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Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:48 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 48):


Quoting Gkirk (Reply 39):
Tell you what though, I love these threads. Always full of humour

Your posts are more like a portal through time into a past that has brought us (and especially you) little but wars and misery. You need to leave your pre-war time capsule and smell a bit of fresh air!

Dissent is not tolerated in the EU, if you do dissent you will be belittled. Very 1984 of you Klaus.  banghead 
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
777236ER
Posts: 12213
Joined: Sat Aug 18, 2001 7:10 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:51 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 49):

Sorry when is this election taking place? Oh yeah no balls Brown bottled it. So our first chance to vote will be after the damage has been done and going against the referendum they said they would call because the Treaty is completely different to the Constitution, which is an outright lie.

Brown bottled what? There's no legal requirement for an election yet, the population knew that when they voted for Labour. In three years there'll be an election. If Labour lie, remove them from office.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:59 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 50):
Dissent is not tolerated in the EU, if you do dissent you will be belittled. Very 1984 of you Klaus.

I'm so horribly oppressing you... especially considering the erudite and respectful treatment you and Kirkie are giving to everybody else...!  crazy 

Read up on Europe's history (especially including the one after WWII!).

And please, grow a pair.
 
Pope
Posts: 3995
Joined: Thu Mar 24, 2005 5:57 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:02 pm

Dear EU citizens,

Get ready for your taxes to go up yet again to fund this ever increasing level of bureacracy.
Hypocrisy. It's the new black for liberals.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23411
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:03 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 53):
I'm so horribly oppressing you... especially considering the erudite and respectful treatment you and Kirkie are giving to everybody else...! crazy

We aren't going around throwing personal insults that you and other EU supporters seem to be  Wink

Now, we shall agree to disagree, shall we?
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:10 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 41):
Oh so I can vote in French and German elections can I?

indeed, you can, just like germans and french can vote in the uk if they register their residence there.

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 43):
Yeah because the Party whips tell them they must toe the party line, again very democratic.

you seem to have little faith in the very proven, centuries old system that your country has. i do not understand how your issues with the election process of representatives of the uk citizens is a problem of the e.u.

Quoting Pope (Reply 54):
Dear EU citizens,

Get ready for your taxes to go up yet again to fund this ever increasing level of bureacracy.

taxes are not bad, the always tax cuts line so prominent in u.s. populist election campaigns dont work well over here.
a sound fiscal policy is needed, there is often no correlation between that and tax cuts.
one could argue that tax excemption for the poor, tax balance or cuts for the middle class and increased taxation for people making over 100k and then even more over 500k a year is needed.
10=2
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:11 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 53):
I'm so horribly oppressing you... especially considering the erudite and respectful treatment you and Kirkie are giving to everybody else...! crazy

Read up on Europe's history (especially including the one after WWII!).

And please, grow a pair.

Eh? I haven't belittled anyone except my reaction to you and your usual looking down on people who do not conform to your viewpoint on the EU. Prior to then I only gave my opinions on the EU.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 51):
Quoting Gman94 (Reply 49):

Sorry when is this election taking place? Oh yeah no balls Brown bottled it. So our first chance to vote will be after the damage has been done and going against the referendum they said they would call because the Treaty is completely different to the Constitution, which is an outright lie.

Brown bottled what? There's no legal requirement for an election yet, the population knew that when they voted for Labour. In three years there'll be an election. If Labour lie, remove them from office.

Yes I understand that, I don't need a lecture on the UK Parliamentary cycle. That does not excuse the fact that we were promised a referendum on the Constitution and now all that's happened is that they've changed the name and no referendum is needed know. So but that is downright out of order.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:31 pm

Quoting Pope (Reply 54):
Dear EU citizens,
Get ready for your taxes to go up yet again to fund this ever increasing level of bureacracy.

Before parroting this kind of nonsense, you should at least marginally inform yourself.

What do you think, how large is the EU bureaucracy you're talking about?

a) Like that of a larger city?

b) Like that of the average nation state?

c) Ten times the average nation state?

You've obviously been saying "c)", because across 27 countries, nothing below that would make a noticeable dent in anybody's taxes.

So is "c)" your last word?

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 55):
We aren't going around throwing personal insults that you and other EU supporters seem to be

I beg your pardon? You and Paulc started out by accusing any pro-european to abolishing democracy, acting like Hitler and Stalin and on top of that you're accusing others of insulting you???

You're really a piece of work!

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 55):
Now, we shall agree to disagree, shall we?

You'd have had to present any actual arguments instead of just unbridled xenophobic propaganda to allow for something at least close to "disagreement".

[Edited 2007-12-13 11:33:11]
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:38 pm



Quoting Gman94 (Reply 57):
Eh? I haven't belittled anyone except my reaction to you and your usual looking down on people who do not conform to your viewpoint on the EU. Prior to then I only gave my opinions on the EU.

After this disgusting failure of judgment...

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 26):
The oh so democratic EU has the Constitution voted down by French and Dutch voters so what do they do? Oh yeah change the name and force it through anyway. Yes Stalin and Hitler would be proud of that master stroke.

...you're really not in any position to complain.
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 7:56 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 59):

After this disgusting failure of judgment...

Quoting Gman94 (Reply 26):
The oh so democratic EU has the Constitution voted down by French and Dutch voters so what do they do? Oh yeah change the name and force it through anyway. Yes Stalin and Hitler would be proud of that master stroke.

...you're really not in any position to complain.

Talk about over reaction of the century. That wasn't aimed at anyone, it was only my opinion of the undemocratic nature of EU institution's. I'm done with this thread you intolerance of other peoples viewpoints and over sensitivity is tiresome.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
GDB
Posts: 13615
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 6:25 pm

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:01 pm

Equating the further move for European co-operation with WW2 is rather offensive and really says a lot about the knowledge of the subject being debated, by those who cite this.
Guess what, that tabloid shit you get this crap from, are organisations owned by those who unlike you, pay little or no UK tax, who fear an EU directive on preventing media moguls building up excessive monopolies, who hate the idea of not being able to shit on working people as often as they please.
Go on then, lap it up, but it ain't the EU who is ever likely to screw you over.
It's the same reasons as so called 'faith based' politicos in the US bang on about what goes on in adults bedrooms, heaven forbid real issues like health get centre stage!

There is a lot wrong with the EU, the stuff we don't like is there in part because guess who was not at the table planning what became the EU at the start?

We never should have had a referendum in 1975, we are a Parliamentary Democracy , in which referendums are not a part.
It only happened since Harold Wilson's government then, was seriously split on being in the EEC as it was, with the far left being the objectors mostly, (the far right too, funny how extremists are the most opposed).

Brown's semi detached appearance today was a disgrace, he really cannot do political 'mood music' can he?
Pissing off people he needs in areas where he wants EU reform.

If there is a trade dispute with the US, (or anyone else), the UK has it's leverage via the EU, strength in numbers.
Alone, no one would give a toss.
Why do many so opposed give NATO a pass? After all, joining that in 1949 was an admission that the UK could not alone defend itself against back then, a Soviet attack, now that is a dilution of sovereignty.

The world we live in is more interconnected then ever, in finance/economy issues, communications, in security, in tackling environmental threats.
This is a site about one way the world has got smaller, airliners, for heavens sake!

If some are so insecure in who they are, where they come from, there might be better targets than the EU to vent these feelings.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23411
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:07 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 58):
I beg your pardon? You and Paulc started out by accusing any pro-european to abolishing democracy, acting like Hitler and Stalin and on top of that you're accusing others of insulting you???

You're really a piece of work!

I accused the EU, I did not personally accuse you of that.
You owe me an apology I believe. I don't expect one to come from you though  Yeah sure

Anyway, blah de blah, I'll get back to my book.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
gkirk
Posts: 23411
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:07 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 58):
I beg your pardon? You and Paulc started out by accusing any pro-european to abolishing democracy, acting like Hitler and Stalin and on top of that you're accusing others of insulting you???

You're really a piece of work!

I accused the EU, I did not personally accuse you of that.
You owe me an apology I believe. I don't expect one to come from you though  Yeah sure

Anyway, blah de blah, I'll get back to my book.
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:07 pm

GDB, excellent post, as usual.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:11 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 62):
I accused the EU, I did not personally accuse you of that.
You owe me an apology I believe. I don't expect one to come from you though

You identified the peaceful cooperation within Europe with a bloody conquest and with two mass-murdering regimes. If that isn't a punch in the face of every european I don't see what is.

If you think you've even earned any merit points for this kind of unprovoked attack you're beyond help.

Quoting Gkirk (Reply 62):
Anyway, blah de blah, I'll get back to my book.

I'd recommend a few more good history books and fewer tabloids and comics.
 
gkirk
Posts: 23411
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:15 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 65):
You identified the peaceful cooperation within Europe with a bloody conquest and with two mass-murdering regimes. If that isn't a punch in the face of every european I don't see what is.

If you think you've even earned any merit points for this kind of unprovoked attack you're beyond help.

 banghead  banghead 
You've seriously lost the plot.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 65):
I'd recommend a few more good history books and fewer tabloids and comics.

Yet more insults  Yeah sure
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:41 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 66):
You've seriously lost the plot.

Seriously, what exactly were you thinking when you paraded out the rotting corpses of Hitler and Stalin as witnesses for your view of the peacefully united Europe?

That everybody would find it exceedingly funny?

That people would just eagerly nod and sweep minor technical differences like tens of millions of victims vs. zero and violent oppression vs. guaranteed human and civil rights just under the rug, agreeing with your comparison anyway?

You know, those people who died under Hitler and Stalin were actual, real human beings. Not just numbers one can use as cannon-fodder in a political debate. And the extent of those atrocities was a major motivation to prevent exactly that from happening again by creating a unified Europe instead of a constantly fighting one.

What was going on in your head?
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:02 pm



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 68):
The views that Hitler had for controlling all of Europe, are the same as the current EU, although the EU are doing it in a much more peaceful manner, but their ideas are basically the same. The same for Saddams vision of controlling the whole of the middle east.

For the record: You are equating the European Union of democratic nations, based on guaranteed human and civil rights with regimes which deliberately started military conquests, brutally oppressed the conquered nations, deliberately killed millions of people for who they were or what they believed.

That is the comparison you are making. Please look it straight in the eyes if you dare.

Now take a step back and ask yourself how anybody could react to this view of yours, especially anybody who has suffered under those regimes or has lost family members to them and is now living in the European Union.

Now imagine explaining your view to them and asking for their endorsement.
 
express1
Posts: 847
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:08 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:12 pm



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 51):
If Labour lie, remove them from office.

Hang on, i think you find that all Government parties lie/bullshit that's what they get paid for,we can never get a MP that can run this country,promis after promises,then when they get voted in to be a MP at No 10,then those promises turn to bullshit everytime. Hence the reason why i have never voted,and never will, and please dont give me that crap about, "well if you don't vote you got know say in how this country is run, that's another bullshit. Its about time the Goverment understood why those who don't vote and bloody listern to the reasons why.

ok rant over
 wave 

dave

ps


If Labour lie, remove them from office, all parties lie,so remove them all from office!!!!
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
wingnut767
Posts: 762
Joined: Wed Nov 22, 2006 7:50 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:21 pm

It sure is nice to sit on the sidelines and watch you Euro's tear each other up for a change. I have been to Europe often and what I am afraid of most is the individualality of each country slowly disapearing. And I see the EU and the mass immigration chaning that. Don't kill me if you think I am wrong. It is just my opinion.
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:35 pm



Quoting Express1 (Reply 68):
Hang on, i think you find that all Government parties lie/bullshit that's what they get paid for,we can never get a MP that can run this country,promis after promises,then when they get voted in to be a MP at No 10,then those promises turn to bullshit everytime. Hence the reason why i have never voted,and never will, and please dont give me that crap about, "well if you don't vote you got know say in how this country is run, that's another bullshit. Its about time the Goverment understood why those who don't vote and bloody listern to the reasons why.

I'm relatively certain that you're not telling the "truth" as you know it either, in 100% of the cases - you omit, embellish, sometimes even lie to serve your or other people's aims and purposes. (Pardon me if I should just have happened to stumble on an actual saint after all.)

Now does that make you a criminal who should immediately be sacked and thrown into jail - or can other people still rely on you doing generally the right thing in your job and in your life?

Same thing with politicians - there are substantial differences in the paths they will take their constituency on. Do they embellish the extent to which they can overcome factually existing problems and limitations? You bet - almost all of them do. Will at least many of them at least work towards the ends they've promised to their electorate? I think that assumption is fair to make.

People tend to overestimate the freedom of decision politicians actually have, and politicians tend to ride that overestimation to their respective victories; After that the real-life achievements are usually much more difficult to attain than the promises made before, but it is clear that for instance the Thatcher government and the Blair one did in fact differ substantially, as did Kohl and Schröder over here (in different ways).

Claiming that "They're all liars anyway!" and not bothering to participate in your community or your country at all looks a lot like a cop-out to me.

(Almost) nobody's life is all fun and games. Sometimes you simply need to tough it out. And politics is just one area of life that's difficult and inconvenient but still necessary.

As is your participation, even when you're not getting the quality of politicians you think you deserve.
 
express1
Posts: 847
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:08 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:44 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 70):

sorry not convinced

dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:47 pm

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 69):
I have been to Europe often and what I am afraid of most is the individualality of each country slowly disapearing.

That fear is unfounded. European cultures have always interacted and influenced each other to varying degrees and they continue to do that, but they have still remained clearly distinct. Even within the same countries there are often multiple different cultures.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 69):
And I see the EU and the mass immigration chaning that.

Europe is just as much confronted with increasing globalization as every other region, and a European Union with substantial cultural support programs actually helps preserving national and regional peculiarities better than many nation states could on their own when alone on the world stage without any such support.

External cultural pressure from the US media industry, for instance, is much more a homogenizing influence than any intra-european one.

But you certainly need to realize one thing: Europe is not a picturesque Disneyland in which time stood still and always will. It is a continent that's always intermingled, often interacted with the rest of the world and which has always changed and progressed (or sometimes regressed).

I can't visit the USA of JFK any more, and you can't visit the Europe of Charles de Gaulle or Konrad Adenauer. That's just life.

[Edited 2007-12-13 13:51:34]
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:49 pm



Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 69):
I am afraid of most is the individualality of each country slowly disapearing.

Most of the individuality of the countries in the world is disappearing. What's the difference between Hawaii and Tobago nowadays (besides the flags?).

Quoting Paulc (Thread starter):



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 8):

You Britons ....  Silly ... soaring ahead to the 19th century ....
I support the right to arm bears
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:50 pm



Quoting Express1 (Reply 71):
sorry not convinced

Okay; As far as I'm aware you've got no compulsory voting anyway. But I would really urge you to look at politics realistically and temper your (probably justified) frustration with the also realistic assessment that there will always be decisions which could at least use a nudge from you in the direction which you think is better (if not best).
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:51 pm



Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 69):
what I am afraid of most is the individualality of each country slowly disapearing.

If by individuality you mean parts of the legal system, your fear may be justified. But otherwise, how is the EU affecting any country's individuality?

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 69):
mass immigration

Has been around for at least a century. Our ancestors though too that the millions of Italian and Polish miners coming to work in France and Belgium would destroy their homeland's individuality and bastardise its traditions.

Quoting Wingnut767 (Reply 69):
Don't kill me if you think I am wrong.

The EU is proud to be a death penalty-free zone.  Smile
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 4:36 pm

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:54 pm



Quoting NoUFO (Reply 73):
What's the difference between Hawaii and Tobago nowadays (besides the flags?).

About 350,000 Japanese bridal couples  Smile (and that's just on the front steps of the Sheraton)
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
express1
Posts: 847
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:08 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:58 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 70):
Claiming that "They're all liars anyway!" and not bothering to participate in your community or your country at all looks a lot like a cop-out to me.

Cop-out my arse,i know what i'm talking about even if you don't.

dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:11 pm



Quoting Express1 (Reply 77):
Cop-out my arse,i know what i'm talking about even if you don't.

Well, excuse me, but never, ever voting in any election on any level doesn't look like a good idea to me, so at least talking about it shouldn't be a total waste.

But of course, suit yourself.
 
sbworcs
Posts: 813
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:19 pm

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:57 pm

I think the main problem here in the UK is that the Eurosceptics shout much louder than the pro europeans. The newspapers are virtually all against anythjing to do with Europe so the people of the UK get a very biased version of what it is actuall all about.

I am for the EU and think that the closer ties we have with our neighbours the better. We cannot let past prejudices and a biased press make the decisions for us. Find out as much as you can and make an informed choice!!!
The best way forwards is upwards!
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:12 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 57):


Quoting Pope,reply=54:
Dear EU citizens,
Get ready for your taxes to go up yet again to fund this ever increasing level of bureacracy.

Before parroting this kind of nonsense, you should at least marginally inform yourself.

What do you think, how large is the EU bureaucracy you're talking about?

a) Like that of a larger city?

b) Like that of the average nation state?

c) Ten times the average nation state?

You've obviously been saying "c)", because across 27 countries, nothing below that would make a noticeable dent in anybody's taxes.

So is "c)" your last word?

Before the suspense is giving anyone a heart attack, the actual true answer is "a)". The big, bad, horribly expensive EU bureaucracy is merely about as big as a good-sized city administration. That's it. Not more than that.

For the administration of the common affairs of half a billion people over an entire continent across twenty-seven nations with many different languages that is downright cheap.

Not that improvements might be impossible, but if we've got things in urgent need to get fixed, this ain't it.
 
Toast
Posts: 1249
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 4:04 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:19 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
The big, bad, horribly expensive EU bureaucracy is merely about as big as a good-sized city administration.

True. The EU has as about as many civil servants on its payroll as a single large city. And its maintaining costs peanuts to the European citizen compared to any national bureaucracy.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
Not that improvements might be impossible, but if we've got things in urgent need to get fixed, this ain't it.

 checkmark 
Shit Piss Fuck Cunt Cocksucker Motherfucker Tits
 
vc10
Posts: 1429
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:25 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 80):
Before the suspense is giving anyone a heart attack, the actual true answer is "a)". The big, bad, horribly expensive EU bureaucracy is merely about as big as a good-sized city administration. That's it. Not more than that.

Yes I was quite surprised to learn that, about the same budget as say Paris or London, and you will probably tell me that I am wrong , but have not the Auditors refused to accept the EU budget now for many, many years, it makes it difficult to accept any figures.

Now is this the modern Europe or the French German version of Europe . What happened to the other parts of Europe when you thought of writing this

Quoting Klaus (Reply 72):
I can't visit the USA of JFK any more, and you can't visit the Europe of Charles de Gaulle or Konrad Adenauer. That's just life.

littlevc10
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:36 pm



Quoting Vc10 (Reply 82):
and you will probably tell me that I am wrong , but have not the Auditors refused to accept the EU budget now for many, many years, it makes it difficult to accept any figures.

I don't know anything about that. Do you have some more information?

Quoting Vc10 (Reply 82):
Now is this the modern Europe or the French German version of Europe . What happened to the other parts of Europe when you thought of writing this

de Gaulle and Adenauer were just the first names I came across that might meet some recollection. Germany and France were in fact the main drivers of the community in the early years (as well), even though they weren't in it alone, of course.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:39 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
and removes the formerly existing veto blockade in many areas.

So that the politicians can ignore minority opinions?

Quoting Slider (Reply 10):
It's not really a constitution of ideals as it is a legal contract. Call it what it is....an over-arching power-grab and theft of national sovereignty.

The change from a constitution to a treaty is an end run around the electorate and they ought to be pissed if they voted against it in the first place. They didn't elect their government to give away their sovereignty.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 14):
Your elected representant (the UK government) voted for the impemantation of the treaty.

Wow....you're correct and they should be made to pay at the next election. They couldn't win a public vote on it so they changed the rules.

Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 19):
Covers 13 states when signed and a population of <4,000,000. Signed in 1787.

Yeah, but it's lasted a very long time with incredible growth in the population and only 27 amendments. Or is it 28...I forget.  Wink

Quoting Toast (Reply 37):
If you willingly eliminated yourself from the decision process, how can you complain about somebody's will being imposed on you?

Not if the government took the process out of the hands of the electorate.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
NoUFO
Posts: 7397
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2001 7:40 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:52 am



Quoting Toast (Reply 81):
The EU has as about as many civil servants on its payroll as a single large city.

Nonetheless, I do like this caricature:

http://www.sakurai-cartoons.de/cart_ord.php3?gross=2126

The text in the bubble reads:

"Listen ... listen you people of Europe:
Here comes the EU High Commissioner
for the reduction of bureaucracy and dispensable trumpery,
His Excellency Dr. Stoiber"

 bigthumbsup 
I support the right to arm bears
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:03 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 28):
Quoting Slider (Reply 20):
Kind of like the people who didn't vote for it but are getting it anyhow? How democratic!

Kind of like the people who didn't vote for Bush, but got him anyway, right?

The difference is, of course, is that when you vote for a U.S. President, he or she is only in power for four years at a time. So the people who supported the losing candidate get another chance to elect their candidate. I doubt very much that people in Europe who oppose this Constitution will get a second chance.

Oh well, it's your continent, and as others have noted, I wish you all well.

Question - if this version of the Constitution is ratified by the national parliaments, can we look forward to the individual European states giving up their seats as sovereign nations at the UN and in other international fora? After all, if "the bloc will be given a single legal personality to strengthen its negotiating power," why should individual European countries be able to maintain those seats? http://europa.eu/rapid/pressReleases...&aged=0&language=EN&guiLanguage=en

Just think about all those embassy properties that would be available worldwide.  Wink
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
travelin man
Posts: 3238
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2000 10:04 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:20 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 18):
At this point, it was the Bush administration which has abandoned NATO as an effective instrument for security, not the europeans. I expect that the next US administration will attempt to repair most of the damage there as well.



Quoting Klaus (Reply 28):
Kind of like the people who didn't vote for Bush, but got him anyway, right?



Quoting Klaus (Reply 34):
I don't see Britain with a lot of power at the feet of the US administration either. Especially not when they're kicking you in the face nevertheless and the EU still needs to bail you out (steel tariffs etc.).



Quoting Klaus (Reply 72):
External cultural pressure from the US media industry, for instance, is much more a homogenizing influence than any intra-european one.

Klaus, I've read your posts for quite a while now, but it still strikes me as funny how many times you bring up the US when discussing the European Union.

Your references to the US are almost always cast in a negative light. Do you realize how much your dislike of the US colors what you write? I'm just curious.

Maybe you are just using the UK's relationship with the US as a "you're either with us or with them" argument. I can't really tell. But it would appear you have no love lost for the US.

I can also tell that you are eloquent with the English language (moreso than most English speaking natives), so kudos.
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:29 am



Quoting DL021 (Reply 84):
Quoting Klaus (Reply 6):
and removes the formerly existing veto blockade in many areas.

So that the politicians can ignore minority opinions?

That is generally part of the operating principle of democracy. Universal vetoes are restricted to the most essential issues for a reason - such as life or death for individuals (at least in Europe) and peace or war for EU member nations.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 85):
Nonetheless, I do like this caricature:

An appropriate expression of the irony of the situation, indeed! Big grin

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 86):
The difference is, of course, is that when you vote for a U.S. President, he or she is only in power for four years at a time. So the people who supported the losing candidate get another chance to elect their candidate. I doubt very much that people in Europe who oppose this Constitution will get a second chance.

I'm sure that most of them can live with guaranteed civil and human rights and a strengthened role for the directly elected European Parliament. US citizens have to live with much more draconian permanent changes in some cases - such as being killed by their own government. I think on balance we're better off.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 86):
Question - if this version of the Constitution is ratified by the national parliaments, can we look forward to the individual European states giving up their seats as sovereign nations at the UN and in other international fora?

The EU is very different from the USA. The USA does not consist of sovereign nation states with separate armies and foreign relations. The EU does.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 1:57 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 88):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 86):
The difference is, of course, is that when you vote for a U.S. President, he or she is only in power for four years at a time. So the people who supported the losing candidate get another chance to elect their candidate. I doubt very much that people in Europe who oppose this Constitution will get a second chance.

I'm sure that most of them can live with guaranteed civil and human rights and a strengthened role for the directly elected European Parliament. US citizens have to live with much more draconian permanent changes in some cases - such as being killed by their own government. I think on balance we're better off.

You may very well be better off, and if you are, thats great. I just think you ought to admit that your attempt to pass off the disenfranchisement of the opponents of the EU Constitution by equating them to supporters of a losing presidential candidate was more than lame.

Of course, your whole attitude seems very Hillary-like - "we going to take things away from you for the common good."  Smile

Quoting Klaus (Reply 88):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 86):
Question - if this version of the Constitution is ratified by the national parliaments, can we look forward to the individual European states giving up their seats as sovereign nations at the UN and in other international fora?

The EU is very different from the USA. The USA does not consist of sovereign nation states with separate armies and foreign relations. The EU does.

According to the statement I linked to, the EU will be speaking with one voice through a "single legal personality to strengthen its negotiating power" in international fora. How can individual european states maintain the facade of soveriegnty in international affairs when they cannot exercise that sovereignty on an individual basis?

It's only because each state will maintain it's own armed forces?

Switching gears to the NATO matter, it seems to me that one of the benefits of the EU Constitution and greater European integration ought to be a fundamental reexamination of NATO. While I am not suggesting that the US adopt an isolationist stance, isn't it logical to expect a united Europe will be more capable of its own defense?

Specifically, I really think it is time for the US to reduce its military footprint in Europe - and elsewhere around the world.

We can remain as treaty partners with Europe minus the expense of maintaining US garrisons.

And a side benefit to Europe - less American culture to put up with!  biggrin 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:03 am



Quoting Travelin man (Reply 87):
Klaus, I've read your posts for quite a while now, but it still strikes me as funny how many times you bring up the US when discussing the European Union.

All of four times among the substantial number of points presented even just in this thread? At the substantial direct or indirect influence the USA has over here, that is actually even an under-representation.

And let's see:

1) Reply 18: The situation of NATO is indeed dominated by the attitude of the respective US administration. It's simply a fact of life. And after 9-11 it was actually the europeans who intensely urged the Bush administration to use NATO in the response. Weirdly, the Bush administration made every effort to circumvent NATO wherever possible, in the process weakening it and casting a dubious light on its future.

2) Reply 28: I was responding to Slider, who was arguing as an american in explicit context and comparison between the USA and the EU.

3) Reply 34: Gman from Britain lamented the fear of dwindling british power within the EU. The rather subservient and not at all powerful role of Britain in the "coalition of the willing" is not just to me a painfully obvious counter-argument, especially as Britain was hit hard by the steel tariffs they got slammed into their face by the Bush administration during the same period and had to be bailed out by the EU. In light of all that having the gall to accuse the EU of weakening Britain is so utterly bizarre and so preposterous at least to me that a response was mandatory.

4) Reply 72: The US media industry is so dominant that some european countries have even mandated quotas for indigenous productions on TV or in cinemas. Again, it was a topical response to another statement which left me not much choice.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 87):
Your references to the US are almost always cast in a negative light. Do you realize how much your dislike of the US colors what you write? I'm just curious.

So you presumed that I was somehow preoccupied with the USA, but as you can see above, all your references have in fact solid topical foundations and have nothing to do with an arbitrary "anti-americanism" on my part. Which doesn't exist, anyway - I'm vehemently in opposition to the Bush administration, but not more so than many of your own compatriots. The USA as a country is a completely different matter from my point of view, even if it's temporarily tainted.

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 87):
Maybe you are just using the UK's relationship with the US as a "you're either with us or with them" argument. I can't really tell. But it would appear you have no love lost for the US.

Wrong. Love many things about the country, have met great american people in person or online, appreciate many things in connection with our own history, but the political leadership at this current time is a wall-to-wall disaster and a disgrace of historical proportions.

Just look at their sleazy handling of the current Bali conference, with exactly those people representing your country who have just been caught at having for years manipulated and suppressed scientific evidence so their own population would remain misinformed!  yuck 

UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM
DECEMBER 2007

POLITICAL INTERFERENCE WITH
CLIMATE CHANGE SCIENCE
UNDER THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION


You most definitely deserve better - much better, in fact!

Quoting Travelin man (Reply 87):
I can also tell that you are eloquent with the English language (moreso than most English speaking natives), so kudos.

Thank you. I'm just trying not to butcher a host language to which I consider myself a (mostly) polite guest...
 
Klaus
Posts: 21541
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:37 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
You may very well be better off, and if you are, thats great. I just think you ought to admit that your attempt to pass off the disenfranchisement of the opponents of the EU Constitution by equating them to supporters of a losing presidential candidate was more than lame.

Nobody was "disenfranchised", except the much larger number of people all over the EU who wanted a proper constitution and not the reduced form we've got now.

The referenda were about the status change a proper constitution would have meant. The opponents managed to have that rejected.

So now the essentially necessary operative improvements are being passed without the status change. So be it.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
According to the statement I linked to, the EU will be speaking with one voice through a "single legal personality to strengthen its negotiating power" in international fora. How can individual european states maintain the facade of soveriegnty in international affairs when they cannot exercise that sovereignty on an individual basis?

Your misconception is in the "cannot". The EU nations are moving to be able to move as one - not to be forced under a unified representation. That difference is crucial.

If they wanted, the african or southern american nations could also decide to move in unison to strengthen their position. The EU makes it easier to coordinate, but it is not a super-government and won't be or shouldn't be.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
Switching gears to the NATO matter, it seems to me that one of the benefits of the EU Constitution and greater European integration ought to be a fundamental reexamination of NATO. While I am not suggesting that the US adopt an isolationist stance, isn't it logical to expect a united Europe will be more capable of its own defense?

That's got practically nothing to do with it.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
Specifically, I really think it is time for the US to reduce its military footprint in Europe - and elsewhere around the world

Uh, oh! The big, bad bogeyman is paraded out again!  Yeah sure
Oops! Its head just fell off!  crazy 

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
We can remain as treaty partners with Europe minus the expense of maintaining US garrisons.

And minus the strategic assets which are the only real reason why those garrisons are still here (in reduced strength anyway).

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
And a side benefit to Europe - less American culture to put up with!

The garrisons have next to nothing to do with that. Nor would an artificial exclusion serve any useful purpose. The only way to withstand external cultural pressure is to have a healthy and lively culture within.

You should really re-examine some of your assumptions one of these days.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:03 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 91):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
You may very well be better off, and if you are, thats great. I just think you ought to admit that your attempt to pass off the disenfranchisement of the opponents of the EU Constitution by equating them to supporters of a losing presidential candidate was more than lame.

Nobody was "disenfranchised", except the much larger number of people all over the EU who wanted a proper constitution and not the reduced form we've got now.

There are people in Europe who do not favor the EU Constitution. They are in the minority, just like those people in the US who didn't vote for Bush. the difference is, the Bush opponents have the opportunity to elect a leader of their own liking at the next election. When will the opponents of the EU Constitution enjoy that same opportunity?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 91):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
According to the statement I linked to, the EU will be speaking with one voice through a "single legal personality to strengthen its negotiating power" in international fora. How can individual european states maintain the facade of sovereignty in international affairs when they cannot exercise that sovereignty on an individual basis?

Your misconception is in the "cannot". The EU nations are moving to be able to move as one - not to be forced under a unified representation. That difference is crucial.

Well, at the last UN meeting I attended, the individual EU nations were NOT permitted to cast individual votes on resolutions brought to the floor. Did they choose to be bound in this fashion? Yes. But the end result was the same. If an individual EU state disagreed with the majority decision taken during EU consultations, they were forbidden to register that disapproval publicly.

How is that not a loss of state sovereignty?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 91):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
Switching gears to the NATO matter, it seems to me that one of the benefits of the EU Constitution and greater European integration ought to be a fundamental reexamination of NATO. While I am not suggesting that the US adopt an isolationist stance, isn't it logical to expect a united Europe will be more capable of its own defense?

That's got practically nothing to do with it.

Why not? Why can't greater EU political and economic integration lead to EU military integration?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 91):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
Specifically, I really think it is time for the US to reduce its military footprint in Europe - and elsewhere around the world

Uh, oh! The big, bad bogeyman is paraded out again!  
Oops! Its head just fell off!

You know Klaus, sometimes your arrogance and condescension is pedantic and immature. Like in this instance.

I asked what I believe to be a sincere and logical question. You want to play grade school idiot, that's your choice.

What - Americans can't question the necessity of maintaining the status quo of our military forces based overseas?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 91):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 89):
And a side benefit to Europe - less American culture to put up with!

The garrisons have next to nothing to do with that. Nor would an artificial exclusion serve any useful purpose. The only way to withstand external cultural pressure is to have a healthy and lively culture within.

You should really re-examine some of your assumptions one of these days.

Why, because you don't like them? Awwww, I'm so sad.

I thought that it was obvious that my last statement about the diminished impact of American culture was intended as a joke.

Since you apparently didn't understand it - Klaus, it was a joke.  biggrin 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
User avatar
sebolino
Posts: 3565
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:43 am



Quoting Paulc (Reply 5):
Klaus,

it was not us that rejected the constitution first time around - we never got the chance to. France & Holland both said 'no' in a democratic vote yet the constitution has been recycled and presented again with only minor changes.

Some points:

- The referendums were about the 1st constitution, an we are not talking about this one.
- The ministers in Europe, as well as the parliements, have full legitimity of the people, not less than a referendum.
- I always thought it's foolish to ask directly to the people about a text as complex as this constituion, and I thought the same about the different treaties (Maastricht, ...). The people has elected a parliement and a president (in France) knowing perfectly what was his/their opinion about Europe. No need to make a referendum for every decision.
Anyway, the people will always say no, whatever the question is, as long as they are unsatisfied with the government. And it's the only reason why people said NO in France last time.

The same goes a little different in UK: people will always say no whatever the question is as long as it's about Europe (except if it's "would you like the UK to quit the EU and join the US ?"  Smile ).


Seb
 
User avatar
sebolino
Posts: 3565
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:48 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 92):
There are people in Europe who do not favor the EU Constitution. They are in the minority, just like those people in the US who didn't vote for Bush. the difference is, the Bush opponents have the opportunity to elect a leader of their own liking at the next election. When will the opponents of the EU Constitution enjoy that same opportunity?

Very strange argument.
You will always find people against any decision. Conclusion: the governments should never take any decision. ????
Bush decided to start a war in Iraq. He was elected by the US people, so nobody thought (in the US) he didn't have the right to do it. Now, a new president will come, but will never be able to erase the past. The huge damages made by Bush will stay and last many years.
 
TheCol
Posts: 1857
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 9:30 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:55 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 92):
Why not? Why can't greater EU political and economic integration lead to EU military integration?

I doubt it would be a good idea to disband NATO while the current dispute over arctic territory exists. The only way to keep Russia from escalating the situation is to present a united front against any further actions that would violate the process of determination.
No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
 
express1
Posts: 847
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2006 2:08 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:00 am



Quoting Travelin man (Reply 87):
Klaus, I've read your posts for quite a while now, but it still strikes me as funny how many times you bring up the US when discussing the European Union.

told you he doesnt know what his talking about it seems he is confused

European Union United States of America, can you tell the diffrence now Klaus?

dave
David.S cavanagh since 1961,if you can do better,then show me.
 
paulc
Topic Author
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:42 pm

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:39 am

Sebolino,

the 'old' constitution and 'new' treaty are almost identical - that has been stated by numerous politicians / study groups from all over the eu.

Other treaties have been rejected by individual countries (Maastrict / Nice to name 2) but as is the case with the eu - the wishes of the people are being ignored. This is a massive deficit in democracy.

Halls20,

how do you know that the majority people in europe favour the constitution? - the majority in France / Holland did not and many other countries are being denied an opportunity to express their concerns. If politicians are so certain it is a good thing then try and convince us - denying us a voice does not help their case.
English First, British Second, european Never!
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 12:43 pm



Quoting Sebolino (Reply 94):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 92):
There are people in Europe who do not favor the EU Constitution. They are in the minority, just like those people in the US who didn't vote for Bush. the difference is, the Bush opponents have the opportunity to elect a leader of their own liking at the next election. When will the opponents of the EU Constitution enjoy that same opportunity?

Very strange argument.
You will always find people against any decision. Conclusion: the governments should never take any decision. ????
Bush decided to start a war in Iraq. He was elected by the US people, so nobody thought (in the US) he didn't have the right to do it. Now, a new president will come, but will never be able to erase the past. The huge damages made by Bush will stay and last many years.

Sebolino, let me re-frame the issue.

Earlier in this thread, Slider said "Kind of like the people who didn't vote for it but are getting it anyhow? How democratic!"

In response, Klaus said "Kind of like the people who didn't vote for Bush, but got him anyway, right?"

All I'm doing is pointing out that Klaus' comparison in the above thread is invalid.

Quoting TheCol (Reply 95):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 92):
Why not? Why can't greater EU political and economic integration lead to EU military integration?

I doubt it would be a good idea to disband NATO while the current dispute over arctic territory exists. The only way to keep Russia from escalating the situation is to present a united front against any further actions that would violate the process of determination.

I'm not suggesting that NATO be disbanded, only that the instrument be looked at in light of the changes in the world since it was negotiated.

Quoting Paulc (Reply 97):
Halls20,

how do you know that the majority people in europe favour the constitution? - the majority in France / Holland did not and many other countries are being denied an opportunity to express their concerns. If politicians are so certain it is a good thing then try and convince us - denying us a voice does not help their case.

I'm not suggest that a majority of the EU residents favor the Constitution. As I've noted above, I was simply pointing out the fallacy of Klaus' response to Slider.

That so many of the EU states have refused to submit the Constitution to their citizens for a vote suggests the leaders don't trust the judgment of their citizens.

Once again, that "taking things from you for the common good" argument seems quite appropriate, doesn't it?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
slider
Posts: 7565
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: Democracy Is Dead

Fri Dec 14, 2007 6:35 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 38):
in varietate concordia!

E Pluribus Unum.



Diversity, schmeversity.

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