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airlinelover
Topic Author
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3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 12:12 pm

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14897687/detail.html

VAIL, Colo. -- An 8-year-old and his father are being sued by a skier who said the boy collided with him at Beaver Creek last winter.

Someone's looking to score some christmas cash..
 
PAHS200
Posts: 494
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 12:06 am

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 1:58 pm

this BS never ends. I'm 17 and have ran into people when sking and people ran into me, shit happens and I wouldn't blame a poor 8 year old for having an accident.

what strikes me is that this is from LAST WINTER

GET A LIFE, MR Pfahler
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:10 pm

Hey, if this guy admitted to grabbing the kid perhaps he should be arrested for assault on a minor.

As well as tarred and feathered for participating in a sport where accidents are well known to happen and you agree to participate in them merely by stepping into the lift, and then sueing a child for having said accident.

In the immortal words of a NASCAR racer who was being berated by another racer "It's half my fault....I agreed to race with him"
 
bagpiper
Posts: 1050
Joined: Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:24 pm

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:14 pm

How did the guy find out the kids name?? Its not like you are required by law to say your name, is it? And you can't just sue "the kid that crashed into me - I dunno his name".

If I were the kid I would have just walked away, and if they guy followed me, threatened to call the police for assault or stalking or something.

Granted, I'm not 8 - I'm sure the kid had to change his underwear after that.
 
airfoilsguy
Posts: 3485
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RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:03 pm



Quoting PAHS200 (Reply 1):
this BS never ends.

In my teenage years a friend of mine got sued for splashing someone with his jet ski. The most absurd thing about it was that he wasn't even at the lake at the time. He still had to pay for a lawyer though.
 
slider
Posts: 7791
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:34 pm

Read your lift ticket dumbass!!

ASSUMPTION OF RISK!!!


Does this not mean anything? The suit should be summarily dismissed as frivolous.
 
WellHung
Posts: 3299
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:50 pm

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:56 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 5):
Read your lift ticket dumbass!!

ASSUMPTION OF RISK!!!


Does this not mean anything? The suit should be summarily dismissed as frivolous.

Such statements are to protect the mountain operator, not other negligent skiers. Note that Beaver Creek (or whoever operates it) is not named as a defendant. This man claims he was injured due to someone's negligence. Just because it's a kid doesn't make his claim less valid, though it looks like he will have to sue the father, instead.

If some little punk took me out on the slopes and caused an injury requiring rehab and missed vacation time, I would try to recoup those costs, as well. This could be a good way for the father to teach his son about taking responsibility for his actions.
 
slider
Posts: 7791
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:30 pm



Quoting WellHung (Reply 6):
Such statements are to protect the mountain operator, not other negligent skiers.

Again, read the lift ticket. Almost all of them caution about hazards including natural and manmade as well as OTHER SKIERS. You cannot prove negligence in the actions of a minor child.

Quoting WellHung (Reply 6):
This could be a good way for the father to teach his son about taking responsibility for his actions.

I know you're off the wall half the time, but are serious about what you post? He's 6. I learned to ski when I was 3, but no matter how old you are, shit happens.

Quote:
Scott told Pfahler he was sorry and started to ski away. That's when Pfahler grabbed Scott’s legs, cursed at him and said he would sue him, according to Robb Swimm.

And mr. Pfahler is guilty of assault. How's that for a reversal of fortune?
 
MDorBust
Posts: 4914
Joined: Fri Sep 30, 2005 10:10 pm

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:34 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 7):
And mr. Pfahler is guilty of assault. How's that for a reversal of fortune?

Assault, that's hardly the begining of it. He detained the child against his will and without proper authority. That's false arrest in the least and kidnapping for an aggressive DA.

Whatever happened to the days when people just said sorry and went their own ways?
 
slider
Posts: 7791
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:45 pm



Quoting MDorBust (Reply 8):
Whatever happened to the days when people just said sorry and went their own ways?

Exactly.

And an adult, age 60, should know some modicum of patience and tolerance, especially for kids.
 
WellHung
Posts: 3299
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:50 pm

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:29 pm



Quoting Slider (Reply 7):
Again, read the lift ticket. Almost all of them caution about hazards including natural and manmade as well as OTHER SKIERS.

Yes, to protect the mountain operator from being sued. The above does not protect individuals from responsibility for injuries caused by their negligence, and this responsibility cannot be altered to suit your needs, no matter what the armchair lawyer inside you says.

Quoting Slider (Reply 7):
You cannot prove negligence in the actions of a minor child.

Link?

Quoting Slider (Reply 7):
I know you're off the wall half the time, but are serious about what you post? He's 6. I learned to ski when I was 3, but no matter how old you are, shit happens.

So why should Pfahler have to pay for someone else's fuck up?

Quoting Slider (Reply 7):
And mr. Pfahler is guilty of assault.

Please reference the court decision that found the above. As far as I can tell, charges were never even filed.
 
Mir
Posts: 19491
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:55 am

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:44 pm



Quoting WellHung (Reply 10):
So why should Pfahler have to pay for someone else's fuck up?

How do we even know that Pfahler was blameless in all of this?

-Mir
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7186
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Fri Dec 21, 2007 11:58 pm



Quoting DL021 (Reply 2):
Hey, if this guy admitted to grabbing the kid perhaps he should be arrested for assault on a minor.

Perhaps, but on the other hand the court will likely dismiss the charges that the 3rd grader is facing since you can not sue a minor.

Now, I really do not know the whole story so I can only assume that the victim is suing because he a) wants money to pay for damages that his insurance does not cover B) is being an ignorant person ( wants a few more bucks for retirement) instead of using his insurance.

If I am wrong, please correct me.

Hunter
 
aircatalonia
Posts: 644
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:50 pm

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:10 am

Unless the kid was going down at an unreasonable speed I don't think he (or his father) should be charged with anything.

I've ran into people and had people ran into me. Most people understand it's just an accident and nothing happens.
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7186
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:17 am



Quoting AirCatalonia (Reply 13):
Unless the kid was going down at an unreasonable speed I don't think he (or his father) should be charged with anything.

A simple apology should have been suffiecent.

Quoting AirCatalonia (Reply 13):

I've ran into people and had people ran into me. Most people understand it's just an accident and nothing happens.

Same here except I roller skate not ski. A simple " I am so sorry, please forgive me for the delay I may have caused."

Hunter
 
AF340
Posts: 2267
Joined: Tue Jul 24, 2007 7:57 am

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:44 am

Although the kid was probably being an idiot, he is 8. You take these risks when you attach that lift ticket to you zipper. What do you expect when skiing? I have been hit, but haven't hit someone else (although my brother has, funny story) you just accept it and move on. Mind you I live in Canada and we have free healthcare...  biggrin 


AF340 wave 
 
WellHung
Posts: 3299
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:50 pm

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:54 am



Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
How do we even know that Pfahler was blameless in all of this?

We don't, which I why I addressed it as his claim:

Quoting WellHung (Reply 6):
This man claims he was injured due to someone's negligence.

Probably should have read "So why should Pfahler have to pay if his injury was a result of someone else's fuck up?"

Quoting AirCatalonia (Reply 13):
Unless the kid was going down at an unreasonable speed

Speed is not relevant. If the child ran into Pfahler from behind while trying to pass him, he was skiing irresponsibly, regardless of speed. A skier ahead of you always has the right of way and it is the passing skier's responsibility to pass with enough room to avoid the skier below. These are well-accepted codes of conduct and posted at every ski resort I've been to. I even remember Mt. Snow printing the rules on their napkins. While the rules themselves are not legally binding, they can help determine who was at fault.

A simple tap on the boot from behind (which is what the father claims) can easily knock a skier off balance and cause a fall and resulting injury.

Quoting AirCatalonia (Reply 13):
I don't think he (or his father) should be charged with anything.

Technically, the father and son are not 'charged' with any criminal act. They are being sued in a civil proceeding for damages.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 14):
Quoting AirCatalonia (Reply 13):

I've ran into people and had people ran into me. Most people understand it's just an accident and nothing happens.

Same here except I roller skate not ski. A simple " I am so sorry, please forgive me for the delay I may have caused."

This is all fine and good if no injury results from the collision, which isn't the case here.
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7186
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:26 am

Wellhung,

Wouldn't insurance cover it?

Hunter
 
WellHung
Posts: 3299
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 8:50 pm

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:44 am



Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 17):
Wouldn't insurance cover it?

It depends if this man even has insurance. And even if he does, all the costs of physical therapy might not be covered. Even if most of the costs are reimbursed, there are still co-payments and limits and his insurance won't cover his lost vacation time (I imagine these are vacation days he was forced to take due to the injury and not the days his vacation was cut short) or whatever other expenses (travel, etc) he incurred due to the injury.
 
huskyaviation
Posts: 912
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 4:38 am

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:48 am

All of the states in which I've come across a child's negligence (NY, VA, NC) all have essentially the same standard: there is a rebuttable presumption that a child between the ages of 7 and 14 cannot be negligent. A plaintiff can get over that hurdle by proving the child's negligence by applying the test of a reasonable child of similar age, experience, and intelligence, and capable of understanding the dangers associated with the behavior. At least in Virginia, courts' application of that standard is very narrow, and very rarely will a child of that age be found liable other than in cases of gross or extreme negligence (I recall 1 case in particular, Barker v. Norfolk R.R. (1981) in which a child was found to be contributorily negligent when he was injured while playing on a slow-moving train, but that the exceptional case). From the article, it sure doesn't sound like gross negligence.

I don't know if the law is the same in Colorado, but I would expect something along those lines. Some states also cap the damages a parent can be liable for as a result of their child's negligence (in VA, I believe it is $5,000), so if it is similar in Colorado, this guy may be wasting his time if he expects to recover anything in the short term.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 17):
Wouldn't insurance cover it?

Insurance might cover it, but insurance companies get pretty cranky if they aren't able to pass that cost onto someone else.
 
IADCA
Posts: 2589
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 12:24 am

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:42 am

Quoting Slider (Reply 5):
Read your lift ticket dumbass!!

ASSUMPTION OF RISK!!!


Does this not mean anything? The suit should be summarily dismissed as frivolous.

That's why he can't sue the resort. The assumption of risk clause is meant to cut off the resort's liability, not protect other skiers from liability. The thing is, you don't need the contract clause to prove assumption of risk. You can still prove it through action even without any clause. And in a case like this (where the higher standard of a minor's negligence would apply), any set of circumstances enough to get it to the jury on duty and breach would probably be enough to get it outside any reasonable assumption of risk.

Quoting MCOflyer (Reply 12):
Perhaps, but on the other hand the court will likely dismiss the charges that the 3rd grader is facing since you can not sue a minor.

He's not facing any charges. It's a civil suit. Additionally, in many states adults can be held liable for the torts of their children, though as HuskyAviation pointed out, frequently damage caps apply. However, there is a way you could sue the father for his own action here: if the kid was skiing recklessly all over and creating a hazard, you could claim that the father breached a duty of care. There, you have no problem with the child standard and a smaller problem with assumption of risk.

What's weird about this case is that even if Colorado law doesn't have the rebuttable presumption of non-negligence, I just don't see any way at all you could prove the kid was negligent unless the facts are vastly different than what the article says. The only way you have a case is if the kid was skiing wildly all over the place or something. That makes me think there's a lot more going on here.

[Edited 2007-12-21 19:44:35]
 
MCOflyer
Posts: 7186
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 5:51 am

RE: 3rd Grader Named In Ski Crash Lawsuit..

Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:49 am



Quoting IADCA (Reply 20):
He's not facing any charges. It's a civil suit. Additionally, in many states adults can be held liable for the torts of their children, though as HuskyAviation pointed out, frequently damage caps apply. However, there is a way you could sue the father for his own action here: if the kid was skiing recklessly all over and creating a hazard, you could claim that the father breached a duty of care. There, you have no problem with the child standard and a smaller problem with assumption of risk.



Quoting HuskyAviation (Reply 19):

Insurance might cover it, but insurance companies get pretty cranky if they aren't able to pass that cost onto someone else.

I appreciate the thorough explanations.

Whatever happens, best of luck to the father and son and the guy suing. I remain neutral.

Hunter

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