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ME AVN FAN
Posts: 12970
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:55 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 44):
So there are going to be a number of culture clashes between some Islamic societies and the West, largely because of the different attitudes to women, as has just happened in Saudi Arabia.

-
A) Saudi Arabia and Iran (possibly Pakistan and Sudan in the second line) are the EXTREME
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B) There are NOT "going to be" but already are. And most culture clashes are INSIDE Muslim countries (societies) between the traditionalists/fundamentalists on one side and the religious liberals and the secularist liberals on the other side. But there are not clearcut division lines in this either. And ....
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C) many regions of "Western" countries in social things are more, far more conservative than modern areas of Muslim countries
-
 
zak
Posts: 1926
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:27 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 49):
<> "Integration policies" are to be done locally in view of local realities, AND have to take into account the nationalities of the immigrants in question

full agreement there

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 49):
<> difficult to say what you regard as the "soft approach", but when you see the figures, for instance more than 35 million people of Arab origin in Western Europe, more than 10 million people of Turkish origin in Western Europe, more than 10% of Kosovaris living in Switzerland alone, etc etc, then you have to appreciate that a vast majority of all the immigrants integrate and assimilate rather nicely

soft appraoch is indeed a very misleading way to put it, i simply wanted to keep it short.
its more a "human" issue, as in if you go to the u.s., you are going to work or end up on the street, in europe, the social networks of the government will take care of you even if uninsured, you are given alot more leeway, there is a softer approach to everything in regard to this. in europe, there is less of a national pride, at least the actively displayed, there is less of an integrative culture. you end up with situations as happens frequently in my surroundings:
those second generation muslims, say female, are by the family not allowed to have non turkish/whatever boyfriends, yet of course do so but hide it.
the whole hypocrisy on immigration, especially by my very own party of greens, is just extreme in europe.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 49):
<> most immigrants in reality DO learn the local language and the "Secondos" very often no longer have a decent command of the languages of their origin

of course, taksim square is not compareable to some village in east turkey. the emigrated workers are however mostly from rural and poorer areas, hence this group is disproportionally represented in the immigration and associated prejudices in europe. saying most was a very bad choice though, i should have said rather small but still noticeable minority within the immigrants.

the women at home, being shielded from the local culture, are quite behind in most countries. luckily, this gap is reduced by huge margin each generation

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 49):
You might realize that people from Istanbul, Izmir, Cairo, Alexandria, Tunis, Oran etc do NOT have as much problems as people from remote provinces of these countries.



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 49):
<> this is a theoretical and abstract philosophy rather beyond people who are semi-illiterate anyway and whose knowledge of "Western" countries has its limits

of course, i did not attempt to put the blame onto immigrants, but the countries, who should have reflected this issue and anticipated a proper immigration. the conservatives in europe always dreamed of getting rid of people afterwards, hence this was never done. only now this is being done on broader scale, with some success that is very good to see.

Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 49):
the vital point is that many people get to "the West" simply for political or economic reasons, and do not have much choice. And no, NO chance to return to their caves for most, even for many who would love to do so !

i agree, even more so that they were often legally allowed to the western european countries for economic reasons, to exploit them as cheap workers. generally, speaking of legal immigration here, the blame for the first generation was with the governments of europe, but by now, i am gladly for enforcing refusing legal immigration to people who do not agree with said principles of equality. it is of course important to recognize that these immigrants usually have no issues with that, since the mountain farmer legal immigrant going to work in the factory is a thing of the past, hightech people have taken over.
10=2
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:37 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 51):
you are going to work or end up on the street, in europe, the social networks of the government will take care of you even if uninsured

but if an immigrant wants to achieve whatever, and wants to support his own folks home and his home country, the social networks will not do, and so, most try to get a better deal

Quoting Zak (Reply 51):
less of a national pride

hardly. Europeans have MORE national pride than US-Americans, but the blunt style of nationalism so cherished by US-Americans outserved in Europe in the 1000 years between 1933 and 1945

Quoting Zak (Reply 51):
whole hypocrisy on immigration, especially by my very own party of greens, is just extreme in europe.

wrong party

Quoting Zak (Reply 51):
to exploit them as cheap workers

"cheap workers" they may be in the eyes of "Westerners", but people taking up with whatever in order to get ahead is how they see themselves
 
bravo45
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:32 am



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
I completely agree, there are screwballs in whatever religion . . . fortunately, I don't necessarily practive a religion except that of self-preservation . . . every one of them ought to be brought to light and offenders - doning anything in the name of God, or Allah, or whomever - jailed.

I agree, and I am for strict punishments. BTW talking about harsh punishments I have a disagreement with you that I mentioned on appropriate threads but you never responded. I won't get into it here, but hope to clear it up sometime.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Still of all the bastardized processes i've seen having ones hymen reattached - or worse yet, having ones clitoris cut out . . . well . . . that's bizarre . . . simply bizarre. Like I said, don't see the Southern Baptists doing that . . . although, I'm sure my ex-Mother-In-Law would have loved those practices.

Well like I said, I'd keep you in mind for when I come across some more stories.

And as I am saying that bringing religion or mentioning Islam regarding this sory is wrong, I am glad to provide you an example of another thread currently active and actually started by a familiar user.  Smile Modern Day Slavery - Again (by ANCFlyer Dec 17 2007 in Non Aviation)
No mention of religion as it should be, although just as strong a case, if not stronger could have been made there too. Thats my point, hope you see it.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 44):
I am sympathetic to your feelings, but it is what is in the news, and the only way to change anything is by debate.

I can agree with that, but only if its fair. You can't single out one thing or take it out of context.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 44):
From time to time, it is in the news that some Muslim communities, especially in Turkey, practise clitoral circumcision of women.

And you, maybe out of ignorance did not mention that the same Turkey who you are implying is practicing extreme Islamic stuff has banned the Hijab. So now you see when I say the debate ought to be fair?
Lets keep the religion out where it ought not to be blamed, Islam prohibits out of marriage relations period. No difference between men and women. And since this lady had not adhered to that teaching, no operation can make for it. It was her choice thanks to the cultural (if not personal) pressures. Can't blame it on Islam period. See my first reply on this thread, post number 6.
 
bravo45
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:35 pm



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
I( have yet - to date - read about a Christian family stoning their daugher to death because she was raped. I have not experienced - in al lthe Southern Baptist BS I've been exposed to - a requirement to get one's hymen 'reattached.'.

Again, nothing to do with Islam.

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 27):
Like I said, don't see the Southern Baptists doing that

Cultural differences like I said above. Talking about Baptists, just came across something which reminds me, I don't think you'd be proud of a certain Westboro Baptist Church. I've never seen anyone trashing/blaming it on Christianity.

I hope you do comment on my last few posts.
 
jacobin777
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:37 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
Its a cultural issue.

 checkmark 

Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 8):
based on the antiquated stone age laws the Mulsim community has regarding women



Quoting ANCFlyer (Reply 21):
I suspect you'll respect mine.

 whistleblower ..opinion(s) are respected when there is a decent argument tied to it (even though one doesn't agree with it)...you are posting incorrect rubbish...

......there are no laws regarding this.. no ..I challenge you to find this so-called "stone-age law" (i.e-of a girl having to have said procedure done..since this is what the thread is regarding) in any Muslim country....if you find one, I'll be more than glad to admit I'm wrong....

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 13):
Well another islam bashing thread, getting routine now isn't it?

...funny (sad really)...I rarely frequent the nonav. board but it seems as if things just haven't changed.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 20):

I don't like commenting on other peoples personal life ANC, not my place. Interesting that you call this a topic of interest, everytime we have a topic on the US foreign policy I hear you say the same thing what I said.

....... checkmark ...its called hypocricy..

..I think the next time a Jew or a Christian (or any other religion, race, creed, etc.) does something "out of line" we should start a thread..incessantly...I wonder how many threads will be deleted...
"Up the Irons!"
 
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mariner
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:02 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 53):
And you, maybe out of ignorance did not mention that the same Turkey who you are implying is practicing extreme Islamic stuff has banned the Hijab.

Why would you assume ignorance?

I was not discussing the hijab or Government actions, I was pointing out traditions among certain groups, and particularly, non-Muslim groups in Africa.

This is a matter of tradition, not of religion. Female circumcision was happening a long time before Islam.

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 55):
I think the next time a Jew or a Christian (or any other religion, race, creed, etc.) does something "out of line" we should start a thread.

Yes, you should. Go for it.

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
jacobin777
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:42 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 56):
Yes, you should. Go for it.

I was being sarcastic...unlike many here, I don't "bash" people of other faith just because some ignorant people who happen to be of a particular faith take vacuous actions...

apropos...first you incorrectly accuse me as an "Airbus A380 basher" ....now here...any particular reason you feel inclined to be truculent or at the very least, a bit more confrontational...?
"Up the Irons!"
 
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mariner
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:11 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 57):
you feel inclined to be truculent or at the very least, a bit more confrontational...?

How is agreeing with you confrontational?

I am puzzled you perceive it as that.

???

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
Joined: Sat Sep 11, 2004 6:29 pm

RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:41 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 58):
Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 57):
you feel inclined to be truculent or at the very least, a bit more confrontational...?

How is agreeing with you confrontational?

....by the fact you have recently been "singling me out" on a number of occasions ..which I do not believe you used to do....regardless of subject (including A380 threads)....

Kind Regards.....
"Up the Irons!"
 
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mariner
Posts: 19473
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:59 pm

Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 59):
.by the fact you have recently been "singling me out" on a number of occasions

I have disagreed with you for several years on one unrelated matter - but not here.

If you were being sarcastic here, I agree with your sarcasm.

If you were not being sarcastic, I agree with your sentiment.

I apologise unreservedly if my words - here - have offended you. I am completely baffled as to how agreement with you causes such offense.

mariner

[Edited 2007-12-22 12:05:44]
aeternum nauta
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:59 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 60):

I have disagreed with you for several years on one unrelated matter - but not here.

..we have disagree for a few years..that I can agree on...however, again, I believe there is a change in the way you have addressed my comments...I certainly could be wrong...I don't have a problem with it...

Quoting Mariner (Reply 60):
If you were being sarcastic here, I agree with your sarcasm.

...I'm glad we finally agreed after a while...

Quoting Mariner (Reply 60):
If you were not being sarcastic, I agree with your sentiment.

I was being sarcastic..

Again, I don't "bash" other races/religions based on the action of a few who belong to that particular race/religion...I believe everyone should be looked at on an individual basis.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 60):
I apologise unreservedly if my words - here - have offended you. I am completely baffled as to how agreement with you causes such offense.

...FWIW Mariner, I was only curious as to why I believed (or perceived) you were singling me out in particular.....if you say you aren't then I shall take your word for it....no apologies needed... Smile
"Up the Irons!"
 
baroque
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Sun Dec 23, 2007 4:05 pm



Quoting Jacobin777 (Reply 61):
Quoting Mariner (Reply 60):
If you were being sarcastic here, I agree with your sarcasm.

...I'm glad we finally agreed after a while...

Quoting Mariner (Reply 60):
If you were not being sarcastic, I agree with your sentiment.

I was being sarcastic..

Well there were a few folk earlier in the thread indicating much the same sentiments and, as Mariner and a number of others have been trying to point out whatever the practice comes from, it is not Islam. There were also a number suggesting that it was time for a week free from dumping on Islam. I usually have a fairly good sarcasm detector and I have to admit I took your suggestion at face value but one should never read too much into words I guess.

Still and all, at this time of celebrating whichever solstice you are nearest to, let us all have a happy few days free from dumping on anything or anyone.
 
ANCFlyer
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:14 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 53):
I agree, and I am for strict punishments. BTW talking about harsh punishments I have a disagreement with you that I mentioned on appropriate threads but you never responded. I won't get into it here, but hope to clear it up sometime.

Sorry, took a bit before I got back to you . . . . I've been pretty much off the net until this morning.

Feel free to drop me a PM on those disagreements . . . be glad to give you my thoughts and trade ideas.

Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 54):
Cultural differences like I said above. Talking about Baptists, just came across something which reminds me, I don't think you'd be proud of a certain Westboro Baptist Church. I've never seen anyone trashing/blaming it on Christianity.

Westboro Baptist Church is an abomination of anything Christian.

Just like the Islamic Terrorists are an abomination of anything Islam.

I understand that.

Keep in mind, that I didn't bring the word Muslim into this thread . . . it was the headline off the news article. Furthermore, as I mentioned before - cultural differences aside - I find it bizarre - personally - that this practice is accepted. Curtural difference? Probably. My opinion is, it's still bizarre.
FOR THOSE THAT FOUGHT FOR IT, FREEDOM HAS A FLAVOR THE PROTECTED WILL NEVER KNOW OR UNDERSTAND
 
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cedars747
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 25, 2007 4:44 pm



Quoting Bravo45 (Reply 6):
My thoughts exactly.. more so about the title of your thread.

It's amazing how people confuse religion with tradition !


Alex!!!
Tengo una pasion por la aviacion /لدي شغف للطيران / I have a passion for aviation /Jeg har en lidenskap for luftfart/ J'ai une passion pour l'aviation.
 
BritPilot777
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:01 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 28):

She is a U.K. resident and so of course used the NHS for the purpose.

But why should she be allowed to have such a procedure done on the NHS?! Is it a matter of life or death!? When there are people on a waiting list for life threatening conditions the NHS is used for this ludicrous reason! Complete and utter farce! She can do whatever the hell she wants using private services, but not the NHS where millions of us have effectively paid for her future family to think she's a virgin!


BritPilot777
Forever Flight
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:06 pm



Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 65):
But why should she be allowed to have such a procedure done on the NHS?! Is it a matter of life or death!? When there are people on a waiting list for life threatening conditions the NHS is used for this ludicrous reason!

While I hardly can help you in regard to the priorities of the British NHS I have to remind you that surgery on life threatening conditions is more difficult and needs TOP equipment and TOP personnel, while the surgery above can apparently be done by "standard" personnel any day.
-
And why should she NOT be allowed to have it done on the NHS ? I am sure that much is done with not more justification.
 
BritPilot777
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:28 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 66):
And why should she NOT be allowed to have it done on the NHS ? I am sure that much is done with not more justification

I think the question is WHY should she be allowed to have it on the NHS!? What benefit apart from to her future in laws is there to anyone with her having this procedure done on taxpayers money! Religious and cultural traditions should not dictate what procedures should be allowed to be conducted on the NHS!

She slept with men of her choice prior to marriage, now because she gave it up easily the British taxpayers should pay out so her in laws feel better about themselves?!!?

So WHY should she be allowed this procedure to take place on the NHS!? Or do we feel if the NHS had said no their would have been an uproar with people saying "Religious Discrimination" or "They Say No Because She's Muslim". It's got nothing to do with what religion she is or her faith but it solely comes down to a a complete utter waste of manpower and resources!

BritPilot777
Forever Flight
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:38 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 66):
And why should she NOT be allowed to have it done on the NHS ?

Can you get your boobs/nose done (I am talking about purely aesthetics reasons, not medical ones) on the NHS?
 
BritPilot777
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Tue Dec 25, 2007 8:51 pm



Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 68):
Can you get your boobs/nose done (I am talking about purely aesthetics reasons, not medical ones) on the NHS?

Boob jobs on the NHS are not usually for cosmetic reasons. Reduction due to curving of the spine. Enhancements are extremely rare unless it is found that the lack of boobs causes you mental anguish (shady area but that's what the local health authorities say).

BritPilot777
Forever Flight
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:58 am



Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 67):
I think the question is WHY should she be allowed to have it on the NHS!? What benefit apart from to her future in laws is there to anyone with her having this procedure done on taxpayers money! Religious and cultural traditions should not dictate what procedures should be allowed to be conducted on the NHS!

-
It is a social matter and good for the community and the neighbourhood and so IS well within the range of social services. In Switzerland, the health insurance would take over most (extent depending on company and contract and hospital) of the costs involved.
-

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 67):
So WHY should she be allowed this procedure to take place on the NHS!?

To say it again, you of course can demand, for instance via your local Member of the House of Commons, that the relevant legislation gets changed, but ought to be aware of the point that in case of such a change also other services for girls and young women will get cancelled out, just due to legal consequence.
-

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 69):
the lack of boobs causes you mental anguish

THIS is just one example of what no longer could be done by the NHS in case of the change you may have in mind
 
BritPilot777
Posts: 998
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:15 pm



Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 70):
It is a social matter and good for the community and the neighbourhood

Your kidding right? Her neighbours lives are going to improve because she's now a born again virgin? Don't talk shit please it's embarrassing for yourself.

Her having had sex with someone and now wanting to be a "virgin" again IS NOT A HEALTH MATTER! It is a SOCIAL and RELIGIOUS matter and therefore should not be allowed UNDER THE NHS!

I'm guessing your the sort of person who regardless of what is said and what arguments are put forward will still agree with this lady having this procedure done under the NHS and therefore making use of hard earned money from us British taxpayers. Seeing as though your so for her having it done, from now on any other ladies wishing to have this service we'll send to you and you can fund it, how does that sound?  Yeah sure

This is complete and utter nonsense and again a complete waste of manpower and resources!

BritPilot777
Forever Flight
 
ME AVN FAN
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:30 pm



Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 71):
Quoting ME AVN FAN (Reply 70):
It is a social matter and good for the community and the neighbourhood

Your kidding right? Her neighbours lives are going to improve because she's now a born again virgin? Don't talk shit please it's embarrassing for yourself.

Simply relax. It is half and half. I simply fail to take the matter so deadly seriously. Such minor surgeries cost the medical service a tiny fraction of any heart operation. AND the "creation" of such a "reborn" virgin helps social peace in her environment and so is good for the neighbourhood and also for whomever commercially is involved with her WIDEST family. And oh no no no, I do NOT see any personal or whatever embarassment.
-

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 71):
Her having had sex with someone and now wanting to be a "virgin" again IS NOT A HEALTH MATTER! It is a SOCIAL and RELIGIOUS matter and therefore should not be allowed UNDER THE NHS!

-
True, but to do surgeries is business for a surgeon. I cannot quite see a social street worker conducting this
 Wow!  Big grin
-

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 71):
agree with this lady having this procedure done under the NHS and therefore making use of hard earned money from us British taxpayers. Seeing as though your so for her having it done, from now on any other ladies wishing to have this service we'll send to you and you can fund it, how does that sound? Yeah sure

-
I agree with the right of women to have assistance under the "cover" of social/medical services in such regard, even if you rightly might doubt their wisdom. And I do NOT believe that it is such a burden for the taxpayers. I had cancer surgery in 1988 and already in the 1990ies agreed with the doctor to have some tests reduced in favour of the taxpayers and myself (senseless if done too often) and cancer surgery costs many many times as much as such tiny cosmetic things
-

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 71):
now on any other ladies wishing to have this service we'll send to you and you can fund it, how does that sound?

-
you can send them to me, and I will check up who can be obliged to take over the resulting costs. I will of course add
A) the postages and the time used
B) a 33% premium for my efforts
C) an 11% premium for my company
--- cheers !
-

Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 71):
This is complete and utter nonsense and again a complete waste of manpower and resources!

you are unnecessarily agitated and excited about what for the doctors is a minor surgery somewhere in between
 
jacobin777
Posts: 12262
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RE: Some UK Muslims Still In The Stone Age

Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:17 pm



Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 71):
and RELIGIOUS matter



Quoting BritPilot777 (Reply 71):
Don't talk shit please it's embarrassing for yourself.

...considering its been stated ad nauseam that it is not a religious matter....seems like you are doing a good job yourself of embarrassing yourself....
"Up the Irons!"

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