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lobster
Topic Author
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Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:31 pm

Muslim Brides Undergoing Painful Vaginal Surgery to 'Re-virginize' for Wedding Nights

Like most woman her age, Salim has smoked, drank, had sex and even lived with one of her past boyfriends.

However, if the devout Muslim family of her soon-to-be husband- or even her own family- knew this, she could be murdered.

Aisha has opted to have her virginity surgically restored in a delicate but painful surgery called hymenoplasties -- where the hymen is re-created from the already torn tissue, or a new membrane is inserted.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,317149,00.html


My first thought is WTF? Why?

This girl needs to run far, far away from these people. There is no reason in this day and age that people should be treated like this or potentially be treated like that.

This is something I'd expect to hear out of Saudi Arabia, not Australia.

[Edited 2007-12-17 16:01:08]
 
BritPilot777
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RE: Some Australian Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:40 pm

Worst thing about this is about 24 women have had this surgery done on the NHS! So British tax payers have forked out for them to have this done. Absolute rubbish! Good to see where my hard earned money goes  Yeah sure

BritPilot777
Forever Flight
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Some Australian Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Mon Dec 17, 2007 11:44 pm

worst thing about this thread is that the person who started it can't even get the country right...its the UK, NOT Australia, an Australian (Murdoch owned) newspaper reported it and FOX has also run with it.
 
lobster
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:08 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 2):
worst thing about this thread is that the person who started it can't even get the country right...its the UK, NOT Australia, an Australian (Murdoch owned) newspaper reported it and FOX has also run with it.

The way Fox had it written, it seemed it was in Australia. Don't go get your panties in a bunch now, I changed it.  Wow!

Also, found this more in depth article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv..._article_id=502714&in_page_id=1879
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:14 am

still managed to leave the fact that you'd expect to hear this in SA and not Australia in the opening post...I understood the article fine and there were plenty of clues.  Yeah sure
 
lobster
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:25 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 4):
.I understood the article fine and there were plenty of clues

Well then Mr. Smartypants, good for you! I do believe you get a gold star for the day. wave 
 
bravo45
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:46 am



Quoting Lobster (Thread starter):
My first thought is WTF? Why?

My thoughts exactly.. more so about the title of your thread. On top of issues already mentioned which raise the credibility of the story anyway; Why the hell did you have to drag Islam in here yet again?? Its a cultural issue. If you look at it from Islam's perspective, it is equally forbidden for a male to have extra- martial affair yet its the culture and the rotten traditions that manifest in the kind of stuff you are reading if its true. It is true women have those pressures more than men, but religion has no part in it. In fact its contrary to Islam if these rules apply unevenly. Islam stopped the murder of girls at birth (still practiced in some parts of the world), gave women rights that even Christianity does not give, like inheritance etc. There is a difference between what Islam says and Muslims do, these people might just as well have been of other religion but the same culture. But yes, its fox and you probably only posted it to bash Islam, so go ahead...
 
lobster
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:08 am



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):

My thoughts exactly.. more so about the title of your thread. On top of issues already mentioned which raise the credibility of the story anyway; Why the hell did you have to drag Islam in here yet again?? Its a cultural issue. If you look at it from Islam's perspective, it is equally forbidden for a male to have extra- martial affair yet its the culture and the rotten traditions that manifest in the kind of stuff you are reading if its true. It is true women have those pressures more than men, but religion has no part in it. In fact its contrary to Islam if these rules apply unevenly. Islam stopped the murder of girls at birth (still practiced in some parts of the world), gave women rights that even Christianity does not give, like inheritance etc. There is a difference between what Islam says and Muslims do, these people might just as well have been of other religion but the same culture. But yes, its fox and you probably only posted it to bash Islam, so go ahead...

Give me a break.  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure

Notice the topic starts off by saying SOME? I didn't say all, every, etc. And it's not just Fox, I also posted the link from the UK which the article came from. Did you take the time to read that? Of course, their probably "bashing Islam" too huh? Whatever......
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:11 am



Quoting Lobster (Thread starter):
My first thought is WTF? Why?

Yup . . .

Answer: So she doesn't get herself killed . . . based on the antiquated stone age laws the Mulsim community has regarding women . . . who the hell could blame her . . .

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 1):
Good to see where my hard earned money goes

Rather like our tax $$$ in the US paying the medical bills of illegal immigrants . . . same crap, different reason.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 2):
an Australian (Murdoch owned) newspaper

That bastard has invaded Oz as well . . .  faint  Sorry 'bout that Monte.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
nosedive
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:21 am



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
That bastard has invaded Oz as well . . . faint Sorry 'bout that Monte.

Invaded? Shit, the Aussies made him!

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
illegal immigrants

Where exactly does it state she is illegal?
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:24 am



Quoting Nosedive (Reply 9):
Where exactly does it state she is illegal?

Didn't say that . . . read more carfully . . .

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 1):
Good to see where my hard earned money goes

Rather like our tax $$$ in the US paying the medical bills of illegal immigrants . . . same crap, different reason.

FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:37 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
That bastard has invaded Oz as well . . .

where do you think he's from originally?

most Australians will gladly tell anyone that they are welcome to him.

[Edited 2007-12-17 17:43:10]
 
nosedive
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:45 am



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
Didn't say that . . . read more carfully . . .

Carefully. So you would like to link two issues, cultural injustice and services to illegals, together.  redflag 
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:09 am

Well another islam bashing thread, getting routine now isn't it?
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
DC10extender
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:17 am



Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 13):
Well another islam bashing thread, getting routine now isn't it?

This is the new gun control thread. I do however believe that it is an interesting article. I had never heard of such a surgery.
Did you ever read on your birth certificate that life is fair? Thats cause its not there.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:31 am

There are also some Christian societires obsessed with female virginity today. E.g. I know several Catholic Filipino women, who were virgins well into their late twenties, because they were taught only to have sex with a married husband, but that college education, job etc. would have to come before marrying. My girlfriend was still a virgin when I met her due to this custom and she was 27 at this time.

Also, back in the 1960s we had similar problems with immigrants from rural southern Italy, who didn't like to see their daughters / sisters go meeting especially German boys and expected them to marry the man from their home village picked by their parents. There were even killings about this.

I think it boils down to a very traditionalist patriarchic attitude, in which the father is the boss and the children, especially his daughters, are his property, to be disposed off in the way he saw it fit.
The respect such a family patriarch has among his buddies depends very much in how far he has his family under control. A daughter going out dating and thus openly defying him would make him be considered less than macho by his mates and would make him a dishonourable outcast in his society. There have been even cases where the father was reluctant to take action against a rebellious daughter, but go egged on by his friends and relatives, and in some cases even by his wife, who would consider him a weakling, if he would not take drastic action in "ereasing the dishonour".
This mentality used to be ripe all along the Meditarranean, but fortunately disappeared in most of Europe (excemptions would e.g. in rural Albania, in regions where the government law was never strong and old customs, including bloody family feuds, are still going on or rural areas of e.g. Turkey, again areas, where modern lawwas rarely enforced.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
Rara
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:32 am

Yeah it's quite interesting. Apparently virginity at marriage is a very important concept in Muslim cultures (and hey, not entirely unknown in the bible belt either, eh?). If this kind of surgery provides a way for young muslims to lead a sexually active life and still marry in what they believe to be the "right" state... nothing wrong with that.

Although in her case, the main issue seems to be that she "might be murdered" if found not a virgin. If true, that's obviously horrible... however, we don't know whether that's exaggerated or not. It's not like muslims generally go on a killing spree if they find something not to meet their expectations..  Yeah sure
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:38 am



Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 13):
Well another islam bashing thread, getting routine now isn't it?

Nooo, just a topic of interest. No different than your post . . . the blasphemist West actually looking the 'other way' when a woman marries who is not a virgin . . . what say you regarding my prospective bride, the mother of two daughters been married before . . .

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 12):
So you would like to link two issues, cultural injustice and services to illegals, together

 redflag 

Nope . . . bad $$$ dollars after bad $$$ . . . that's all. You an crawl off that high horse now . . . your point is irrelevent. Bad $$$ after bad $$$ is just aht period. Who cares how it's spent . . . it's still wasted $$$.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
bravo45
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:47 am



Quoting Lobster (Reply 7):
Notice the topic starts off by saying SOME? I didn't say all, every, etc. And it's not just Fox, I also posted the link from the UK which the article came from. Did you take the time to read that? Of course, their probably "bashing Islam" too huh? Whatever......

Granted you said 'some' but you missed my point. Its got NOTHING to do with religion at all, let alone Islam which you did mention in your topic. Like I said, they just as well could have been of any other religion in the part of the world they come from, including Christianity. Again, I did not imply that you were bashing all Muslims, in fact had that been the case I couldn't have cared less, but by reading the news, I got the feeling that religion (which the word 'Muslim' applied) wouldn't have been mentioned had they not been Muslims.
I just wanted to clear that up, if that was not your intention (I don't believe it wasn't the intention of Fox), then I owe you an apology, and SHOULD that be the case; I am sorry for implying you meant it that way. Lastly, again, nothing to do with Islam, nothing to do with any religion, just rotten cultural traditions that people ought throw away. One thing we can agree on is that the blame lies squarely on them for continuing to practice such injustices. I know even they won't justify it, the end of the such argument usually is; 'What will people say?' or 'This is how our people do it.' Its the end of the argument by me, because by this point their hypocrisy had been laid bare even to themselves.

Regards,

Jawad.
 
bravo45
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:58 am

ANC, you ought to learn something from some posts here like what I mentioned above and

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 15):

.

As for the part of tax dollars being spent on stuff like this, I can agree on. I didn't read the entire story but no tax $$ ought to be involve. And let me say again, NOTHING TO DO WITH ANY RELIGION. Is that big enough for you to read?

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
based on the antiquated stone age laws the Mulsim community has regarding women

Now there's the red flag because of one word! Go figure.
 
Emirates773ER
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:01 am



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):

Nooo, just a topic of interest. No different than your post . . . the blasphemist West actually looking the 'other way' when a woman marries who is not a virgin . . . what say you regarding my prospective bride, the mother of two daughters been married before . . .

I don't like commenting on other peoples personal life ANC, not my place. Interesting that you call this a topic of interest, everytime we have a topic on the US foreign policy I hear you say the same thing what I said.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 18):
User currently offlineBravo45

 checkmark 
The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:05 am



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 19):
Now there's the red flag because of one word! Go figure.

No redflag at all my friend . . .

The world has to progress . . . the way, IMO, women are treated in the Muslim world is a - in a word - travesty. It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it. I respect your opinion, I suspect you'll respect mine.


The words Jan mentions above are quite accurate . . . I have been on the recieving end thereof. I( have yet - to date - read about a Christian family stoning their daugher to death because she was raped. I have not experienced - in al lthe Southern Baptist BS I've been exposed to - a requirement to get one's hymen 'reattached.'.

Forgive me if you think I'm off the planet, but that seems unnatural to me. It's an opinion. That's why we're here . . . right?
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
bravo45
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:15 am

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
The world has to progress . . . the way, IMO, women are treated in the Muslim world is a - in a word - travesty. It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it. I respect your opinion, I suspect you'll respect mine.

I respect your opinion and your entitlement to it. But if throwing red flags is being intolerant then you should be the last person to bring it up (just scroll up on this or any thread where you don't agree with someone and see what I mean). As for me, those were my views on your understanding and they still stand.
As for the fact that you haven't stories like these about people of your religion is thanks to the media you rely and not because they don't happen. I'll enlighten you some day when I have time to look it up.

[Edited 2007-12-17 19:21:40]
 
jafa39
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:24 am

Some of you may be interested to know that this Op was pioneered in Japan of all places....
We, the undersigned, do hereby consent.....
 
wingnut767
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:27 am



Quoting Nosedive (Reply 12):
Carefully. So you would like to link two issues, cultural injustice and services to illegals, together.

No if you learned how to read all of the posts then you would have seen that he linked this

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 1):
Worst thing about this is about 24 women have had this surgery done on the NHS! So British tax payers have forked out for them to have this done. Absolute rubbish! Good to see where my hard earned money goes

to this

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
Rather like our tax $$$ in the US paying the medical bills of illegal immigrants . . . same crap, different reason.

ANC did not try to

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 10):
Didn't say that . . . read more carfully . . .

link

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Quoting Nosedive (Reply 12):
two issues, cultural injustice and services to illegals, together

like you tried to say he did redflag   redflag 
Yakum purkan min shmaya
 
bravo45
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:32 am



Quoting Jafa39 (Reply 23):
Some of you may be interested to know that this Op was pioneered in Japan of all places....

Damn Islam!!!!


















Oh wait!!!.....
 
baroque
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:39 am



Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 4):
still managed to leave the fact that you'd expect to hear this in SA and not Australia in the opening post...I understood the article fine and there were plenty of clues.

It does leave you wondering what was understood if Australia is confused, not with Austria, but with United Kingdom. Sheesh.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 9):
Invaded? Shit, the Aussies made him!

If I may make a slight correction there. While he was certainly born of an Australian family, it could be argued that taking US citizenship was what made him - but we do not refer to him as the dirty digger for nothing. His dad had a splendid record too, by the way, trying to impede the promotion of arguably the best WWI general, Sir John Monash.

Apart from being insulting to Muslims, I suspect the thread starter might be insulting to the Stone Age as well as indicating a degree of uncertainty about when Islam started.

You could argue that the Jewish religion was Stone Age in vintage but even that is debatable, but both Christianity and Islam came firmly from a much later time, unless of course you think Islam developed in PNG or Australia come to that.

Primitive belief systems abound. Some are carry overs, but some appear to be partial regressions, for example the tendency to retreat to nominally Christian fundamentalism across large swathes of the USA.

It might be easier to persuade groups with primitive customs to progress if there were fewer signs of regression in many western societies.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:35 am



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 22):
for the fact that you haven't stories like these about people of your religion is thanks to the media you rely and not because they don't happen.

I completely agree, there are screwballs in whatever religion . . . fortunately, I don't necessarily practive a religion except that of self-preservation . . . every one of them ought to be brought to light and offenders - doning anything in the name of God, or Allah, or whomever - jailed.

Still of all the bastardized processes i've seen having ones hymen reattached - or worse yet, having ones clitoris cut out . . . well . . . that's bizarre . . . simply bizarre. Like I said, don't see the Southern Baptists doing that . . . although, I'm sure my ex-Mother-In-Law would have loved those practices.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:39 am



Quoting Lobster (Thread starter):
not Australia.

Whatever, you ought ot make your mind UP. It either is U.K. or Australia. As far as can be seen it is a report in an Australian paper, but about something in the U.K.
-
And she does NOT want to run away from anybody, she wants to marry.
-

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 1):
Worst thing about this is about 24 women have had this surgery done on the NHS! So British tax payers have forked out for them to have this done. Absolute rubbish! Good to see where my hard earned money goes Yeah sure

She is a U.K. resident and so of course used the NHS for the purpose.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting Qantas077 (Thread starter):
worst thing about this thread is that the person who started it can't even get the country right...its the UK, NOT Australia,

he is just a bit out of date by some meagre two centuries !
-


Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
Apparently virginity at marriage is a very important concept in Muslim cultures

as outlined above in all Mediterranean cultures
-

Quoting Rara (Reply 16):
she "might be murdered" if found not a virgin

and even if not "murdered" really, the marriage she wants might be called OFF
-

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 17):
Bad $$$ after bad $$$ is just aht period. Who cares how it's spent . . . it's still wasted $$$.

Beside the point that it in the U.K. is "Bad £££ after bad £££" the social service mentioned is NOT "wasted" but for sure is of good help to the young women involved
-

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
every one of them ought to be brought to light and offenders - doning anything in the name of God, or Allah, or whomever - jailed.

Neither the families nor the young women mentioned have committed any offence. The medical service done however helped to avoid tensions and conflicts and so qualifies as a useful social service. Sorry Sir, but there is nobody to put into jail
-

[Edited 2007-12-18 00:57:06]
 
gkirk
Posts: 23411
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:02 am

Perhaps she was extremely embarrassed about her previous shags?
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:07 am



Quoting Gkirk (Reply 31):
Perhaps she was extremely embarrassed about her previous shags?

or their traces ??  Wink  Wow!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:37 am

This used to be common practice among muslim girls (Iranian and other) coming from well to do families in Paris in the 70's and 80's. I was acquainted a fair number of them when I lived there via school and "rallyes". They would go out and do stuff with men all they wanted. Then, when it was time for marriage they would go to the best doctors in the best hospitals in town and have the surgery done to get them back to a "virgin" condition for the wedding. This is nothing new...

Quoting Lobster (Thread starter):

Aisha has opted to have her virginity surgically restored in a delicate but painful surgery called hymenoplasties -- where the hymen is re-created from the already torn tissue, or a new membrane is inserted.

There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:40 am



Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 33):
This used to be common practice among muslim girls (Iranian and other) coming from well to do families in Paris in the 70's and 80's. I was acquainted a fair number of them when I lived there via school and "rallyes". They would go out and do stuff with men all they wanted. Then, when it was time for marriage they would go to the best doctors in the best hospitals in town and have the surgery done to get them back to a "virgin" condition for the wedding. This is nothing new...

-
Neither new nor dramatic --- but helpful
 
zak
Posts: 1926
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:41 pm



Quoting Lobster (Thread starter):
This is something I'd expect to hear out of Saudi Arabia, not Australia.

the lack of integration policy and misconception of realistic soft integration is a widespread problem in all firstworld countries. i would say the least of an issue is the u.s., whilst the "soft" approach of most european countries can be considered a clear failure.
the appeasement of practical medieval situations in most immigration families is to blame for this, there have been efforts to enforce women learning the local language and give more or less mandatory education to women on their rights are slowly progressing, but it will take a long time to establish an "equal rights" culture within immigrants from muslim backgrounds.
it has to be clear that when they accept the opportunity for wealth in a western country, the first price to pay is accepting, with all its implications, the rights and equality that comes with it. if one argues that this is against their culture, all i got to say is OF COURSE THATS THE POINT OF IT, get rid of that ancient attitude or go back to your cave.
10=2
 
SBBRTech
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:15 pm

We weren't allowed to watch television. My parents were so worried that Western influences might take our minds off the most important things -- education and religion -- that we were never allowed to bring any schoolfriends home.

Now, this is what I find specially amusing... if they are that afraid of bad influences from the evil West, why the heck did they go there in the 1st place ? Not all Muslim countries are an economic mess, why not stick to those ?
"I'm beginning to get the hang of this flying business" - C3PO
 
baroque
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:32 pm



Quoting SBBRTech (Reply 36):
Now, this is what I find specially amusing... if they are that afraid of bad influences from the evil West, why the heck did they go there in the 1st place ?

Again, this is more cultural than to do with Islam assuming "they" relates to Muslims. If you take Muslims from a number of countries, a high proportion take what they like from the West and leave what they do not like. Which is much the same as "we" do. I do have a bit of a problem with "we" and "they" as it rather creates a problem by definition.

So your question should be related to cultural adaption rather than religion which is what I suspect you were meaning.

I wonder if you are familiar with the number of Islamic comedians and (yes) comediennes from Islamic countries who practice their art in some western countries.

I have a suggestion, how about a week free from dump on Islam threads? I ask this as an atheist who is getting fed up with the amount of religion.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 2:48 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 35):
integration policy and

you are quite right in many ways, except that your compilation sounds theoretical and NOT up to realities
-
 
SBBRTech
Posts: 403
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 3:34 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 37):
So your question should be related to cultural adaption rather than religion which is what I suspect you were meaning.

I wonder if you are familiar with the number of Islamic comedians and (yes) comediennes from Islamic countries who practice their art in some western countries.

I have a suggestion, how about a week free from dump on Islam threads? I ask this as an atheist who is getting fed up with the amount of religion.

Okay, so you say i'm bashing muslims here? You consider this a question of cultural adaption, having a guy forcing his daughter (a western citizen) to sew back her vagina?
I'm pretty sure this is not a cultural expression from any country, but another crazy procedure condoned by religious crap. In this case, muslim religious crap that they are trying to impose in a territory outside the sharia world.

And just for the record, i'm in the atheists team too and I take no pleasure in badmouthing other's beliefs, i just can't stand more hypocritical bullcrap in the name of holiness.
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baroque
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:00 pm



Quoting SBBRTech (Reply 39):
I'm pretty sure this is not a cultural expression from any country, but another crazy procedure condoned by religious crap. In this case, Muslim religious crap that they are trying to impose in a territory outside the sharia world.

First let us agree that Sharia law is largely a matter of local interpretation. So there is not one Sharia law but many many. Most equally bad as far as I am concerned, and there are plenty of Muslims not too keen on any form of Sharia law.

I don't think it would be difficult to find plenty of Imams who would condemn the "crazy procedure". It is nothing to do with Islam as far as I know. Many countries have expectations in relation to virginity, and some are Islamic, but if that expectation exists it is nothing to do with Islam.

So YES, that op was all about a cultural expectation that is NOT condoned or directly related to "religious crap". Just as female circumcision is not related to Islam although it is practiced in many Islamic countries.

So badmouth away, just not at Islam in this case. Look Islam has plenty of faults (we can probably agree that most religions do) but this does not happen to be one of them. By all means blast away at the truly horrific local superstitions and practices, but just this time, don't attribute it to religion. I am not saying that the girl or her parent might not blame religion, but they are mistaken and just looking for what seems like an excuse. Some societies have practices that are truly astonishing, and many just continue on unremarked. Then again, I dare say we have a few practices that seem astonishing to others.
 
AGM100
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:58 pm

Do not dismiss this , Reading reports from the British General in Basra this type of crap is going on their all the time. Not the surgeries obviously , but the threat to women who show any sign of individualism. I believe that every Muslim in the world realizes that they will have to eventually make a choice. The problem may be the slippery slope of secularism creeping into Islam. Their is bound to be a violent backlash from those in Islam that want it to remain in the 5th century.

I fully expect it to get worse before it gets better. Just speaking recently with my kids Orthodontists who is a Thai Muslim. She said she was very worried about the rise of "old" Islamic standards in her country. She said that their are more and more burkas / Hijabs in her town their. Women are being forced to follow the old teachings and are threatened to do so by the clerics in the the mosque.

Islam is going to have to go though either a awakening ... or a reversion back to the hard-line. Initially the wars actioned after 911 served to rally the old guard ideas within Islam, but now we are starting to hear the more secular Muslims voices. How these groups will learn to accept each other over time remains to be seen. In my opinion ... this eventual clash was a primary goal of the wars. "Forcing" ( Yes force) the Muslim world to reject the theocratic ideas and accept more tolerant (democratic) social ideals is the unspoken goal of these efforts.

By the way props tp King Abdullah for pardoning the rape victim...
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 5:52 pm



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
I believe that every Muslim in the world realizes that they will have to eventually make a choice. The problem may be the slippery slope of secularism creeping into Islam.

-
No, "THEY" do not have to make a choice as millions have done so ages ago and are secularists. But if you expect secularists to try to convince "traditionalists" of modern ways against their will, then you ask too much. Secularism has "crept" into Islam decades ago.
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
Reading reports from the British General in Basra this type of crap is going on their all the time. Not the surgeries obviously , but the threat to women who show any sign of individualism

Women in Iraq had equal rights and had no pressure to wear veils or hijabs in Iraq until 2003 .
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
Their is bound to be a violent backlash from those in Islam that want it to remain

No, it is not "bound to be" but has already taken place. The whole wave of fundamentalism is a reaction to the secularisation in Muslim countries. Fundamentalist terrorism is the "backlash" and has now been a serious matter for 30 years.
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
she was very worried about the rise of "old" Islamic standards in her country. She said that their are more and more burkas / Hijabs in her town

In most Arab countries THIS was the process in the 1980ies and 90ies already. East Asia was hit fairly late.
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
Islam is going to have to go though either a awakening ... or a reversion back to the hard-line. Initially the wars actioned after 911 served to rally the old guard ideas within Islam,

-
the various wars BEFORE 2000 rallied the traditionalists. What came later just was repetitive.
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
now we are starting to hear the more secular Muslims voices

Now ? The Secularists were heard increasingly about from 1985 onwards
-

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
the Muslim world to reject the theocratic ideas

the theocratic ideas WERE rejected decades ago, but not by all. And social progress is a SLOW thing. In Iraq, modern women were forced back by the theocracy introduced after 2003
-
 
AGM100
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:05 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41):
In Iraq, modern women were forced back by the theocracy introduced after 2003

That is because the theocratic (Jihadists) chose to fight us on the streets of their cities. Again , the unfortunate part of the war .

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 41):
the theocratic ideas WERE rejected decades ago, but not by all

I agree it has been a pitched battle , however these ideals always rise to the surface when ever Muslims feel threatened or do not approve of some other religion or country. The idea of Jihad as a rally cry instead of normal political disagreements and conflict resolution is the problem. The jihad puts the follower at odds with his or her god rather than a political disagreement . Until this ends their will be an endless supply of true believers with C4 fashion accessories.
You dig the hole .. I fill the hole . 100% employment !
 
slider
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:06 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 36):
I have a suggestion, how about a week free from dump on Islam threads? I ask this as an atheist who is getting fed up with the amount of religion.

The material just keeps coming...it isn't us. From Teddybear-gate to the teenage girl who was murdered by her Dad for not wearing the hijab, to this barbarism, if you're sick of hearing it as an atheist, I'll tell you it won't stop.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 42):
I agree it has been a pitched battle , however these ideals always rise to the surface when ever Muslims feel threatened or do not approve of some other religion or country. The idea of Jihad as a rally cry instead of normal political disagreements and conflict resolution is the problem. The jihad puts the follower at odds with his or her god rather than a political disagreement . Until this ends their will be an endless supply of true believers with C4 fashion accessories.

Not to mention there is no singular ruling body in Islam to unify and mdoernize the religion.
 
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mariner
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:08 pm



Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 13):
Well another islam bashing thread, getting routine now isn't it?

I am sympathetic to your feelings, but it is what is in the news, and the only way to change anything is by debate.

From time to time, it is in the news that some Muslim communities, especially in Turkey, practise clitoral circumcision of women.

This has decreased a little because it has been discussed - many Muslim men who were brought up with the practise and saw nothing wrong with it have accepted - because of the debate - that it should not happen.

But there has been no debate - because it is not particularly newsworthy - of the situation of some women in Africa, who are not Muslim.

Some tribes in the Rift Valley still practise Phaoronic circumcision. That is the complete removal of the vagina, it is cut out. A twig is put into the wound so that when it heals there is a small hole to pee, but that's it.

There are many documented cases of men cutting open their wives open to get into them on their wedding night.

Now, this should cause outrage in the West, but it doesn't happen. For whatever reason, it is not news, and perhaps there is a pc fear of being seen to condemn ancient tribal customs.

But if the outrage happened, it wouldn't be an attack on the tribes or their religion. It would be an attack on one particular tradition.

So there are going to be a number of culture clashes between some Islamic societies and the West, largely because of the different attitudes to women, as has just happened in Saudi Arabia.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
baroque
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:19 am



Quoting AGM100 (Reply 40):
Their is bound to be a violent backlash from those in Islam that want it to remain in the 5th century.

That would be an interesting development. It seems to be difficult enough to suggest revising the Islam of Muhammad ibn 'Abd Allāh but revising an Islam developed over 70 yeas before his birth is an interesting concept. It must be part of the "declare Islam a Stone Age religion" movement. Sorry, it still arose in the 5th Century and that was in the Iron Age.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 44):
But if the outrage happened, it wouldn't be an attack on the tribes or their religion. It would be an attack on one particular tradition.

Quite. But imagine how it would be written up here. Another barbaric practice from "write in your least liked religions here".

God forfend that I should defend any religion, but it is some traditions that are the most egregious, not the religions. After them come political power plays as we are seeing now in Iraq. And if you did not want to set them loose, Iraq should not have been invaded, well not without an effective plan how to stop them. Holding an election was always going to set the worst forces on the loose and what was worse, give them a sort of legitimacy.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:11 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 44):
This has decreased a little because it has been discussed - many Muslim men who were brought up with the practise and saw nothing wrong with it have accepted - because of the debate - that it should not happen.

But there has been no debate - because it is not particularly newsworthy - of the situation of some women in Africa, who are not Muslim.

Some tribes in the Rift Valley still practise Phaoronic circumcision. That is the complete removal of the vagina, it is cut out. A twig is put into the wound so that when it heals there is a small hole to pee, but that's it.

There are many documented cases of men cutting open their wives open to get into them on their wedding night.

Now, this should cause outrage in the West, but it doesn't happen. For whatever reason, it is not news, and perhaps there is a pc fear of being seen to condemn ancient tribal customs.

But if the outrage happened, it wouldn't be an attack on the tribes or their religion. It would be an attack on one particular tradition.

So there are going to be a number of culture clashes between some Islamic societies and the West, largely because of the different attitudes to women, as has just happened in Saudi Arabia.

My second ex-wife, the woman from Sierra Leone, West Africa, had undergone traditional circumcission, which is apparently quite common there among the Muslim tribes (even though for the rest of their belief they are much more relaxed than their Arab brethren).
She claimed that it was done when she was 18 and she agreed to it because it was her tribe's custom. Actually they removed the small labia and the tip of the clitoris.
Interestingly it is mostly the women who are in favour of keeping this tradition alive, claiming that it reduces promiscuity and prevents STD's (the Sierra Leoninan men I knew happily shagged uncircumcised women, and some were married to Germans).
Also, the female circumcision is being carried out exclusively by the women's secret societies, where men are excluded.
The Christian population of this country did not carry out this procedure and, with more and more influence of western culture, especially in the cities, and greater awareness, it is dying out, same as polygamy (according to the customs in Serra Leone, a Muslim man can take up to four wives, BUT he has to treat them all equally and he has to provide an independent household for each of them. This would work in the village, where each wife gets a hut of her own, plus a few fields to feed herself, but it is impossible in a city where a family might depend on the single income of the man).
BTW, being circumcised in this manner did not mean that my ex could not reach an orgasm, it just took a greater efford and stamina on my side.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
zak
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:35 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 37):
you are quite right in many ways, except that your compilation sounds theoretical and NOT up to realities

please be more precise, since i'd like to hear and challenge or agree with your position on this matter  Wink

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 46):
....

Jan

you have experience in some uncommon things, hats off, i wouldnt want to trade some of that experience you describe though. sierra leone, ireland, phillipines, you surely had a diverse life so far  Wink
10=2
 
slider
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:24 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 44):
So there are going to be a number of culture clashes between some Islamic societies and the West, largely because of the different attitudes to women, as has just happened in Saudi Arabia.

That's an understatement.

It's nothing short of a full blown clash of civilizations.
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:50 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 34):
integration policy

ok, step by step
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the lack of integration policy and misconception of realistic soft integration is a widespread problem in all firstworld countries
<> "Integration policies" are to be done locally in view of local realities, AND have to take into account the nationalities of the immigrants in question
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. i would say the least of an issue is the u.s., whilst the "soft" approach of most european countries can be considered a clear failure
<> difficult to say what you regard as the "soft approach", but when you see the figures, for instance more than 35 million people of Arab origin in Western Europe, more than 10 million people of Turkish origin in Western Europe, more than 10% of Kosovaris living in Switzerland alone, etc etc, then you have to appreciate that a vast majority of all the immigrants integrate and assimilate rather nicely
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the appeasement of practical medieval situations in most immigration families is to blame for this
<> I might say that what you refer to here is a minority, but much depends not just on countries but on regions of these countries. You might realize that people from Istanbul, Izmir, Cairo, Alexandria, Tunis, Oran etc do NOT have as much problems as people from remote provinces of these countries.
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, there have been efforts to enforce women learning the local language
<> most immigrants in reality DO learn the local language and the "Secondos" very often no longer have a decent command of the languages of their origin
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and give more or less mandatory education to women on their rights are slowly progressing, but it will take a long time to establish an "equal rights" culture within immigrants from muslim backgrounds.
<> here again, as above, differences not only exist in regard to countries and regions but even in regard to the families. And you have to realize that modern families take the oldfashioned views of conservative neighbours into account. DISapprovement possibly on both sides, but usually people try to co-exist and arrange themselves
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it has to be clear that when they accept the opportunity for wealth in a western country, the first price to pay is accepting, with all its implications, the rights and equality that comes with it.
<> this is a theoretical and abstract philosophy rather beyond people who are semi-illiterate anyway and whose knowledge of "Western" countries has its limits
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if one argues that this is against their culture, all i got to say is OF COURSE THATS THE POINT OF AND Irtysh-Avia (Kazakhstan)">IT, get rid of that ancient attitude or go back to your cave.
<> the vital point is that many people get to "the West" simply for political or economic reasons, and do not have much choice. And no, NO chance to return to their caves for most, even for many who would love to do so !
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