007-12-13 07:01:29]
 
Klaus
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 2:59 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 1):
Very bad news. I thought this kind of thing had been killed off with Hitler and Hussein

I must have overlooked a progrom or ten - as well as the torture chambers of the EU secret police which would just have to exist, right?

Sometimes one is wondering whether Britain's press is any different from the soviet Pravda of earlier times when bizarre delusions like those above can arise from their "information".

[Edited 2007-12-13 07:00:31]
 
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sebolino
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:13 pm



Quoting Paulc (Thread starter):
Democracy in europe died today as the eu treaty (aka the constitution) was signed.

I hope you are trying to be funny ...
 
paulc
Topic Author
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:13 pm

Klaus,

it was not us that rejected the constitution first time around - we never got the chance to. France & Holland both said 'no' in a democratic vote yet the constitution has been recycled and presented again with only minor changes. Will France / Holland get another chance to say 'no' - i doubt it as the one thing the eu does not like is a 'no' as it interferes with the federal superstate plan and nothing but nothing can be seen to derail that particular gravy train.
English First, British Second, european Never!
 
Klaus
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:25 pm

So which provisions in the new treaty do actually justify your panicked wailing of "democracy being dead"?

The new treaty increases democracic accountability, strengthens democratic influence on decision-making processes and removes the formerly existing veto blockade in many areas.

If you and Kirkie can't respond to anything you don't like (or don't understand - it's unclear which it is) without conjuring of the end of democracy and mass-murdering dictators, it speaks a lot more to a lack of your own political maturity than to any actual problems with the topic at hand.

The new treaty is not and cannot be perfect, but without the slightest hint of a constructive idea for the future of the European Union of 27 nations it is difficult to take any criticism seriously - if there was any actual criticism among all the sobbing and tears.
 
AeroWesty
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:48 pm



Quoting Paulc (Thread starter):
Only the referendum in Ireland can stop this madness.

And that would be via ... a democratic process?
International Homo of Mystery
 
gkirk
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:02 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
If you and Kirkie can't respond to anything you don't like

We haven't been given the option to respond to anything we don't like. Much like the Poles in 1939
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
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yowza
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:05 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 9):

We haven't been given the option to respond to anything we don't like. Much like the Poles in 1939

um I think that comparison is WILDLY off base.

YOWza
 
slider
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:21 pm

Length of the US Constitution: 12 pages

Length of the EU constitution: 300 pages




It's not really a constitution of ideals as it is a legal contract. Call it what it is....an over-arching power-grab and theft of national sovereignty.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:22 pm

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 8):
We haven't been given the option to respond to anything we don't like. Much like the Poles in 1939

Dude, I'm Polish, and I can assure, that while we like to rib the Krauts on occaision, this was just inappropriate and in no way relatable to the treaty. You'd have better luck if you were protesting that pipeline in the Baltic.

I also feel the need to point out the irony of your statement...I think the anecdote of a football match between England and Poland would suffice...

English fans chant: "If it wasn't for us, you Polacks would be Krauts"
Without missing a step, the response of the Polish fans: "We're still waiting! We're still waiting!"

And don't bother pointing out your flag...England rules you Scots.  Wink

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 

[Edited 2007-12-13 08:26:30]
 
gkirk
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:46 pm



Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 11):
And don't bother pointing out your flag...England rules you Scots. Wink

 Wow!

Anyway, perhaps I'm targetting the wrong people. Gordon Brown the eejit should be held accountable.
Anyway, perhaps the Irish will vote against it, but I very much doubt it.

Ve vill all be speaking zee same langveg soon eneway.

Auf widersehen.....pet
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Klaus
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:11 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 10):
Length of the US Constitution: 12 pages

Length of the EU constitution: 300 pages

It's not really a constitution of ideals as it is a legal contract.

It is both. The European Declaration of Human Rights as at its very basis.

The European Union has not been formed from a group of people in a post-colonial void; It has been built from now twenty-seven sovereign nation states with their own respective constitutions and with highly diverse cultures reaching back through millenia - and both the member nation states and all their cultures are to be supported and protected within the EU framework.

There is plenty of reason for you to be proud of the US Constitution, but the European Union is a completely different kind of organisation than the USA and will remain fundamentally different.

Quoting Slider (Reply 10):
Call it what it is....an over-arching power-grab and theft of national sovereignty.

Especially when you don't bother to inform yourself about what it actually does.

One of its most important purposes is to transfer power away from the delegated Commission (appointed by the elected national governments) to the European Parliament and thus to the population which elects it directly.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:13 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 8):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
If you and Kirkie can't respond to anything you don't like

We haven't been given the option to respond to anything we don't like. Much like the Poles in 1939

Bullshit!

Your elected representant (the UK government) voted for the impemantation of the treaty.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
N74JW
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:16 pm

Do you think NATO will be dissolved and replaced with a 'European Armed Forces'?
rm -r *
 
Klaus
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:17 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 12):
Ve vill all be speaking zee same langveg soon eneway.

Auf widersehen

Not least because you're obviously incapable of speaking it properly we'll have to decline the offer.

Still waiting for a cohesive thought from you on the matter in any language, but of course I'm not holding my breath.
 
zak
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:17 pm



Quoting Paulc (Thread starter):
Democracy in europe died today as the eu treaty (aka the constitution) was signed.

ah dammit, these commies from the eu, strenghtening the british workforce by increasing rights for strike and unions!
i have read the legal documents that have caused uproar within the uk. having lived there, i really gotta say, let go off the empire and ww2 logic and embrace the european concept, the other choice for the uk is to continue being the u.s. lapdog in europe.
10=2
 
Klaus
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:22 pm



Quoting N74JW (Reply 15):
Do you think NATO will be dissolved and replaced with a 'European Armed Forces'?

No.

At this point, it was the Bush administration which has abandoned NATO as an effective instrument for security, not the europeans. I expect that the next US administration will attempt to repair most of the damage there as well.

Reviving NATO through strengthened transatlantic cooperation will make it much less necessary to build up a separate european organisation. That would of course be an emergency option, but that emergency is still relatively remote.
 
EWRCabincrew
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:25 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 10):
Length of the US Constitution: 12 pages

Covers 13 states when signed and a population of <4,000,000. Signed in 1787.

Quoting Slider (Reply 10):
Length of the EU constitution: 300 pages

Covers 27 countries when signed and a population estimated around 500,000,000. Signed 2007

It is a wonder the latter is even that short at 300 pages.
You can't cure stupid
 
slider
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:27 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
There is plenty of reason for you to be proud of the US Constitution, but the European Union is a completely different kind of organisation than the USA and will remain fundamentally different.

No argument. I know it's different. Good luck to ya'll with it.

But centuries of unique culture, languages and disparate peoples, not to mention thousands of years of human nature, tell me that it won’t last.

I’m not taking an unfair shot at Europe here, I love it, have my roots in France, Germany and the Czech Republic, but since you cannot unite these millions under ideals and only economics, I am skeptical as to its ultimate success, particularly when you consider the economic drag of some nations on others. To be fair, outside of the US, this is the largest experiment undertaken in modern times. I wish you well, but the Pan-European panacea is a pipe dream in all ways other than economic.

Again, no disrespect intended at all.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
Especially when you don't bother to inform yourself about what it actually does.

One of its most important purposes is to transfer power away from the delegated Commission (appointed by the elected national governments) to the European Parliament and thus to the population which elects it directly.

Kind of like the people who didn't vote for it but are getting it anyhow? How democratic!
 
zak
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:42 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 20):

Kind of like the people who didn't vote for it but are getting it anyhow? How democratic!

of course they voted for it, representative democracy is still democracy.
10=2
 
Toast
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:44 pm



Quoting Paulc (Thread starter):
Democracy in europe died today as the eu treaty (aka the constitution) was signed.




Quoting Gkirk (Reply 1):
Very bad news.
I thought this kind of thing had been killed off with Hitler and Hussein



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 12):
Ve vill all be speaking zee same langveg soon eneway.



Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
you cannot unite these millions under ideals and only economics

To all you sadly misinformed people: since you apparently can't be bothered to even try to understand how the EU works and what its ideals are, get your asses on a plane and meet me in Brussels. I'll arrange a guided visit of the institutuions you fear and loathe so much. (I'm not kidding. You can even stay at my place and drink my beer). Then, and only then - when you will have pulled your heads out of the sand of Eurosceptic Desert - will you be able to form a respectable opinion based on facts and conclusions, not knee-jerk ignorance. Sorry guys, but you sound exactly like my demented grandmother. "Don't trust the Germans, they'll never give up on their plans of world domination!"  crazy 

Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
So which provisions in the new treaty do actually justify your panicked wailing of "democracy being dead"?

I hope you're not holding your breath for an answer to that one...
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
BigOrange
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:46 pm

It's amazing how the only people on here who seem to be supportive of this are the French and Germans, i.e. the ones in the two countries that are founding members of the EEC and who seem to have been ruling the organization their way and imposing it on other countries!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:50 pm

Ugly hideous Sarkozescu will not hold a referendum this time. He would be too afraid of losing.

The European Union is not a democracy. After the signature of the now defunct Maastricht treaty it has become a bureaucracy controlled by the gnomes of Brussels, Strasbourg and Luxembourg.

I hate the E.U. Norway and Switzerland were clever not to join it and I hate the Euro too.

Quoting Paulc (Reply 5):
France & Holland both said 'no' in a democratic vote yet the constitution has been recycled and presented again with only minor changes.

There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:55 pm



Quoting BigOrange (Reply 23):
It's amazing how the only people on here who seem to be supportive of this are the French and Germans

Based on 22 posts?
No, the people who are supportive of this are those who have read the treaty, or at least know what the EU is about.

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 23):
the two countries that are founding members of the EEC

You mean the SIX countries that founded the original EEC: France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Netherlands, Luxembourg.

Quoting BigOrange (Reply 23):
and who seem to have been ruling the organization their way and imposing it on other countries!

 redflag   redflag   redflag 

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 24):
I hate the E.U. Norway and Switzerland were clever not to join it and I hate the Euro too.

Another self-proclaimed victim of the EU... Funny how reluctant they always are to share the reasons for their hates and fears...
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Gman94
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:56 pm

So if there is no powers being transferred to the European Union then there is no need for an EU Treaty or EU Parliament surely?

The oh so democratic EU has the Constitution voted down by French and Dutch voters so what do they do? Oh yeah change the name and force it through anyway. Yes Stalin and Hitler would be proud of that master stroke.

Oh and the WWII mentality is people who are for the EU Super State which is 60 year old thinking from people wanting to unite countries after the devastation of the war. What you need now is a flexibility which the bureaucratic monster that is the EU cannot provide.

I want the final say over who governs me with the British Parliament and British courts, not with people who I do not vote for in Brussels, Paris or Berlin. If you think that the power of the nation states in Europe is not going to become less and less in favour of the EU you need to get your head out of you know where.
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gkirk
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:56 pm

Things to do with my country should be decided by folk in Edinburgh, or at a push, London. But definitely not Brussels.

Can see the Tories winning the next general election very comfortably thanks to Brown.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Klaus
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:56 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
No argument. I know it's different. Good luck to ya'll with it.

Thank you.  Smile

Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
But centuries of unique culture, languages and disparate peoples, not to mention thousands of years of human nature, tell me that it won’t last.

I’m not taking an unfair shot at Europe here, I love it, have my roots in France, Germany and the Czech Republic, but since you cannot unite these millions under ideals and only economics, I am skeptical as to its ultimate success,

Ultimately we'll all be dead!

The USA is still one of the youngest nations, and it won't exist forever either. What can be done is trying to create a system with mechanisms which help solving the problems which will inevitably arise in any community; The question is if there are any better alternatives to a peaceful cooperative community.

We've already tried pretty much all the alternatives here in Europe - and none of them have been convincing. So several decades of successful and peaceful development don't look too bad for a start.

Diversity makes things more difficult, but not necessarily unstable, if handled properly.

Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
particularly when you consider the economic drag of some nations on others.

We've drawn our lessons from the Marshall Plan - it is basically institutionalized within Europe; To rousing success at best such as in Ireland, still to noticeable improvements even at worst such as in Greece. Germany is heavily paying into the EU - but at the same time we're developing and extending the market for our own products and services, which has been a highly profitable strategy even for us.

Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
To be fair, outside of the US, this is the largest experiment undertaken in modern times.

Indeed, and for a first we're not doing too badly thus far, I'd say.

Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
I wish you well, but the Pan-European panacea is a pipe dream in all ways other than economic.

Almost nobody believes that it was. Most of european politics is highly pragmatic dealing with practical problems and the necessity of finding workable compromises between diverse interests. The rare events of celebration are not the rule, they are most certainly the exception.

Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
Again, no disrespect intended at all.

No offense taken. Europe is complex on almost every level, so nobody can expect it to exist without controversy - controversy is in its genes, so to say.

Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
Kind of like the people who didn't vote for it but are getting it anyhow? How democratic!

Kind of like the people who didn't vote for Bush, but got him anyway, right?  mischievous 
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:04 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 27):
Things to do with my country should be decided by folk in Edinburgh, or at a push, London. But definitely not Brussels.

The European Parliament MPs you voted for (you did vote, didn't you?  scratchchin  ) are folk from Scotland.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 26):
want the final say over who governs me with the British Parliament and British courts, not with people who I do not vote for in Brussels, Paris or Berlin.

Why didn't you vote then?

And who exactly in Paris or Berlin is governing you?  scratchchin 
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777236ER
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:05 pm

The treaty was signed by elected politicians, giving more power to the democratically-elected European Parliament and has to be ratified by every single national legilative and executive branch in the EU. Yes, the death of democracy indeed!
Your bone's got a little machine
 
gkirk
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:09 pm



Quoting Toast (Reply 29):
The European Parliament MPs you voted for (you did vote, didn't you? scratchchin ) are folk from Scotland.

Not for the European one I didn't.
I find the idea of a parliament running Europe as stupid. The countries should be governed individually, not collectively.
But, we can't change a thing now. Very soon our streets will be crawling with Romanians, Bulgarians and other frigging immigrants/refugees from elsewhere.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:13 pm



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 30):



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 30):
The treaty was signed by elected politicians, giving more power to the democratically-elected European Parliament and has to be ratified by every single national legilative and executive branch in the EU. Yes, the death of democracy indeed!

What the Government says they'll give us a referendum on the EU Constitution but before that happens it's voted down by the French and Dutch. So the EU Constitution has it's name changed to a Treaty and Brown and his henchmen say there is no need for a referendum the Treaty is completely different to the Constitution whereas European politicians say it's 90-98% the same as the Constitution. Yes a very democratic process indeed!!!!!
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:15 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 31):
I find the idea of a parliament running Europe as stupid. The countries should be governed individually, not collectively.
But, we can't change a thing now. Very soon our streets will be crawling with Romanians, Bulgarians and other frigging immigrants/refugees from elsewhere.

Racism aside, I find the idea of thousands of years of bloody wars in Europe stupid, but it happened. That was because of the intollerance displayed by xenophobic people like you. What do you have against Romanian immigrants?
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
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RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:20 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 26):
The oh so democratic EU has the Constitution voted down by French and Dutch voters so what do they do? Oh yeah change the name and force it through anyway. Yes Stalin and Hitler would be proud of that master stroke.

Oh and the WWII mentality is people who are for the EU Super State which is 60 year old thinking from people wanting to unite countries after the devastation of the war.

I'm not sorry to inform you that Hitler and Stalin are both dead. As much as you're obviously missing them.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 26):
What you need now is a flexibility which the bureaucratic monster that is the EU cannot provide.

The new EU treaty has built in an explicit door through which every country can leave at its own discretion (it would have been possible before as well of course, just somewhat more messily). If you believe that the level of flexibility you've got is not enough, there are two alternatives:
- work for it within the EU
- use the door.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 26):
I want the final say over who governs me with the British Parliament and British courts

Then your only hope is becoming Supreme Dictator of Britain, Cromwell-style.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 26):
not with people who I do not vote for in Brussels, Paris or Berlin.

Then get your behind off the sofa and vote!

You're unbelievable!  Yeah sure

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 26):
If you think that the power of the nation states in Europe is not going to become less and less in favour of the EU you need to get your head out of you know where.

I don't see Britain with a lot of power at the feet of the US administration either. Especially not when they're kicking you in the face nevertheless and the EU still needs to bail you out (steel tariffs etc.).

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 27):
Things to do with my country should be decided by folk in Edinburgh, or at a push, London. But definitely not Brussels.

Then simply leave if you can convince your compatriots of it. Aren't you so intent on independence? It will be interesting to watch the weight of an isolated Scotland on the world stage. But at least you'd have your own UN seat. I just hope it'll be comfortable enough to compensate for the loss of both Britain's and Europe's support.
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:22 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 32):
What the Government says they'll give us a referendum on the EU Constitution but before that happens it's voted down by the French and Dutch. So the EU Constitution has it's name changed to a Treaty and Brown and his henchmen say there is no need for a referendum the Treaty is completely different to the Constitution whereas European politicians say it's 90-98% the same as the Constitution. Yes a very democratic process indeed!!!!!

So vote Labour out of power.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
gkirk
Posts: 23411
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:23 pm



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 33):
Racism aside

So more Eastern Europeans won't be on our streets?

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 33):
What do you have against Romanian immigrants?

Nothing if they're here to work. Look at the Polish immigrants, they've proven to be very hard workers.

But, If they're just here to sponge money off the government then I have a lot against them.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 33):
I find the idea of thousands of years of bloody wars in Europe stupid, but it happened.

And how likely is it to happen again? We don't need a European parliament.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 33):
xenophobic people like you.

Now, resorting to the personal insults as always.  Yeah sure
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:24 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 31):
Not for the European one I didn't.

If you willingly eliminated yourself from the decision process, how can you complain about somebody's will being imposed on you?

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 31):
I find the idea of a parliament running Europe as stupid. The countries should be governed individually

They are. The EU is there to coordinate efforts and create a large zone of prosperity and stability. It's thanks to the EU that you can travel wherever you want and LIVE and WORK and STUDY wherever you want in 27 countries, and your freedoms and rights are intact wherever you go. You may prefer to keep shagging your sheep on a patch of heather (  Wink ), but believe me millions of more dynamic and less fearful/xenophobic people have seized the gigantic opportunities offered by the EU, and it's sad to see you're oblivious to them.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 31):
Very soon our streets will be crawling with Romanians, Bulgarians and other frigging immigrants/refugees from elsewhere.

Like they crawled with all that Indian and Paki vermin that the EU sent to torment you years before. Oh, wait...  Yeah sure
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zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:24 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
since you cannot unite these millions under ideals and only economics, I am skeptical as to its ultimate success,

in varietate concordia!

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 31):
I find the idea of a parliament running Europe as stupid. The countries should be governed individually, not collectively.
But, we can't change a thing now. Very soon our streets will be crawling with Romanians, Bulgarians and other frigging immigrants/refugees from elsewhere.

so, mr staunch democrat, why dont you use that very democratic system to start a populist right wing movement against immigrants and whatever? such movements exist in most major cities in europe, and quite frankly, never make it over low single digit %.
your understanding of democracy is perfectly in line with your xenophobic views. you support democracy when it would suit you, but rebuke it when it actually puts your idea to the fringe of the political spectrum.
10=2
 
gkirk
Posts: 23411
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:26 pm

Tell you what though, I love these threads. Always full of humour  Wink
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:28 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 36):
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 33):
What do you have against Romanian immigrants?

Nothing if they're here to work. Look at the Polish immigrants, they've proven to be very hard workers.

But, If they're just here to sponge money off the government then I have a lot against them.

Why would Romanians sponge of governments more than Brits?

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 36):
Quoting 777236ER (Reply 33):
I find the idea of thousands of years of bloody wars in Europe stupid, but it happened.

And how likely is it to happen again? We don't need a European parliament.

With the attitudes towards foreigners that people like you display, it's clearly possible.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:32 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
Quoting Gman94 (Reply 26):
not with people who I do not vote for in Brussels, Paris or Berlin.

Then get your behind off the sofa and vote!

Oh so I can vote in French and German elections can I? As it's Merkel and Sarkozy that call all the shots in the EU.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
Quoting Gman94 (Reply 26):
If you think that the power of the nation states in Europe is not going to become less and less in favour of the EU you need to get your head out of you know where.

I don't see Britain with a lot of power at the feet of the US administration either. Especially not when they're kicking you in the face nevertheless and the EU still needs to bail you out (steel tariffs etc.).

It doesn't matter how much power you have and so long as it is your power and not given over to a bureaucratic monster that is trying to please 27 member states. I want the power to be with the British Parliament who can govern for the benefit of the British people and not with the EU who doesn't give a stuff about the UK except getting their corrupt hands on our money.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 35):
Quoting Gman94 (Reply 32):
What the Government says they'll give us a referendum on the EU Constitution but before that happens it's voted down by the French and Dutch. So the EU Constitution has it's name changed to a Treaty and Brown and his henchmen say there is no need for a referendum the Treaty is completely different to the Constitution whereas European politicians say it's 90-98% the same as the Constitution. Yes a very democratic process indeed!!!!!

So vote Labour out of power.

Well he hasn't got the balls to call an election either so that won't be happening before he has signed away more or our Parliament's powers.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:36 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 41):
Well he hasn't got the balls to call an election either so that won't be happening before he has signed away more or our Parliament's powers.

The majority of elected MPs will likely vote this through Parliament, that's the way our democratic system works.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:38 pm



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 42):
uoting Gman94 (Reply 41):
Well he hasn't got the balls to call an election either so that won't be happening before he has signed away more or our Parliament's powers.

The majority of elected MPs will likely vote this through Parliament, that's the way our democratic system works.

Yeah because the Party whips tell them they must toe the party line, again very democratic.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
MadameConcorde
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:38 pm

We hold the right to think different from you.  Big grin

Quoting Toast (Reply 25):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 24):
I hate the E.U. Norway and Switzerland were clever not to join it and I hate the Euro too.

Another self-proclaimed victim of the EU... Funny how reluctant they always are to share the reasons for their hates and fears...

There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:38 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 41):
it's Merkel and Sarkozy that call all the shots in the EU.

 redflag   redflag   redflag 

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 41):
the EU who doesn't give a stuff about the UK except getting their corrupt hands on our money.

Yep. I feel for you - you've been held at gunpoint for 34 years and told to surrender your money and your sovereignty. Tragic, indeed.  Yeah sure
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:40 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 43):
Yeah because the Party whips tell them they must toe the party line, again very democratic.

So vote them out of office.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
rammstein
Posts: 697
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:05 pm

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:41 pm



Quoting Paulc (Thread starter):
Democracy in europe died today as the eu treaty (aka the constitution) was signed.

I might suggest to British people a democratic vote to pull UK out of EU, all this EU whining and bashing is getting tiring and repetitive.
He who wishes to be rich in a day will be hanged in a day. --Leonardo Da Vinci
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:43 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 39):
Tell you what though, I love these threads. Always full of humour

Your posts are more like a portal through time into a past that has brought us (and especially you) little but wars and misery. You need to leave your pre-war time capsule and smell a bit of fresh air!
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:45 pm



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 46):
Quoting Gman94 (Reply 43):
Yeah because the Party whips tell them they must toe the party line, again very democratic.

So vote them out of office.

Sorry when is this election taking place? Oh yeah no balls Brown bottled it. So our first chance to vote will be after the damage has been done and going against the referendum they said they would call because the Treaty is completely different to the Constitution, which is an outright lie.
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