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ctbarnes
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Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:53 pm

I first heard this on NPR a couple of mornings ago:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...le/2007/12/10/AR2007121000488.html

Perhaps someone should forward this to the Port of Seattle and tell them to stop being so paranoid...  Big grin

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IFEMaster
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 4:58 pm

Finally, some people with enough common sense to overcome PC bullshit. Christmas is Christmas. It's not 'Winterval'. It's not 'An Unspecified Holiday Season'. It's Christmas. People need to stop pandering to minority who think everyone should walk on glass around them for fear of offending them. Offended by Christmas? Deal with it.

Merry Christmas!
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slider
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:00 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 1):
Finally, some people with enough common sense to overcome PC bullshit. Christmas is Christmas. It's not 'Winterval'. It's not 'An Unspecified Holiday Season'. It's Christmas. People need to stop pandering to minority who think everyone should walk on glass around them for fear of offending them. Offended by Christmas? Deal with it.

Perfectly on the mark!

Lock the thread now, haha
 
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:22 pm

They holidays represent many things to many people.

If people want to celebrate the birth of Jesus, they should do it.

But it is beyond silly and petty when a Christian attempts to appropriate the season as belonging solely to the province of Christianity. It's historically innaccurate. It's intolerant. It's ignorant.

Aren't there more important things to worry about?
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:29 pm

We went to Sacramento last weekend. There was a menorah but no nativity in front of the capital. Likewise in Pioneer Courthouse Square in downtown Portland. So, I don't understand why it is PC to celebrate a Jewish holiday but not a Christian holiday. If the menorah can be on display, why should we be ashamed to set up a nativity? That is one of the reasons for Christmas, right?

When I lived in Auburn (between Seattle and Tacoma) the ferry system came under fire for displaying four strings of white lights from Thanksgiving to New Years. No wreaths, no stars, no crosses, just four strings of white lights on each of it's ferries. A few complained, so the ferry system had to take them down. The outcry after the decision came from everyone: Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Christians, athiests.... everyone all saying the same thing: What was so offensive about four strings of white lights?
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slider
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:29 pm



Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 3):
If people want to celebrate the birth of Jesus, they should do it.

But it is beyond silly and petty when a Christian attempts to appropriate the season as belonging solely to the province of Christianity. It's historically innaccurate. It's intolerant. It's ignorant.

So it's not about the birth of Jesus? Please explain.
 
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Chris

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:38 pm



Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 3):

But it is beyond silly and petty when a Christian attempts to appropriate the season as belonging solely to the province of Christianity. It's historically innaccurate. It's intolerant. It's ignorant.

You're missing the point of the article. The point is that those who don't celebrate the birth of Christ as Christmas shouldn't be offended by the use of the word 'Christmas' to identify the season. And I agree entirely. I've always said 'Merry Christmas' and always will. None of this 'Happy Holidays' crap. Likewise, I'm not going to get offended if someone says to me "Happy Hanukkah".
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:41 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 5):
So it's not about the birth of Jesus? Please explain.

Last I heard Hanukkah is not about the birth of Jesus.
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:43 pm



Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 8):
Last I heard Hanukkah is not about the birth of Jesus.

Good job we're not talking about the use of the word "Hanukkah" here. Starter for ten: Spot the reference to Christ in the word "Christmas".
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:47 pm

I never understood this.

I don't celebrate Christmas because it's not my holiday. (Although lately I have kinda been celebrating it since the wife does!) But anyway... I think it would terribly offensive if people took Yom Kippur or Hanukkah and perverted it for some secular celebration of excess consumption of tangible goods.

Can you imagine what would happen if we did this to a Muslim holiday? Good god, they can't contain themselves over a drawing of Muhammad... screwing around with one of their holidays would be 10x worse.

Christmas is a Christian holiday, and people trying to convert it to something else are wrong.

-UH60
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Confuscius
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:49 pm

So it's not about the birth of Jesus? Please explain.

It's about commerce, giving and especially for me receiving gifts.

Happy Holidays....
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 5:50 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
Christmas is a Christian holiday, and people trying to convert it to something else are wrong.

Spot on.  checkmark 

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Confuscius
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:05 pm

Christmas was recognized and celebrated before "commercial exploitation" even existed.

Celebrated perhaps but not enjoyed as much.

No Playstation3, Xbox360, Wii (can't get em anyway)? Bummer.
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:10 pm

"Let's stop being silly about a Christian Christmas," he said, referring to a tendency to play down the traditional celebrations of the birth of Christ for fear of offending minorities in multicultural Britain.

Actually, the tendency to play down the 'birth of Christ' is because more and more people realise the birth of the son of god never happened and that there is a very limited role for myth and superstition in everyday life.

Let's also remember that private companies like PetSmart have been attacked by religious terrorist organisations like AFA for not using Christian terminology around this time.
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:14 pm



Quoting Confuscius (Reply 16):
Celebrated perhaps but not enjoyed as much.

No Playstation3, Xbox360, Wii (can't get em anyway)? Bummer.

 rotfl  There is no counterpoint I can make!

Speaking of Wii's, I saw two women fighting over the last one in Costco last weekend. Apparently, 26 had been available, and these two women got their hands on the last one right at same moment. The cops were called to settle the situation down. It was really quite amusing.
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IFEMaster
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:24 pm



Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):

Actually, the tendency to play down the 'birth of Christ' is because more and more people realise the birth of the son of god never happened and that there is a very limited role for myth and superstition in everyday life.

It's been historically proven that Jesus Christ walked the earth. Whether or not he was the son of God is another matter. So, really, your statement needs some adjusting. The birth of Christ did happen, but the two questions that exist is did it occur on December 25th (unlikely), and was he the son of God (unprovable, open to all kinds of speculation). Take the religious aspect away, and Christmas is still the celebration of the birth of someone who did exist.
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777236ER
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:30 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 21):
It's been historically proven that Jesus Christ walked the earth. Whether or not he was the son of God is another matter. So, really, your statement needs some adjusting. The birth of Christ did happen, but the two questions that exist is did it occur on December 25th (unlikely), and was he the son of God (unprovable, open to all kinds of speculation). Take the religious aspect away, and Christmas is still the celebration of the birth of someone who did exist.

What I wrote was :

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 17):
Actually, the tendency to play down the 'birth of Christ' is because more and more people realise the birth of the son of god never happened and that there is a very limited role for myth and superstition in everyday life.

I never said Jesus didn't exist.
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:44 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 4):
We went to Sacramento last weekend. There was a menorah but no nativity in front of the capital. Likewise in Pioneer Courthouse Square in downtown Portland. So, I don't understand why it is PC to celebrate a Jewish holiday but not a Christian holiday. If the menorah can be on display, why should we be ashamed to set up a nativity? That is one of the reasons for Christmas, right?

Last weekend it was Hanukkah. If I am not mistaken, yesterday was the last night. If you go back this weekend and the menorah is still up and the nativity scene or christmas tree isn't, then you might have a more legit argument.

There also is the question of taste. Yes, you could have both a menorah and a nativity scene, but since Hanukkah comes first, and is over by the time Christmas rolls around, it just makes more sense from an aesthetic standpoint to have the menorah up when it's Hanukkah, and then put the nativity scene up. Christmas is only one day - there's no desperate need to have all the decorations up weeks in advance. I've been hearing Christmas music since even before Thanksgiving, and I'm just about sick of it, and it's only halfway through December.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 7):
The point is that those who don't celebrate the birth of Christ as Christmas shouldn't be offended by the use of the word 'Christmas' to identify the season. And I agree entirely. I've always said 'Merry Christmas' and always will. None of this 'Happy Holidays' crap. Likewise, I'm not going to get offended if someone says to me "Happy Hanukkah".

Fine with me. I don't get offended if someone says "Merry Christmas" to me. By that same token, I don't expect other people to get offended if I say "Happy Holidays." If they do get offended, then they can, as Falcon said, "hole themselves up in an attic or somewhere" and let me celebrate the holidays the way I'd like to.

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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:46 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 21):
but the two questions that exist is did it occur on December 25th (unlikely)

I had always heard he was born sometime in August. I don't remember why "they" decided December 25 is the official day for Christmas.
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:50 pm

I don't remember why "they" decided December 25 is the official day for Christmas.

Because it would screw up Santa Claus. Imagine, Christmas in summer for us northern hemispherers, yikes.

[Edited 2007-12-13 10:53:48]
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:57 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 24):
I had always heard he was born sometime in August. I don't remember why "they" decided December 25 is the official day for Christmas.

It was a convergence of two ideas. The early church (sometime around the year 270) used to lump the celebration of Christ's birth in to the Epiphany Festival, which occurred on January 6th. At the time, there was a lot of debate about whether or not such a significant event to the faith should be lumped in with other celebrations, or indeed if it should be celebrated at all. There were quite a few philosophers around at the time that suggested various other dates throughout the year, but none really got any backing from the majority of the early church movement. December 25th was eventually decided upon because it reflected a concern that a couple of the philosophers had about pagan gods (at the time, birthday celebrations were for pagan gods only) and it was also the date that two other similar festivals were celebrated - "The Birth of The Unconquered Sun" and "The Sun of Righteousness"; both were Roman festivals. And seeing that pagans were already exalted some of their gods to a parallel state of deity to Christ, church leaders effectively decided to hijack the date and declare it as the day they celebrate the birth of Christ. All the bells and whistles, such as the gift giving and the drinking and being merry and all that have carried over from the original pagan celebrations.

Hope that answers your question. I knew that being a history hound would come in handy one day.  Smile
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express1
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:52 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 1):
Finally, some people with enough common sense to overcome PC bullshit. Christmas is Christmas. It's not 'Winterval'. It's not 'An Unspecified Holiday Season'. It's Christmas. People need to stop pandering to minority who think everyone should walk on glass around them for fear of offending them. Offended by Christmas? Deal with it.

Well said, its just as bad here in the UK,all these religious idiots who are offended by the way we spell Christmas (xmas)

get a life if you don't like the way our country celebrate xmas,or the way we run our country for that matter, then grab a flight back home and stay there.

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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:13 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 1):
Finally, some people with enough common sense to overcome PC bullshit. Christmas is Christmas. It's not 'Winterval'. It's not 'An Unspecified Holiday Season'. It's Christmas. People need to stop pandering to minority who think everyone should walk on glass around them for fear of offending them. Offended by Christmas? Deal with it.

Absolutely spot on. Hell, even disregarding the religious and nowadays commercial importance, Christmas is open to anyone. If someone has a problem when I say "Merry Christmas", he should piss off because then he's showing total intolerance to something that is also celebrated by other cultures, even non-christian cultures, despite the religious and commercial meaning.

Personally, I don't like to celebrate Christmas because my birthday is on Boxing Day, and I do tend to become The Grinch during that time (all in good jest though), but disregarding my bias, I do respect this important holiday. I also respect if someone celebrates Hannukah, Kwanzaa, Passover, Yom Kippur, the Hajj, Ramadan, Easter, or any other holiday.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 1):
Merry Christmas!

Speaking of which, in Germany we don't even have a phrase to say "Happy Holidays", so the PC brigade is going to be stuck by calling out the name of the actual holiday, in this case Christmas.  Wink

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express1
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:27 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 21):
The birth of Christ did happen

unprovable!!!

dave
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:55 pm



Quoting Express1 (Reply 34):
unprovable!!!

dave

Do your homework. It's already been proven.
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express1
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:01 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 38):
Do your homework. It's already been proven.

ok if that's the case where is he,why cant we see him.

dave
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:01 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 38):
It's already been proven.

Conclusively (i.e. to the satisfaction of secular historians) ? Let's not have that debate here now, but belief and proof are not the same thing. For those who believe, proof doesn't matter, but for those of us interested in history, conclusive evidence is important.
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:10 pm



Quoting Express1 (Reply 39):
ok if that's the case where is he,why cant we see him.

dave



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 40):

Conclusively (i.e. to the satisfaction of secular historians) ? Let's not have that debate here now, but belief and proof are not the same thing. For those who believe, proof doesn't matter, but for those of us interested in history, conclusive evidence is important.

Let's start again, shall we. Historians have agreed, based on much evidence, that a man named Jesus Christ walked this earth about 2000 years ago. That much is known.

It says nothing about his deity though, and I think that's perhaps what you're getting at. As I stated in a previous post, whether or not that same man was/is the son of God, is unprovable, but doesn't negate the fact that he was born.
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:15 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 41):
Historians have agreed, based on much evidence, that a man named Jesus Christ walked this earth about 2000 years ago. That much is known.

Documentary proof is still pretty fragmentary, and subject to some debate as to it's authenticity, I have read. But that's not what the thread is about. Another time, perhaps.
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IFEMaster
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:23 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 42):
Documentary proof is still pretty fragmentary, and subject to some debate as to it's authenticity, I have read. But that's not what the thread is about.

Well...there's plenty of documentation other than the dead sea scrolls and other Biblical artifacts that point to it being true, but...

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 42):
Another time, perhaps.

 checkmark 
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:41 pm

Why is Christmas even referred to as "Merry Christmas" anyway? Where did this word come in from? I wonder what would happen if I ever said Merry Christmas to Jesus himself. Probably end up with a blind stare.
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:48 pm



Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 46):
Why is Christmas even referred to as "Merry Christmas" anyway? Where did this word come in from?

"Merry" just means happy (it's slightly archaic now). Christmas is a contraction of Christ Mass or Christ's Mass. Mass is another word for the Eucharist, which is a significant part of most Christian church rites (except the more Protestant churches, where mass is not celebrated). Mass is the breaking of bread and the drinking of wine in remembrance of the last supper and Christ's injunction to "do this in remembrance of me". Any major holy day in the Christian calender would be celebrated with a mass, and so the calender has many "-mas" events such as Candlemass, Michaelmas, Lammas. Christmas is the second biggest celebration in the calender, with Easter being the biggest.
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 10:50 pm



Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 47):
"Merry" just means happy (it's slightly archaic now). Christmas is a contraction of Christ Mass or Christ's Mass. Mass is another word for the Eucharist, which is a significant part of most Christian church rites (except the more Protestant churches, where mass is not celebrated). Mass is the breaking of bread and the drinking of wine in remembrance of the last supper and Christ's injunction to "do this in remembrance of me". Any major holy day in the Christian calender would be celebrated with a mass, and so the calender has many "-mas" events such as Candlemass, Michaelmas, Lammas. Christmas is the second biggest celebration in the calender, with Easter being the biggest.

Text book answer from the all knowing  Wink

But my question is a bit different, how can you call Jesus Christ? How can you give him a name which he never had? Then name a holiday after it as well. Seems odd.
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:01 pm



Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 48):
how can you call Jesus Christ

Christ is from the Greek work "christos" which means "Saviour" (I'm pretty sure, anyway - no doubt TACA or Falcon will leap in and correct me if I'm wrong).

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 48):
Text book answer from the all knowing

 praise 

I went to a CofE prep school - this is baseline stuff.
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Thu Dec 13, 2007 11:28 pm

Religion and stupidity typically go hand in had I'm afraid.

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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Fri Dec 14, 2007 2:11 am

You would not believe the gyrations a client of mine went through to produce a non-offensive Christm..., er "Holiday" card for the company.

Red was out. Green was out. Colored lights...nope. Angels? Nada. No wreath or trees. Reindeer--no, because Reindeer belong to Santa.

They decided to use snowflakes and silver colors but the whole thing ended up looking gray.

I am actually suprised at the article because I distinctly remember last fall being in Manchester, England and seeing "Merry Christmas" signage.
 
express1
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:13 am



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 41):
Let's start again, shall we. Historians have agreed, based on much evidence, that a man named Jesus Christ walked this earth about 2000 years ago. That much is known.

It says nothing about his deity though, and I think that's perhaps what you're getting at. As I stated in a previous post, whether or not that same man was/is the son of God, is unprovable, but doesn't negate the fact that he was born.

Look one question to ask you,and be honest, do you believe life after death?

dave
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:39 am



Quoting YOWza (Reply 53):

Humanity and stupidity go hand in hand much more often. But that's off topic.

I'm a Christian, and I say happy Christmas when referring to that day, but if I mean the holiday season, such as the 20th-1st, I say happy holidays. Or whatever strikes my mind. I find Christmas to be, by and large, stupid. It's a holiday arbitrarily picked to satisfy pagans, and there's really no place for it in the Bible. At least, I never saw a part about spending tons of money, often beyond your means, just because there's this one day some dead people picked out a long time ago... While I don't mind the break from college and whatnot, getting religiously wound up about Christmas is stupid. I've also noticed that there are some people who seem to become quite pious at that time of year...just silly. Why don't we just practice love as much as possible? Well, we've got an economy to please.

What I don't like is when people don't want to say it because someone might find it insulting. I don't like such thin skin.

And with that, I retire to bed and wish everyone a happy Christmas and happy holidays as well.  Smile
 
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Fri Dec 14, 2007 3:45 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 1):
People need to stop pandering to minority who think everyone should walk on glass around them for fear of offending them.

"pandering to minorities" ??? What minorities ?? There is no minority opposing Christians celebrating Christmas. There may be some persons eager to complain out of lust for complaining.

Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 1):
Offended by Christmas?

WHO is offended ? Reality: nobody really

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 4):
We went to Sacramento last weekend. There was a menorah but no nativity in front of the capital. Likewise in Pioneer Courthouse Square in downtown Portland. So, I don't understand why it is PC to celebrate a Jewish holiday but not a Christian holiday. If the menorah can be on display, why should we be ashamed to set up a nativity? That is one of the reasons for Christmas, right?

This simply shows that the Jewish local leaders have a bit more courage and stamina, and are not scared just because there may be a few persons complaining.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 4):
What was so offensive about four strings of white lights?

You can ALWAYS find people who complain about whatever
 
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Chris

Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:05 pm



Quoting Seb146 (Reply 24):
I don't get offended if someone says "Merry Christmas" to me. By that same token, I don't expect other people to get offended if I say "Happy Holidays." If they do get offended, then they can, as Falcon said, "hole themselves up in an attic or somewhere" and let me celebrate the holidays the way I'd like to.

same here. I love Xmas 'cos it's a non-working day and we get to exchange gifts with our loved ones and family. Couldn't care less about the religious side of it.
If they wanted to line up the other hannuka and kwanzaa days and make one big holiday, it's fine with me.

Quoting Confuscius (Reply 25):
Imagine, Christmas in summer for us northern hemispherers, yikes.

Why "yikes" man? Dinning in a 100F night never spoiled our Xmas, and the next day you can even catch a new tan. ;D
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Fri Dec 14, 2007 4:12 pm



Quoting SBBRTech (Reply 65):
Couldn't care less about the religious side of it.

That's my biggest beef with people complaining about stores. Stores are inherently appealing to the secular crowd, not the religious crowd. So, what's really going on is that the religious crowd is not so secretly trying to convince the secular crowd to be religious -- by rubbing it in their faces whenever they get the chance.

That's not very Christian, in my opinion.
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4323
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:14 pm



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 10):
Hanukkah and perverted it for some secular celebration of excess consumption of tangible goods

Since Hanukkah is "competing" with Xmas, it slowly is morphing into commercial excess.

Regardless of who was born where, when and why. December 25th is Christmas. Plain and simple. I am not religious at all, yet I say Merry (or Happy) Christmas. It is that time of year.

PC bullsh** is ruining everything. Call it as it is. It is Merry f***ing Christmas, Damn it!!!

"Happy holidays" encompasses all the holidays at this time, most notably Xmas and New Years, but can include all the others. However, to ban the use of Merry Christmas and the like, FTLOG, is just asinine.

Here is an interesting quote from Ron Karenga (founder of Kwanzaa) - "People think it's African, but it's not. I came up with Kwanzaa because black people wouldn't celebrate it if they knew it was American. Also, I put it around Christmas because I knew that's when a lot of bloods would be partying." he has also explained that his creation of Kwanzaa was motivated in part by hostility toward both Christianity and Judaism.

Now there is holiday spirit, if ever given.

Merry Christmas!!  santahat 
You can't cure stupid
 
JGPH1A
Posts: 15079
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Fri Dec 14, 2007 8:43 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 72):
And the Shroud of Turin as compelling evidence of that as well.

While an interesting and controversial artefact, it is not safe to consider it as conclusive evidence of anything. The limited research so far conducted on the cloth has yielded conflicting evidence that defies a single inescapable conclusion. This in itself is very interesting, since had the cloth indeed been a mediaeval hoax, this could have been conclusively proven already, and yet there is still significant doubt and dispute over the interpretation of the very limited data available.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 73):
Never celebrated it.

You have kids now - great excuse to dip your toes in. Enjoy !
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
D L X
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Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Fri Dec 14, 2007 9:14 pm



Quoting EWRCabincrew (Reply 41):
I came up with Kwanzaa because black people wouldn't celebrate it if they knew it was American

I've never met a Black person that celebrates Kwanzaa. I've always felt that it was kind of a joke on white people. You know, like "ha ha... you guys are saying 'Happy Kwanzaa' on the radio because you're afraid of offending people. But no one actually cares."
 
slider
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Fri Dec 14, 2007 10:51 pm

Whoa- did this thread get pared down or what? What was so offensive to people? The fact that we exposed the founder of Kwanzaa as a brutal felon who tortured women?

Quoting JGPH1A (Reply 42):
While an interesting and controversial artefact, it is not safe to consider it as conclusive evidence of anything. The limited research so far conducted on the cloth has yielded conflicting evidence that defies a single inescapable conclusion. This in itself is very interesting, since had the cloth indeed been a mediaeval hoax, this could have been conclusively proven already, and yet there is still significant doubt and dispute over the interpretation of the very limited data available.

I find the Shroud fascinating. Not that I’ve studied it at any great depth, but since it hasn’t been debunked as you said, it remains compelling. And when you throw in the statistical odds of all of the miscellaneous factors, it does make for some further reflection. Ie: the odds of someone being crucified, with nails (as opposed to the usual without), the pollen on the cloth, the weave of the cloth, the cap of thorns, the piercing of the side, the bloodflows, the negative image, the coinage on the eyes, the anthropological info, etc.
 
JGPH1A
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RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:14 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 44):
Ie: the odds of someone being crucified, with nails (as opposed to the usual without), the pollen on the cloth, the weave of the cloth, the cap of thorns, the piercing of the side, the bloodflows, the negative image, the coinage on the eyes, the anthropological info, etc.

I read (admittedly on Wiki, so who knows) that there is an alternate theory that the image is actually that of Jacques de Molay, head of the Templars (I know, I know - not them again !) who was tortured by being nailed to a door, and who was left to recover under some kind of shroud. Yes I know, far fetched, but there are some interesting coincidences such as the first recorded owner of the shroud was the widow of the man burned to death with de Molay - the Templar preceptor of Normandy. Anyway, we digress - it's a fascinating subject.

Re the coins on the eyes, apparently there was no Jewish tradition of putting coins on the eyes of the dead - and the Roman tradition was to place the coin in the mouth.
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
EWRCabincrew
Posts: 4323
Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 2:37 am

RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Fri Dec 14, 2007 11:15 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 44):
What was so offensive to people?

Mmmm (scratchchin}

Quoting Slider (Reply 44):
The fact that we exposed the founder of Kwanzaa as a brutal felon who tortured women?

Makes Kwanzaa that much more a family holiday.  Yeah sure

The talk about Kwanzaa relates the topic. The fact Kwanzaa exists is testament to the fact that Christmas has a life of its own. Let Christmas be just that. Who gives a rat's a** anyway. If you don't like it, don't celebrate it. How difficult can that be?
You can't cure stupid
 
TACAA320
Posts: 7153
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:03 am

RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:14 am

"It's time to stop being daft about Christmas. It's fine to celebrate and it's fine for Christ to be star of the show," said Trevor Phillips, chairman of the Equality and Human Rights Commission.
"Let's stop being silly about a Christian Christmas," he said, referring to a tendency to play down the traditional celebrations of the birth of Christ for fear of offending minorities in multicultural Britain. "

Quoting Ctbarnes (Thread starter):
Perhaps someone should forward this to the Port of Seattle and tell them to stop being so paranoid...

Definitely someone has to do that Big grin
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
LASoctoberB6
Posts: 1936
Joined: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:23 pm

RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Sat Dec 15, 2007 5:44 am



Quoting Slider (Reply 5):
So it's not about the birth of Jesus? Please explain.

To me, it's not about the birth of Jesus. Christmas is about being with family and giving people gifts to see their faces and lives light up with joy and happiness. I live for that and would want nothing else but to see my loved ones happy to see each other and their nice gifts.
[NOT IN SERVICE] {WEStJet}
 
jafa39
Posts: 4320
Joined: Wed Mar 23, 2005 2:14 pm

RE: Religious Leaders: Stop Being Daft About Christmas

Sat Dec 15, 2007 7:09 am



Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 3):
But it is beyond silly and petty when a Christian attempts to appropriate the season as belonging solely to the province of Christianity. It's historically innaccurate. It's intolerant. It's ignorant.

And I am sure there are things other than Muslim festivals that occur during Ramadan

Quoting MBMBOS (Reply 7):
Last I heard Hanukkah is not about the birth of Jesus.

Nobody said it was

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 9):
I think it would terribly offensive if people took Yom Kippur or Hanukkah and perverted it for some secular celebration of excess consumption of tangible goods

You obviously didn't grow up in one the Jewish areas of North West London then  Wink

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 13):
Actually, the tendency to play down the 'birth of Christ' is because more and more people realise the birth of the son of god never happened and that there is a very limited role for myth and superstition in everyday life.

Rubbish, its about PC wankers (who usually "represent" but don't come from "minority cultures") trying to prevent an offence that would never happen. I have never met a Muslim who had a problem with christians celebrating christmas....the reason people get so pissed at the denial of christmas is because it is the only religious celebration that faces censorship and that is utter BS and why I throw any cards with "Happy Holidays" straight in the bin.

Quoting Seb146 (Reply 18):
I don't remember why "they" decided December 25 is the official day for Christmas.

To coincide with the winter solstice so the pagans would adopt christianity.....the logistics are not the issue, it is when christians would like to celebrate christmas and it is when the nay-sayers and tofu-eating-bicycle-riding-non-smoking-hairy-legged-ugly-lesbians are at their hormonal peak.

So I am a white, straight, male, meat-eater who was raised as Church of England (my beliefs go beyond religious labels or one set belief)....if you don't like it.....LEAVE ME ALONE PLEASE WORLD!!!
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....

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