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TACAA320
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 2:34 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 95):
"Most" is not "all".

i know that.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 75):

"Atheism" wasn't really defined until the Enlightenment, but many of the ancient Greeks were "atheists".

Once again. Which "Greeks" are you referring to? When I asked that, your answer was...

Quoting Mariner (Reply 82):
Of course, polytheism was the "majority religion"[sic]. But Socrates was accused of atheism, and people still debate Epicurus, who did not believe in any afterlife or a judgmental god or gods.

Epicurus: "When we exist death is not, and when death exists we are not."

Which philosophical school[s] [or "Greeks" as you said] in ancient Greece was[were] "atheist[s]" ?

Quoting Mariner (Reply 95):
since, in your first post in reply to me, you agreed with my statement.

Just partially.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
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mariner
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 5:43 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 100):
Just partially.

That's good enough for me.

For the rest I have given you links from both the BBC and the Catholic Encyclopedia, and you refute those sources.

I shrug.

mariner
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dl021
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:03 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 97):
To demand that everywhere only your own ideas of religion would have to prevail or be stepped around no matter what is strongly reminiscent of the inqisition. And - secularization be praised - inquisition is over in civilized societies. You might just get used to it.

Dude...it's Christmas...you lost the logic argument a while back...let it go and go eat some fruitcake or turkey or something.

Quoting UAL777 (Reply 96):
Christmas is a religious holiday, though others celebrate it even if they are atheist or whatever. I personally don't care; it brings families together.

Good point.....

Quoting Klaus (Reply 97):
Well, when in doubt go on the offensive. Your alliterative description of my feelings indicates a bit of hysteria on your part. I just called someone to task for wondering why people bring religion into a religious holiday.

You "called someone to task"? For what?

For being sarcastic to the point of giving offense while being illogical. I also later said I may have overreacted if I missed his irony. He told me that he wasn't being ironic, which led to the discussion. Where you showed your total lack of humor, sense of irony and ability to accept when you're wrong.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 97):
For the same reason other people decide to celebrate a religious holiday in spite of their own stated anti-religious feelings and feel the need to rationalize/justify their desire to share in the season by either cracking wise or attempting to diminish the faith of the religious.

It's all about making yourself feel better without caring if you are trampling on the feelings of others.

Way to go as a response to some light teasing...

Yeah.....kettle. At least I can accept that other folks have valid points, and you still can't show me where I was wrong. You're reduced to accusing me of taking a sledge to a tack instead of going out and visiting friends and family today. Go out and do something fun. I'm headed to see the wife's family in Hunstville so this is my last response here today.

Merry Christmas to all, and to all a Guten Nacht!!!!!
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TACAA320
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:20 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 101):

For the rest I have given you links from both the BBC and the Catholic Encyclopedia, and you refute those sources.

All well known since many time ago.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 101):
I shrug.

Expectable.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
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mariner
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 6:54 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 103):
All well known since many time ago.

That's right, that's why I gave you the links.

Both those sources - the BBC and the Catholic Encyclopedia - describe Epicurus as an atheist.

mariner
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Klaus
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 7:25 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 102):
At least I can accept that other folks have valid points, and you still can't show me where I was wrong.

There:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
It's all about making yourself feel better without caring if you are trampling on the feelings of others.

Waltzing into other people's threads, insulting them right away and accusing them of "trampling on your feelings" for merely viewing things differently than yourself which they are apparently not allowed to in your opinion.
 
TACAA320
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 9:52 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 104):
Both those sources - the BBC and the Catholic Encyclopedia - describe Epicurus as an atheist.



Quoting Mariner (Reply 82):
But Socrates was accused of atheism, and people still debate Epicurus, who did not believe in any afterlife or a judgmental god or gods.

" Epicurus was a Greek philosopher contemporary with Aristotle (300 B.C.E.), and his philosophic school was fairly influential for many years. Students of history may remember that Socrates was executed primarily for blasphemy against the Greek gods. How then did Epicurus avoid such a fate? Epicurus and his followers denied being atheos, and argued instead that the gods had no concern for human affairs and did not intervene in them. If that sounds like Enlightenment Deism, it should. That was just one of several similarities. Epicureans also argued that the world operated on predictable mechanistic principles, and they believed in Democritus’ atomic theory of physicality. Further, Epicurean notions of justice and ethics appear to be based on secular notions much resembling the “social contract theory,” which came to prominence much later with thinkers like Thomas Hobbes. The Epicureans avoided the scorn of the orthodox much the same way Jeffersonian-style Deists did, by not directly challenging the existence of gods, and by pointing out that the world did not need gods to explain the world.

With the rise of the Roman Empire, Epicureanism faded out of prominence and a truly atheos philosophy would not redevelop until the Enlightenment."

www.iowasecularist.org
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
OlegShv
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:27 pm

 
allstarflyer
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:41 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 105):
Waltzing into other people's threads, insulting them right away and accusing them of "trampling on your feelings" for merely viewing things differently than yourself which they are apparently not allowed to in your opinion.

But, Klaus . . . if you don't like that, then don't lead by example.  eyebrow 
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mariner
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:06 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 106):
The Epicureans avoided the scorn of the orthodox much the same way Jeffersonian-style Deists did, by not directly challenging the existence of gods, and by pointing out that the world did not need gods to explain the world.

Why are you telling me what - obviously - I already know and have said from the beginning:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 82):
and people still debate Epicurus

Provably, it is still a matter of debate. You are debating it now with the BBC and the Catholic Encyclopedia.

mariner
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TACAA320
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:20 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 109):
Provably, it is still a matter of debate. You are debating it now with the BBC and the Catholic Encyclopedia.

I will never ever do that. Just giving more evidence in my favour.
Specially against the second one, which I deeply admire.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 109):

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 106):
The Epicureans avoided the scorn of the orthodox much the same way Jeffersonian-style Deists did, by not directly challenging the existence of gods, and by pointing out that the world did not need gods to explain the world.

Why are you telling me what - obviously - I already know and have said from the beginning:

You said a pretty much different thing. Specifically that "many" Greeks were atheist, which is basically wrong.
BTW, I previously quoted that:

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 106):
Epicurus and his followers denied being atheos, and argued instead that the gods had no concern for human affairs and did not intervene in them. If that sounds like Enlightenment Deism, it should.

And that mark a big difference.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
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mariner
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:40 pm



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 110):
I will never ever do that.

Yet you are doing it.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 110):
Specially against the second one, which I deeply admire.

I surmised that many posts ago.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 110):
You said a pretty much different thing. Specifically that "many" Greeks were atheist, which is basically wrong.

Yet you agreed - or "partially agreed" - with the statement.

mariner
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TACAA320
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:50 pm



Quoting Mariner (Reply 111):
Yet you are doing it.

Prove it.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 111):
Yet you agreed - or "partially agreed" - with the statement.

But not with that specifically.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 111):
I surmised that many posts ago.

That's your opinion. Mine is obviously different.

BTW. Have you ever read something written by Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, any "Socratic" philosopher in general?  sarcastic 
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
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mariner
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:03 am

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 112):
Prove it.

Here you go:

I quoted the BBC:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 92):
"Most histories of atheism choose the Greek and Roman philosophers Epicurus, Democritus, and Lucretius as the first atheist writers.

TACAA320:

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 90):
But Epicurus was NOT an atheist! Nor his followers.

You should be telling the BBC, not me.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 112):
That's your opinion. Mine is obviously different.

Are you now saying you don't respect the Catholic Encyclopedia?

mariner

[Edited 2007-12-25 16:05:45]
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TACAA320
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 12:29 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 113):
Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 112):
Prove it.

Here you go:

I quoted the BBC:

Quoting Mariner (Reply 92):
"Most histories of atheism choose the Greek and Roman philosophers Epicurus, Democritus, and Lucretius as the first atheist writers.

TACAA320:

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 90):
But Epicurus was NOT an atheist! Nor his followers.

You should be telling the BBC, not me.

I'm talking to you not to the BBC.

I respect both [BBC and the Catholic Encyclopedia], but not necessarily share every single word since the first one is not infallible, and the second one is not an official document of the Roman Catholic Church.


"
Nor was Epicurus an atheist. His Roman admirer, the poet Lucretius (flourished 1st century BC), in his poem De rerum natura (On the Nature of Things), praised Epicurus enthusiastically as the liberator of humankind from all religious fears; Epicurus himself affirmed that this had been one of the aims of his philosophy. But although he taught that the gods are much too superior to trouble themselves with the affairs of mortals, he said---and, as his language clearly shows, sincerely believed---that it is important for human beings to look at the gods as perfect, since only in this way could humans approach perfection. It was only in Roman times that people began to misunderstand Epicureanism, holding it to be an atheistic philosophy justifying a dissolute life, so that a person could be called "a swine from the herd of Epicurus." Seneca, however, recognized the true nature of Epicureanism; in his Epistulae morales (Moral Letters) he deliberately interspersed maxims from Epicurus through his Stoic exhortations... "

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-8583/Western-philosoph [which is not infallible too].

You forget to answer my last question.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
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mariner
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:43 am



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 114):
You forget to answer my last question.

I didn't forget. It is completely irrelevant, but the short answer is "yes".

And since you have used personal put-downs in this discussion, here's the long answer.

I have a classical education. I have studied extensively in Greece and the Middle East with especial reference to Ancient Greece and the Hittite Empire, and the religions of both.

I am a publisher historian, in the US and many other countries, with one of my several works specialising in Ancient Greek gods and (secondarily) the fall of the Hittites.

That is as much information as I am prepared to give you in this public forum, and I suggest to you that this information does not change what is being discussed.

mariner
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TACAA320
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:10 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 115):
here's the long answer.

I have a classical education. I have studied extensively in Greece and the Middle East with especial reference to Ancient Greece and the Hittite Empire, and the religions of both.

I am a publisher historian, in the US and many other countries, with one of my several works specialising in Ancient Greek gods and (secondarily) the fall of the Hittites.

That is as much information as I am prepared to give you in this public forum, and I suggest to you that this information does not change what is being discussed.

Thanks a lot for your curriculum vitae, but I never asked for it.

You can be sure that "this information does not change what is being discussed."

I'm just a little confused since your profile says only "writer". Whatever it is, is not important at this time.

Even more confusing for me is your reiterate and insistent reference to Epicurus as an "atheist" [one of the ancient Greeks, among "many"] that you mentioned in a previous post, based only in two internet links [BTW, very respectable both], and not in a knowledge of a person like you who has a [quote]" classical education" [unquote] and who [quote]" have studied extensively in Greece and the Middle East with especial reference to Ancient Greece and the Hittite Empire, and the religions of both.

I am a publisher historian, in the US and many other countries, with one of my several works specialising in Ancient Greek gods and (secondarily) the fall of the Hittites."[unquote]

Mariner

I'm not questioning your classical education. I don't have to.

With all due respect, is not my business, is yours. I don't have a single interest on that.

Nevertheless, my last question has a reason. It is clear and straight to an specific point. The answer to an "apparent atheism" of "many" ancient Greeks, and specifically the ones you named [or quoted from BBC and Catholic Advent] as "atheist" is precisely in such books, myths, dialogs of the classical Greeks. The key point here is not only historical, but philosophical and theological.
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
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mariner
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:33 am



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 116):
is your reiterate and insistent reference to Epicurus as an "atheist"

I have never said that.

Once again - you have not read or have not understood what I wrote. I have never refered once to him as an atheist. I have said that other people have.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 116):
Thanks a lot for your curriculum vitae, but I never asked for it.

That isn't my CV, which is much more interesting that that. But you asked - twice - if I had read the classical writers. Why? That has nothing to do with this debate.

So I thought I'd let you know.

Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 116):
Nevertheless, my last question has a reason. It is clear and straight to an specific point. The answer to an "apparent atheism" of "many" ancient Greeks, and specifically the ones you named [or quoted from BBC and Catholic Advent] as "atheist" is precisely in such books, myths, dialogs of the classical Greeks. The key point here is not only historical, but hilosophical and theological.

(a) You have been given an answer, but you dismissed it.

(b) It is bizarre (to me) to say there were not atheists before the Enlightenment. The Sun Cult could be described - and the followers were - as atheists.

(c) This thread is not about history, philosophy or theology. And since you refuse to accept the answers you are given, I don't see a point to it. Christmas is over.

mariner
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TACAA320
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:41 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 117):
Christmas is over.

Just one clarification. According to Christianity, Christmas ends on January's 6th..

For the rest, I don't have any additional commentary [which must not be interpreted as an acceptance of your terms].
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
baroque
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:44 am



Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 118):
Quoting Mariner (Reply 117):
Christmas is over.

Just one clarification. According to Christianity, Christmas ends on January's 6th..

Surely not another argument looming over when the Greeks think Christmas ends?

Peace, please (pretty please) peace?  angel   angel 
 
TACAA320
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 1:58 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 119):
Surely not another argument looming over when the Greeks think Christmas ends?

Not related with "ancient Greeks" at all.

It's not over until January 6th. for sure.

Christmas "time" [not Christmas "day"] begins on December 25 and ends in January 6th. on Epiphany's day.

"...hence (reckoning an exact number of years to the Divine life) Christ's birthday would have fallen on 6 January...".

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05504c.htm

Then, once again, it's "not over" until such day !
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
TACAA320
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:30 pm

Quoting Mariner (Reply 117):


Quoting TACAA320 (Reply 116):
is your reiterate and insistent reference to Epicurus as an "atheist"

I have never said that.

Once again - you have not read or have not understood what I wrote. I have never refered[SIC] once to him as an atheist. I have said that other people have.

Re-read your post 82. [quoting you]"But Socrates was accused of atheism, and people still debate Epicurus, who did not believe in any afterlife or a judgmental god or gods."[unquote]

Quoting Mariner (Reply 117):

That isn't my CV, which is much more interesting that that[SIC]. But you asked - twice - if I had read the classical writers. Why? That has nothing to do with this debate.

I will never know that, since I'm not interested on that. But I give you the benefit of the doubt.

Quoting Mariner (Reply 117):

It is bizarre (to me) to say there were not atheists before the Enlightenment.

Just your personal opinion. And I respect that [but don't share it].

Quoting Mariner (Reply 117):
And since you refuse to accept the answers you are given,

Since when a person has to admit their own answers ? That is bizarre.
If somebody give an answer, the terms inserted in it are implicit accepted.

[Edited 2007-12-26 08:38:10]
'Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind'. Albert Einstein
 
dl021
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:25 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 105):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
It's all about making yourself feel better without caring if you are trampling on the feelings of others.

Waltzing into other people's threads, insulting them right away and accusing them of "trampling on your feelings" for merely viewing things differently than yourself which they are apparently not allowed to in your opinion.

Well, for starters you misquote me. I wasn't referring to my own feelings. Your inaccurate perspective leads you to use false premises to make an invalid point.

The original post I made pointed out that someone announced that bringing religion into Christmas ruined it. I'm wrong in this? I further pointed out that people tend to defend their actions (which seem hypocritical...the celebrating of a religious holiday) or rationalize them by changing the premise of the holiday to suit their own desires and needs. I finally offered a potential solution (which I rarely see you doing) and even said that they should do what they feel like doing but perhaps they could do it without feeling the need to hurt other folks feelings while doing it.

Any real issues there?
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Klaus
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 5:44 pm

Quoting DL021 (Reply 122):
Well, for starters you misquote me.

I've quoted you verbatim. Every reader can just scroll back to post #8 to see for him- or herself.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 122):
I finally offered a potential solution (which I rarely see you doing) and even said that they should do what they feel like doing but perhaps they could do it without feeling the need to hurt other folks feelings while doing it.

Your actual post speaks a completely different language:

Quoting DL021 (Reply 8):
For the same reason other people decide to celebrate a religious holiday in spite of their own stated anti-religious feelings and feel the need to rationalize/justify their desire to share in the season by either cracking wise or attempting to diminish the faith of the religious.

It's all about making yourself feel better without caring if you are trampling on the feelings of others.

Especially the last sentence is purely negative, and the claim that you were somehow wronged by the bad, bad atheists viewing things differently.

No doubt you're trying to repaint it in a less embarrassing light in retrospect, but people can simply read for themselves.

[Edit: typo]

[Edited 2007-12-26 09:44:40]
 
dl021
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 9:57 pm

Klausie-poo.....you are certainly determined. I'll give you that. I defended your intelligence on a different thread (perhaps a different forum, I don't remember) but threads like this where you let your personal feelings of resentment towards folks who prove you wrong make me wonder if I'm giving you too much credit.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 123):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 122):
Well, for starters you misquote me.

I've quoted you verbatim. Every reader can just scroll back to post #8 to see for him- or herself.

Well, if by verbatim you mean it includes you changing the words and tense then yes...you got me there!

Quoting Klaus (Reply 123):
Your actual post speaks a completely different language:

Thought it was English. Sorry. You placed me in the category of people offended. You ass-umed....and reaped the rewards. Congratulations.

Dude....can you not distinguish between reality and your own fantasy world? You do realize that you and perhaps two others reading this that agree with you....don't you?

D'oh! Of course you don't! Sorry.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 123):
Especially the last sentence is purely negative, and the claim that you were somehow wronged by the bad, bad atheists viewing things differently.

Where did I call atheists bad? Ask some in this thread with whom I've spoken via PM whether I've ever called them "bad".

Quoting Klaus (Reply 123):
No doubt you're trying to repaint it in a less embarrassing light in retrospect, but people can simply read for themselves.

Yeah....that's undoubtedly it. You're correct. On your planet...... you are correct.

Here on Earth, however....you aren't.

I wonder why the guy on who's post I commented and I came closer to agreement than you and I do?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Klaus
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:05 pm

I did not change anything when quoting you. People can easily check for themselves.

As for your attempts at getting personal: I'm not interested.
 
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mariner
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:44 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 119):
Peace, please (pretty please) peace?

Quite right, Baroque. This thread should not end in acrimony at this (suppoesdly) positive time of the year.

So - I had a terrific Christmas Day (the only day of the festival I recognise), surrounded by cheerful friends. I hope you had a good time, whatever your attitude to - or beliefs about - the festival.

I ate too much, but only drank a little, and at the end of the day I watched (by accident) a very interesting documentrary on the History Channel about the Tomb of Jesus - in Kashmir.

http://www.tombofjesus.com/2007/home.html

I love revisionist history.

And, since I don't know if we'll have contact again this week, this seems like a good time to wish you a Happy New Year.  Smile

mariner

ps: I loved your Spanish Inquistion post.
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dl021
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:52 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 125):
I did not change anything when quoting you. People can easily check for themselves.

As for your attempts at getting personal: I'm not interested.

Are you not reading the way you mislaid and misunderstood my words?

And you're already resorting to the "no need to get personal" deflections? Stop it.....

besides, Klausie-poo....you're so wrong here that I'm getting PMs from people all over the world telling me that you're being a BOOB!!!!

So stop it. Consider for a moment the following.

YOU ARE WRONG. Is it that difficult to accept?
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LASoctoberB6
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:02 pm

Well I hope y'all had a very good Chrismas (yes, I purposely mispelt Christmas, no one I know ever says the T..) regardless of what this here thread has turned out to be. And I hope y'all have a happy New Year as well.


 santahat   dollarsign   champagne 
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Klaus
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:06 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 127):
Consider for a moment the following.
YOU ARE WRONG. Is it that difficult to accept?

Not at all. Provided you've got evidence.

All of your and my posts here are open to be compared and checked by anyone.
 
OlegShv
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:33 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 127):

It looks like it is actually you who is spinning the words around. I understand that you got offended by what Braybuddy said about religion and Christmas. However, it is you who decided to read this thread that was intended for atheists, and you started bitching about it here. I believe you are wrong and Klaus is right. If you don't like atheism - don't read threads for atheists. You look like a preacher who got into a strip club and started bitching about all those people trampling on his morals. If you think you might be offended by the content, don't read it. Pretty simple.
 
dl021
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RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:39 am



Quoting OlegShv (Reply 130):
Quoting DL021 (Reply 127):


It looks like it is actually you who is spinning the words around

You're free to believe what you like, but I think you aren't reading carefully enough.

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 130):
However, it is you who decided to read this thread that was intended for atheists, and you started bitching about it here. I believe you are wrong and Klaus is right.

Nah, I just read something and remarked on a certain level of hypocrisy along with the polarizing and confused statement that described a religious holiday ruined by bringing religion into it.

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 130):
If you don't like atheism - don't read threads for atheists

Didn't say a word about disliking atheism. I simply remarked on the cognitive dissonance in the post, which further reflected a need to rationalize and justify a desire to celebrate a religious holiday by loudly proclaiming it's not about religion. It's ok to celebrate Christmas...and I said so..for anyone..... I just observed that it's rude to try and make the people who celebrate the religious part of it feel badly for it.

Quoting OlegShv (Reply 130):
You look like a preacher who got into a strip club and started bitching about all those people trampling on his morals. If you think you might be offended by the content, don't read it

I like strip bars. I tell people who don't like them to avoid them. I also would be offended if they put one next to a school or church.

But you seem to have the same issue Klausie does....and maybe it's a language issue. I don't think so, though because others get it. I wasn't saying I was offended. I'm not criticizing people for being atheistic. I'm simply pointing out a slight hypocrisy borne of a desire to rationalize illogical behaviour and the accompanying need to belittle those who feel differently.

Now....show me in quotes where I derided atheists for not believing in God.....or gods...

Show me where I said I was personally offended by the comments. I guess you could say I was offended....but it was by the slightly bullying behaviour more than anything else. After that it was Klausie and his legion of two or three that wanted to scream "Murder!!" when I commented on someone elses behaviour.

Stop being defensive here and take another look. Point out the comments I made where you feel I am in the wrong. Or not. Klaus tried it and refuses to see the truth, which he does often. Are you in the same boat?

Quoting Klaus (Reply 129):
Not at all. Provided you've got evidence.

DUde....if you're just going to read that the moon is made of green cheese every time I show you that I wrote it's made of cheddar then you're not going to be convinced. But it's ok. .. I'll keep trying.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:28 am



Quoting Mariner (Reply 126):
Quite right ........, This thread should not end in acrimony at this (supposedly) positive time of the year.

It is a bit as it would have been on Nov 11 1918 in the front lines if the news had not got back to the artillery that there was a cease fire.

As the shells are still passing over, perhaps I should quote a bit more of the Monty Python sketch:
http://people.csail.mit.edu/paulfitz/spanish/script.html
" Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Our chief weapon is surprise...surprise and fear...fear and surprise.... Our two weapons are fear and surprise...and ruthless efficiency.... Our *three* weapons are fear, surprise, and ruthless efficiency...and an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope.... Our *four*...no... *Amongst* our weapons.... Amongst our weaponry...are such elements as fear, surprise.... I'll come in again.

[The Inquisition exits]

.........
Ximinez: NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition! Amongst our weaponry are such diverse elements as: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope, and nice red uniforms - Oh damn!
[To Cardinal Biggles] I can't say it - you'll have to say it.
Biggles: What?
Ximinez: You'll have to say the bit about 'Our chief weapons are ...'
Biggles: [rather horrified]: I couldn't do that...

[Ximinez bundles the cardinals outside again]

........

Ximinez: Fear, surprise, and a most ruthless-- [controls himself with a supreme effort] Ooooh! Now, Cardinal -- the rack!

[Biggles produces a plastic-coated dish-drying rack. Ximinez looks at it and clenches his teeth in an effort not to lose control. He hums heavily to cover his anger]

.......

Ximinez: Now, old woman -- you are accused of heresy on three counts -- heresy by thought, heresy by word, heresy by deed, and heresy by action -- *four* counts. Do you confess?
Wilde: I don't understand what I'm accused of.
Ximinez: Ha! Then we'll make you understand! Biggles! Fetch...THE CUSHIONS!

[JARRING CHORD]

[Biggles holds out two ordinary modern household cushions]

Biggles: Here they are, lord.
Ximinez: Now, old lady -- you have one last chance. Confess the heinous sin of heresy, reject the works of the ungodly -- *two* last chances. And you shall be free -- *three* last chances. You have three last chances, the nature of which I have divulged in my previous utterance.
Wilde: I don't know what you're talking about.
Ximinez: Right! If that's the way you want it -- Cardinal! Poke her with the soft cushions!

[Biggles carries out this rather pathetic torture]

Ximinez: Confess! Confess! Confess!
Biggles: It doesn't seem to be hurting her, lord.
Ximinez: Have you got all the stuffing up one end?
Biggles: Yes, lord.
Ximinez [angrily hurling away the cushions]: Hm! She is made of harder stuff! Cardinal Fang! Fetch...THE COMFY CHAIR!"

Quoting LASOctoberB6 (Reply 128):
And I hope y'all have a happy New Year as well.

 checkmark  Indeed - as long as we do not have to discuss Gregorian calendars, or anything bearing on the definition of "New", "Year" or 'happy".
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:09 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 131):


Quoting Klaus,reply=129:
Not at all. Provided you've got evidence.

DUde....if you're just going to read that the moon is made of green cheese every time I show you that I wrote it's made of cheddar then you're not going to be convinced. But it's ok. .. I'll keep trying.

Again no evidence for me "misquoting" you, despite your claims to that effect, but more excuses and more personal attacks.

Your post #8 was quite clear. And your later ones just speak for themselves.
 
ORFflyer
Posts: 3142
Joined: Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:42 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 1:43 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 129):
All of your and my posts here are open to be compared and checked by anyone.

I read em - you lose.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 133):
And your later ones just speak for themselves.

All of them do, and he's owned you nine ways to Sunday. You are so far in left-field, you're out of the stadium. Give it up, and admit you are wrong.

Edit to add:

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO EVERYONE!!

[Edited 2007-12-27 05:44:01]
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 3:42 pm



Quoting ORFflyer (Reply 134):
I read em - you lose.

That begins to mean anything the moment there's actual evidence presented that I allegedly "misquoted" posts.
 
User avatar
Braybuddy
Posts: 6958
Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2004 8:14 pm

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 4:58 pm

Don'tcha just LOVE Christmas for bringing out the worst in people . . .
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 5:21 pm

Christmas means alot to many of my friends and family. My mother is a very serious Catholic. No lights on their house, just a manger in the front yard. To many of my friends and family it is a day to celebrate Christ and the other crap is just gravy.

Those on this thread who state that they don't know anyone who actually celebrates the holiday for Christ are trying to rationalize their disrespectful attitudes. They haven't looked very hard.

People should be able to celebrate Christmas for whatever they would like, but for MANY it is about Christ. To say that it is nothing more than a pagan holiday or an economic endeavor do not know the people that I do. I respect people's rights to say what they want and I would fight for that.

Just don't try to rationalize trying to shit over a holiday that has substantial meaning to hundreds of millions in this world. It is rather pathetic.

If you are an atheist, by all means, tell us what the holiday means to you. Just leave the condescension out.

Merry belated Christmas!
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:10 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 137):
To say that it is nothing more than a pagan holiday

Nobody said that and nobody will force you to celebrate it as such.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 137):
Just don't try to rationalize trying to shit over a holiday that has substantial meaning to hundreds of millions in this world. It is rather pathetic.



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 137):
If you are an atheist, by all means, tell us what the holiday means to you. Just leave the condescension out.

Aggressively attacking people who just happen to view it differently than you do is the whole problem. And apparently religious intolerance is alive and thriving in some quarters, as your and DL021's posts above demonstrate.

Happy festivities.
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:00 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 138):
Nobody said that and nobody will force you to celebrate it as such.

??? I never have stated that anyone has forced. I am very open minded. People could celebrate satan on Christmas for all I care. Turning your nose up at those who celebrate it for their religious beliefs is very characteristic of judgemental people complaining about how close-minded religion is. Going out of your way to explain how meaningless the holiday is forcing an issue. Speak your mind, but be respectful. How quickly you attack when I point out that your pedantic ramblings aren't the truth carved in stone as you mostly seem to believe.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 138):
And apparently religious intolerance is alive and thriving in some quarters, as your and DL021's posts above demonstrate.

Where is my intolerance? I said to speak your mind, just don't condescend what is very meaningful for alot of people. But yet again, if you don't get your way, you get mad.

[Edited 2007-12-27 12:06:19]
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:37 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 138):
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 137):
If you are an atheist, by all means, tell us what the holiday means to you. Just leave the condescension out.

Aggressively attacking people who just happen to view it differently than you do is the whole problem. And apparently religious intolerance is alive and thriving in some quarters, as your and DL021's posts above demonstrate.

????

Where's his intolerance?

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 139):
Where is my intolerance?

Welcome to Klausworld.

As far as Christmas bring out the worst in people...I think that, to be perfectly fair, Christmas isn't bringing anything different from Klaus than any other time. He's still in his own little artificial environment where he's immune to anything but his own logic.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:59 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 139):
Turning your nose up at those who celebrate it for their religious beliefs is very characteristic of judgemental people complaining about how close-minded religion is.

The criterion is whether one can let others be with the way they're celebrating - or not.

If you don't like the way I think about things we can talk about it - but automatically equating the existence of differing views and opinions with an infringement of your own rights is a very different thing.

This is a thread about how atheists perceive christmas. And both DL021 and you have stomped in here and bitterly complained how those atheist views of christmas are a horrible attack on you. Which they aren't. And which isn't your place to complain about since nobody has asked you to change your views nor the way you're celebrating yourself.

Tell us you feel differently and leave it at that if you think you must. And above all else, do not demand others to change their views, even if you think you cannot live with them in existence.

Quoting DL021 (Reply 140):
As far as Christmas bring out the worst in people...

So how's that evidence coming for the accusations you've made above? That would certainly be a change for the better.
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:16 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 141):

The criterion is whether one can let others be with the way they're celebrating - or not.

If you don't like the way I think about things we can talk about it - but automatically equating the existence of differing views and opinions with an infringement of your own rights is a very different thing.

This is a thread about how atheists perceive christmas.

No it wasn't. It is generally about Atheists and Christmas. I see nothing in the op about specific "perceptions of religion and christmas". You naturally have to turn it into that to fulfill your acrimonious and close-minded perception of religious people.

So I respectfully read the thread and it was interesting, until.......

it became a condescending criticism of christian beliefs of the holiday. I'm all for free speech, but I will call people out when they claim to be open minded but are nothing more than self-righteous and judgemental. They are claiming that they can celebrate christmas however they want and I agree! Then on the other hand they are judging how christians celebrate it. Stating that noone celebrates it for christ, it is only an economical holiday, and it is nothing more than a pagan holiday. I'm just calling BS. Quit complaining of how you are judged when you are twice as judgemental!

My statement was NOT judging how atheists spend christmas but judging those on this board who were judging how christians' spend it.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 141):
And both DL021 and you have stomped in here and bitterly complained how those atheist views of christmas are a horrible attack on you.

I never said that it was horrible to me. Show me where I said their beliefs were "horrible". I just want people to stop attacking other people's beliefs. That is what I attacked, not their beliefs. Read again ego-tyrant.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 141):
And above all else, do not demand others to change their views, even if you think you cannot live with them in existence.

Ahh. Now I see. You haven't actually read my posts. Again, where did I ask others to change their views? I just asked them to be respectful of other's.

Take a look again. And I only posted one post before you attacked me in typical fashion.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:30 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 142):
Take a look again. And I only posted one post before you attacked me in typical fashion.

That's what he does. He interprets things in his own way, that often doesn't reflect reality, and he follows up by casting aspersions and deflections that don't reinforce any particular logic. Such as the non-sequiter of his asking me for evidence in addition to the posts above. He probably doesn't even remember what evidence he's requesting, and he refuses to re-read the posts above in an evenhanded way. So he interprets my admonishment for people to be respectful of others as an attack on atheists and makes the false assumption that I'm some sort of fundamentalist christian. Where he draws that from I've no idea.

I'd have dropped this thread a while back, since the points have been made, but he won't let go and it's been fun needling him, but it's getting stupid. He won't admit he's wrong, and the three people who agree with him like what he says.

You didn't come into this thread on my side or anything, but it appears we're saying similar things, and Klaus dislikes that so he's attacking you with the same deaf, dumd and blind onslaught that he's used on me. Luckily for the forces of truth, justice and the American way I've resisted his attempts to wear me down with pedantic petulance and continued my presentation of facts and clear truths.

You must remember one thing when dealing with Klausie-poo....

I'm not always right, but Klaus is never wrong.....just ask him.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:37 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 138):
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 137):
To say that it is nothing more than a pagan holiday

Nobody said that and nobody will force you to celebrate it as such.

This is your BS that I am calling.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
Nonsense. What we know as "christmas" today is actually just a somewhat modified version of much, much older "heathen" solstice festivities (even the date is still almost exactly the same).



Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
And one with a long tradition with its origins clearly in pagan times. Of course christianity has historically adopted it for its own ends, but so can atheists today, without exerting any conformity pressure whatsoever. But that sentiment is apparently not shared by everyone on the other side, which is a pity, really.

So, my point is that millions of people around the world, including my dear mum, strongly believe that Christmas is the birth of christ. You don't and I respect that. Why go out of your way trying to discredit what other people believe though? You're a hypocrite. That is all.

Now I would ask you to please....

Quoting Klaus (Reply 141):
And above all else, do not demand others to change their views, even if you think you cannot live with them in existence.

Hypocrite.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:40 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 143):
That's what he does. He interprets things in his own way, that often doesn't reflect reality, and he follows up by casting aspersions and deflections that don't reinforce any particular logic. Such as the non-sequiter of his asking me for evidence in addition to the posts above.

You accused me of "misquoting" you in my verbatim quote of your post #8. That is the easiest accusation to prove in a forum which records all the previous posts.

That you've switched to personal provocations instead of producing that easy proof - or withdrawing your accusation - makes my point all by itself.

I'm aware that my insistence on proper argumentation may be inconvenient at times, but I think can live with that.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:07 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 145):
You accused me of "misquoting" you in my verbatim quote of your post #8. That is the easiest accusation to prove in a forum which records all the previous posts.

Pull that quote again. Let's break it down if we must. Again.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 145):
That you've switched to personal provocations instead of producing that easy proof - or withdrawing your accusation - makes my point all by itself.

Withdrawing nothing.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 145):
I'm aware that my insistence on proper argumentation may be inconvenient at times, but I think can live with that.

Your insistence on proper argument is a correct one. If only you'd adhere to that which you preach.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:13 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 142):


Quoting Klaus,reply=141:
This is a thread about how atheists perceive christmas.

No it wasn't. It is generally about Atheists and Christmas. I see nothing in the op about specific "perceptions of religion and christmas". You naturally have to turn it into that to fulfill your acrimonious and close-minded perception of religious people.

Let us check:

Quoting QANTASforever (Thread starter):
Merry Christmas Atheists!

Tis the season!

Let's crack open some champagne, decorate the christmas tree, take our kids to be terrified by santa, and sing Christmas carols written after 1950! We'll have a secular old time!

So, how shall we be justifying it to ourselves this year? Participating in an enjoyable mass cultural exercise? Tradition?

What's your excuse?

QFF

That is exactly the start of a thread by and for atheists to exchange their own views and celebration plans. That is, before DL021 and you had to trample into it and accused people of violating you by having views which you do not agree with.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 142):
So I respectfully read the thread and it was interesting, until.......

it became a condescending criticism of christian beliefs of the holiday.

It didn't.

The pagan roots of christmas are generally accepted among historians and anthropologists and are supported by all kinds of historical scriptures.

And excessive materialism and other developments are regularly criticized by clergy and even the pope himself.

Nobody has told anybody that celebrating christmas with christian rituals was somehow "wrong" or that anybody should stop doing it. Only if that would have been the case there could have been a basis for complaints from the religious camp.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 144):
This is your BS that I am calling.

Quoting Klaus,reply=12:
Nonsense. What we know as "christmas" today is actually just a somewhat modified version of much, much older "heathen" solstice festivities (even the date is still almost exactly the same).



Quoting Klaus (Reply 36):
And one with a long tradition with its origins clearly in pagan times. Of course christianity has historically adopted it for its own ends, but so can atheists today, without exerting any conformity pressure whatsoever. But that sentiment is apparently not shared by everyone on the other side, which is a pity, really.

So, my point is that millions of people around the world, including my dear mum, strongly believe that Christmas is the birth of christ. You don't and I respect that. Why go out of your way trying to discredit what other people believe though? You're a hypocrite. That is all.

Personal attacks, again. How christian.  Yeah sure

And you're evidently wrong, too. Nowhere in your quote did I "discredit what other people believe".

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 144):
Now I would ask you to please....

Quoting Klaus (Reply 141):
And above all else, do not demand others to change their views, even if you think you cannot live with them in existence.

Hypocrite.

Another personal attack.


As things stand, you two have come into this thread like the kind of guests who have not been invited, misinterpret any ongoing conversation, start picking fights and ruin the festivities for everyone.

You two have turned yourselves into poster children for religious intolerance and overbearing demands of conformance with your own religious views, quite in line with earlier times which are aptly called the dark ages.

Rarely is the case against religion made as convincingly as you two have managed to make it.

What an example of the christian christmas spirit!  crazy 
 
fumanchewd
Posts: 2878
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:43 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:36 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 147):
their own views and celebration plans.

Bingo! "and celebration plans". Not just

Quoting Klaus (Reply 141):
This is a thread about how atheists perceive christmas.

Klaus, man I'm done. I haven't tried to change any atheists minds on christmas. You claim to be open minded but fail to respect christians' views on christmas. You consistently mention why christmas isn't meaninful to christians and that somehow they are all celebrating under false pretenses. How wise and open minded of you!

Do you see the irony of how judgemental you are. That's all I was trying to get across. You insist on atheists being able to celebrate how they see fit all the while lauging and giving the finger to how christians celebrate.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 147):
You two have turned yourselves into poster children for religious intolerance and overbearing demands of conformance with your own religious views, quite in line with earlier times which are aptly called the dark ages.

Rarely is the case against religion made as convincingly as you two have managed to make it.

What an example of the christian christmas spirit!

You are so smart.  Yeah sure What is my "religious view"? I have never stated it on this site and you have no clue. Do not judge me as you judge every theist.

Hypocrite.
In the time of chimpanzees, I was a monkey...
 
Klaus
Posts: 21642
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Merry Christmas Atheists!

Fri Dec 28, 2007 1:42 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 148):
You consistently mention why christmas isn't meaninful to christians

Where?

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 148):
and that somehow they are all celebrating under false pretenses.

Where?

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 148):
You insist on atheists being able to celebrate how they see fit all the while lauging and giving the finger to how christians celebrate.

Where?

You seem to suffer from severe misinterpretations.

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