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MadameConcorde
Topic Author
Posts: 9265
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:08 pm

Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:09 am

Descendants of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse break away from US

WASHINGTON (AFP) The Lakota Indians, who gave the world legendary warriors Sitting Bull and Crazy Horse, have withdrawn from treaties with the United States, leaders said Wednesday.

"We are no longer citizens of the United States of America and all those who live in the five-state area that encompasses our country are free to join us," long-time Indian rights activist Russell Means told a handful of reporters and a delegation from the Bolivian embassy, gathered in a church in a run-down neighborhood of Washington for a news conference.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5iVC1KMTOgwiSoMQyT2LwZc9HyAgA

Now what's interesting here is that President Wladimir Putin threatens to recognize the Lakota Sioux Indian Tribe as an independent Nation.

Considering what he has said about Kosovo:

Russia warns the West over Kosovo independence

MOSCOW (AFP) Russia warned Monday that Kosovo could slip into "uncontrollable crisis," ahead of a UN Security Council showdown over the Serbian province's Western-backed push for independence.

Throwing down the gauntlet, the foreign ministry warned in a statement that the "indulgence" of some countries in allowing Kosovo to move towards independence could have "serious negative consequences" for stability.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5h226uWY3bcl9aRcMsVU67ZYt6c8A

Putin was reported to have told one of his top aides that "two can play at this game", in an obvious reference to the American President whom President Putin blames as being behind the machinations to increase instability along Russia's borders with Eastern Europe.



[Edited 2007-12-20 02:13:06]
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:22 am

interesting, i did not know the u.s. actually bullied the indians into treaties back then during the "genocide is fun" days.
from the claims made in the article, i dont dispute that they doublechecked their legal grounds, of course it is not to be expected that law will be respected in this case, but surely a good point to make.
it will be interesting to see how the u.s. goes about its past, we in europe certainly figured by now that jumping over ones own shadow is usually the most difficult thing to accomplish.

"The treaties signed with the United States are merely "worthless words on worthless paper," the Lakota freedom activists say on their website."

sounds about right, kind of reminds me of the kind of treaties and contracts many people tribes in africa and south america are "invited to voluntarily sign" to this day to our very own eu+us companies
10=2
 
MadameConcorde
Topic Author
Posts: 9265
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RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:27 am

The Lakota Sioux are credited with one of the American Indians greatest defeat of US Military Forces in the Indian Wars by defeating the US Civil War Hero George Armstrong Custer and his Seventh Calvary in June, 1876 at the battle of Little Big Horn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Armstrong_Custer

Quoting Zak (Reply 1):
it will be interesting to see how the u.s. goes about its past

There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Queso
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:00 pm



Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
"We are no longer citizens of the United States of America

Fine, then they can just give up their cars and all of their electrical appliances and all of the other things the evils of modern American culture have brought to them.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Thread starter):
gathered in a church in a run-down neighborhood of Washington for a news conference.

And they can damned well walk home, too. No taking a fancy flying machine that takes off of and lands on "stolen" lands.

P.S., there are laws against segregation, they can't even do it to themselves!
 
User avatar
Coal
Posts: 2584
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 11:14 am

RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:10 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 3):
Fine, then they can just give up their cars and all of their electrical appliances and all of the other things the evils of modern American culture have brought to them.

So should all other non-US citizens, according to your logic  Yeah sure

Quoting Queso (Reply 3):
And they can damned well walk home, too. No taking a fancy flying machine that takes off of and lands on "stolen" lands.

Again, what does this have to do with anything? Considering most things are made in China nowadays, your logic really makes no sense.

Cheers
Coal
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Queso
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 3:21 pm



Quoting Coal (Reply 4):
So should all other non-US citizens, according to your logic

Why is that? Nobody else is declaring themselves non-citizens.

Quoting Coal (Reply 4):
Again, what does this have to do with anything?

If they want to renounce their citizenship because of something that happened hundreds of years ago, they should not benefit from anything that the "evildoers" have developed in that period of time.
 
zak
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:17 pm

RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:34 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 5):
Why is that? Nobody else is declaring themselves non-citizens.



Quoting Queso (Reply 5):
If they want to renounce their citizenship because of something that happened hundreds of years ago, they should not benefit from anything that the "evildoers" have developed in that period of time.

pardon me french, but genocide is not "something", it is not something out of the box that has "not a big deal" written on it. we are talking about a close to extinction of the original inhabitants a whole continent, putting them into "camps" and taking all their land alongside with the destruction of the resources and economic infrastructure their whole civilization was based on.

the unreflective attitude of people such as yours is a big reason why action such as theirs is worth pursueing and supporting.
i wonder what your reaction would be if a german would call the holocaust "something that happened ~65 years ago, have the jews go somewhere if you they arent ok that it happend and leave germany". in the case of germany, it is not ok, it will never be ok, but things are being reflected by both sides, thanks to the genuine interest of a) the germans to make up for it and admitting the "something" and b) the victims of the shoa and their offspring having the time to first recognize and then start accepting the genuine nature of the german effort.
10=2
 
searpqx
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RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:38 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 5):
If they want to renounce their citizenship because of something that happened hundreds of years ago, they should not benefit from anything that the "evildoers" have developed in that period of time.

What does citizenship have to do with using inventions? Should the colonists have forgone ships, candles, firearms, etc., when they declared independence from England? How about when Texas declared independence from Mexico?

Don't get me wrong, I don't support this declaration, but your reaction doesn't make much sense.

Its going to be interesting, and more than a little disquieting to see how this plays out.
"The two most common elements in the universe are Hydrogen and stupidity"
 
Queso
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:46 pm



Quoting Zak (Reply 6):
we are talking about a close to extinction of the original inhabitants a whole continent, putting them into "camps" and taking all their land alongside with the destruction of the resources and economic infrastructure their whole civilization was based on.

That's apparently some pretty effective propaganda you've been exposed to.

Quoting Zak (Reply 6):
the unreflective attitude of people such as yours is a big reason why action such as theirs is worth pursueing and supporting.

And what good will it do? What's done is done. Ever heard of moving forward? Each generation, while learning from the past, should let go of it and do what they can to be less divisive. Where does it end? Should those who have descendants from the Roman Empire be held responsible and return land from the conquests of their forebearers?

Quoting Zak (Reply 6):
it is not ok, it will never be ok

I know, nothing is ever OK for some people. That's why the Middle East has always been and always will be such a great disaster in human relations.
 
kmh1956
Posts: 2854
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RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:48 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 8):
That's apparently some pretty effective propaganda you've been exposed to.



Quoting Queso (Reply 8):
Ever heard of moving forward? Each generation, while learning from the past, should let go of it

Vast numbers of Native Americans still live in poverty on the reservations to this day, as it is the only place to preserve a rich culture and heritage which has been all but obliterated. Let go of the past? I think not.
'Somebody tell me why I'm on my own if there's a soulmate for everyone' :Natasha Bedingfield
 
Queso
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:00 pm



Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 9):
Vast numbers of Native Americans still live in poverty on the reservations to this day

While their brethren are successful business leaders, House and Senate representatives and "normal working people" just like anybody else so that is a very lame excuse.

Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 9):
it is the only place to preserve a rich culture and heritage which has been all but obliterated.

What about my culture? If it's not taking me where I want to go and giving me what I need to survive I'm out of there! It's monumentally stupid to risk your survival and well-being just for the sake of "culture". You only have one life, there's no reason not to make all you can of it.

There are reasons for many of the failed cultures in the history of the world. Lack of adaptability is the primary reason.
 
MDorBust
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RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:06 pm

Well gee, this should go well. A tiny land locked nation in the middle of a gaint super power who happens to be the controlling power for all your transportation and utility needs.

I don't suppose the Lakota happen to be signatory to NAFTA... Welcome to some very crippling import/export regulations guys.

I don't think they've thought this cunning plan through all the way.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
LH459
Posts: 793
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 2:41 am

RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:16 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 8):
That's apparently some pretty effective propaganda you've been exposed to.

 redflag 

No propaganda there! That, my friend, is the history of the USA! This is the history that I and many others learned in high school. It's shameful, but it happened, and it must be recognized! The German example which Zak presents is valid. I'm half German myself, and grew up going back and forth between the two countries. It's always struck me how selective Americans are regarding their history--many simply ignore the shameful chapters.

Quoting Queso (Reply 8):
Ever heard of moving forward? Each generation, while learning from the past, should let go of it and do what they can to be less divisive.

This is valid--I'm completely in favor of moving forward. The past shouldn't control our lives, but we MUST be mindful of its mistakes and ensure that they aren't repeated.

Now, as for the topic at hand, if the Lakota want to do this it's their prerogative. I understand that they're trying to make a statement, but I don't think this will do them any good in the long run. The Lakota nation is (sadly) among the poorest of the remaining indigenous communities in North America; perhaps they believe this will help break the devastating cycle of poverty in which they find themselves.
"I object to violence because when it appears to do good, the good is temporary; the evil it does is permanent" - Ghandi
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:23 pm



Quoting LH459 (Reply 12):
The Lakota nation is (sadly) among the poorest of the remaining indigenous communities in North America; perhaps they believe this will help break the devastating cycle of poverty in which they find themselves.

I have a very simple and honest question: if the Lakota tribe is trying to live like they did 200 years ago, are they living in poverty or are they preserving their heritage?

"The treaties have been "repeatedly violated in order to steal our culture, our land and our ability to maintain our way of life," the reborn freedom movement says."
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:30 pm



Quoting LH459 (Reply 12):
The German example which Zak presents is valid.

Except that the Jews weren't busy having wars amongst themselves and happily slaughtering other tribes of jews when the Germans showed up.

Why are the American Indians always portrayed as a happy homoegenous group holding hands with the deer, bear and buffalo around a campfire singing kumbiya?

The American Indians had plenty of wars, stole each others land, and took each other as slaves. White man just did it better than they did.
"I KICKED BURNING TERRORIST SO HARD IN BALLS THAT I TORE A TENDON" - Alex McIlveen
 
MaidensGator
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:02 pm

RE: Descendants Of Sitting Bull, Crazy Horse Break Awa

Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:40 pm



Quoting Kmh1956 (Reply 9):
Vast numbers of Native Americans still live in poverty on the reservations to this day, as it is the only place to preserve a rich culture and heritage which has been all but obliterated

While many other Native Americans live in relative wealth on their reservations, creating a rich new heritage based on bingo and casino gambling...
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers.

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