Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7
 
Queso
Topic Author
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:23 pm

In the spirit of the Ultimate Bundesliga and Never Ending Peter Max and Self Picture threads, I am starting this thread to discuss gun control matters since it seems like we either always have one going or other threads run off-topic and end up as a gun control debate and end up getting locked. Since I am the thread starter, I will state that the only way this thread will be considered by me to be off-topic is if it (or a subsequent thread) does not involve some kind of gun discussion or the use of guns in self-defense and legal aspects. That should leave it open enough to keep it from getting locked.

Forum rules are in effect as always, just play by the rules and nobody gets hurt (and maybe the thread doesn't get locked).

My vision for this is that it carries over into a part 2, part 3 and so on. Current news items can be brought up and discussed until somebody pukes or gets banned because they didn't follow the forum rules.

I would ask that the moderators PLEASE give users of this thread fair warning if they are getting close to the point of having the thread locked before just locking or shitcanning the thread. I am trying to help by starting this thread and I hope that we can all cooperate to continue the discussions we enjoy but also having a moderately safe "catch-all" place where we can do it. Fair enough?

OK, I'll start. Let's continue the discussion we always seem to have about what "fair" gun control laws would be and let the thread progress from there. I think that's controversial enough to get things started, right?

Edited to fix a typo in the title. What a dip!  Yeah sure

[Edited 2007-12-20 13:25:09]
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:35 pm

Fair gun control laws?

Oxymoron.

Users could be licensed, as with automobiles or other dangerous items, and that I'd have zero problem with as long as the license fees were minimal.

Ownership restrictions, I believe, are unconstitutional and should not be on the table. Law abiding citizens are not the problem, and the law breakers will always have access.

Firearms restriction laws affect almost no one but the law abiding citizens who cause almost none of the problems.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:41 pm

Thousands of gun control laws, scum and miscreants that aren't allowed to have them still do. Adding another thousand or so laws won't help one bit... especially when the people who write the laws think that a barrel shroud is that shoulder thing that goes up..

Time to scrap the whole damn mess, allow people who can pass a background check and basic skills demonstrations to own and carry whatever they want, and enforce harsh penalties for the use of a firearm in a crime.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:55 pm

Well I've never understood why some paragraph written in the days that a blunderbuss was king means that everyone in America can have AK47s, patriot missiles and nu-cle-ar weapons.

Mind you, this is probably a very good thing. Darwin theory at work, and all that. Doesn't bother me, just keep pointing inwards, thank you very much.
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 7:28 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:57 pm

He we go again. I don't believe in guns. They are the devil!!  cheeky 
 
Springbok747
Posts: 3993
Joined: Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:13 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:59 pm

Quite simply there are no fair gun control laws. Gun control will only affect law abiding citizens. Criminals will always find ways to get weapons. This whole 'gun control' thing is BS crap.

We have very strict gun laws in this country, but people still get shot, and guess what, most of the people involved in these incidents (those doing the shooting and those getting shot) are gang members using illegal weapons. Legal gun owners dont cause any problems, its these scum with their illegal weapons causing all the problems. How do you control those? Certainly not by controlling legal guns. Anybody who thinks gun control works is a f*cking moron.

Edited for spelling.

[Edited 2007-12-20 14:14:06]
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:00 pm



Quoting ANother (Reply 3):
Well I've never understood why some paragraph written in the days that a blunderbuss was king means that everyone in America can have AK47s, patriot missiles and nu-cle-ar weapons

Does that mean that our other freedoms are outmoded?
 
IFEMaster
Posts: 4164
Joined: Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:17 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:04 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):
Does that mean that our other freedoms are outmoded?

Here's a question...

How come I have the right to own a gun, but it's illegal for me to own a bomb?
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:05 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):
Does that mean that our other freedoms are outmoded?

Yup, the internet isn't actually free speach... only movable block printing presses and quills are.

To expand... The 2nd Amendment was writen, and has been interpreted by the SCOTUS to have the intent of allowing for the ownership of weapons of a common military use. Meaning, the AK-47 is exactly what the 2A protects.
 
ANother
Posts: 1833
Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2005 2:47 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:06 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 6):
Does that mean that our other freedoms are outmoded?

Possibly. For example your free speech freedom allows the swastika to be displayed, while in other countries that is a crime. I'm not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing - but perhaps, yes, these things need to be looked at from time to time.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:07 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 7):
How come I have the right to own a gun, but it's illegal for me to own a bomb?

But you can own a bomb. They are classified as NFA destructive devices and must be registered and have their proper taxes paid.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:15 pm



Quoting IFEMaster (Reply 7):
How come I have the right to own a gun, but it's illegal for me to own a bomb?

Well, MD answered you but more importantly, let me say that I feel the same way about bombs. Who the hell are you going to stop if they want to build a bomb? Making it illegal is like making sexual acts illegal. How do you stop people who are determined to build something? Law abiding folks won't do it.....but they're not the ones you ought to be worried about.

Quoting ANother (Reply 9):
Possibly. For example your free speech freedom allows the swastika to be displayed, while in other countries that is a crime. I'm

You are correct. As much as I hate Illinois Nazis (and any other type...and I mean HATE) they ought to be free to espouse their vitriolic shit. I'll defend their right to voice their opinions. Because I want to exercise my rights at the same time. Because someday I may want to exercise my right to espouse an unpopular opinion.

Quoting ANother (Reply 9):
I'm not saying that is a good thing or a bad thing - but perhaps, yes, these things need to be looked at from time to time.

I agree and disagree. There's never a good time to eliminate someones basic freedoms unless they've demonstrated that they're incapable of not violating the rights of others.

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 10):
But you can own a bomb. They are classified as NFA destructive devices and must be registered and have their proper taxes paid.

To put a point on it. I dislike having to pay the taxes on this item...not that I have any.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:20 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 11):
To put a point on it. I dislike having to pay the taxes on this item...not that I have any.

More importantly I extreamly dislike the abuse of the NFA, especially how they keep classifying different types of shotguns as "destructive devices". Having to go through the extra paperwork, pay the extra taxes and live with the hassle of owning a NFA device is down right abusive of the government for a shotgun.
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 10:30 pm



Quoting Queso (Thread starter):
I would ask that the moderators PLEASE give users of this thread fair warning if they are getting close to the point of having the thread locked before just locking or shitcanning the thread

This has a chance of being an interesting and constructive thread.

But when anyone starts insulting anyone else for their opposing view point, even through veiled sarcasm, the thread will be pulled.

There is a pattern to these types of subjects:

1. Open with a controversial topic
2. Take a hard line approach with your viewpoint and refuse at ALL COST to consider any other position.
3. Expect that someone will disagree with you, so start taking shots at them before they've even seen the thread.
4. Put them in a defensive position so that their very first post derails the thread and it takes a mod 2 hours to clean up.

We get it. We know the drill.

Here's a great chance to avoid all of that.


PS: If you want to discuss moderating, please take it to site-related or an email.
 
Queso
Topic Author
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:23 pm



Quoting Diamond (Reply 13):
1. Open with a controversial topic
2. Take a hard line approach with your viewpoint and refuse at ALL COST to consider any other position.
3. Expect that someone will disagree with you, so start taking shots at them before they've even seen the thread.
4. Put them in a defensive position so that their very first post derails the thread and it takes a mod 2 hours to clean up.

And that's why I am on the sidelines for now.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 13):
PS: If you want to discuss moderating, please take it to site-related or an email.

Understood. The reason I said what I did in the threadstarter was so that everyone was on the same playing field and to clarify the boundaries.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 13):
We get it. We know the drill.

Here's a great chance to avoid all of that.

Thanks for your support. Hopefully everyone will do their best to make this idea work.
 
VonRichtofen
Posts: 4296
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2000 3:10 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:42 pm

One thing I've noticed. Many who are completely opposed to gun control quote the 2nd amendment often and of course they are right. However, often these people fully support an administration that has completely pissed all over the very constitution the 2nd amendment is written on in the name of security from an exaggerated threat. (read: patriot act, the new law that allows US citizens to be named "enemy combatants" at the authorities will, therefore eliminating their rights for a lawyer etc.).

So, protect the 2nd amendment, if that's gone then the government can basically do what it wants to anybody! (I'm not saying they would, but who knows what could happen).
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:54 pm

Gun control affects the law abiding citizen only. It doesn't make a affect criminals.


When seconds count, the police are minutes away, and even then, the police are under no obligation to protect you.
 
flymia
Posts: 7137
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:22 am



Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 5):
Quite simply there are no fair gun control laws. Gun control will only affect law abiding citizens. Criminals will always find ways to get weapons. This whole 'gun control' thing is BS crap.

Exactly!

I want to be able to protect myself. Its logic, if more law abiding citizens had guns than less crime would occur on innocent victims because criminals would be running into alot more people that will protect them selves. So criminals would have to be careful. If I could just strap a handgun to my waste and carry it openly I dont think anyone will try to mug or rob me. I must say I am very grateful to have the right to protect myself. Also I am grateful that I also live in the state in Florida which has CWP, castle law and the three step law which lets me keep a handgun in my car without any license or permits. Its nice to know that the law is on your side. If I feel my life is at stake or someone else I am with is at stake I should be able to protect the RIGHT TO LIVE. If law abiding citizens where not able to have personal fire arms criminals would still have them and that would just make other more vulnerable to the criminals. I am only 18 so I cant have CWP but I am allowed to carry a hand gun in my car. But once I am 21 I plan on getting a Florida CWP and using my rights to protect myself. I see it as an essential right that I can protect myself and my family.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:32 am



Quoting Diamond (Reply 13):
2. Take a hard line approach with your viewpoint and refuse at ALL COST to consider any other position.

I would posit that taking a hard line and defending your viewpoint doesn't mean that you aren't considering other views. By definition one has to consider the other view in order to effectively argue against it.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 13):
3. Expect that someone will disagree with you, so start taking shots at them before they've even seen the thread.

I'm glad we haven't seen any of that......although we were taking bets offline to see how long it took Diamond to post here!  Wink
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:33 am



Quoting Diamond (Reply 13):
But when anyone starts insulting anyone else for their opposing view point, even through veiled sarcasm, the thread will be pulled.

Wait, by a literal reading of this directive a person who is against the RKBA, or a person simply intent on mischief can roll into this thread, toss out some insults, and intentionally get it shut down?

That doesn't seem fair at all.
 
diamond
Posts: 3000
Joined: Sun Apr 11, 2004 8:01 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:05 am

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 18):
Wait, by a literal reading of this directive a person who is against the RKBA, or a person simply intent on mischief can roll into this thread, toss out some insults, and intentionally get it shut down?

That doesn't seem fair at all.

One final reminder that seems to be escaping you:

Quoting Diamond (Reply 13):
PS: If you want to discuss moderating, please take it to site-related or an email.



Quoting DL021 (Reply 18):
I'm glad we haven't seen any of that......although we were taking bets offline to see how long it took Diamond to post here!

Slow day in Atlanta?   Anyone who is betting in favor of my showing up to actively discuss guns is going to lose their respective bets. The subject affects me like Ambien. But I did show up to offer a little genuine guidance as the thread-starter requested.

[Edited 2007-12-20 18:30:15]
 
DC10extender
Posts: 573
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 6:09 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:39 am

All I can say is you can have my guns when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:06 am

Effective firearms control is hitting your target.

Quoting Diamond (Reply 20):
Slow day in Atlanta? Anyone who is betting in favor of my showing up to actively discuss guns is going to lose their respective bets. The subject affects me like Ambien. But I did show up to offer a little genuine guidance as the thread-starter requested.

Well appreciated......and still worth a bit of mockery! In the spirit of the season....

Quoting DC10extender (Reply 21):
All I can say is you can have my guns when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.

Thanks, Chuck Heston, jr!!!  Wink
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:26 am

Queso - kudos for initiating this discussion. Now that the Supreme Court has agreed to take head on the meaning of the Second Amendment, this is a timely thread.

Quoting VonRichtofen (Reply 15):
However, often these people fully support an administration that has completely pissed all over the very constitution the 2nd amendment is written on in the name of security from an exaggerated threat. (read: patriot act, the new law that allows US citizens to be named "enemy combatants" at the authorities will, therefore eliminating their rights for a lawyer etc.).

The problem with this comment is that the Patriot Act (an incredibly poor name) hasn't "pissed all over" the Constitution. As of this point, I believe that only one minor provision has been ruled unconstitutional by a federal court. Moreover, whether a another given law is or is not constitutional has no bearing on how we interpret a different provision of law or the Constitution. And in this thread, the issue is gun control laws, not the "grab-bag" of measures that is the PA.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 1):
Ownership restrictions, I believe, are unconstitutional and should not be on the table. Law abiding citizens are not the problem, and the law breakers will always have access.

Firearms restriction laws affect almost no one but the law abiding citizens who cause almost none of the problems.

 checkmark  Ownership restrictions are not the answer to reducing gun-related violence. Virginia has relatively liberal gun laws, in DC (for now) the laws are very restrictive. My chance of being a victim of gun-related violence in VA is low, but much higher in DC.

As Springbok747 notes:

Quoting Springbok747 (Reply 5):
We have very strict gun laws in this country, but people still get shot, and guess what, most of the people involved in these incidents (those doing the shooting and those getting shot) are gang members using illegal weapons.

Now, should we have a robust statutory and regulatory scheme in place designed to minimize the chance that guns will be used illegally? Sure. We used to have this great sign on I-395 near the Pentagon in Virginia, warning new arrivals to the Commonwealth that using a gun in a criminal manner automatically tagged on five years to whatever penalty otherwise applied.
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:32 am



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 2):
Time to scrap the whole damn mess, allow people who can pass a background check and basic skills demonstrations to own and carry whatever they want, and enforce harsh penalties for the use of a firearm in a crime.

I guess this is hard to argue with. Obviously, if guns were outright banned tomorrow (which I know, will NOT happen  Smile) you can't put a genie back in the bottle. I am all for a strict regulatory regime and harsher penalties for gun crimes. However, I will never be convinced that automatic weapons should be legal, I just don't see their necessity in any situation.
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:37 am

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 24):
will never be convinced that automatic weapons should be legal, I just don't see their necessity in any situation.

For the most part, give most people a full auto AK-47 and they probably couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.

[Edited 2007-12-21 03:03:36]
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:27 pm

"Photographer Jeff Dykehouse, whose non-profit business provides free portraits of terminally ill children and their families, was working in his shop when the sound of breaking glass interrupted his labor of love. The photographer grabbed a firearm and went to the front of the shop, where he found an intruder had broken through the glass door. According to police, Dykehouse announced that he was armed, but the intruder charged, forcing Dykehouse to shoot him. The intruder died at the scene."
The Grand Rapids Press, Ann Arbor, MI, 09 OCT 07
 
Queso
Topic Author
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:56 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 1):
Users could be licensed, as with automobiles or other dangerous items, and that I'd have zero problem with as long as the license fees were minimal.

Ownership restrictions, I believe, are unconstitutional and should not be on the table. Law abiding citizens are not the problem, and the law breakers will always have access.

"shall not be infringed". Does requiring all firearm owners to have a license constitute "infringement"?

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 2):
Time to scrap the whole damn mess, allow people who can pass a background check and basic skills demonstrations to own and carry whatever they want, and enforce harsh penalties for the use of a firearm in a crime.

Not a bad idea but the government often works on the "give 'em an inch and they'll take a mile" plan. Do we really want to have the government involved in the process any more than they already are?

Who are prospective firearms owners going to demonstrate their skills to? Hey, I could make a few bucks off of this, let's do it!

Quoting Airfoilsguy (Reply 4):
He we go again. I don't believe in guns. They are the devil!!

Flamebait!!! Flamebait!!!  rotfl   rotfl 

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
Queso - kudos for initiating this discussion.

Thank you, sir! I hope it works out and expands to other aspects of gun control / ownership.
 
miamiair
Posts: 4249
Joined: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:42 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:01 pm

"If gun laws in fact worked, the sponsors of this type of legislation should have no difficulty drawing upon long lists of examples of crime rates reduced by such legislation. That they cannot do so after a century and a half of trying--that they must sweep under the rug the southern attempts at gun control in the 1870-1910 period, the northeastern attempts in the 1920-1939 period, the attempts at both Federal and State levels in 1965-1976--establishes the repeated, complete and inevitable failure of gun laws to control serious crime." Senator Orrin Hatch, Chairman, Senate Judiciary Committee Subcommittee on the Constitution, 97th Cong., 2d Sess., The Right to Keep and Bear Arms, Committee Print I-IX, 1-23 (1982).
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:06 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
The problem with this comment is that the Patriot Act (an incredibly poor name) hasn't "pissed all over" the Constitution

I am seriously thinking of asking how the Patriot Act has reduced our civil liberties in any real and meaningful way, or if it's more of an inconvenience and rallying point for the political left. I think that it hasn't impacted any real existing firearms laws at all, so it's got no bearing here, and that it's not really taking anything away from us anywhere else. It's now due process, unless the USSC finds anything else wrong with it, which is also due process just as with any other law that is passed (all of which are passed as restrictions on our rights).

Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 24):
However, I will never be convinced that automatic weapons should be legal, I just don't see their necessity in any situation.

I understand that you don't see the need. But why should there be a needs based system to allow for ownership? Plenty of people own ATVs and don't need them. More people die in ATV accidents than firearms accidents. Millions own swimming pools, and they're the most dangerous personal item out there besides automobiles. The NFA was passed as a result of organized crime figures purchasing automatic weapons for illicit purposes. The moment it was passed they simply started purchasing them illegally while anyone who wished to own one legally was now at a loss of their rights to do so, all for a law that was ineffective in it's original purpose.

Uses for automatic weapons:
personal security
corporate security
target shooting
collecting
whatever the owner decides as long as it doesn't violate the civil rights of others


Now....should the use of said weapons be restricted to people who pass background investigations and operater competency tests? I'll go along with that. Just like automobiles. Should their ownership be limited...and subject to the caprice of local CLEO's who can refuse to sign the authorization for any reason? I think not. It's unconstitutional.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:09 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 29):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
The problem with this comment is that the Patriot Act (an incredibly poor name) hasn't "pissed all over" the Constitution

I am seriously thinking of asking how the Patriot Act has reduced our civil liberties in any real and meaningful way, or if it's more of an inconvenience and rallying point for the political left. I think that it hasn't impacted any real existing firearms laws at all, so it's got no bearing here, and that it's not really taking anything away from us anywhere else.

I'd pass on asking that question, at least on this thread, so as to keep the discussion centered on gun control.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:08 pm



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 24):
However, I will never be convinced that automatic weapons should be legal, I just don't see their necessity in any situation.

I understand peoples reluctant to allow for the ownership of automatic weapons. Even amongst the staunch pro-gun community there is a large group who realizes that automatic weapons are more of a concern than semi-automatic weapons and should therefore be subjected to more scrutiny.

It's the nature of that scrutiny that is the problem. Remember, as it stands, it is legal to own an automatic weapon. The 1934 NFA didn't outlaw ownership of automatic weapons, it just made it more restricted and taxable. Which wasn't too terrible of a deal for over fifty years until 1986 when a (litterally midnight) ammendment was added to the FOPA. The 1934 NFA created a registry of all privately owned automatic weapons in the United States. When ever a new weapon was purchased it was added to the registry. The 1986 ammendment closed the registry to new entries, preventing any new weapons from being added. It also had a rather predictable and tragic side effect. No old weapons could be added to the registry either. As WWII veterans started dying in increasing numbers towards the end of last century, many families found old war trophies they had never known about. Rare examples of WWII automatic weapons... which could never legally be owned because they weren't on the NFA registry. Tragically, these pieces of history are largely destroyed by the families that find them in order to avoid prosecution for owning an illegal firearm.

Back on track. The practical result of the 1986 FOPA ammendment hasn't been to remove automatic weapons from crime. Statistically, automatic weapons are very rarely used in crime... before and after the 1986 change. The only real result of the change has been to artificially limit the number of automatic weapons on the legal market (can't make new ones), thus causing their prices to artificially inflate to astronomical numbers. Before the 1986 ammendment a legal automatic AK-47 could be had for around $1K. Today, it's closer to $30K for a legal one. Or $250 in Mexico. Of course, that $30k AK-47 doesn't do anything that a $300 semi-automatic one can't do with the addition of a $2 shoe string. So, in essance, all the 1986 FOPA ammendment did was turn ownership of legal automatic weapons into a sport of rich people.

Quoting Queso (Reply 27):
Who are prospective firearms owners going to demonstrate their skills to? Hey, I could make a few bucks off of this, let's do it!

Says the state certified CHL instructor. You already do make a few bucks off of required skills demonstrations.  box 

I've said it before on this forum, and I say it again and again until I forget how to talk.. Training in my opion in the most important tool of proper gun control. I've even gone so far as to say that everyone should be required to be trained on the various types of firearms they intent to purchase. Rifles don't shoot like pistols and neither of them behave like a shotgun... much less an automatic weapon. Training should be of a practical manner, invovle actually fireing the weapon, and should be easily accessable to all persons no matter their economic status.

I would love nothing more than to see a national level ID that replaces the CHL and can be used to to replace background checks for firearms purchases that contains you basic information and your training accomplishments, and toss the rest of the garbage out. Got an ID that's got training for rifles, pistols and shotguns? You can walk into any store anywhere and purchase any of those weapons, no hassle, no fuss, end of story.
 
Queso
Topic Author
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:16 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 31):
I would love nothing more than to see a national level ID that replaces the CHL and can be used to to replace background checks for firearms purchases that contains you basic information and your training accomplishments, and toss the rest of the garbage out.

Haven't you seen Red Dawn?

The first thing that would happen in a SHTF scenario is the list of those people with the ID you're talking about would get a strong-arm visit from either the Feds or whoever got ahold of that list. And that's a bad thing. What about if a prospective employer was able to find out you were on that list and used it against you because they thought you were more prone to violence? Things like that have happened more than once right here in our own Great State, unfortunately.

On the surface and for day-to-day practicality I think that's a great idea but it could certainly have some Orwellian backlash to it.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:22 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 32):
Haven't you seen Red Dawn?

Which is why I'm always concerned about the physical existance of such a list.

Quoting Queso (Reply 32):
What about if a prospective employer was able to find out you were on that list and used it against you because they thought you were more prone to violence?

I think that such information should be handled as per how the TX CHL information is now handled. Strictly confidential.
 
User avatar
KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:31 pm



Quoting Miamiair (Reply 25):
For the most part, give most people a full auto AK-47 and they probably couldn't hit water if they fell out of a boat.

Not to mention how much it sucks to reload.

Quoting Queso (Reply 27):

"shall not be infringed". Does requiring all firearm owners to have a license constitute "infringement"?

Yes it does, but on the other hand, I'd see it as a reasonable compromise.

A. You're not allowed to own a gun. Period.
B. YOu can own any gun you want, but you need to have a permit for such gun.

I'd go for B in that case.

Quoting Queso (Reply 27):
Who are prospective firearms owners going to demonstrate their skills to? Hey, I could make a few bucks off of this, let's do it!

Haha, the irony  Silly

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 33):
I think that such information should be handled as per how the TX CHL information is now handled. Strictly confidential.

Until a newspaper gets a hold of it and publishes it.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:36 pm



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 34):
Not to mention how much it sucks to reload.

Rookie

The AK platform can be reloaded very quickly if you know the proper method. This months American Rifleman let everybody in on the secret.

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 34):
Until a newspaper gets a hold of it and publishes it.

I'd suggest that if this happens in a state with laws preventing the distribution of such information then all the persons on the list file a massive class action lawsuit againt the paper. Nothing is more sweet than standing up for your rights.
 
Queso
Topic Author
Posts: 3109
Joined: Sat Jul 08, 2006 12:28 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:36 pm

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 33):
I think that such information should be handled as per how the TX CHL information is now handled. Strictly confidential.

Yeah. As long as you're not an instructor.

[Edited 2007-12-21 08:37:16]
 
User avatar
KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:40 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 35):
Rookie

Hey!  Silly

Quoting MDorBust (Reply 35):
The AK platform can be reloaded very quickly if you know the proper method. This months American Rifleman let everybody in on the secret.

Yeah. Reminds me of back in Norway during an army drill. One guy got a little overexcited about a van full of terrorists coming up the hill , so he emptied 200 rounds of blanks from one of these:



His punishment, reload the entire thing  Smile It was fun to watch him sit there and reload
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 8:55 pm



Quoting Queso (Reply 27):
Does requiring all firearm owners to have a license constitute "infringement"?

Restriction to ownership or requirement to operate such equipment safely in a society where we've had to enact certain mutually agreed upon limits in order to live with a minimum of safety.

I would not want someone near me using an automatic (or really any other type) of weapon (including the 4 wheeled ones) that wasn't qualified to operate it and understood the laws concerning such.

That said.....the constitution is the constitution and I'm waiting with bated breath to see what the USSC has to say about the current case. It'll set the stage for the future of firearms ownership in the US.
 
D L X
Posts: 12725
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:51 pm

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
My chance of being a victim of gun-related violence in VA is low, but much higher in DC.

But, your chance of being a victim of gun-related violence in Richmond is higher than your chance in DC.

You can't compare a small entirely urban area to a vast state that is 90% rural.

There is a reason why DC enacted draconian gun laws -- it needed it.

I'm fine with people having guns, but you should have a license to possess a gun, just like you have to have a license to drive or BUY a car. I firmly believe that the Second Amendment does not give an individual the right to own the weapon of his choice, at least not in the absolute, just as the First Amendment does not give you the right to say whatever you want in the absolute. Let's be reasonable here -- guns are dangerous! And there are things that are much less dangerous that we regulate much closer, and without a peep of opposition.

[Edited 2007-12-21 14:02:47]
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Par

Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:20 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 31):
Training in my opion in the most important tool of proper gun control. I've even gone so far as to say that everyone should be required to be trained on the various types of firearms they intent to purchase. Rifles don't shoot like pistols and neither of them behave like a shotgun... much less an automatic weapon. Training should be of a practical manner, invovle actually fireing the weapon, and should be easily accessable to all persons no matter their economic status.

Absolutely spot-on. We require proficiency in driving as a prerequisite for driving a car - no reason why we shouldn't require the same for guns.

Quoting D L X (Reply 40):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
My chance of being a victim of gun-related violence in VA is low, but much higher in DC.

But, your chance of being a victim of gun-related violence in Richmond is higher than your chance in DC.

You can't compare a small entirely urban area to a vast state that is 90% rural.

I don't live in rural Virginia. I live in heavily urbanized northern Virginia, and we have a very low violent crime rate compared to the District and Montgomery and Prince Georges Country in Maryland.
 
ANCFlyer
Posts: 21391
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:44 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 40):
I live in heavily urbanized northern Virginia, and we have a very low violent crime rate compared to the District and Montgomery and Prince Georges Country in Maryland.

I will attest to that.

In the five years I spent at the Five Sided Funny Farm I can tell you watching the evening news made for great combat footage on the part of DC Metro and the Capital Police . . . . there's more  redflag  going on in The District in an hour than goes on in NOVA in a month . . .

NOVA is a kindergarten playground compared to DC . . . .
 
D L X
Posts: 12725
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:24 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 40):
I live in heavily urbanized northern Virginia

It's still the suburbs, and it's still MUCH wealthier than the areas in DC where the crimes are committed. Outside of Gary, Indiana, there aren't many suburbs with higher crime rates than their coordinate cities, and the reason is density and poverty.


The problem with this whole gun control morass is that what's good for one locale is not necessarily good for another locale. Federalism dictates that locales should be able to decide their gun laws for themselves, fitting their laws to what they feel is appropriate for their jurisdiction.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:39 pm



Quoting D L X (Reply 42):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 40):
I live in heavily urbanized northern Virginia

It's still the suburbs, and it's still MUCH wealthier than the areas in DC where the crimes are committed. Outside of Gary, Indiana, there aren't many suburbs with higher crime rates than their coordinate cities, and the reason is density and poverty.

what does wealth have to do with it? If you look at the violent crime statistics for Montgomery County, MD - a county that is demographically similiar to Fairfax County, VA - you will see a striking difference between the two locales. The one with more stringent gun laws has more violent crime.
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:00 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 43):
what does wealth have to do with it? If you look at the violent crime statistics for Montgomery County, MD - a county that is demographically similiar to Fairfax County, VA - you will see a striking difference between the two locales. The one with more stringent gun laws has more violent crime.

I don't know the breakdowns, but Montgomery County is a very large county with some urbanized pockets and much more "suburban" areas like Chevy Chase and Bethesda. I would be shocked if those locales had anywhere near the level of violent crime as DC, and I sure hope not, since I live in Montgomery County!  Smile

On an unrelated note, I was thinking, has it ever been argued using a strict constructionist view of the Constitution that automatic weapons are not protected by the 2nd Amendment, as the drafters had not contemplated automatic weapons at that time? I haven't followed 2nd Amendment jurisprudence very much, but it seems that you could make that argument.
 
User avatar
KaiGywer
Posts: 11183
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 9:59 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:13 pm



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 44):
Chevy Chase

There's actually a town named Chevy Chase??
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:29 pm



Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 45):
There's actually a town named Chevy Chase??

Haha yeah, it's a very blue blood community in MD across the border from Upper NW DC. A lot of politicians/politicos live up there, including USSC CJ John Roberts, and I think Chris Matthews from Hardball. I live about 10 minutes from it.

It came before Chevy Chase, the comedian  Smile
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:37 pm

The wife and I had a DGU (3rd party) last night in the drive through of a Jack in the Box less than a mile from our home.

While on the way home from finishing some last minute shopping for the family, we on a whim we decided to try one of Jack in the Boxs mint flavored milk shakes. When in line at the drive through, the car in front of us (pointy nose lumina mini-van) started to back up. I thought it was just someone who had changed their mind and didn't want to order, so I backed out of the way. Well, the car just kept on going and backed into a light pole. Well, I thought that a bit odd compared to the normal method of getting out of line. Then the vehicles driver side door opened, and the driver (African American female) fell out to the ground. Okay, now I'm thinking theres a medical problem, and I was about to get out and see if I could help, when the front seat passanger (African American male) crawls out of the driver side door and starts screaming and jumping around in a very agitated manner. He was screaming, "someone's gonna die tonight" over and over while litterally hopping up and down. Uh oh. I had my wife call 911 on my cell phone while I backed our car further away. While I'm watching, and my wife is on the phone with the 911 operator the agitated male is stripping off layers of clothing and the bewildered and confused looking female driver has gotten to her feet and is wandering around looking somewhat dazed. Then the guy does a wierd sideways bounce, has a handful of the drivers hair and plants a fist right in her face while still screaming his odd mantra. Not like trying to remove lint from her eye type contact. Real full out trying to push her nose out the back of her head type stuff. So I told my wife to give the 911 operator my description and to tell them that an armed citizen was interveening. I stepped out of our car, drew my weapon and shouted, "Stop, I have a gun." The guy stopped throwing punches and looked at me. I shouted for him to let go of the woman, then he bolted like a rabbit out of sight behind an unused car wash. I put my weapon back where it came from and went to help the female who was at this point just a pile on the ground. Police arrived a couple of minutes later, and EMTs shortly after. Last my wife and I heard before heading home (drinking mint flavored milkshakes while filling out witness statements), the woman was in the hospital and the bad guy had yet to be caught.

So next time someone asks me when I used a firearm to actually defend someone (as a civilian), I can say Friday.
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:46 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 47):
Last my wife and I heard before heading home (drinking mint flavored milkshakes while filling out witness statements), the woman was in the hospital and the bad guy had yet to be caught.

So next time someone asks me when I used a firearm to actually defend someone (as a civilian), I can say Friday.

Holy crap! Nice work MD. Hopefully they'll get that dude soon, was your wife freaked out about the whole thing? Any idea what happened between the guy and the girl to set the guy off? Wonder if it was drugs/alcohol? Glad that she will be OK and glad you're OK too.
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: The Ultimate Gun Control / 2nd Amd. Thread Part 1

Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:55 pm

My wife is a bit freaked out. She's a CHL holder herself and we've talked about and done training for real world situations, but I think this is the first time she's actually seen a violent crime right in front of her... and very close to our home. We talked about what happened for a while after we got home to help her digest it. It's kind of funny, because after a while we started mutually critiquing what we fell we could have done differently or better.

I suspect the victim and the suspect knew each other (being in the same car and all), and judging by his behavior I would think there were drugs involved too (most people don't strip off clothes on a fine December evening)... but if they catch him or not.. It's all up to the victim and her willingness to turn him in.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 7

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Braybuddy and 24 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos